6
2

Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?


 invite response                
2021 Oct 23, 11:41am   25,703 views  211 comments

by RWSGFY   ➕follow (4)   💰tip   ignore  


Last year, Patrick Anderson went electric: He got a Porsche Taycan EV in dark blue.
Anderson, who is CEO of East Lansing-based economic consulting firm Anderson Economic Group, loves the zippy acceleration and "exciting" features the car offers. He also gets satisfaction in knowing that driving an EV benefits the environment, he said. 

But Anderson's joy comes with a dark side.
"They are a wonderful driving experience. But at the same time, they're an enormous burden in time and in energy in finding chargers and getting them charged," Anderson said. "And you’re not really saving much in terms of charging costs ... you may be paying more.”

Costs to drive an EV compared with a gasoline car are detailed in a report Anderson Economic released Thursday called "Comparison: Real World Cost of Fueling EVs and ICE Vehicles."
The study has four major findings:
There are four additional costs to powering EVs beyond electricity: cost of a home charger, commercial charging, the EV tax and "deadhead" miles.
For now, EVs cost more to power than gasoline costs to fuel an internal combustion car that gets reasonable gas mileage. 
Charging costs vary more widely than gasoline prices. 
There are significant time costs to finding reliable public chargers – even then a charger could take 30 minutes to go from 20% to an 80% charge.

Anderson has worked with the auto industry for 20 years and given the industry's transition to EVs, the group decided to do the studies to assess the likelihood consumer will adopt the cars.

...

"Part of the strength of the analysis is we’re showing the real-world costs that EV drivers face," Anderson said. "You typically have to go to a commercial charger and commercial charger rates are two, three or four times that of residential charger rates."

Then, there are the "deadhead miles" car owners spend driving around trying to find a commercial charger. Even charging at home on a Level 1 or Level 2 charger is time consuming and expensive. 

...

Anderson's report considers four costs beyond the cost of residential electricity when calculating how much it costs to drive an EV: 

- Cost of the residential charger
- Cost of commercial electricity
- An annual EV tax
- Deadhead miles to get to a fast charger

Given all of that, the conclusion is EVs cost more to "fuel" than gasoline cars that get reasonable gas mileage, Anderson said. It all depends on how the car is used and how much commercial charging is involved. 

A mid-priced internal combustion car that gets 33 miles per gallon would cost $8.58 in overall costs to drive 100 miles at $2.81 a gallon, the study found. But a mid-priced EV, such as Chevrolet Bolt, Nissan Leaf or a Tesla Model 3, would cost $12.95 to drive 100 miles in terms of costs that include recharging the vehicle using mostly a commercial charger.
On a yearly basis, assuming the mid-priced cars traveled 12,000 miles, it would cost  $1,030 to drive an internal combustion car and $1,554 to drive an EV. 
For luxury cars that get 26 miles per gallon and use premium gas at $3.25 a gallon, the cost to drive an internal combustion car 100 miles is $12.60. The cost to drive a luxury EV, such as a Taycan, Tesla Model S or X or Jaguar I-Pace, is $15.52 to travel 100 miles. That is using mostly commercial chargers. 
“That’s apples to apples and includes the extra EV taxes, the commercial charging and the home charging and the allowance of driving to a gas station, which, for most Americans, is very short compared to driving to a commercial charger for an EV owner," Anderson said.

The study differs from some reports that show it's cheaper to drive an EV than a conventional car. For example, a 2018 study from the University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute found the average cost to operate an EV in the U.S. was $485 per year compared with a gasoline-powered vehicle at $1,117. Anderson said most studies include only the cost of residential electricity and don't factor in the four other costs that this study does.

...

Charging costs vary much more for EVs than gasoline prices, too, by 100% or more from month-to-month or week-to-week, Anderson said. 
"Even if you drive to the most expensive gas station, your varying price won’t be as great as that," he said.

“That’s going to be a big surprise to a lot of drivers," Anderson said, adding that many commercial chargers will also require the EV driver to enroll and sometimes pay a $20 fee, but that might be reimbursed with charging.
Also, don't plan on ever having a 100% charge on your EV, he said. 
"It’s very difficult to charge it up to 100%," Anderson said. "The chargers slow down and the manufacturers warn you not to do it because there is additional burden on the battery system when you get your vehicle above a 90% charge.”

