patrick.net

socal2 says

I don't have to wait in a long Costco line to fill up every week either like I do with my wife's car

You are so silly. It's a false choice to have to choose between refueling at Costco versus charging an EV at home.

Today (June 23, 2024) I purchased gasoline for my plug in Prius at Platinum Gas on Tully Road in San Jose for $4.059 per gallon. And I didn't make a special trip to Platinum Gas. I was passing by on my way home from somewhere else. No line of cars, because it wasn't Costco. Could've charged it at home for $0.45 per kwhr. Got 57 mpg on that fillup at $4.059 per gallon. You do the math.

Silly Socal.

WookieMan says

Taxes are a coming.

I already pay high registration fees for my EV in California so those costs have already been baked in the cake. My power company (SDG&E) just locked in my new rates for the next half decade so I will continue to save over $200/month driving a comparable car.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Could've charged it at home for $0.45 per kwhr. Got 57 mpg on that fillup at $4.059 per gallon. You do the math.

Silly Socal.

I have done the math.

My charging costs are about 75% cheaper than yours. Gas is really expensive in San Diego County since we are so far from the refineries.

socal2 says

Trust me, once you drive a Tesla - you are not going back to drive a primitive ICE cars let alone downgrading to an inferior EV brand.

I disagree. I've driven a Tesla, but decided to buy different brands of EV, and I also keep an ICE car. I have a Leaf (OK car, not fancy, but super cheap to own and operate), and a Mustang EV (Very nice to drive car, with nicer fit/finish than a Tesla and a proper instrument cluster, but kinda expensive). I dont think Teslas are magic in any way, but I DO think Tesla as a company, and Elon Musk have done a lot of innovation in this field and should be credited with making the product class viable.

My PGE rates have been increased significantly, and now I pay 36 cents per kwh, which is reducing the fuel savings a lot. Still less than gas, but not enough less to write home about. Actually the PGE rates are really punishing to California EV owners now, and I expect this will reduce demand in CA. This is because of transmission line maintenance and fire settlements... it has little to do with electricity production costs, its just that PGE defrays these grid costs on a per kwh basis so those of us who drive EV pay a disproportionate share of grid upkeep. For people who don't have PGE super high rates, the savings will be much more compelling. But I do get the HOV stickers which are a valuable subsidy.

For those of us paying 36 cents per kwh and $5 per gallon gas, a Prius is probably similar operating cost to my Leaf and cheaper than my mustang EV. For people who have better (15 c/kwh) electric rates, an EVs will easily beat a Prius for operating cost.

DeficitHawk says

This is because of transmission line maintenance and fire settlements... it has little to do with electricity production costs

Not in Alameda County, which only uses PG&E for transmission. They buy their juice from Wind/Solar bullshit sources and the rates are soaring. LCOE is point blank financial fraud and should be prosecuted as such.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Not in Alameda County, which only uses PG&E for transmission. They buy their juice from Wind/Solar bullshit sources and the rates are soaring

Im in alameda county, but I don't understand this comment. PGE publishes its wholesale energy acquisition costs, but those costs are typically 5 cents or less per kwh. The other 30 cents per kwh I have to pay are all transmission maintenance, fire damages, and institutional bloat I assume.

socal2 says

WookieMan says

Taxes are a coming.

I already pay high registration fees for my EV in California so those costs have already been baked in the cake.

They haven't yet. I'm talking motor fuel tax that all ICE cars pay. Your state is actively talking about charging EV's per mile driven, posted before https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/california-gas-tax-drivers-charge-miles/3544491/#:~:text=of%20miles%20driven.-,Gas%20tax%20revenues%20are%20starting%20to%20dry%20up%20with%20the,about%203%20cents%20per%20mile.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. They cannot pass this on to ICE vehicles, that will never work as they already pay MFT. Depending on distances driven it's likely $6-12/wk. It's just a "test" but you know damn well it will become law in your state and many others.

We need roads regardless of how green a state wants to be. Not talking about drivers. The roads have to be paid for and you're getting a free ride right now and it will come to an end. I know this business and how government operates more than anyone on this forum. Your cost of ownership/charging WILL go up.

