patrick.net

Onvacation says

marcus says

Why is it that Trump supporters first tendency is to assume that the black guy that got killed pretty much deserved it ?

Nobody deserves to get killed for burglary. But it is stupid to charge at a man pointing a gun at you. If he had wrestled away the shotgun the other guy had a revolver ready to protect himself.

Equally stupid for pulling a gun out in the first place in this situation and approaching close enough to someone for the obviously unarmed man to be able to grab the barrel of your gun. People do stupid stuff in panic / flight or fight is an instinct.

marcus says

Tenpoundbass says

Why did Ahmaud Arbery, grab their gun

Oh, I don't know. If you're in the middle of a running meditative state and these guys pull in from of you and get out with guns drawn, what are you supposed to assume they are up to ? Trying to wrestle the rifle away from him might seem like a reasonable way to not get shot. OR who knows, maybe it was suicide by resisting ignorant Trump Cultists. But what the hell were they doing, pulling in from of him and getting out armed ?

Why do they have the right to pull their guns on the guy ?

Marcus, YOU are part of the problem. Purposely lying...so liberal of you.

Yes, jogging in the middle of a road in a meditative state, occasionally stopping to peer into construction sites like every jogger typically does on their daily run.

Then going around the passenger side of a truck, turning a sharp 90 degrees to the left, and trying to tackle a guy with a shotgun while throwing right hooks at his head.

Again, typical jogger behavior.

marcus says

Speaking of critical thinking, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a rather stunning predictive quality between being a Trump supporter and seeing this type of event in a certain way. Why is it that Trump supporters first tendency is to assume that the black guy that got killed pretty much deserved it ?

This thread contains lots of people taking shots MOSTLY at the ridiculousness of the media and the general public.


- The "he was just a jogger" media fabricated narrative, yet there's multiple videos showing he was casing the place and took off like a guilty criminal when confronted.
- He was not jogging in the video. His shorts and footwear choices made "jogger" yet even more questionable. Still, he MAY have been jogging before he became a trespasser / lurker / thief, but his activity prior matters little. The "he was just a jogger" narrative is just an attempt to terrorize black people into thinking he did nothing wrong, and that they too, are at risk of being hunted by whites for NO reason at all as they navigate their daily life. It's a lie.
- Media loops the most innocent looking 3 seconds of him "inspecting the construction zone" instead of showing the real 3 minutes.
- Media clips the video of the shooting encounter. Again, the choice in how they clipped sections of video stink of narrative manipulation.
- Media treats this whole thing like another BLM shooting encounter, and this enraged black people so much that influential black people start calling for black's to strap up against the white terrorists (again - terrorism strikes at your daily innocent activities, like jogging). Also, a black dude felt he should make more fake hate crimes ala Juicy Smooliet style by pretending to be a white supremacist terrorist posting to facebook. Thankfully he got caught, but media created him with their reckless anger+race baiting propaganda.
- You claim "there wasnt a break in". Duh. The door was open, and there's multiple videos + eyewitnesses showing the exact same man was inside the building, and he bolted and ran like a thief when confronted by the 2 men. Yes, it was the same "jogger".

Multiple people have expressed dissatisfaction that he got shot, and I see multiple mention's of people saying the 2 men should have stayed in the truck and not drawn their weapons like they did. But dude also shouldn't have attacked / reached for the gun. And, while I didn't post about it yet, I feel the same way - they shouldn't have drawn guns and gotten out of the truck, although pursuing him was certainly reasonable considering he was trespassing and then fled when confronted - he's a likely thief. But, attacking them and grabbing the gun is clearly the bigger mistake. Attempting to grab someones gun is an almost certain way to escalate to fatalities.

Honestly, you are the one jumping to conclusions congruent with your narrative. You did this when you assumed he was a jogger, despite all the evidence presented to the contrary by "the dumb biased trumpers".

BoomAndBustCycle says

unarmed man to be able to grab the barrel of your gun.

Where I grew up it's pretty stupid to try to grab the barrel of someones loaded gun pointed at you. You should expect to get shot if you try.

Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, or Chuck Norris could have pulled it off but the rest of us shouldn't attack a man pointing a gun at us.

I hope I never have to point a gun at somebody because it would be right before I aimed and pulled the trigger.

Citizen's Arrests are 100% legal according to Georgia Law, if you catch somebody in the middle of committing a crime. They saw Arbery casing houses, uh, visiting construction sites, which is a crime of trespassing.

In the uncut Truck video, you can see Arbery running TOWARDS the truck, then dodging to the other side, then quickly pivoting once he gets to the front of the vehicle to charge Younger McMichaels.

