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Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?


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2021 Oct 23, 11:41am   21,881 views  211 comments

by RWSGFY   ➕follow (4)   💰tip   ignore  


Last year, Patrick Anderson went electric: He got a Porsche Taycan EV in dark blue.
Anderson, who is CEO of East Lansing-based economic consulting firm Anderson Economic Group, loves the zippy acceleration and "exciting" features the car offers. He also gets satisfaction in knowing that driving an EV benefits the environment, he said. 

But Anderson's joy comes with a dark side.
"They are a wonderful driving experience. But at the same time, they're an enormous burden in time and in energy in finding chargers and getting them charged," Anderson said. "And you’re not really saving much in terms of charging costs ... you may be paying more.”

Costs to drive an EV compared with a gasoline car are detailed in a report Anderson Economic released Thursday called "Comparison: Real World Cost of Fueling EVs and ICE Vehicles."
The study has four major findings:
There are four additional costs to powering EVs beyond electricity: cost of a home charger, commercial charging, the EV tax and "deadhead" miles.
For now, EVs cost more to power than gasoline costs to fuel an internal combustion car that gets reasonable gas mileage. 
Charging costs vary more widely than gasoline prices. 
There are significant time costs to finding reliable public chargers – even then a charger could take 30 minutes to go from 20% to an 80% charge.

Anderson has worked with the auto industry for 20 years and given the industry's transition to EVs, the group decided to do the studies to assess the likelihood consumer will adopt the cars.

...

"Part of the strength of the analysis is we’re showing the real-world costs that EV drivers face," Anderson said. "You typically have to go to a commercial charger and commercial charger rates are two, three or four times that of residential charger rates."

Then, there are the "deadhead miles" car owners spend driving around trying to find a commercial charger. Even charging at home on a Level 1 or Level 2 charger is time consuming and expensive. 

...

Anderson's report considers four costs beyond the cost of residential electricity when calculating how much it costs to drive an EV: 

- Cost of the residential charger
- Cost of commercial electricity
- An annual EV tax
- Deadhead miles to get to a fast charger

Given all of that, the conclusion is EVs cost more to "fuel" than gasoline cars that get reasonable gas mileage, Anderson said. It all depends on how the car is used and how much commercial charging is involved. 

A mid-priced internal combustion car that gets 33 miles per gallon would cost $8.58 in overall costs to drive 100 miles at $2.81 a gallon, the study found. But a mid-priced EV, such as Chevrolet Bolt, Nissan Leaf or a Tesla Model 3, would cost $12.95 to drive 100 miles in terms of costs that include recharging the vehicle using mostly a commercial charger.
On a yearly basis, assuming the mid-priced cars traveled 12,000 miles, it would cost  $1,030 to drive an internal combustion car and $1,554 to drive an EV. 
For luxury cars that get 26 miles per gallon and use premium gas at $3.25 a gallon, the cost to drive an internal combustion car 100 miles is $12.60. The cost to drive a luxury EV, such as a Taycan, Tesla Model S or X or Jaguar I-Pace, is $15.52 to travel 100 miles. That is using mostly commercial chargers. 
“That’s apples to apples and includes the extra EV taxes, the commercial charging and the home charging and the allowance of driving to a gas station, which, for most Americans, is very short compared to driving to a commercial charger for an EV owner," Anderson said.

The study differs from some reports that show it's cheaper to drive an EV than a conventional car. For example, a 2018 study from the University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute found the average cost to operate an EV in the U.S. was $485 per year compared with a gasoline-powered vehicle at $1,117. Anderson said most studies include only the cost of residential electricity and don't factor in the four other costs that this study does.

...

Charging costs vary much more for EVs than gasoline prices, too, by 100% or more from month-to-month or week-to-week, Anderson said. 
"Even if you drive to the most expensive gas station, your varying price won’t be as great as that," he said.

“That’s going to be a big surprise to a lot of drivers," Anderson said, adding that many commercial chargers will also require the EV driver to enroll and sometimes pay a $20 fee, but that might be reimbursed with charging.
Also, don't plan on ever having a 100% charge on your EV, he said. 
"It’s very difficult to charge it up to 100%," Anderson said. "The chargers slow down and the manufacturers warn you not to do it because there is additional burden on the battery system when you get your vehicle above a 90% charge.”