What once looked good not paying for gas is going to be more expensive factoring in the price of the car. If you enjoy driving it I won't shit on any EV owner. I'm just letting you know it's not cheaper and will be more expensive than an ICE vehicle shortly to operate. It's not an if, it's when.

DeficitHawk says

I disagree. I've driven a Tesla, but decided to buy different brands of EV, and I also keep an ICE car. I have a Leaf (OK car, not fancy, but super cheap to own and operate), and a Mustang EV (Very nice to drive car, with nicer fit/finish than a Tesla and a proper instrument cluster, but kinda expensive). I dont think Teslas are magic in any way, but I DO think Tesla as a company, and Elon Musk have done a lot of innovation in this field and should be credited with making the product class viable.

Fair enough - there are a couple decent EV's beside Tesla, but none of those companies are sustainable. Ford loses $100K on every Mustang EV they sell even after incentives.
https://www.motor1.com/news/719482/ford-losing-100000-per-ev/#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20the%20Model%20e,three%20months%20of%20the%20year.

Rivian is losing over $30K for every truck they sell.
https://jalopnik.com/rivian-loses-33k-on-every-truck-it-sells-report-1850899055

Meanwhile, Tesla is making twice the industry average gross margin compared to companies that make cheaper ICE cars.

What Tesla has done in terms of scaling and efficiencies is remarkable.

socal2 says

Meanwhile, Tesla is making twice the industry average gross margin compared to companies that make cheaper ICE cars.

What Tesla has done in terms of scaling and efficiencies is remarkable.

While not wrong, a hybrid>EV. More utility. No range anxiety. I have no interest in either. I want a V8 that fits 7-8 people. I give no shits about gas prices. Not a knock on EV drivers, I'm just not a child anymore. Gas prices are inconsequential until they hit $10-15 for me. I'm not paying $10-50k more for a car that doesn't perform what I need it to. I'll pay $15-20k in gas before the EV is paid off in 5 years.

WookieMan says

While not wrong, a hybrid>EV. More utility. No range anxiety. I have no interest in either. I want a V8 that fits 7-8 people.

Different strokes for different folks. I have a few cars so I can have an EV for local use, and a gasser jeep for my far flung adventures. For trips within the EV range, I always prefer to drive the EV. I think they are more pleasant to drive, and I never have to stop for gas in it. Hybrids like the new Prius are likely a good option for some families (especially 1 car families).. but I don't have any use case where I'd choose a Prius instead of the pure EV or pure Gas cars I already have. For short range I will always choose the pure EV. for long range, I will always choose the big gasser. On average, I put more miles on EVs than Gas, but I drive whichever one I prefer for the task at hand. Some people insist that long distance by EV is fine, and its OK to stop at quick chargers, but I dont like to do this because it breaks up my drives at intervals that are not convenient for me. I'll only use public chargers in an emergency.

So for me, EVs are for local, Gas for distance. 2 car families can have a short range cheap EV for local errands, and a gasser (Truck/minivan/SUV) for anything the EV cant do. That's a great arrangement and lots of people will find the EV gets driven more miles than the gasser like we did.

WookieMan says

I give no shits about gas prices. Not a knock on EV drivers, I'm just not a child anymore. Gas prices are inconsequential until they hit $10-15 for me.

I will always live like an impoverished grad student. Its engrained in my behavior. Even if I can afford the gas, I just wont pass up savings opportunity if it exists :-) But, alas, in PGE territory, there isnt much savings opportunity anymore.socal2 says

Fair enough - there are a couple decent EV's beside Tesla, but none of those companies are sustainable. Ford loses $100K on every Mustang EV they sell even after incentives.

Yes, this is probably true. But so did tesla for years and years. Every company has to figure this out and will operate at a loss until they optimize production and scale up. Other companies will figure this out too but it will take time. Ford is still learning. No shame in taking a loss while learning how do do something new.

DeficitHawk says

I will always live like an impoverished grad student. Its engrained in my behavior. Even if I can afford the gas, I just wont pass up savings opportunity if it exists :-)

I don't disagree with this mentality. I max out everything I can savings wise. Between electric and the price of the car it takes usually 3-5 years to break even versus an ICE vehicle. I'd prefer to invest the money and pay for gas which is readily available with no wait time pretty much anywhere.

