patrick.net

Drugs should be decriminalized.

But there’s shouldn’t be any government welfare, hospitals shouldn’t have to take anyone that doesn’t have insurance, and cops should be able to arrest anyone who commits crimes.

Portland just became an even bigger hellscape.

FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

Drugs should be decriminalized.

But there’s shouldn’t be any government welfare, hospitals shouldn’t have to take anyone that doesn’t have insurance, and cops should be able to arrest anyone who commits crimes.

You will get your wish. When the American "PRI" is fully entrenched, addicts will be removed. See how the CCP dealt with the addition problem.

"Come for the riots! Stay for the cheap drugs!"

Oregon will be taking title for OD state.

So glad I passed on moving there five years ago. Already a serous drug and pedo/sex trafficing problem there, now it's going to blow up. Sad it is such a beautiful place it went downhill fast.

That state is on path of self destruction, sad really. It's like watching train wreck in slow motion.

FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

Drugs should be decriminalized.

Opium took down China and the Ottoman Empire.

It can take down the US too, which is probably the idea of legalizing it, or its modern equivalents like fentanyl.

Patrick says

It can take down the US too, which is probably the idea of legalizing it, or its modern equivalents like fentanyl.

Not sure anyone's experience with heroin (not using yourself). Fucker is a nasty fucker. Had two people I know die/OD a week and a half ago. Had a kid crawling around the house for two days over their dead bodies. I've experienced the addiction from people I know well beyond that story.

I don't know if decriminalization is good for that drug. It's a death spiral for anyone I know that uses. It's a matter of when, not if you die most the time.

Yeah I'm all for this. Laws don't stop people from doing drugs, what we need to do is educate our children on the dangers of drugs. Making drug offenses moot gives officers more time to investigate real crime.

epitaph says

Laws don't stop people from doing drugs

Yes and no. In some cases it's motivation to do it. You're breaking the rules/laws. Let's try some heroin.

In other situations, decriminalized, you may be more likely to try it because there are no consequences for using or possession.

I was a legalize it all guy for a while, but changed my tune after some stuff I've witnessed and been through. Heroin should stay illegal in my book. When you see a 38 year old woman you know that had all the opportunity and would be a millionaire, crash and burn from that drug, it's sad. Everyone has an opinion about addiction, but if you haven't experienced it, that opinion is not valid in my world.

WookieMan says

Had two people I know die/OD a week and a half ago. Had a kid crawling around the house for two days over their dead bodies. I've experienced the addiction from people I know well beyond that story.

That's horrifying.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure opiates should remain illegal. It's not a question of freedom. You're not really free to stop when your free will has been taken over by it.

Making drugs illegal just makes criminals out of addicts, makes their purchases more dangerous, the purity of their drugs more questionable, and the incentives for entrapment more numerous.

How the fuck are people still defending the War on Us, something even the central government admits is a failure.

I'm sorry for those of you who knew people that made bad choices, but they were THEIR choices. If you've ever been to a 12 step program, you'd know one of the most important parts of kicking addiction is admitting what you've done and taking personal responsibility. I know addiction, and I know family who have died from the War on Us. The war is MUCH more dangerous than the free choice, so I'll gladly take the latter.

Patrick says

Yeah, I'm pretty sure opiates should remain illegal. It's not a question of freedom. You're not really free to stop when your free will has been taken over by it.

Patrick, the war on drugs doesn't work. It's not really a war on drugs, it's a war on competition. Our government runs drugs, they don't keep it illegal because they care about the public, they keep it illegal so they can keep the price up and make more of a profit.

Look - why isn't Hunter Biden in jail for smoking crack and being a cokehead? Because they make money off from him using coke and crack. It's as simple as that.

Opiates is no different. I could have gotten opiates, when I broke 3 ribs. I was in such pain, I couldn't lie down literally. I had to sleep sitting on the couch, with a pile of clothes on my lap, that I rested my head on, for 2 weeks, before I could lie down without a very painful fit of coughing. You know why I didn't take pain killers? I've known heroin addicts - they're dead now, dead 30 years.