It wasn't like they cornered him. There's also a piece of something on the road in the beginning of the video that looks awfully like a hammer, not far from where Arbery begins to move towards the McMichaels.

www.youtube.com/embed/9WQiXdyDWxI

Another Video:

www.youtube.com/embed/tNwVuRJnvgc

A walking, not jogging, Arbery stops and looks both ways before going into a house, to make sure nobody sees him ask for a job. Neighbor on other side of the street notices and can be seen on the clip watching Arbery about 3-4 minutes later. Arbery notices the man watching and BOOKS IT from the front door and down the road.

However, later in the clip, the news records that probable Neighbor dialing 9/11 to report a potential break-in at 2:08, which is about 5 minutes before Arbery leaves. He may have gone into the house twice.

This neighbor may have the cell phone video that was talked about in the DA's letter.

:
When I was a kid went many times with friends or alone into homes that were under construction when the workers weren't there. Never took anything or vandalized. It was just interesting and fun. Sometimes we hung out for a while. Other times it was just checking it out briefly.

Hircus says

marcus says

Speaking of critical thinking, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a rather stunning predictive quality between being a Trump supporter and seeing this type of event in a certain way. Why is it that Trump supporters first tendency is to assume that the black guy that got killed pretty much deserved it ?

This thread contains lots of people taking shots MOSTLY at the ridiculousness of the media and the general public.


- The "he was just a jogger" media fabricated narrative, yet there's multiple videos showing he was casing the place and took off like a guilty criminal when confronted.
- He was not jogging in the video. His shorts and footwear choices made "jogger" yet even more questionable. Still, he MAY have been jogging before he became a trespasser / lurker / thief, but his activity prior matters little. The "he was just a jogger" narrative is just an attemp...

Thank you for taking the time to make such a great comment. 1 correction: what do you or the law consider "drawing" your weapon? That is an important question. A handgun is drawn when taking it out of its holster. A long gun is not.

Onvacation says

BoomAndBustCycle says

unarmed man to be able to grab the barrel of your gun.

Where I grew up it's pretty stupid to try to grab the barrel of someones loaded gun pointed at you. You should expect to get shot if you try.

Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, or Chuck Norris could have pulled it off but the rest of us shouldn't attack a man pointing a gun at us.

Can you show me where a gun was pointed at him please?

marcus says

:
When I was a kid went many times with friends or alone into homes that were under construction when the workers weren't there. Never took anything or vandalized. It was just interesting and fun. Sometimes we hung out for a while. Other times it was just checking it out briefly.

You're an admitted criminal then. Are you an advocate of crime?

marcus says

Speaking of critical thinking, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a rather stunning predictive quality between being a Trump supporter and seeing this type of event in a certain way.

NoCoupForYou says

Why did the DIVISIVE Atlanta Mayor assume it was the fault of Trump?

marcus says

Good one. Good job electing someone that could represent us all, and the issues that are important to us all, so well.

A good chunk of what you post here marcus is exactly what you do every day here in the quote above. You literally just did it, one comment removed in this exact thread and then you say the last quote.

Hircus' post is spot on. The way this event is being portrayed makes the critical thinkers look at the facts and evidence, and question the media narrative. Has nothing to do with race. More will come out. We've all messed around on construction sites as kids as you mention. I've also done it. I've also been stopped by neighbors for doing so. I've had a cop draw a gun on me trying to sneak beers to the beach in my sleeves. You know what I did? Complied.

Remember this guy was 25 years old. Unless he was mentally retarded, he knew he was trespassing on someone else's property. Should he die, no. He trespassed and proceed to attack someone that he had slim odds of overtaking. He gets the Darwin award for that. If I live in a predominantly white neighborhood (not sure if this was) and I see a black person lurking around my neighbors house and actually enter it (whether under construction or not), I'm going to call the cops, but confront him in the meantime. It's called being a good neighbor and noticing things are out of place. It's not racism or a hate crime. If they attack me I'll fight back with whatever means, which in Georgia means I can roll around with a loaded gun. It's not all that complicated.

Onvacation says

Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, or Chuck Norris

A snubnose beats jackie chan 100% of the time. Grabbing a gun is last resort behavior

WookieMan says

The way this event is being portrayed makes the critical thinkers look at the facts and evidence, and question the media narrative.

Its racist to question the narrative.

NoCoupForYou says

Citizen's Arrests are 100% legal according to Georgia Law, if you catch somebody in the middle of committing a crime. They saw Arbery casing houses, uh, visiting construction sites, which is a crime of trespassing.

Thought it was personal knowledge of a felony attempt, meaning may not be legal to restrain someone due to trespassing.