I literally have no chargers within 20 miles of me. So if I were to have low power I'd be screwed. All the Tesla owners I know have run out of juice multiple times because of the charging hassle. Might be their fault. I've only ran out of gas once as a dumb ass teenager. Walked across the road and a neighbor had gas they just gave me. I'd be fucked in an EV. Would need a tow.

DeficitHawk says

Yes, this is probably true. But so did tesla for years and years. Every company has to figure this out and will operate at a loss until they optimize production and scale up. Other companies will figure this out too but it will take time. Ford is still learning. No shame in taking a loss while learning how do do something new.

I dunno - the other OEM's trying to make EV's (especially Rivian) are burning through way more cash at a much higher rate than Tesla did at the early stage.



Plus - all the other OEM's are saddled with decades of debt, outdated factories and massive pension liabilities. Tesla has state of the art factories with little CAPEX debt and no massive legacy workforce pension liability.

socal2 says

I dunno - the other OEM's trying to make EV's (especially Rivian) are burning through way more cash at a much higher rate than Tesla did at the early stage.

They were kind of told to by the government is the problem. Tesla has done a solid job, not shitting on it. OEM's are trying to ramp up something they shouldn't be doing. Gas ain't going away. They should be hyper focused on hybrids. Daily commuter where you can get 50-60 miles and then rely on gas if needed.

I actually have no issue with EV's besides the cost and people saying it's cheaper and "green" which pissed me off the most. Fun car to drive. Just don't bull shit people. It's more expensive to drive for sure. No one EVER factors in the cost of the car the the years of gas you could get driving a Civic or Corolla. Basically the same car just not as zippy.

WookieMan says

I actually have no issue with EV's besides the cost and people saying it's cheaper and "green" which pissed me off the most.

You know I don't care about "Green" - but it's true for me and alot of Tesla drivers I know that we are saving money on fuel and maintenance.

Again, I am comparing my Tesla Model Y to an equivalent BMW or Mercedes and not basic trim Nissan or Hyundai sedan.

Tesla was simply the most powerful and luxurious car I could personally afford. I spend alot of time driving (not towing) and the enjoyment, ease and safety of driving a Tesla is worth every penny IMO.

socal2 says

WookieMan says

I actually have no issue with EV's besides the cost and people saying it's cheaper and "green" which pissed me off the most.

You know I don't care about "Green" - but it's true for me and alot of Tesla drivers I know that we are saving money on fuel and maintenance.

Again, I am comparing my Tesla Model Y to an equivalent BMW or Mercedes and not basic trim Nissan or Hyundai sedan.

Tesla was simply the most powerful and luxurious car I could personally afford. I spend alot of time driving (not towing) and the enjoyment, ease and safety of driving a Tesla is worth every penny IMO.

Insurance is a killer though. Easily 2x for similarly priced non-Tesla car. At least this is what I get when I run "what if" scenarios on my ins co website.

Eric Holder says

Insurance is a killer though. Easily 2x for similarly priced non-Tesla car. At least this is what I get when I run "what if" scenarios on my ins co website.

Insurance is more expensive for sure, but not enough to eclipse the savings I have on gas and maintenance. I typically save over $250/month on gas according to my Tesla app which uses my local electricity and fuel rates to calculate. That doesn't include the cost savings for 2-3 oil changes a year and brake work (we go through brake pads quickly as we have a big hill to get out of our neighborhood).

So I say I save about $200/month factoring in everything including more expensive insurance.

socal2 says

You know I don't care about "Green" - but it's true for me and alot of Tesla drivers I know that we are saving money on fuel and maintenance.

You aren't and won't has been my point. I get you don't want a Nissan or Hyundai. For the same size weight and cubic footage, the other models are exponentially cheaper. You're not factoring in the cost of a Tesla or other high end EV's. It's 5 years of gas dude. Not trying to be a dick, but this isn't rocket science.

If I pay even $10k more for a car that's on average 5 years worth of gas. You don't get any return for 5 years and likely are paying the electric for it. In 5 years I could turn $10k into $20k and so could others. It's a bad investment that is fun to drive.

WookieMan says

You aren't and won't has been my point.

You think I don't know how to manage my checkbook or I am just lying to you all?