That means if the vehicle advertises a range of 240 miles on a full charge, a driver in reality will get considerably less on, say, an 80% charge, he said.
For new EV drivers these costs, time constraints and other considerations are often a surprise, Anderson said.
“Unlike their reliable gas cars that have 300 or 400 miles of range that can be filled up at a number of gas stations in our country, you have to think about what available chargers you have and plan it out," Anderson said. "It’s more than range anxiety, it’s a burden of constantly monitoring the charging status.”
The Anderson report lists about two dozen sources in its research, which relied on consumer experiences and costs for drivers that go beyond government data on fuel economy and electricity prices. Anderson said it did stopwatch measurements of the time required to refuel gasoline cars and EVs, recorded customer experiences on reliability of chargers, charging time and costs. It used consumer reports from actual EV drivers, including those posted on forums for Taycan and Tesla drivers, Reddit and applications serving EV drivers such as PlugShare and ChargePoint.


https://apple.news/AAlPx0L7ZRPikqoXmgfQntg

« First        Comments 21 - 60 of 211       Last »     Search these comments

21   Eric Holder   2022 Mar 24, 9:00am  

socal2 says
Eric Holder says
I'm pretty sure you did not read the article.


I did read it. I leased a Chevy Bolt for the last 3 years before getting a Tesla and am well aware of "MY" driving requirements.

I am able to charge at home 98% of the time at very cheap electricity rates. Over 90% of my driving is less than 50 miles a day so I almost never use superchargers. I take maybe 2 roadtrips a year.

Since my Tesla (which I got before all of the price increases and no incentives) is equal to even a little bit less than an equivalent BMW - I am still saving nearly $200 a month in fuel and no oil changes.


Then you should know that he did address your corner case there.
22   socal2   2022 Mar 24, 10:49am  

Eric Holder says
Then you should know that he did address your corner case there.


I don't think it is a corner case.

Anecdotal only, but every EV driver I know in California relies almost exclusively on home charging and only use the Super Chargers for the occasional road trip.

I would not recommend an EV (at current prices) if the person has to rely on public charging and couldn't charge at home.
23   WookieMan   2022 Mar 24, 11:15am  

Eman says
Not sure why some people keep referring to Tesla as a status symbol.

It is. So are the other models you mention. I simply don't give a shit though. I'm unique in that I give zero shits about gas prices as I don't have to. The higher they are the more my family makes. If someone likes $50-100k cars cool. I have two sitting in the driveway with a 4-Runner and Armada and the 3rd is a $10k Nissan Versa from 2009.

My take is that it's not more efficient or cheaper long term. The only savings is oil changes (air filter, oil and oil filter). And that's 4 times a year for 90% of people if you're going by 3 months.

Function is and always will be the hurdle for EV's for me. I don't see anything in the near future that can 100% charge in 5 minutes or less, drive 300-400 miles, tow up to 10k lbs that's the size of an Armada or Sequoia. I don't want a pickup truck with 3 kids. I'm in the demo that can't and will likely never buy one until the kids move out. We also just like bigger cars for safety. I know it's different in CA, but that's the demo in flyover country outside of cities.

Fact is we cannot rely on electric either. Fuel can be stored to an extent if there was an attack on the country. If we went mostly EV we'd be fucked. I can't rely on the electric grid as someone that loses electric for hours 4-5 times a year.
24   komputodo   2022 May 11, 6:43pm  

RWSGFY says
He also gets satisfaction in knowing that driving an EV benefits the environment, he said. 

So it sounds like his main thing is the virtue signaling points no matter how misguided they are...Nothing new here.
25   komputodo   2022 May 11, 6:44pm  

Eman says
Not sure why some people keep referring to Tesla as a status symbol.

Virtue signaling points
26   RWSGFY   2022 May 11, 7:59pm  

Eman says

Not sure why some people keep referring to Tesla as a status symbol. Would this make driving a Porsche, MBZ, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac, etc….a status symbol?


Duh.
28   Onvacation   2022 Jul 9, 9:41pm  

There were no electric vehicles in Mad Max.
29   Onvacation   2022 Jul 9, 9:49pm  

Eman says

Would this make driving a Porsche, MBZ, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac, etc….a status symbol?

Yes.
Eman says

Is making $500k/year a status symbol compared to someone making $100k/year?

Yes.
Eman says

Is living in a $3M vs a $1M home a status symbol?

Yes.
30   The_Deplorable   2022 Jul 10, 1:16am  

There is one additional major cost for operating an electric vehicle: The cost of replacing the Lithium battery every 8 years.

