patrick.net

Onvacation says

Translation: you don't know.

Is that true or a lie?

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/05/06/india-doctors-hiding-kiley-pkg-lead-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus-intl/

ehh.. not that bad really.. just runs the whole ICU out of oxygen... or is this fake news because CNN is the source..??

https://www.foxnews.com/world/sos-messages-panic-virus-breaks-indias-health-system

Zak says

Let's unpack your childish statement a bit tho, shall we?

Dispense with insults. There's no point in them. If you take issue with a conclusion, do that, alone and save time.

Zak says

Can I also let you be and since you've refused vaccination, our doctors get to refuse to treat you if you get sick? Why not? They're not hurting you, Covid is!

Why would a doctor do this? If they have the vaccine, the are immune to the disease - and if they don't have the vaccine they have the same level of trust in them that I do.

Again, provided the vaccination is effective, the only people are risk are the people who are unvaccinated.

Zak says

Can I refuse to let you into my business because i don't want you interacting with my other customers who may be unvaccinated? Yeah i sure can! free country after all!

My opinion is that you can refuse to allow me into your business for any reason at all, up to and including that I'm white, black, or asian. You're free to subvert your own business.

Zak says

but but, i thought employers weren't allowed to discriminate based on health status? uhh why not? we are going free country here and shit are we not? Its a private business, they aren't hurting you by refusing you service or employment, go do some other job, or get your food elsewhere.

Fine with me.

Zak says

The reality of your naive statement is that its just fucking self centered and ignores all aspects of the fact that you live amongst other people.

Again, I'm pointing out if the vaccination is effective, even if I'm a carrier, I'm not a threat to the vaccinated.

Provided it works.

You've not addressed that.

Zak says

I still support your right to make your own decisions, but I'll continue to tell you they are stupid and childish for the reasons you state.

They aren't stupid, and certainly not childish.

Childishness is having complete faith in an authority. In my opinion, you're mistaking your government for mommy and daddy. Your government is a criminal syndicate that ruthlessly exploits you. Adults recognize this, but there's few of them. I'm tired of living among children.

richwicks says

Again, I'm pointing out if the vaccination is effective, even if I'm a carrier, I'm not a threat to the vaccinated.

Provided it works.

You've not addressed that.

Nor did I say you were. The vaccine isn't recommended for children under 18. Why do you hate children ?

Zak says

richwicks says

Again, I'm pointing out if the vaccination is effective, even if I'm a carrier, I'm not a threat to the vaccinated.

Provided it works.

You've not addressed that.

Nor did I say you were. The vaccine isn't recommended for children under 18. Why do you hate children ?

I'm trying to have a serious conversation and expect you to do the same. Don't strawman me, or give me disingenuous thinking.

As far as I can (currently) see, there is no legitimate rationale to demand a person to get a vaccination - provided it's effective, and it's it's not effective, then there's no legitimate reason to even get the vaccination.

If the vaccine works, the unvaccinated aren't a threat to the vaccinated since they are immune.
If the vaccine doesn't work, there's no point in taking the vaccine at all.

Where's the error in my reasoning? I could be missing something, but this is something I've been asking for over a year without an answer. If I have an error in my logic and reasoning, please, point it out.

richwicks says

Dispense with insults. There's no point in them.

1) I didn't call you childish, i characterized your statement as childish, meaning it lacks the insight, empathy, and depth of understanding.
You personally may not be childish, but making statements like this would lead me to believe that is more likely to be the case.

2) A doctor might refuse to treat you because they have something better to do for instance. Maybe they feel like taking care of someone who doesn't behave like a blight on society. Maybe the hospital deems your case unprofitable. If it doesn't matter to you how you interact with society, why should it matter to any of the rest of us how we treat you?

3) What does the government have to do with this? Mommy and daddy? wtf? the cdc aggregating a bunch of numbers and me using that as one data source among many to determine that the virus is killing people, and the vaccine seems to be effective puts me in the boat of the government is my mommy and daddy? bwahahahahahahhaahhahaha


hahahahahahahahahahahha




hahahahhahahahahahahahahaahhaha


I won't harass you anymore.. loll you gave me a good enough laugh that


hehehehe lol omg I keep laughin...

go earn some more dollars.. have a nice life...

richwicks says

I'm trying to have a serious conversation and expect you to do the same.

How can I treat you seriously when you don't think past the end of your sentence?

"As far as I can (currently) see, there is no legitimate rationale to demand a person to get a vaccination"

And we don't "demand" that you get the vaccine. We just show you repeatedly that it is both stupid for yourself, and reckless with regards to several other segments of society for you to not do it. I'm just a guy on the internet, I can "demand" anything, but at the end of the day, I am just communicating with you. No words I type here can change anything other than your mind.