You just have to educate people as to how utterly dangerous some drugs are. Pot isn't dangerous, but heroin.. I'd have to be convinced my life expectancy was under 4 years to be on them.

Most drugs were legal at some point how well did that work out then? Whole countries have been devastated in the past. Some drugs should never be legalized, society as a whole ends up paying for stupidity.

Ahhh... You just make em 'safe'. Like food. Anyone making/selling must meet advertised specs for fear of lawsuit.

Then, the junkies can just extinguish themselves.

Someplace else.

Although given today's events 'Someplace else' may be codified into housing regulation: IN-UR-NEY-B0R-H00D.

I'm all for criminalizing distribution.

NuttBoxer says

How the fuck are people still defending the War on Us, something even the central government admits is a failure.

I don't dispute the war on drugs is dumb. Certain drugs need to be legal for sure and regulated. Trump looked the other way for sure on pot, but Republicans could have just been done with pot and likely gotten more votes Tuesday by removing it as a crime. There's enough evidence it's completely a mundane drug after states have been legalized for years. We've also all known this since we were kids.

I'm actually okay with shrooms and LSD. Those aren't going to kill you unless you aren't experienced with tripping and do something stupid by taking a big dose. Those cases are extremely rare and usually it's a physical decision that kills you and not the drug.

Drugs like heroin that are super addictive and can kill you in a single use are flat out bad and should stay illegal. Cocaine is an interesting one. If it was regulated it might be okay. Another high school friend of mine snorted some stuff from someone he didn't know where it came from and it was laced with other shit. He died.

A normally healthy person though, with responsible dosing should be fine on coke. Obviously the biggie is heart issues. The people I've known to use coke are kind of addicted, but can stop for months if they want. I liken it to taking shots with alcohol or binge drinking. Has danger, but you should be fine if you take breaks from it.

Heroin, opioids or prescription opioids are bad, bad, bad though. That's a rabbit hole you go down and most don't come back from unfortunately. Many won't die from it necessarily, but their lives will be altered forever. Reliant on drugs to mitigate pain is the reason I won't even pop an OTC Tylenol or Advil. I did that in high school for my knees and shin splints for track and now my knees are fucked up because I masked the pain. I think I've cleared a decade now without taking a pain reliever. I also like beer and those pills fuck your liver up and I'd rather have fun at least while damaging it.

Patrick says

That's horrifying.

Yeah, it's a pretty sad story. Not that it makes her more important or anything, but was a 3 sport, 11 varsity letter athlete. One shy of the max. Too short for my taste, but was pretty hot, nice rack. Went camping with her when I was 13-14 and would have tried to bang her at that age for sure (year older than me) but didn't happen.

At 37 myself and having a few deaths of younger people already around me, this one has made the least sense in perspective from where she came from and could have gone. And maybe that was the problem. Just expected and didn't want to work for it. She did get a law degree, but I think it was law school where heroin came into the picture down in FL. Struggled with it for years. Came back home to mom and dad to clean up recently and fell in with the wrong crowd as heroin users always do. Shitty drug that I'm sure is amazing while high, but one you rarely kick. It kicks you.

Patrick says

FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

Drugs should be decriminalized.

Opium took down China and the Ottoman Empire.

It can take down the US too, which is probably the idea of legalizing it, or its modern equivalents like fentanyl.

You know the old wisdoms. If you want to pull the country down, don't invade it, convince it to allow all the bad shit to be normal. Drugs, homosexuality, pedophilia, remove religion... make it an immoral place and it'll pull itself down faster than a nuclear bomb.

LOL but it's still a Federal Crime. The dip shit Liberals are going to keep pushing the envelope until Federal law makes Drug use a capital crime, punishable by death.

Tenpoundbass says

LOL but it's still a Federal Crime. The dip shit Liberals are going to keep pushing the envelope until Federal law makes Drug use a capital crime, punishable by death.

You mean like in China? Gee, the "left" wouldn't want to see the US become like China..