Hircus says

yet there's multiple videos showing he was casing the place and took off like a guilty criminal when confronted.

Please share. I have no idea what you're taking about. I've seen one still shot of the inside of a home under construction. By the way, in my book if that photo was real, I consider walking into a home that's under construction nothing like walking in to a home, but yes I know that it's private property.

Hircus says

Still, he MAY have been jogging before he became a trespasser / lurker / thief, but his activity prior matters little

Why ? I can imagine a long run, you stop to walk for a couple minutes, basically resting, then see a construction site and check it out. Maybe not wise when there are a bunch of paranoid assholes around, but not that big of a deal.

You people don't even realize, that you're the ones coming up with the narrative. I have no idea what he was doing. The only thing I know is that some guys blockaded him with guns drawn. Wtf ?

marcus says

When I was a kid went many times with friends or alone into homes that were under construction when the workers weren't there. Never took anything or vandalized. It was just interesting and fun. Sometimes we hung out for a while. Other times it was just checking it out briefly.

25 is a "Kid"?

marcus says

Please share. I have no idea what you're taking about. I've seen one still shot of the inside of a home under construction. By the way, in my book if that photo was real, I consider walking into a hone that's under construction nothing like walking in to a home, but yes I know that it's private property.

Sheesh, Marcus, there are two in the posts above.

https://patrick.net/post/1332095/?c=1669609

:
Not that fits that description at all.

I didn't say he was a kid. But I don't think that's criminal behavior. When I did it as a kid, it was in my neighborhood and the risk was zero. Who knows, maybe he was looking for a bathroom. Or water.

iWineHorror1 says

Can you show me where a gun was pointed at him please?

You can't shoot someone if the gun isn't pointed at someone.

Why do you suppose Arbery attacked an armed man?

marcus says

Why ? I can imagine a long run, you stop to walk for a couple minutes, basically resting, then see a construction site and check it out. Maybe not wise when there are a bunch of paranoid assholes around, but not that big of a deal.

You're seriously joking, right? You understand the cost of tools? On our developments in Chicago that were near edgy neighborhoods, we'd hire a company to put live aggressive German Shepards (trained of course) in homes/condos at night that were being built. In addition to alarms. We're talking $500-700/mo for these services before the place was more sealed up.

The cash value of time in loading and unloading tools at a job site you're going to be at for a month is expensive. You leave them there. You could easily lose a couple grand in the time this guy was in the house depending on the tools. I lost a sandblaster my boss borrowed during his rehab project in a "good" neighborhood in Chicago. Boom. $800 gone.

They weren't paranoid ass holes. They were likely just watching out for their neighbors property, which is what everyone should do. The outcome wasn't the greatest, but there was one person in this story that made that happen by their action of entering someone else's home, whether under construction or not. That's a moot point. Trespassing and the chance that high end tools could be snatch was enough to warrant the response. I actually think this one goes away the more I think about it. Not really sure what those two guys did wrong?

And this has nothing to do with Trump. Just the facts out there.

I'm trying to figure out what planet most of you Patnetters are from because on my planet it's pretty normal to walk through a house that is under construction and look around. My wife and I do it all the time in my neighborhood near downtown Orlando. Also, I've never seen any expensive tools lying around an unsecured construction site just the occasional screwdriver or putty knife. The guys that I know that work construction keep their tools locked in their truck storage compartments.

astronut97 says

it's pretty normal to walk through a house that is under construction and look around. My wife and I do it all the time in my neighborhood

Do you go to somebody else's neighborhood to "look around" at construction sites?

Onvacation says

Do you go to somebody else's neighborhood to "look around" at construction sites?

Well my neighborhood is over two miles square, so I can go a couple of miles in my neighborhood viewing construction. I routinely take a four mile morning brisk walk and have checked out new construction on the way. Arbey only lived two miles from the house that was under construction, so that's nothing distance wise if you are having a good run. I also ride my bike 30+ miles at a time multiple times a week and I've stopped to look at houses under construction in other neighborhoods at times too.

I used to jog twice a day when I was 17-19, and I never entered a building under construction.

I'm pretty sure Home Shell Jogging Tours isn't a think for 99.9% of the population.

Do you think a brokeass 20-something hoodlum with prior gun convictions, Straight Outta Locash, was looking to source a contractor for the 1/10 acre plot he brought?

Gimme a break, Charlie Brown.

astronut97 says

I'm trying to figure out what planet most of you Patnetters are from because on my planet it's pretty normal to walk through a house that is under construction and look around. My wife and I do it all the time in my neighborhood near downtown Orlando. Also, I've never seen any expensive tools lying around an unsecured construction site just the occasional screwdriver or putty knife. The guys that I know that work construction keep their tools locked in their truck storage compartments.