Zak says

A doctor might refuse to treat you because they have something better to do for instance. Maybe they feel like taking care of someone who doesn't behave like a blight on society.

In what what could I be a "blight on society" if I'm only harming people who are like minded like me?

Zak says

What does the government have to do with this? Mommy and daddy? wtf?

Are you serious?

I'm a year into a lockdown in California over a virus of which I have less than a 1% chance of dying from. I've seen 1/2 dozen businesses close because they weren't allowed to operate, as our government promised them over and over again - that in a few weeks they could open.

But there's no problem with me going to McDonald's or Walmart...

Zak says

I won't harass you anymore.. loll you gave me a good enough laugh that

You're not harassing me. I think you're just disingenuous. I don't see the point in discussion when one of the people is being dishonest about their thinking and opinions.

Zak says

hehehehe lol omg I keep laughin...

I doubt it. I think it's just a dig at me, as you cannot explain any error in my logic.

richwicks says

I'm a year into a lockdown in California over a virus of which I have less than a 1% chance of dying from.

Ok good. lets hit this.

1) You have a complaint
2) Your complaint is valid
3) I'm telling you it is wise to get the vaccine
4) My statement has no impact or ability to influence the thing you have a complaint about, only your personal situation with respect to the virus, and your ability to spread it though the rest of the unvaccinated (and a tiny portion of the vaccinated) population
5) Your conclusion is that the government is my mommy and daddy


Do you see any break from reality there?

Zak says

I'm telling you it is wise to get the vaccine

Why is this wise? I've hang glided, I skied for 30 years. I've biked over 20,000 miles in remote areas. I've gone hiking in completely unknown wilderness. I've taken risks all my life, to my benefit I believe.

The question is - how do I endanger others by NOT taking the vaccine - because as far as I can determine, I don't.

Let me make my own stupid decisions.

Zak says

Your conclusion is that the government is my mommy and daddy

No. I'm pointing out that the government has never taken care of its population, and never will. It exploits them, exclusively. In my opinion, and it is an opinion, if you trust the government to care for you, you're very foolish.

Zak says

Do you see any break from reality there?

No. From what you've written, you've drawn a conclusion without showing actual reasoning. You conclusion is based on a non-sequitur.

richwicks says

Let me make my own stupid decisions.

Where did I say you can't? All I'm telling you is you don't live in a bubble where your poor choices affect no one, and the statement that you do is childish.

If you want to stamp your feet and be childish.. so be it..

You came onto patnet though. Presumably you have some idea that it might be a good idea to take some responsibility in figuring out how the world works, and how you can be successful in it, despite the poor choices by people and governments around you. My suggestion is that you start by not being in the poor choice making camp.

Just like if someone were to say "I need a house, I SHOULD pay 1 million dollars right now because that's what the bank will loan me despite my income being only 10% of that."

Well.. yeah, I can't stop someone from doing it. But I can tell the that they are being childish.

And i should also be able to say hey don't take my tax money and give it to that guy in a bailout... but will you respect my right to not be taxed for that stupid shit? No you will not.

Oh you will say you don't believe it should be done.. but are you going to reach into your pocket and make me whole? No you're fucking not. You're going to tell me the government is my mommy and daddy.

The anti-vaxxers seem beholden to the fact that Covid has a low mortality rate for the younger population cohort.

Overall, the mortality rate is just slightly lower than that of the measles. Yet nobody on this site is proposing that people not get the measles vaccine. The same arguments for not getting the Covid vaccine can be made for not getting the measles vaccine.

Society in general does not want communicable diseases sweeping through the population. Hence, when there is a proven vaccine that has been determined to be safe by the experts. it is tough to argue against taking it.

Have the dangers of Covid been overhyped? ----- No Shit Does the government lie? ---- No Shit

Has every government in the world lied about millions dying from the disease? --- Doubtful

As to the fixation on the death rate, millions have been hospitalized for this disease, but haven't died. It is not something that anyone would want to contract.

Here's a little blurb not on death statistics but on hospitalization stats.

https://www.tfah.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/COVIDunderlyingconditions040320.pdf

Zak says

https://www.foxnews.com/world/sos-messages-panic-virus-breaks-indias-health-system

Fake News / propaganda.

Zak says

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/05/06/india-doctors-hiding-kiley-pkg-lead-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus-intl/

ehh.. not that bad really.. just runs the whole ICU out of oxygen... or is this fake news because CNN is the source..??

Fake news / propaganda. That, and if it's true, it says more about one places ability to maintain supplies, or shitty procurement processes.

CNN is Communist propaganda and very very gay.
https://patrick.net/post/1240230/2014-03-25-cnn-comes-out-as-gay?0#comments

Zak says

richwicks says

Let me make my own stupid decisions.