Another factor I may have already mentioned is that I get a car allowance for work. So I have no incentive to own a car as my monthly auto allowance get taxed and/or reduced after 3 years or about 40,000 miles. I drive customers and senior management around and can't be driving a 5+ YO beater.

So I lease and keep my monthly payments to a bare minimum and my monthly car allowance covers my lease, insurance and charging costs.......with some money left over if I billed more than 500 miles a month for work travel.

socal2 says

You think I don't know how to manage my checkbook or I am just lying to you all?

Kind of just admitted you lied here dude. You don't pay for your car. Which is fine. My wife doesn't either.

And a 5+ year old beater is on the owner. Take care of it. For a 12 year old car you'd have no problem riding in mine. Driver seat is messed up, but everything else is pristine. Good on you for not having to pay for a car and telling people that do that yours is superior.

I take no issue with you dude. I'd buy a Tesla in a second. I'm just not a car guy. 40k miles in three years is child's play. Honestly you're lucky that you can do that. Enjoy it. EV's are not cheaper though is my point and always has been. You can't erase $10-40K. Let me know if someone offered you $10k in gas if you'd take it? You would. That easily 3-5 years depending on the size of car. That's the difference between EV's and ICE. It's math. People gonna get their money either way.

Back to the title of this thread though... Is it more expensive to buy gas or electricity for a car?

From my experience, 1 gallon of gas is about equivalent to 10kWh, on the basis of moving a similarly sized car a similar distance.

So the math is pretty simple. How much do you pay for electricity per kWh? multiply that 10 and compare to the price of a gallon of gas. Thats it. Thats the answer to the question in this thread. All the other analysis is rage bait and personal preference.

For me, a gallon of gas is $5.00, and 10 kWh from PG&E is $3.60. So that's the answer.

DeficitHawk says

Back to the title of this thread though... Is it more expensive to buy gas or electricity for a car?

From my experience, 1 gallon of gas is about equivalent to 10kWh, on the basis of moving a similarly sized car a similar distance.

So the math is pretty simple. How much do you pay for electricity per kWh? multiply that 10 and compare to the price of a gallon of gas. Thats it. Thats the answer to the question in this thread. All the other analysis is rage bait and personal preference.

For me, a gallon of gas is $5.00, and 10 kWh from PG&E is $3.60. So that's the answer.

For me, gas is around $4.15-4.30 per gallon now and PG&E is $.43-.46 per kWh. Throw in the higher registration fees and insurance cost and where are the savings? In not needing oil changes? That's $40 once a year and 20 minutes of easy work.

Eric Holder says

For me, gas is around $4.15-4.30 per gallon now and PG&E is $.43-.46 per kWh. Throw in the higher registration fees and insurance cost and where are the savings? In not needing oil changes? That's $40 once a year and 20 minutes of easy work.

It's a California car. Gas is $3.60 here currently. CA has super high gas prices notoriously. Probably works well in Florida too. You get into hilly areas and EV's are useless.

I couldn't get stranded here in IL when it hits 7ºF for a high and overnight low of -15ºF like happened to a ton of IL Tesla owners this past winter. I'm not buying a sedan and/or paying $10-20k more for a similar model hybrid. I give no shits about 0-60 times or a fucking iPad for controls.

Outside of an engine failure or transmission, ICE cars are easy and cheap to repair. EV's still need AC and heat components. Your battery actually dies and you're $10-20k deep instead of $120. I don't have to go to a Tesla mechanic, I can go anywhere. I really still don't understand the point outside of they're fun to drive. That's not how I view cars. EV's are not cheaper and I give no fucks about CO2. It's makes trees and green stuff grow. EV drivers are starving the trees.

Eric Holder says

For me, gas is around $4.15-4.30 per gallon now and PG&E is $.43-.46 per kWh. Throw in the higher registration fees and insurance cost and where are the savings? In not needing oil changes? That's $40 once a year and 20 minutes of easy work.

Again - you guys are getting raped on your electricity rates in NorCal. Even with high California gas rates, the math won't pencil out at $.46 kWh when just looking at pure energy savings. One of my coworkers in Oregon with a Model Y pays something like $.03/kWH at night when he charges.

