patrick.net

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

richwicks says

You can't possibly think that a 6th week old fetus is the same thing as a 12 year old kid.

Life is life.

That's just foolish.

If you equate that the life of a human being at 11 years is the same as 3 months into a pregnancy, that's just silly.

You're just taking an absolute stance, an idealistic point of view, which is never reasonable.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Oh look, another screenshot instead of a reference to the ruling or any mention of it.

richwicks says

If you equate that the life of a human being at 11 years is the same as 3 months into a pregnancy, that's just silly.

What is the difference in terms of the right to not be killed?

Sure, they are at different stages of development, they might have different chances of surviving until adulthood, one is utterly dependent on its mother, but they are both human beings. I think that modern science makes a compelling argument that a new human being is created at conception. Where do you draw the line(s) to relax the prohibition against killing innocent humans?

yawaraf says

What is the difference in terms of the right to not be killed?

Because a human at 11 weeks of development doesn't even have a brain structure yet. It's more immoral to kill a mouse than it is to destroy that.

It works itself out anyhow. You want a world where women won't consider abortion? Let the ones that do abort their children.

There has been no outcry over the end of Roe versus Wade precisely because most people's ideas and beliefs are passed down by parents and the rabid pro abortion crowd had either no kids or much.less kids

It was a voluntary eugenics program. You can legislate what you think is morality or breed out immorality.

Given a choice, which do you prefer?
yawaraf says

I think that modern science makes a compelling argument that a new human being is created at conception. Where do you draw the line(s) to relax the prohibition against killing innocent humans?

I don't consider even 1/2 of adults human at this point and I'm not being flippant.

The nations criminal syndicate just compelled the entire nation to inject a poison into their bodies.. The cows and sheep don't even bleat.

I have tried my best to consider these things around me as humans and treat them with respect. The last 3 years has disabused me of any pretense any longer

Humans are very rare.

You may be right that abortionists are breeding themselves out. I am not concerned about laws, but about making a moral judgment.

You seem to make some strange assertions. Are you saying it's immoral to kill mice but it is not immoral to kill ½ of the adult human population?

As far as I know, in all societies killing innocent humans is prohibited. You say that some human beings should not have this protection. Which are those?

richwicks says

Because a human at 11 weeks of development doesn't even have a brain structure yet. It's more immoral to kill a mouse than it is to destroy that.

Oookay?

Have you ever had kids?

My kids (and all kids) didn't have much sentience or brain development for the first 3 months after they were born. All children up to several years are absolutely dependent on the parents for survival and would die within a few days if not provided food and shelter.

Frankly, I would rather have our abortion restrictions to be closer in line with most of Europe, as opposed to California, New York and Illinois that let abortions occur up to crowning for any reason - closer to what they do in North Korea and China.

yawaraf says

You may be right that abortionists are breeding themselves out. I am not concerned about laws, but about making a moral judgment.

I'm concerned about outcomes, exclusively. I only care about results. Who cares how you get the results you want?

yawaraf says

You seem to make some strange assertions. Are you saying it's immoral to kill mice but it is not immoral to kill ½ of the adult human population?

I'm saying it's less moral to kill a mouse than it is to kill an 11 week old fetus.

I'm also noting that most people simply aren't really people. They are just meat robots without a shred of consciousness at all, although they mimic it pretty well. I used to wonder just how 1930's Germany came into being, HOW could people allow that to happen (well, at least what I THOUGHT happened, it's a bit different than what we're told but anyhow...) - now I know. If our government said that Jewish people were spreading a disease and that the only way to prevent the spread of this deadly disease which turns out to be no worse than a mild cold was to confine them in concentration camps, 75% of the population would have done it, NO questions asked. Hitler attacked them as being anti-German, and traitors to the state of Germany, as well as being morally bankrupt - he went HIGH ground and didn't have to.

People are fucking stupid, and the more educated they are, the dumber they are. I have been denying this truth all my life thinking is what so fucking arrogant to even contemplate it can't POSSIBLY be right, but it is.