Where did I say you can't? All I'm telling you is you don't live in a bubble where your poor choices affect no one, and the statement that you do is childish.

I'm pointing out again, that my "stupid decisions" do not risk you. You should not demand other people be vaccinated.

Zak says

If you want to stamp your feet and be childish.. so be it..

I'm a bit recalcitrant than that. I simply will not comply.

Zak says

You came onto patnet though. Presumably you have some idea that it might be a good idea to take some responsibility in figuring out how the world works, and how you can be successful in it, despite the poor choices by people and governments around you. My suggestion is that you start by not being in the poor choice making camp.

Have you ever attempted to be part of a gestalt? I have. I take complete responsibility for myself. You can consider my choices poor ones, I don't care.

Zak says

Just like if someone were to say "I need a house, I SHOULD pay 1 million dollars right now because that's what the bank will loan me despite my income being only 10% of that."

Well.. yeah, I can't stop someone from doing it. But I can tell the that they are being childish.

I'd argue they are driving the rest of the population into poverty and slavery, but I won't stop them.

Zak says

And i should also be able to say hey don't take my tax money and give it to that guy in a bailout... but will you respect my right to not be taxed for that stupid shit? No you will not.

I'd argue against taxation for you. Nobody should be supported by taxation in my opinion. That includes politicians, the military, and educators.

Zak says

Oh you will say you don't believe it should be done.. but are you going to reach into your pocket and make me whole? No you're fucking not. You're going to tell me the government is my mommy and daddy.

I believe your taxes should be nearly non existent.

Taxation is slavery. Some people are exempt from it, they are our owners.

Misc says

Yet nobody on this site is proposing that people not get the measles vaccine. The same arguments for not getting the Covid vaccine can be made for not getting the measles vaccine.

Not about an argument. It's about a rushed through vaccine that we have zero clue of long term effects.

Asbestos was all the rage and we still are dealing with it in homes and businesses. How about them led pipes and paint? We got that wrong for decades and probably killed or disable probably 10's of millions of people from two mundane products that were thought to be safe. Not even a medication which we've currently got FDA approved ones killing people on a daily basis.

I'm talking about an injection that could be a slow killer via cancer or other conditions. Not a person commenting here or in the world can guarantee no long term consequences. ZERO. So for that reason I'm out and all this debating back and forth is just silliness.

I won't bash anyone that's gotten it. I frankly just fear for them because some may get cancer in 5 years and have no clue if it was from this vaccine. Or from the above products I mention that the government let go for decades...

I also don't necessarily think it's a conspiracy. It's just government inefficiency with data with a topping of media spin to freak everyone out. I've known a lot of people over the years. I've only known of two deadly heart attacks, the number 1 killer of people. Yes it's more time for the heart attack, but I still don't know anyone that died of covid.

I hope the billions going to big pharma for this end up getting pumped into research for real deadly conditions.... lol..... did I just type that?

*Edit - Forgot the measles part. We know 100% that vaccine is safe at this point and works. My kids have taken it. The whole family has had it at some point. The problem with pushing THIS vaccine is you're going to make a bunch of anti-vaxxers out of it (not you specifically Misc.) We need to let people soak in the information and give it time. Most people don't get the flu shot and that's "recommended" as well.

Zak says

Can I also let you be and since you've refused vaccination, our doctors get to refuse to treat you if you get sick? Why not? They're not hurting you, Covid is!

It's not a vaccine. It's a fucking experimental biologic agent.

And it's tyranny. Your "Team" stole the fucking election and if we don't stop them our little constitutional experiment is over.

So fuck all of the supporters of tyranny and forced injection of the experimental biologic agent that say things like.Zak says

the government is my mommy and daddy

Fuck them.

Zak says

Onvacation says

Translation: you don't know.

Is that true or a lie?

True. Or do you think you do know?

Most ignorant people don't realize they are.

But I think you know exactly how you're twisting the truth.

But who knows, you might be sincerely ignorant.

richwicks says

Childishness is having complete faith in an authority. In my opinion, you're mistaking your government for mommy and daddy. Your government is a criminal syndicate that ruthlessly exploits you. Adults recognize this, but there's few of them. I'm tired of living among children.

Yep.

Scared children.

Zak says

The vaccine isn't recommended for children under 18. Why do you hate children ?

And yet they are forcing 16 year olds to take the jab if they want to play sports.

Why do you hate children?

richwicks says

If the vaccine works, the unvaccinated aren't a threat to the vaccinated since they are immune.
If the vaccine doesn't work, there's no point in taking the vaccine at all.

Where's the error in my reasoning?

Many people are logic challenged, or they let their emotions take over.