That means if the vehicle advertises a range of 240 miles on a full charge, a driver in reality will get considerably less on, say, an 80% charge, he said.
For new EV drivers these costs, time constraints and other considerations are often a surprise, Anderson said.
“Unlike their reliable gas cars that have 300 or 400 miles of range that can be filled up at a number of gas stations in our country, you have to think about what available chargers you have and plan it out," Anderson said. "It’s more than range anxiety, it’s a burden of constantly monitoring the charging status.”
The Anderson report lists about two dozen sources in its research, which relied on consumer experiences and costs for drivers that go beyond government data on fuel economy and electricity prices. Anderson said it did stopwatch measurements of the time required to refuel gasoline cars and EVs, recorded customer experiences on reliability of chargers, charging time and costs. It used consumer reports from actual EV drivers, including those posted on forums for Taycan and Tesla drivers, Reddit and applications serving EV drivers such as PlugShare and ChargePoint.


https://apple.news/AAlPx0L7ZRPikqoXmgfQntg

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192   socal2   2024 Jun 27, 10:41am  

Eric Holder says

Not everybody puts value into this kind of thing. I, for one, don't want to babysit a robot when I can simply drive myself. If you still need to be alert and ready to intervene it's easier for me to do it while driving than while just sitting there and trying to not fall asleep.


Eventually you won't have to babysit it at all and it will be full Level 4 robotaxi. I pretty much have zero intervention drives and love arriving at my destination relaxed and rested.

Even now, Tesla's FSD is about is 98.8% there which is a HUGE value for some people, especially old and young drivers who make up the majority of car accidents and fatalities.

The freedom and improved quality of life self driving cars will provide humanity will be substantial - and no one is remotely close to doing what Tesla has already achieved with their FSD. There is no way Cruise or Waymo can scale up using uber-expensive LIDAR sensors and having to map every city out.
193   Eric Holder   2024 Jun 27, 10:41am  

socal2 says

Enjoy your road paid for by ICE cars that you need to drive your free riding EV on.


We've been through this many times: socal2 (judging by the handle alone) is in CA, which means he pays additional EV fees on par with what average driver of efficient gas car would pay in gas tax.
194   socal2   2024 Jun 27, 10:43am  

Eric Holder says

As an aside, Edmund's model for recommending prices to negotiate to is not really working on Teslas, because you can't negotiate with Tesla.


That is another great feature of Tesla.

You never have to dick around with a middleman Dealer who will markup MSRP and then try to rape you on maintenance for the next 10 years.

I have a warranty item to fix on my car next week and I just requested service through my phone app and they are coming to my house to swap out a sensor with my car parked on the driveway. Couldn't be easier.
195   Eric Holder   2024 Jun 27, 10:47am  

socal2 says


Even now, Tesla's FSD is about is 98.8% there which is a HUGE value for some people, especially old and young drivers who make up the majority of car accidents and fatalities.


Yeah, when (and if) I'm 95, falling asleep no matter what I do and don't mind dying all that much anyway, the value of FSD for me will go up for sure. As for young kids - it's a hard no. You put one of these in a driver seat of FSD-equipped Tesla and you better believe there will be no monitoring and situational awareness whatsoever. Until FSD is certified to drive without supervision it's not a good solution for young drivers.
196   KgK one   2024 Jun 27, 10:47am  

Home charging is cheapest, about 7$ , I am getting more data.

200 miles range keeping 20% to 80% charge

Super charger cost 10-13 $ since it charged 38 c kw

Though it's not economic in short time, working on solar to charge my car.
197   Eric Holder   2024 Jun 27, 10:50am  

KgK one says

Home charging is cheapest, about 7$


Per 10 kWh? This is anal rape.
198   socal2   2024 Jun 27, 10:59am  

Eric Holder says

You put one of these in a driver seat of FSD-equipped Tesla and you better believe there will be no monitoring and situational awareness whatsoever. U


There is a camera in the car and it disengages and warns you if you are not paying attention to the road for too long. So much safer to have a human generally aware of the environment around them and not just focusing on the car ahead letting the car do the majority of the work using all its cameras that can see 360 degrees around the car.