I don't know what stage this home was in construction or renovation, but it's SOP in IL, especially city, for the builder/owner to make sure the property is secure so the tradespeople can leave their tools on site. You'd lose an hour every day loading and unloading tools with certain trades. Time is money for everyone when building or renovating.

Yes, it's normal for kids to enter a vacant home that are under construction. I've never heard of an adult doing it with no contractors on site. It's trespassing at minimum and most definitely suspicious. White, black, brown, yellow, etc. The only time it's appropriate to even enter someone's yard is to grab a real estate flyer or to knock on the door to present yourself and ask a question if you don't know the owner. Otherwise, just stay on the public easement/sidewalk or the street. Zero reason to enter a random persons property EVER regardless of occupancy. You're only asking for negative outcomes, regardless of who you are.

With the ghetto paratrooper drops, we have had the pleasure of the obvious minority 'casers' who are not exactly subtle in the way they walk around sizing up opportunities.
Can't look directly at them, or they snarl, spit, and give you the prison yard stare. It's one of the routine pleasures of living even in the nice parts of Oakland, now grafted over.

NoCoupForYou says

Citizen's Arrests are 100% legal according to Georgia Law, if you catch somebody in the middle of committing a crime.

Yes Citizen's arrests are fine unless you botch it, and somebody dies.

What if someone walking or driving past also got some of those three shotgun blasts?

I think man slaughter charges should always be at least investigated in every homicide, where it is clear someone was not at home or on their own property or protecting themselves. If you're going to approach anyone fleeing your area with a gun, then you are the aggressor, all rights to claiming defense is gone. They were the aggressor, trying to defend after the fact. If you're going to play Charles Bronson, then you need to at least be bad ass enough to keep a grip on the situation at all time.
If you're not willing to knock a few teeth down the fleeing suspect's throat with the butt of the weapon, when he charges you for the shotgun. Then you probably should just leave it up to the Police to get caught up in another Race embroiled political snafu killing.
Because you never know when the fleeing suspect is going to chimp out and that's what you'll have to do.

Onvacation says

iWineHorror1 says

Can you show me where a gun was pointed at him please?

You can't shoot someone if the gun isn't pointed at someone.

Why do you suppose Arbery attacked an armed man?

From what I can see, the gun isn't pointed at him until he grabs it. Sooo, he pointed it at himself. What. An. Idiot.

Ultimately actions have consequences. Even if the dude was legit out for a run, his first action that set off a chain reaction was to trespass on someone else's property, which is a crime albeit a minor one and probably shouldn't result in loss of life. It was a completely unnecessary action/act though.

I liken it to a personal story that doesn't involve people dying or crimes. Just a thought exercise based on a real life incident.

My wife was baking some shit up with one of my sons. She had set a stick of butter out to let it soften. My son thought he was being helpful and moved it to the table they were going to be mixing on (lower to the ground). We did some other stuff in the meantime outside. One of my dogs was able to reach the butter on the table and ate the entire stick. Shortly after he found the one rug in our house on the main level and hurled up the butter. My other dog said I need to get in on this action and literally ate huge chunks out of the rug to get every last bit of butter, destroying the rug.

Who is at fault here? Why did the rug get destroyed? Was it my sons fault or the dogs? I know the answer but would be interested to see what others think as this has no political or race bias'. One wrong action can fuck up the rest of your life, especially illegal ones.

WookieMan says

Even if the dude was legit out for a run, his first action that set off a chain reaction was to trespass on someone else's property, which is a crime albeit a minor one and probably shouldn't result in loss of life.

The owner of the house had no problem with his being there.

WookieMan says

Who is at fault here

Always blame it on the dog.
WookieMan says

Why did the rug get destroyed?

See answer #1
WookieMan says

My other dog said I need to get in on this action

A talking dog? Put that dog in the movies, that dog should be a STAR! All mine can say is "roof" when I ask where her ball is.

elliemae says

The owner of the house had no problem with his being there.

Trespassing is trespassing though. If the owner didn't explicitly invite Ahmaud, then it's trespassing regardless of whether or not the owner wants/would press charges. Anytime you enter someone else's property, regardless of condition or open doors, there's always a risk. He got confronted by concerned neighbors and he made a bad decision, because he was likely planning something in the future and was worried he'd was caught. His reaction was not normal by any stretch.

You can argue the hillbilly's reaction was just as dumb, the problem is, it would have never happened if he just didn't enter a random house under construction. If people think they just gunned him down because he was black walking down the street, you've been spun. None of this happens if he was legit out for a walk or run.