Zak says

bwahahahahahahhaahhahaha


hahahahahahahahahahahha




hahahahhahahahahahahahahaahhaha

Now you're just being a troll.

richwicks says

You're not harassing me. I think you're just disingenuous. I don't see the point in discussion when one of the people is being dishonest about their thinking and opinions.

Zak says

hehehehe lol omg I keep laughin...

I doubt it. I think it's just a dig at me, as you cannot explain any error in my logic.

Bottom line.

Before all that covid shit the common narrative wrt vaccination was that everybody who can be vaccinated against some disease needs to do it in order to protect these who can't be vaccinated for some medical reason. It is completely gone now. Instead they just scream their heads off: "get the jab or we'll punish you! FBI! Litigation!". Weird, huh?

Onvacation says

richwicks says

If the vaccine works, the unvaccinated aren't a threat to the vaccinated since they are immune.
If the vaccine doesn't work, there's no point in taking the vaccine at all.

Where's the error in my reasoning?

Many people are logic challenged, or they let their emotions take over.

The number of ICU beds that are available is relatively small. Most of these beds are taken by people with other medical problems. The death rates between Covid and the measles are roughly the same, but the same reason we don't want to see measles go through our populace we'd prefer not to see massive amounts of Covid cases.. If there were a substantial number of Covid cases requiring hospitalization, it could easily overwhelm the limited number of ICU beds available.

Having large numbers of unvaccinated members of society poses risks to the medical infrastructure.

They did the lockdowns (whether truly needed or not) to flatten the curve so our medical infrastructure wouldn't get overwhelmed. By not being vaccinated you could add to a spike in cases that would cause harm to others by having medical care denied to them.

richwicks says

I'm a year into a lockdown in California over a virus of which I have less than a 1% chance of dying from.

More like a quarter of that, .26%, unless you are living in a Nursing Facility.
And even less than that if you have some modest degree of health.

Misc says

The same arguments for not getting the Covid vaccine can be made for not getting the measles vaccine.

No. The measles vaccine is a tried and proven VACCINE! The experimental biologic agent is a experimental biologic agent and trials are ongoing.

See the difference?

WookieMan says

Asbestos was all the rage and we still are dealing with it in homes and businesses. How about them led pipes and paint? We got that wrong for decades and probably killed or disable probably 10's of millions of people from two mundane products that were thought to be safe. Not even a medication which we've currently got FDA approved ones killing people on a daily basis.

I would add sugars and high Omega 6 vegetable oils to that. An industry influenced government "Food Pyramid" that has killed and disabled millions and continues to do so.

If your argument is that it has the "Experimental" label that the FDA gave it, that argument is going to go away.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pfizer-asks-fda-for-full-approval-of-coronavirus-vaccine/ar-BB1gsRQ2?ocid=msedgntp

Misc says

If your argument is that it has the "Experimental" label that the FDA gave it, that argument is going to go away.

It's not experimental because the FDA says it is. It's experimental because it is still being tested and we have yet to see the medium term effects much less the long term effects.

Robert Sproul says

I would add sugars and high Omega 6 vegetable oils to that. An industry influenced government "Food Pyramid" that has killed and disabled millions and continues to do so.

The man speaks the truth! I'd just add: Industrial lubes != food.

Booger says

Zak says

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/05/06/india-doctors-hiding-kiley-pkg-lead-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus-intl/

ehh.. not that bad really.. just runs the whole ICU out of oxygen... or is this fake news because CNN is the source..??

Fake news / propaganda. That, and if it's true, it says more about one places ability to maintain supplies, or shitty procurement processes.

CNN is Communist propaganda and very very gay.
https://patrick.net/post/1240230/2014-03-25-cnn-comes-out-as-gay?0#comments

Obligatory:

Onvacation says

You really have to ask yourself, Why does the government want every man, woman, and child to get injected with an experimental biologic agent for a cold that is asymptomatic or has minor symptoms for most? AND they are trying to pass it off as a "safe and effective vaccine" when it has caused many deaths and injuries, does not confer immunity, and will not stop you from spreading the disease.

Something nefarious is going on above and beyond all the nefarious stuff that is going on all the time.

Additionally, why are they pushing the vaccine on people who already had Covid and recovered. All the studies point to long-lasting T cell immunity, but they're pressuring us to still get the jab. The variant argument is bullshit.

Misc says

If there were a substantial number of Covid cases requiring hospitalization, it could easily overwhelm the limited number of ICU beds available.

Fine, then pressure "at risk" people to get the vaccine. Over 60 and people with serious underlying conditions. Not me.

zzyzzx says

I got the J&J!!
One and done :)

The weird part is....i was supposed to get dementia and now deformations? Even herpes and death is on the agenda!

Weird....not even herpes yet!???? seems to take longer with me. I'll keep you posed. If I dont respond for a few days, you will know I either have dementia or died.