Finally, what are you comparing a Tesla to in terms of overall costs comparison? At minimum, you should compare it to a mid-level trim BMW in terms of performance and quality. Right out of the gate, comparable BWM's cost more than mid-range Teslas (even before the Government incentive). And there is more to maintenance than just oil changes on ICE cars.

Teslas is the least expensive car to maintain over a 10 year period.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-car-ownership-a1854979198/

WookieMan says

You get into hilly areas and EV's are useless.

Huh? EV's are an absolute fucking blast when it comes to hills. It is probably the #1 reason I first got an EV (Chevy Bolt) in the first place wanting the extra power to get around my hilly area. I absolutely love seeing my battery add miles of charge coming down the big hill in my neighborhood instead of smoking my friction brakes.

So basically, like real estate, EV savings are local. It's nice to know some guy in OR pays $0.03 per kWh, but when it's $0.35-0.46 in your neck of the woods it is what it is.

socal2 says

Finally, what are you comparing a Tesla to in terms of overall costs comparison? At minimum, you should compare it to a mid-level trim BMW in terms of performance and quality. Right out of the gate, comparable BWM's cost more than mid-range Teslas (even before the Government incentive). And there is more to maintenance than just oil changes on ICE cars.

I've been in Teslas. Had one parked in my driveway a couple weeks back. It's not a luxury car. Also, apples and oranges. Model Y is NOT an SUV by any stretch either but I'll compare it with a real hybrid SUV.





I can get a bigger car. Be as efficient using gas. That $16,160 price difference is 7-10 years of gas on a hybrid. That's not factoring in the cost of charging a Tesla. ICE vehicles maybe are $500/yr to maintain. I'll pay for gas and invest the other money and come out on top 10 out of 10 times. This really shouldn't be a debate.

You're either doing it because you like to drive it or a greenie. It's 100% not cheaper than an ICE hybrid.

Side note. I wouldn't even qualify for the tax credit. So I'd pay full price for a Tesla.

Enjoy my tax money.... Enjoy your road paid for by ICE cars that you need to drive your free riding EV on. This is why people think EV drivers are pompous ass holes. Killing trees. Damaging the roads. Burdening the electric grid. Mining minerals unethically to drive around in an overpriced golf cart. Winning as Charlie Sheen would say.

WookieMan says

Also, apples and oranges. Model Y is NOT an SUV by any stretch either but I'll compare it with a real hybrid SUV.

Absurd comparison. Can a Toyota drive itself door to door like my Model Y has been doing all summer with the free FSD trial? Does Toyota have the highest safety rating off all time like the Model Y has? Does Toyota have OTA updates adding new features and improvements throughout the life of the car? And who gets MSRP prices?

The new Model 3 Performance Ludicrous is about $50K and it is faster and has better performance than most Porsche 9/11 trims that cost 3X the price.

The higher end Tesla Model S's and X's are faster than some Bugattis that are 10X the price.

Besides, Tesla's masterplan was always about making a cheaper model (less than $25K) when they got to manufacturing scale so more people can afford them.

But when the Model Y is already THE BEST SELLING CAR IN THE WORLD (including ICE cars), Tesla is in no hurry to build a cheaper model as there is still plenty of demand for higher end models and better margin.

socal2 says

Finally, what are you comparing a Tesla to in terms of overall costs comparison? At minimum, you should compare it to a mid-level trim BMW in terms of performance and quality.

For insurance purposes I was comparing it to all kinds of cars and trucks with close MSRP. Reliably getting quotes for ~1/2 of Tesla quote.

socal2 says

Can a Toyota drive itself door to door like my Model Y has been doing all summer with the free FSD trial?

Not everybody puts value into this kind of thing. I, for one, don't want to babysit a robot when I can simply drive myself. If you still need to be alert and ready to intervene it's easier for me to do it while driving than while just sitting there and trying to not fall asleep.

WookieMan says

Side note. I wouldn't even qualify for the tax credit. So I'd pay full price for a Tesla.

Enjoy my tax money.... Enjoy your road paid for by ICE cars that you need to drive your free riding EV on. This is why people think EV drivers are pompous ass holes. Killing trees. Damaging the roads. Burdening the electric grid. Mining minerals unethically to drive around in an overpriced golf cart. Winning as Charlie Sheen would say.