Also, it was my sons fault. Rug would still be here today if he never had moved the butter. The dogs were the hillbilly shooters. Give them an opportunity and they'll take it.

If owner would have shot him, that is one thing. If a random other person shoots, then it becomes very different. Just call the damned police and/or owner, if you know him. If you do not know the owner, then how do you know that guy snooping about the house is a criminal and not owner's son-in-law?

In our neck of woods, it is OK to walk through house being built in your neighborhood. I would not do it in a place I am not familiar with, but in our block or neighboring ones I have done it myself.

WineHorror1 says

From what I can see, the gun isn't pointed at him until he grabs it. Sooo, he pointed it at himself. What. An. Idiot.

Agreed most botched endeavors are unplanned reactions from others.

In many places, entering construction sites has a long tradition of being met with violence. For concern over the tools & material, much less the property itself.

rd6B says

In our neck of woods, it is OK to walk through house being built in your neighborhood. I would not do it in a place I am not familiar with, but in our block or neighboring ones I have done it myself.

Sure you can do it, most builders/rehabbers would go ballistic by me if they had people walking through a construction site without permission. Construction workers are generally licensed, bonded and insured. A random citizen walks through and falls down stairs with no railing or a balcony area with no railing and dies or severely injures themselves, it's a massive lawsuit regardless of trespassing.

Had a builder show one of their homes under construction to a prospective buyer, with a broker. Woman/client broke her ankle. $700k later and increased insurance premiums and you can guess the builder and broker were not too thrilled. Ultimately it's up to the owner/builder to secure a property, but I'm kind of shocked about the "no big deal" attitude here from adults walking on construction sites that aren't their property. It's illegal and secondly a lot more dangerous than most people think. You have zero idea what has and hasn't been safely secured before workers left.

Now if there is a crew or owner on site, that's a different story. Clearly no one was there in this case.

WookieMan says

Construction workers are generally licensed, bonded and insured.

IL must have a different reality from TX
Construction workers are picked up under Highway 59 in Houston, where illegals congregate looking for work. Only a few qualified ones actually work for the builder.

OccasionalCortex says

Especially when we were kids.

Exactly, I admitted as much in an earlier comment. 25 is not a kid though. Kids shouldn't do it either as well, but that's harder to stop unless you're going to be a hover parent 24/7. Adults should know better.

rd6B says

IL must have a different reality from TX
the construction workers are picked up under Highway 59 in Houston, where illegals congregate looking for work. Only a few qualified ones actually work for the builder.

This happens in IL as well, but it's usually just day labor. Very few quality construction guys will keep those guys on if they're illegal. Whoever hires them still would generally be on the hook for any issues that happened on site.

If you've been building for 2+ years and haven't been sued, you're doing it wrong. lol. It's a very litigious business from defects to injuries. If I was building, and your aren't working on the house or the client, you ain't stepping foot in the place. Any builder that doesn't care about random trespassers is looking to go out of business from just one fall/death.

Relevant information has come to light:

Ex-detective charged in death of Ahmaud Arbery lost power to make arrests after skipping use-of-force training

The former police detective whose actions in the fatal shooting of Ahmaud Arbery in Georgia were defended as a citizen's arrest was stripped of his law enforcement certification and power to arrest a year before the deadly encounter, according to personnel records acquired by The Washington Post.

Gregory McMichael's certification was suspended in February 2019 after repeated failures to complete required training, according to documents from the Brunswick Judicial Circuit District Attorney's Office, including a warning in 2014 that McMichael had neglected to finish mandatory firearms and use-of-force courses.
...
...

A February 2019 memo signed by McMichael and other officials in the district attorney's office stated he "will not engage in any activity that would be construed as being law enforcement in nature."

"To that end, Mr. McMichael will not carry a firearm or badge, nor will he operate any vehicle in the motor pool outfitted with lights, siren or police radio equipment," the memo stated.



https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ex-detective-charged-in-death-of-Ahmaud-Arbery-15269309.php

LOL at arguing motives. Black guy going into strangers house wasn’t just “looking around”. Then somehow running from the scene not in his neighborhood, now he is a “jogger”. Then when confronted by two guys with guns he runs towards them and attacks guy holding a shotgun. Are we going to call every criminal that runs away a jogger now?
If the two guys with guns motive was just to kill the guy there would have never been a struggle the guy would have been shot before he even got close. They had the right to do a citizens arrest and they had the right to have a gun, wither it was a stupid idea or not.
The two guys are not what put everything in motion.
We all know if a white cop showed and got rushed by him, we would have had the same outcome except the officer would have had more legal protections.
Only thing I agree with anyone on is that the two guys were stupid for trying to stop a criminal.