In the news recently, a guy from Finland destroyed his electric vehicle after he learned he needed to spend $23,000 to replace the battery. Therefore, if you need $23,000 every 8 years to replace the battery then your annual cost for operating the electric vehicle is $2,875 - a very significant cost!

The_Deplorable
31   Eman   2022 Jul 10, 9:04am  

Onvacation says

Eman says


Would this make driving a Porsche, MBZ, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac, etc….a status symbol?

Yes.
Eman says


Is making $500k/year a status symbol compared to someone making $100k/year?

Yes.
Eman says


Is living in a $3M vs a $1M home a status symbol?

Yes.


Listen to this surgeon. Why does he need two Lamborghinis? It’s the mindset. Success breeds success. It gives people the drive, the motivation, something to look forward to everyday unlike waking up and going to a W2 job. They don’t drive it to impress anyone while others think otherwise.

https://youtu.be/lHocJAPJNGI
32   Eman   2022 Jul 10, 9:09am  

The_Deplorable says

There is one additional major cost for operating an electric vehicle: The cost of replacing the Lithium battery every 8 years.

In the news recently, a guy from Finland destroyed his electric vehicle after he learned he needed to spend $23,000 to replace the battery. Therefore, if you need $23,000 every 8 years to replace the battery then your annual cost for operating the electric vehicle is $2,875 - a very significant cost!

The_Deplorable


This is definitely the downside of owning an EV, thus, plan to fully depreciate the car in 8 years, or better yet 5 years, once the business tax deduction runs out. Better yet, buy a Tesla model X and depreciate it using the IRS Section 179. What a loophole.

By the way, replacing a Tesla battery doesn’t cost $23k. It’s less but still expensive. Just google and find out.
33   Eman   2022 Jul 10, 9:21am  

WookieMan says

Eman says
Not sure why some people keep referring to Tesla as a status symbol.

It is. So are the other models you mention. I simply don't give a shit though. I'm unique in that I give zero shits about gas prices as I don't have to. The higher they are the more my family makes.


Hey, don’t talk like that. Someone will call it “in-your-face smug. 🤭”

Your situation definitely doesn’t make sense to own EV’s.

With respect to Tesla as a status symbol, it doesn’t feel like it here in the Bay Area because they’re everywhere. It’s within reach for most average household income family here.

If you drive a Lamborghini or a Ferrari, then maybe yes, but folks, who drive these cars, drive them for a different reason. It’s a business expense. They want to experience life. These cars put a smile on their face and give them the drive to do better everyday. They don’t give a F about what others think while others think they show off. People don’t understand until they’re on the other side and look back.

My real estate mentee who drives a $335k Ferrari. It’s being paid for by his business. It’s a tax deduction. When the car is worth one month of your earnings, it doesn’t matter. He doesn’t drive it to show off to anyone. He’s experiencing life.

https://youtu.be/whYl5iM0wnI
35   GNL   2022 Aug 22, 12:10pm  

Patrick says







I'll eat my foot if that dark blue Ford gets 20mpg.
36   WookieMan   2022 Aug 22, 1:03pm  

GNL says

I'll eat my foot if that dark blue Ford gets 20mpg.

I get 12-16 depending if I'm towing with a Nissan Armada.

I don't care. The utility is amazing. It fits a bunch of kids and luggage without the trailer. With the trailer I can really do anything. Hell if I wanted to deck it out I've seen Armadas that do off roading stuff decently. Can't do much of that in IL though.

Either way, until a EV can do the stuff I mention, maybe I'd look into it. I'd rather get an Armada, Sequoia, Suburban or similar. I'll get the EV when the kids move out and the tech is even better. And keep a truck/large SUV for labor type activities.
37   Eric Holder   2022 Aug 22, 1:04pm  

GNL says


Patrick says






I'll eat my foot if that dark blue Ford gets 20mpg.



+1

Maybe going down a stretch of extremely flat freeway at 55 mpg. MAYBE. But realistically it should be something like a typical gas truck of that size (and on that kind of tires): 13-14 mpg in mixed driving.

Funny thing: he didn't have to exaggerate to make his point - it still true even at 14 mpg.
38   clambo   2022 Aug 23, 7:17am  

Most Teslas in California are running on natural gas burned at a power station somewhere.
In Northern California it's in Moss Landing.

Instead of pushing for battery cars, they should have encouraged natural gas cars.
The C02 coming out the back of a car can be recycled by the plants, trees, and phytoplankton on earth.
The batteriers of a Tesla can be recycled where and how? They're electronic toxic waste.