It's a myth that Tesla's are appreciably heavier than equivalent ICE cars. Average vehicle weight in the US is 4,300 lbs. The mid-size Model Y weighs 4,416 pounds.

How much road damage, traffic congestion, pollution and money we spend do you think hundreds of thousands of fuel tanker trucks have on US roads hauling gas around to fill up gas stations every single day? How much electricity do we use - just to refine oil into gasoline at our refineries? How much of our foreign policy is dictated by keeping Islamists and totalitarians happy to keep oil production high and the cost down?

As an aside, Edmund's model for recommending prices to negotiate to is not really working on Teslas, because you can't negotiate with Tesla.

Eric Holder says

Not everybody puts value into this kind of thing. I, for one, don't want to babysit a robot when I can simply drive myself. If you still need to be alert and ready to intervene it's easier for me to do it while driving than while just sitting there and trying to not fall asleep.

Eventually you won't have to babysit it at all and it will be full Level 4 robotaxi. I pretty much have zero intervention drives and love arriving at my destination relaxed and rested.

Even now, Tesla's FSD is about is 98.8% there which is a HUGE value for some people, especially old and young drivers who make up the majority of car accidents and fatalities.

The freedom and improved quality of life self driving cars will provide humanity will be substantial - and no one is remotely close to doing what Tesla has already achieved with their FSD. There is no way Cruise or Waymo can scale up using uber-expensive LIDAR sensors and having to map every city out.

socal2 says

Enjoy your road paid for by ICE cars that you need to drive your free riding EV on.

We've been through this many times: socal2 (judging by the handle alone) is in CA, which means he pays additional EV fees on par with what average driver of efficient gas car would pay in gas tax.

Eric Holder says

As an aside, Edmund's model for recommending prices to negotiate to is not really working on Teslas, because you can't negotiate with Tesla.

That is another great feature of Tesla.

You never have to dick around with a middleman Dealer who will markup MSRP and then try to rape you on maintenance for the next 10 years.

I have a warranty item to fix on my car next week and I just requested service through my phone app and they are coming to my house to swap out a sensor with my car parked on the driveway. Couldn't be easier.

socal2 says

Even now, Tesla's FSD is about is 98.8% there which is a HUGE value for some people, especially old and young drivers who make up the majority of car accidents and fatalities.

Yeah, when (and if) I'm 95, falling asleep no matter what I do and don't mind dying all that much anyway, the value of FSD for me will go up for sure. As for young kids - it's a hard no. You put one of these in a driver seat of FSD-equipped Tesla and you better believe there will be no monitoring and situational awareness whatsoever. Until FSD is certified to drive without supervision it's not a good solution for young drivers.

Home charging is cheapest, about 7$ , I am getting more data.

200 miles range keeping 20% to 80% charge

Super charger cost 10-13 $ since it charged 38 c kw

Though it's not economic in short time, working on solar to charge my car.

KgK one says

Home charging is cheapest, about 7$

Per 10 kWh? This is anal rape.

Eric Holder says

You put one of these in a driver seat of FSD-equipped Tesla and you better believe there will be no monitoring and situational awareness whatsoever. U

There is a camera in the car and it disengages and warns you if you are not paying attention to the road for too long. So much safer to have a human generally aware of the environment around them and not just focusing on the car ahead letting the car do the majority of the work using all its cameras that can see 360 degrees around the car.

Based on the last month driving FSD, while not perfect - it certainly drives better than my H.S. aged kids and 83 YO mother in law.

socal2 says

There is a camera in the car and it disengages and warns you if you are not paying attention to the road for too long. So much safer to have a human generally aware of the environment around them

Then there was a 40 y.o. guy who run under a semi while watching fucking Disney movie on a player he placed on the dash in front of him so for the nanny cam it looked like he was looking at the road ahead of him. 🤡 Your average 18yo will figure a way to scroll instagram and post dick picks while appeasing the Big Brother in no time. Little fucks are sneaky like that.

Besides, to be able to jump from "being generally aware" into meaningful action you need to able to read the road situation. Such ability comes with driving experience. Watching robot drive does not give you any such experience. That's why young drivers should learn driving in "dumb" cars.