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

Drugs

One of the main components of The New Evil: Understanding the Emergence of Modern Violent Crime I commented on in another post. Authors call the year 1965 as the "fulcrum" over which our society tilted and drugs were at the core of virtually every violent crime from then on. Our society made the decision in the mid-60's during the still booming postwar economy, either consciously or subconsciously that, knowing all the problems that alcohol had historically caused--and yet it is still illegal to those under 18 or 21 depending on where you live--that we were rich enough to add a whole additional level of addictions to our society's problems. So 55 years later we have a permanently entrenched drug culture and an accompanying monolith of social services agencies that tries to keep the chaos and self-destruction manageable as much as possible as evidenced over and over by the terrible Re twins, Rehab and Relapse.

NuttBoxer says

Opiates is no different.

I disagree. Opiates are very different from most other drugs, directly fucking with the core of what makes you you.

Why do you do anything at all? It's because of the endogenous opioid system in your brain. You think you're in control, but every little thing you do is driven by some pleasure or pain. Opiates are their own motivation. Once you're really in it, no amount of free will will get you out of it.

Addictive drugs are the lesson that society and humanity never learn. It seems no amount of death or dysfunction teach any lessons.

Drugs are the ultimate 'dirty weapon' to use against targeted groups. Our own alphabets used them by doing the psyops research and dumping them into the politically rebellious communities of the 60's and 70's. Most of the original black panthers died with crack pipes in their hands on the streets.

I imagine the Chinese are singing sweet revenge by destroying American society with cheap and available narcotics. it's their gift for the Opium Wars of the past that enslaved the Chinese to narcotics. Tit for Tat.

Patrick says

FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

Drugs should be decriminalized.

Opium took down China and the Ottoman Empire.

It can take down the US too, which is probably the idea of legalizing it, or its modern equivalents like fentanyl.

I bet I know which sunny state Oregon send their hobo crackheads to once crisis really gets bad.

Fortwaynemobile says

Patrick says

FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

Drugs should be decriminalized.

Opium took down China and the Ottoman Empire.

It can take down the US too, which is probably the idea of legalizing it, or its modern equivalents like fentanyl.

I bet I know which sunny state Oregon send their hobo crackheads to once crisis really gets bad.

Hey Patrick - you might enjoy listening to this:

www.1EwaLys3Zak

That explains the economics of drug legalization among other things. Economics isn't just about money, it's about how people interact. Austrian economics is not taught today, but it's a true science, and there's a good explanation and example of relative consequences.

richwicks says

you might enjoy listening to this:

Bad 70's color, caused by lack of silver nitrate, one of the many commodities shortages of the 70's caused by Wage and Price Controls II that caused so many distortions in markets. At the time this was done, inflation was double digit with no end in sight. Like Friedman said, Carter had not sought his advice. He makes the point at 6:37 that at that time 40% of the income of working people was being taken by government--he wondered if they thought they were getting their money's worth.

Ceffer says

I imagine the Chinese are singing sweet revenge by destroying American society with cheap and available narcotics. it's their gift for the Opium Wars of the past that enslaved the Chinese to narcotics. Tit for Tat.

Well, that was the English. America is not England. We fought a revolution against them.

But sure, I can imagine that the Chinese would have no problem destroying America with opiates because it's The West in any case.

Patrick says

Once you're really in it, no amount of free will will get you out of it.

X 1,000. Anyone that gets out of the trap is frankly a miracle. And I know there are famous examples like Keith Richards. Most the time you have the cash to get rehab that works in the case of famous people, not always though.

Most "regular" rehab facilities are filled with court ordered rehab patients. They HAVE to be there or go to jail. Some show up high as a kite while others are trying to take it seriously so they they don't get thrown back in jail (daily outpatient). Court ordered inpatient is more strict, but at some point they shift you to outpatient as the final step. The look of a heroin addict and their behavior while high is pretty obvious to other addicts. When they see someone else high, it's immediate FOMO and at 5:30pm they're at their dealers house. Rise and repeat until it usually ends in death.

Crime is also a massive issue with heroin. Same with crack. You'll do almost anything to get the next high. I've met guys with $5k/mo habits. Was in court ordered rehab after a 2 year stint for stabbing a guy. Was sponsored by Vans shoe company as a skateboarder. He had twins with his addicted ex and she tried to sell them to him (he take full custody) for $10k. She was just gonna buy $10k of heroin.

