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Regarding a UBI


               
2021 Mar 5, 12:54pm   5,366 views  78 comments

by Zak   follow (0)  

"Some people will take the money and sit around and do nothing, but so what?"

I was thinking about this, and came up with the following. Tldr : eliminate income tax, and create a prosperity dividend instead of a UBI
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For UBI, the money doesn't magically come from nowhere. You have to take it from someone to give it to someone else. If you "print" it, then you take it from everyone equally, but it then gets spent and redistributed into the hands of business owners who benefit from the spending. This therefore hurts people who are not in the capitalist class through inflation. You can see this is true, because of our current minimum/living wage fight. If increasing GDP over time with inflation is supposed to help everyone, then the minimum wage shouldn't continue to be an issue, as more economic output distributed equally would tend to create additional higher paying jobs. Instead what we see is a reversion to a low paying service economy with more and more people bouncing off the minimum wage floor. At the same time, the wealth disparity is increasing, and the richest 1% have gained substantially more than the 99% below them over the previous 40 years. This can't be blamed on republicans, or democrats, or taxes, as taxes only take further from incomes, and don't ADD to people's incomes. Additionally, the trend has been consistent over both republican and democrat led presidencies and congresses.

So again, currently with a UBI, you will get inflation, which hurts savers, and benefits the 1%, as they get the money. So the bottom 10% will be marginally better off, the middle 89% will be markedly WORSE off, and the 1% will consolidate further wealth (as always). So what's the answer?

In my very humble opinion, a start to the answer is to eliminate the w-2 income tax, and instead gather that tax from income and wages paid by corporations. With the middle class no longer worried that every tax proposed will fiscally damage them, they will be willing to vote for social programs that come from tax revenues instead of from inflation. The tax code will be more fair, as corporations with actual lobbying power will fight amongst themselves to equalize taxes paid. Corporations will be the first to rat each other out from these double irish sandwich tax loops if it means they can lower their own tax burden, instead of jus relying on income taxes to fuel the government, and weasleing their way out of their fair share.

Then, we can do a UBI, but instead of a fixed base income, it can be a prosperity dividend. If the country does well, and GDP goes up, you get a bigger payout. If we have a bad year, your payout won't be as big, but we won't create inflation to erode your savings. Additionally, we eliminate 90% of the IRS having to focus on individual tax returns, and they can focus on corporate compliance. This also saves billions of dollars in paperwork and tax return costs each year.

A side benefit, all the government conspiracy theorist/haters will have a massive reduction in anti-government sentiment, as they are no longer under the gun from the IRS. And instead of people being against corporations (big AND small), we will be cheering for them to earn massive profits, and earn us a higher prosperity dividend.

Additionally, I could see the rich actually lobbying for HIGHER capital gains taxes, and lower wage taxes, as wage taxes would need to be paid every year, but capital gains can occur much less frequently.

What do you guys think?

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69   Patrick   2025 Sep 4, 8:42pm  

MolotovCocktail says


Vyrdism


Thanks, never heard of this before.


Vyrdism is an economic and social philosophy that advocates for maximal automation of labor through advanced technology, combined with worker ownership of businesses and limited government intervention in a free-market system. It envisions a society where machines (referred to as "technotarians") perform most labor, allowing humans to profit from automation while maintaining control over economic and political systems. The philosophy is attributed to a figure named John Henry Vyrd, though there is debate about whether this is a real person or a pseudonym for the philosophy’s originator.
70   Patrick   2025 Sep 4, 8:42pm  

WookieMan says

Bad on so many levels. Fat. Gaming machine. Tattoos that look awful. Bare feet.


Hey, don't forget the alcohol. Looks like she bought a drink with her UBI as well.
71   GreaterNYCDude   2025 Sep 4, 8:54pm  

MolotovCocktail says






$1,000,000 / ($8/hr) = 125,000 hrs.
Working 50 hrs / week = 2,500 weeks
Say working 50 weeks per year = 50 years

And that's before payroll deductions, which decreases take home by approx. 1/3.

(And yes I realize it's a joke but I felt compelled to do the math)

But minimum wage in NY is $15.50/hr upstate and a bit more down in the metro area.

And minimum wage jobs were meant to be entry points or termination points. Teenagers looking for their first job and Retirees who still want to keep busy. They were never intended to be careers or a "livable" wage.

UBI is a "good in theory, bad in practice". Look at how society changed once women entered the workforce, first by choice, then (often) by necessity.

Now give everyone (or a certain segment of the population) $x per child per month. How does that play out? Goods get even more expensive because you have more money chasing the same items. Look at what happened with the EV credit. Prices went up overnight by the amount of said credit.

Government intervention into free market economics rarely works out as intended. Student loans and the price of college being one of several examples.
72   FreeAmericanDOP   2025 Sep 4, 9:44pm  

The Romans built massive kilns and road networks to clay pits, then leased them out to small family independent contractors.

Standardized Roof Tiles and Amphorae were affordable and found as far away as Britain - in mid-level homes.

One Amphorae that must have been centuries old from Tarraco in what is today Catalonia near Barcelona, was buried with an Anglo-Saxon Chief in the Dark Ages as a prized possession. This would have been considered a "Meh" mass produced piece of ceramic. There's an entire artificial hill of broken potsherds outside Rome. It wouldn't even get a slave beaten for breaking them, they were so common.
73   AD   2025 Sep 4, 11:54pm  

.

should offer a universal incentive to produce and work

dangle a carrot in front of the donkey strategy

give credits to employers to hire and keep worker on the payroll

give bonuses to workers who remain on the job for at least 1 year as part of the universal incentive

.
74   Misc   2025 Sep 5, 2:34am  

AD says

.

should offer a universal incentive to produce and work

dangle a carrot in front of the donkey strategy

give credits to employers to hire and keep worker on the payroll

give bonuses to workers who remain on the job for at least 1 year as part of the universal incentive

.


We should not have the government do what an employer should do. Otherwise, taxpayers are subsidizing stockholders and corporate executives.
75   WookieMan   2025 Sep 5, 3:01am  

Misc says

AD says


.

should offer a universal incentive to produce and work

dangle a carrot in front of the donkey strategy

give credits to employers to hire and keep worker on the payroll

give bonuses to workers who remain on the job for at least 1 year as part of the universal incentive

.


We should not have the government do what an employer should do. Otherwise, taxpayers are subsidizing stockholders and corporate executives.

The government already does a bunch. Food stamps, section 8, free lunches for kids at school, tax returns for people that didn't pay a dime in federal or state taxes (negative tax payers), unemployment, etc. I have a former female friend that did this for 10 years and didn't have a job living in North Carolina. White trash. UBI is already here and has been.
76   AD   2025 Sep 5, 8:35pm  

NY Times reports the obvious. Top 10% account for 50% of consumer spending and own 90% of the stock market.

Keep an eye on quality of life and standard of living for the bottom 20% over the next 10 years.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Americans’ Most Valuable Asset Isn’t Stocks or a Home. It’s Social Security.
For the vast majority of people, the stream of promised retirement checks is worth more than anything else, our columnist says.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/05/business/social-security-wealth-benefits.html

.
77   FortWayneHatesRealtors   2025 Sep 5, 8:38pm  

Patrick says






It’s an Idea on how to pay illegals via tax dollars
78   HeadSet   2025 Sep 6, 2:58pm  

AD says

Americans’ Most Valuable Asset Isn’t Stocks or a Home. It’s Social Security.

I wonder if they include Medicare in that calculation.

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