Based on the last month driving FSD, while not perfect - it certainly drives better than my H.S. aged kids and 83 YO mother in law.
199   Eric Holder   2024 Jun 27, 11:39am  

socal2 says


There is a camera in the car and it disengages and warns you if you are not paying attention to the road for too long. So much safer to have a human generally aware of the environment around them


Then there was a 40 y.o. guy who run under a semi while watching fucking Disney movie on a player he placed on the dash in front of him so for the nanny cam it looked like he was looking at the road ahead of him. 🤡 Your average 18yo will figure a way to scroll instagram and post dick picks while appeasing the Big Brother in no time. Little fucks are sneaky like that.

Besides, to be able to jump from "being generally aware" into meaningful action you need to able to read the road situation. Such ability comes with driving experience. Watching robot drive does not give you any such experience. That's why young drivers should learn driving in "dumb" cars.
200   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 27, 11:53am  

Pretty much what socal2 has stated:

Patrick says




201   WookieMan   2024 Jun 27, 1:24pm  

socal2 says

Absurd comparison. Can a Toyota drive itself door to door like my Model Y has been doing all summer with the free FSD trial? Does Toyota have the highest safety rating off all time like the Model Y has?

Don't get into accidents? I drive door to door just fine without help besides my brain. Not sure why people trust that tech. I'm glad the car that tracks every move you makes is cool?

It's not absurd. 0-60 times and FSD isn't worth $20k. That's worth 5-10 years worth of gas and maintenance on that sized car. The Toyota is just fine for less and is bigger. Model Y is NOT a SUV. It's a hatchback.

And no, per mile driven EV's 100% don't pay their fair share. I don't care the state. I don't care the weight. A semi weighing 80k is paying exponentially more for your roads than an EV. Registration fees are laughable. You don't pay or understand MFT.
202   Eric Holder   2024 Jun 27, 2:00pm  

WookieMan says

It's not absurd. 0-60 times and FSD isn't worth $20k.


I have a slightly-under-6-seconds ICE car and I don't use its full acceleration ability more than maybe once per month. This is basically an equivalent of Model3 RWD performance, so slow by Tesla standards. I'm still way ahead of everybody from every stop light though. Even in a truck which is comparatively slow as fuck. I had faster rental Teslas (MY LR, for example, which is a 4.5 sec car, iirc) and, aside from giving it the beans couple of times on the first day just to see what is it capable of, all that performance went mostly unused. Watching range drop like a fucking rock after every spirited launch didn't help either. So if we are being adults about it, paying for 0-60 under 7-8 seconds is a want, not need. And a dubious want at that. An 8 second car will have no problem keeping up with traffic, merging into freeways, passing on the two-lane roads, etc.
203   The_Deplorable   2024 Jun 27, 5:42pm  

DeficitHawk says
"Back to the title of this thread though... Is it more expensive to buy
gas or electricity for a car?.. For me, a gallon of gas is $5.00, and 10 kWh from
PG&E is $3.60. So that's the answer."

@DeficitHawk

You also need to add the cost of the battery to your daily cost calculations.

a. How long before you need to replace the battery and
b. How much will it cost?

A while back we had this in the news:

Man Blows Up His Tesla Model S Instead of Replacing the Battery...
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/12/30/tesla-exploded-dynamite-repair-costs-22k-moos-pkg-vpx.cnn
204   DeficitHawk   2024 Jun 27, 10:42pm  

The_Deplorable says

You also need to add the cost of the battery to your daily cost calculations.


No I don't. The question asked in this thread is just "which is more expensive... fueling a car with gas or fueling with electricity?" 1 gallon = 10kwh, multiply your electricity cost by 10 and compare to a gallon of gas in your area. Give or take, this is a fair answer to the question.