People have no morality, they have loyalty, and they substitute that for morality. The reason 1/2 the country argues that men can be women, and women are whatever an individual decides it is, is because the party dictates that, and they are loyal to their party. Now if the Republican party did something equally stupid, like claim we have to go to war in the middle east over a weapons of mass destruction program that frankly didn't matter if it existed or not, the Republicans would support it and they did.

People are subhman, most of them and I can't take it anymore. You can't reason with them.

In this discussion you are appealing to morality - well, good fucking luck with that! At most, you will reach 10% of the population. At most.

yawaraf says

As far as I know, in all societies killing innocent humans is prohibited. You say that some human beings should not have this protection. Which are those?

What are you talking about? Over 30,000 people have been killed in Gaza, 75% of them are women and children. Fuck off with this bullshit that "societies don't kill innocent people". We obviously do, and do it all the fucking time and you damned well know it. Our government just killed who knows how many people with a fraudulent vaccine - like anybody gives a shit.

Our nation killed about 1/2 million CHILDREN in Iraq with sanctions over a grueling course of 10 years, and when Hussein refused to abdicate, we went to war, and killed another 800,000 people - that's the real reason we went to war, and this after our nation was a fucking ally of Hussein the 1980's for 8 years as we egged on the Iran/Iraq War, funded it, and gave Iraq weapons of mass destruction we pretend to care about. Remember the "child soldiers of Iran" that our media whined and moaned about in the 1980's, that people PRETENDED to care about?

You're trying to appeal to morality. Good fucking luck with that.

My experience is that people don't have morality at all. Just call the kid the son of a terrorist or whatever. They don't really care.

socal2 says

Have you ever had kids?

Oh no. This world is too evil to have children. Your children can have it.

socal2 says

My kids (and all kids) didn't have much sentience or brain development for the first 3 months after they were born. All children up to several years are absolutely dependent on the parents for survival and would die within a few days if not provided food and shelter.

And this is part of the reason infanticide wasn't prohibited in several cultures. Apparently some of our more whacko states now.

socal2 says

Frankly, I would rather have our abortion restrictions to be closer in line with most of Europe, as opposed to California, New York and Illinois that let abortions occur up to crowning for any reason - closer to what they do in North Korea and China.

Frankly, I wish abortion could just be made unnecessary and it can be.

Here's a male contraceptive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_inhibition_of_sperm_under_guidance

Been used for decades in India, reversible, outpatient procedure, blocks the vas deferens from allowing sperm to pass. The FDA won't allow it in the United States because it would crater the current contraception companies built up around it. It will never be allowed.

We have solutions and have had solutions for DECADES. This is what vexes the SHIT out of me as an engineer, I have to hear all these people whining about these "problems" which had solutions 30 years ago. It's the same as "there outta be a law", when there IS a law, and the government just refuses to enforce it. Nobody gets angry that the law is just ignored, although they should.

There is a solution already made for almost EVERY problem, problems are simply manufactured today. We could be in a goddamned utopia if powerful people wanted it, and they don't.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

I really don't think anyone that doesn't have a kid should have an opinion on abortion in all reality. Not you UTF specifically as I don't know if you have kids.

Raising 3 humans now, 2 mine, one not mine. 6 of his brothers or sisters were killed by his mom. Kids change you and make you a better person. Work harder. My SIL took the easy way out. Rich doesn't understand. I get to raise #7. He made it. The other 6 were real. They're dead. If she had number 1 there likely wouldn't be 6 other dead kids. She'd have had to grow up.

For me this has nothing to do with religion. It's just simple human dignity. My SIL will always be a fucking piece of shit to me. I'll never respect her. She has baby remorse as a woman that killed so many. She sees her son. She knows she fucked up many times. She has to live with that. Ultimately it's not my body my choice at the end of the day. It's I fucked up and am not held accountable.