I would buy an electric car someday when I am really a geezer who won't drive long distances, nor about Baja back roads, etc.
39   rocketjoe79   2022 Aug 23, 8:58pm  

clambo says

Most Teslas in California are running on natural gas burned at a power station somewhere.
In Northern California it's in Moss Landing.

Instead of pushing for battery cars, they should have encouraged natural gas cars.
The C02 coming out the back of a car can be recycled by the plants, trees, and phytoplankton on earth.
The batteriers of a Tesla can be recycled where and how? They're electronic toxic waste.

I would buy an electric car someday when I am really a geezer who won't drive long distances, nor about Baja back roads, etc.

1) Natural Gas also requires processing, just like electricity.
2) Other stuff besides CO2 comes out of the exhaust of cars. One of the reasons you can't run your car with the garage door closed, as I can with my Tesla - such as when I want to cool the cabin before I drive. (Oh yes, I'm so wasteful!!)
3. Tesla Batteries are fully recyclable. This is already happening: https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling
4. The Cybertruck can handle those back roads. But it must be a terrible Truck, there are only 1.5 million+ reservations already.

Bottom line, I pay about 1/3 the price of gas to run my Tesla. No Oil changes, no Engine maintenance (Fuel Filters, EGR valves, Timing Chains, Exhaust, Transmissions, etc.) No fluid filler caps under the hood at all except windshield washer goop. Very few brake pads or brake fluid replacements - regen braking.

Just take a test drive. You'll be impressed.
40   Patrick   2022 Aug 23, 9:01pm  

But don't you feel a bit worried that it's reporting everywhere you drive and could be commandeered to lock the doors and take you where you might not want to go?

Those parts creep me out.
41   clambo   2022 Aug 23, 9:10pm  

Rocketjoe, we know you can't breathe car exhaust.
You also can't eat a lithium battery.
So what if Teslas are nice cars; nobody buys them, maybe they can't afford the payments.

The idea of electric motor drive instead of complex engines and transmissions is good. The Chevy Volt had electric drive and the small engine recharged the batteries.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars will replace battery cars someday.
42   rocketjoe79   2022 Aug 23, 10:17pm  

Yeah, I can only afford it because I invested in Tesla just before covid. Got lucky, went 5x, sold 80%, enough to afford the Tesla.
But I see a TON of new, veerrrry expensive-looking Trucks on the road. People just like trucks. I get it. It's a choice.

Yep, Hydrogen fuel cells are just around the corner - like Fusion Power. Hell, NASA & JPL have been working fuel cell tech for 50 years. If it was commercially viable, it would have been prime time long ago.
43   fdhfoiehfeoi   2022 Aug 24, 9:56am  

rocketjoe79 says

1) Natural Gas also requires processing, just like electricity.


Oil and gas come from the ground. Where does the electricity charging your car come from, lightning?

rocketjoe79 says

3. Tesla Batteries are fully recyclable.


So you're ok with blood minerals?
https://stopthesethings.com/2022/08/12/ethical-vacuum-re-batteries-all-electric-vehicles-drive-demand-for-blood-minerals/

rocketjoe79 says

Bottom line, I pay about 1/3 the price of gas to run my Tesla. No Oil changes, no Engine maintenance (Fuel Filters, EGR valves, Timing Chains, Exhaust, Transmissions, etc.) No fluid filler caps under the hood at all except windshield washer goop. Very few brake pads or brake fluid replacements - regen braking.


How much electricity do you pay? How much does a chip replacement cost, assuming there are chips available? This entire line of thinking makes no sense. We are SW people here. And as SW people we know the commonality in all SW is bugs. More SW is not a selling point for me.

My wife had an Altima for a short time. Lots more of the computer parts that you mentioned, and broke down all the time. And the failure was always related to those chips or electrical parts. Electrical problems in general are a pain in the ass. Even in my older cars, when I've had those issues in the past, I usually have to go to an electrical shop, and my regular mechanic at the time was a very seasoned veteran. Repairs for older cars are easier because parts are plentiful, and it's all physical mechanics. But how many people know how to diagnose Tesla logs, and replace chips? Can you even do it yourself, or does Tesla have it all locked down?

And I haven't even touched the smart grid control, remote shut-off, and other privacy issues of your vehicle, which are MASSIVE.
44   fdhfoiehfeoi   2022 Aug 24, 9:59am  

rocketjoe79 says

If it was commercially viable, it would have been prime time long ago.