Maintenance, depreciation, performance, joy of driving, total cost of ownership, time spent detouring for gas... time spent at electric chargers... time spent changing oil and brake pads.. used vs new prices, subsidies, etc etc... those are all topics people can talk about, but its not the question asked at the top of this thread. The question asked at the top of this thread is to compare the cost of gas to the cost of electricity. The answer to this question is very simple to answer, and I did it for you. Of course, the rage bait analysis offered in the OP is totally out to lunch with apples to oranges comparisons and makes no sense whatsoever.

The lowest total cost of ownership car I can imagine would be a used Nissan Leaf in good condition. Super cheap to buy. Super cheap to own. Cheap to insure. I've never had to replace a battery in any of the 3 electric cars I've had, they are pretty much life of the vehicle. I'm sure some people will have to after 150-200k miles... but then, I've had to replace a gas engine after 200k miles too... so ymmv when considering high mileage component failures.

I acknowledge a used Prius is also pretty low total cost of ownership, on par with a Leaf in areas with high PG&E electric prices.
205   socal2   2024 Jun 28, 8:51am  

Eric Holder says

I have a slightly-under-6-seconds ICE car and I don't use its full acceleration ability more than maybe once per month.


With a Tesla, you use it all the time because you are not making obnoxious noise, you are not spinning your tires out and it is so easy to slow down with regen without even having to tap your friction brakes. It is shocking how easy and smooth it is to get to 80 mph. So nice having that torque and power on the freeway when you need to slot into a section. Totally effortless.

Even in my dumpy little Chevy Bolt, it was so quick and stealthy that I was always smoking people on the freeway.
207   Eric Holder   2024 Jun 28, 11:32am  

socal2 says

With a Tesla, you use it all the time because you are not making obnoxious noise, you are not spinning your tires out and it is so easy to slow down with regen without even having to tap your friction brakes.


You calling the glorious song of a high-revving engine "obnoxious noise"? =))

I don't do it often, because there is no need for it in daily driving, that's all. And, as noted above, I rented many a Tesla.
209   WookieMan   2024 Jun 28, 3:07pm  

socal2 says

With a Tesla, you use it all the time because you are not making obnoxious noise, you are not spinning your tires out and it is so easy to slow down with regen without even having to tap your friction brakes. It is shocking how easy and smooth it is to get to 80 mph. So nice having that torque and power on the freeway when you need to slot into a section. Totally effortless.

With CA traffic??? You crazy talking. Traffic is shit as a visitor/tourist. 80mph? Unless you're going east I don't think I've been close to hitting 80mph and usually it's a 40mph merge best case.

I don't spin my tires or make noise. I don't speed. Or drive recklessly, which 0-60 in 4 seconds is technically illegal in most states. Speeding up and changing lanes is also illegal in most states. Should be slowing down and moving to the right.

Not shitting on you Socal or other patnet users, but speeding and acceleration are kind of small dick syndrome behaviors. Not sure the point. I'll drive the speed limit and keep my licenses and not pay tickets. Worked for 22 years. I know too many dip shits with driving infractions and DUI because they were stupid. Just drive a car safe. It doesn't need to be fast.
210   socal2   2024 Jun 28, 4:09pm  

WookieMan says

With CA traffic??? You crazy talking. Traffic is shit as a visitor/tourist. 80mph? Unless you're going east I don't think I've been close to hitting 80mph and usually it's a 40mph merge best case.


I'm in north San Diego County and don't hit much traffic on the freeways. And we have a ton of really nice 3 lane arterial roads all over including fun hills and straights. I've said before that I live in a really fun driving area.

WookieMan says

Not shitting on you Socal or other patnet users, but speeding and acceleration are kind of small dick syndrome behaviors. Not sure the point.


I'm addicted to the massive torque and acceleration. I just can't get over it along with the regenerative braking which make for a different way of driving. Like having access to a rollercoaster with a small press of the accelerator.

It would be small dick if I was driving a loud and obnoxious car, belching out exhaust and drawing attention to me. But I can zip around quickly in my Tesla without making a scene or bothering anyone. Especially since there are a bazillion Teslas driving really fast on the road around where I live.

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