I'm cool with legalizing a lot of drugs, but heroin is not something to play with. Odds of being a one and done (trying it, getting addicted and dying) are super high.

Patrick says

Well, that was the English. America is not England. We fought a revolution against them.

Actually, America was also involved in the Opium Wars: "The British had already discovered a great market in southern China for smuggled opium, and American traders soon also turned to opium to supplement their exports to China. Beyond the health problems related to opium addiction, the increasing opium trade with the Western powers meant that for the first time, China imported more goods than it exported."
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/dwe/82011.htm

WookieMan says

Crime is also a massive issue with heroin. Same with crack. You'll do almost anything to get the next high. I've met guys with $5k/mo habits.

Nutt Boxer be like: "Why didn't he use his will power to get off that shit? Weak!"

With respect to opiates,. I had a friend that got hooked because his doctor underestimated his weight. This was post surgery. He was a football player 6,7 275 lbs. He went to rehab and beat it but most don't. He had zero history of drug use and recognized the problem quickly.

I'm all for legalizing all drugs, but not without strings. One must acknowledge that being impaired and addicted removes one from any semblance of productive, ethical society.

Can't have licenses for driving or machinery if addicted, can't vote, must submit to birth control. Basically, they would have to submit to any number of social sequestrations contingent with the right to pursue their addictions. As long as they don't commit auxiliary crimes, they can have all the drugs, alcohol, nicotine etc. that they want any way they want.

I would allow for triage for legitimate recovery resources, and re-entry pending drug testing and sobriety contracts. I would even allow that the addicts can have their drugs, alcohol and nicotine paid for by the government as much as they wanted, along with sheltering and housing resources, as long as they agreed to the sequestration rules. There should also be restrictions on resuscitation and limiting medical resources for addicts. They get what they want, society gets what it wants.

Ceffer says

along with sheltering and housing resources, as long as they agreed to the sequestration rules.

It sounds good in theory, but by that time they're are so mentally ill they won't submit to any kind of rules or regulations regarding housing.

NDrLoR says

Ceffer says

along with sheltering and housing resources, as long as they agreed to the sequestration rules.

It sounds good in theory, but by that time they're are so mentally ill they won't submit to any kind of rules or regulations regarding housing.

There is a type of housing where you don't have an option to not submit to the rules and regulations. The one with bars on the windows. Which brings us full circle to the current situation. Anything else would be worse, not better.

My experience is that, contrary to the "one taste" trope, only roughly 10% of hard drug users become addicted. Same with alcohol.
The majority of people can recreate even with the hardest drugs without getting strung out. They are the "silent majority". They fuck around for a while and then lose interest.
Trouble is.....you never know if you are the 1 in 10.

Drug/alcohol addiction don't happen overnight, and there is always a spectrum of impairment that gets worse, not better.

The numbers are more like one in five drinkers become alcoholic eventually, one in three cocaine users become addicted eventually, crack cocaine and nicotine ring in at fully half of users become addicted. Narcotics are about one in two or three become addicted.I would imagine the figures for meth would be along the lines of cocaine. However, even though not all users become addicts, that is still an awful lot of people addicted over using populations. Some can be poly addicted, and some who are not susceptible to one substance can be susceptible to another.

40 percent of the population are nature's designated drivers, and wouldn't become addicted or even use or drink just because they don't like it. Even if they become 'medically' dependent, they just shake it off and stop using.

So, in a population of 350 million, with 40 percent immune to addiction, and if you figure the other 60 percent are using something at some point, then using a moving average of even one in four, you have over 50 million people moving along some early to late stage of addiction to something or another. You can probably figure at least 12 million of those are at an end stage where they only function to serve their addiction, and the other 38 million are impaired to a greater or lesser degree from addiction. You still have a lot of so called 'functioning' addicts who manage to scrape by even though impaired and a drag on their families and society.

Most of the sequestration policies would be geared toward the end stage group of 12 million. The others would just be 'catch me if you can' addicts.

Ceffer says

China imported more goods than it exported.

Lol, that's what it's still about, right down to the present day.

China's winning this time.