Definitely not. See the two people recently killed who were working on alternative vehicles. Recently, because if you go back far enough, you can find cars that run on compressed air, and the inventor was either killed, or bought out, and the invention never saw the light of day.
45   RWSGFY   2022 Aug 24, 10:41am  

I find all the talk about spark
plugs this and timing chains that highly exaggerated. One of my jalopies has just crossed the 250,000 mark and I've changed spark plugs in it exactly 2 times so far. Took me about 15 minutes every time. The timing chain has NO service interval stated anywhere in the factory service manual. Air filter? Every 30K miles which roughly translates into 5 years with my current driving pattern. And takes less than 5 min to swap. I do remember swapping a camshaft position sensor 6-7 years ago, so yeah, these sensors are horrible pain and expense (paid $20 for the set of 3 and the other two are still waiting their turn). :)

PS. I did test-drive a base Model 3 and found the experience practically identical to the sedan I have: size, acceleration, handling.... Turns out even auto rag numbers for 0-60 match down to the first decimal. So I decided that I'm not missing out for now. Will revisit when the wheels fall off. :)
46   Eric Holder   2022 Aug 24, 11:25am  

How much are you paying to insure your Teslas? I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year).
47   Blue   2022 Aug 24, 11:29am  

Eric Holder says


I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year)

Actually its even more.
48   Eric Holder   2022 Aug 24, 11:44am  

Blue says

Eric Holder says



I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year)

Actually its even more.


HOLY MOTHER OF FUCKING SHIT!
49   B.A.C.A.H.   2022 Aug 24, 1:10pm  

Eric Holder says

How much are you paying to insure your Teslas? I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year).

Blue says

Actually its even more.

Status Symbol Prices, losers.
50   HeadSet   2022 Aug 24, 1:38pm  

B.A.C.A.H. says

Eric Holder says


How much are you paying to insure your Teslas? I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year).

Blue says


Actually its even more.

Status Symbol Prices, losers.

Is that a Tesla in California? A Model 3 is said to cost about $1,600/yr to insure.
https://insuraviz.com/vehicles/tesla/tesla-model-3-insurance/
51   Blue   2022 Aug 24, 1:48pm  

HeadSet says

B.A.C.A.H. says


Eric Holder says



How much are you paying to insure your Teslas? I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year).

Blue says



Actually its even more.

Status Symbol Prices, losers.


Is that a Tesla in California? A Model 3 is said to cost about $1,600/yr to insure.
https://insuraviz.com/vehicles/tesla/tesla-model-3-insurance/

Yes CA, try Plaid with all options on and adding a young driver costs a bit more.
52   SunnyvaleCA   2022 Aug 24, 1:56pm  

The internet seems to think a Tesla model 3 uses about 0.25 kWh per mile traveled. My current off-peak electric rate is about $0.40 per kWh. (Electricity pricing is convoluted here, but that's about what I calculate.) So, that means 10¢ per mile for the electric car. With the current "elevated" gasoline prices, a gasoline powered vehicle would need to get 50 MPG on $5 gasoline to match 10¢/mile. If gasoline goes down to $3 then you'd only need to get 30 MPG, which is easy for many modern cars and even some trucklets.
53   HeadSet   2022 Aug 24, 2:01pm  

Blue says

Yes CA, try Plaid with all options on and adding a young driver costs a bit more.

Yes, but insuring a Plaid is like insuring a Ferrari.
54   Eric Holder   2022 Aug 24, 3:08pm  

Blue says

HeadSet says


B.A.C.A.H. says



Eric Holder says




How much are you paying to insure your Teslas? I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year).

Blue says




Actually its even more.

Status Symbol Prices, losers.



Is that a Tesla in California? A Model 3 is said to cost about $1,600/yr to insure.
https://insuraviz.com/vehicles/tesla/tesla-model-3-insurance/


Yes CA, try Plaid with all options on and adding a young driver costs a bit more.


Young driver is a very special case.
58   Eric Holder   2022 Aug 31, 4:55pm  

NuttBoxer says




BUT HE SAVED SO MUCH MONEY ON GAS!!! AND DON'T FORGET THAT ACCELEREYSHUN!!!
59   HeadSet   2022 Aug 31, 6:06pm  

Eric Holder says

BUT HE SAVED SO MUCH MONEY ON GAS!!! AND DON'T FORGET THAT ACCELEREYSHUN!!!

Nope, not even acceleration. This is a hybrid, not a full electric.

« First        Comments 21 - 60 of 211       Last »     Search these comments

Please register to comment:

api   best comments   contact   latest images   memes   one year ago   random   suggestions   gaiste