11 years without using contraceptives in any forms. No vasectomy. No condoms. It's not complicated. It's easy to not get pregnant and still have fun. There is no unwanted pregnancy the vast majority of time as shown with UTF's graph. There also is plan B pills. If you're feeling it and don't pull out, go to Target the next morning and have her pop one. That early you have no clue if there was conception. My bachelor buddies have them in their night stand.

I don't know, abortion is disgusting. I really don't think of you as a human if you support it outside of rape. Hell, I don't want a lot of people on this earth. Do I get a license to just kill them?

WookieMan says

I really don't think anyone that doesn't have a kid should have an opinion on abortion in all reality.

They are the people most aware of the decision.

I celebrate people who have children, but I don't trust their decision, if it's even a decision. I want the best for the next generation and I've spent a lifetime working on this. We will no matter what make a better world, but the thoughtfulness of people is not something I comprehended at 20.

I have people in my family that had unwanted pregnancies, that's a good kid. She's now married, as far as I know, a good husband, I wish for the best. My kindness regard to them, but I believe creating a new life should be informed and planned. We're not animals. Well some of us aren't. We're going through another sieve of selection.

I wish the best the best for the world, and I do my best to work toward that goal.

WookieMan says

I really don't think anyone that doesn't have a kid should have an opinion on abortion in all reality. Not you UTF specifically as I don't know if you have kids.

I shouldn't have an opinion about murder because I didn't have a relative who was murdered too?

Touchy subject? Yes, I picked that analogy on purpose as you will see...

A long time ago, I had a girlfriend who had an abortion w/o telling me. So that is reason numero uno why I don't have at least one kid. I had no say in it. So, ppl telling me that I shouldn't have an opinion on this because I don't kids...well, that's a touchy subject for me.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

A long time ago, I had a girlfriend who had an abortion w/o telling me. So that is reason numero uno why I don't have at least one kid. I had no say in it. So, ppl telling me that I shouldn't have an opinion on this because I don't kids...well, that's a touchy subject for me.

You fucked her, would you rather have kept the child?

I'm not trying to be cruel. It would have entirely changed your life if she had the kid. You must be aware of that.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

I shouldn't have an opinion about murder because I didn't have a relative who was murdered too?

A while ago, not too long ago, I realized I would be loathe to kill an animal, so for 25 years I refused to eat meat. My perspective has changed, but I still would not want to kill anything. Animals have a free will, they can experience happiness and displeasure, but ending their life suddenly and painlessly, maybe that's not wrong - but I could not kill my dog. That would be a betrayal of trust.

My sister's husband raises cows, slaughters them, and stores all the meat in a freezer. He is a good man, probably better than I am, but less aware. He's less troubled about the world. Knowledge is detrimental, crippling. Above all I wanted to know, and the more I know, the more painful it is. Our society slaughters people just as easily as it kills animals.

richwicks says

You can't possibly think that a 6th week old fetus is the same thing as a 12 year old kid.

Richwicks, you made an assertion, can you at least explain it? What is the difference between a fetus and a 12 year old that allows one to kill the first but not the second?

As far as societal norms, California law prohibits murder of a human being. As far as the right to live, I personally don't see any difference between humans in different stages of development.

187.
(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.
(b) This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply:
    (1) The act complied with the former Therapeutic Abortion Act (Article 2 (commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code) or the Reproductive Privacy Act (Article 2.5 (commencing with Section 123460) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code).
    (2) The act was committed by a holder of a physician’s and surgeon’s certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be death of the person pregnant with the fetus or where the pregnant person’s death from childbirth, although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or more likely than not.
    (3) It was an act or omission by the person pregnant with the fetus or was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the person pregnant with the fetus.
(c) Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the prosecution of any person under any other provision of law.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

A long time ago, I had a girlfriend who had an abortion w/o telling me. So that is reason numero uno why I don't have at least one kid. I had no say in it. So, ppl telling me that I shouldn't have an opinion on this because I don't kids...well, that's a touchy subject for me.

That's an outlier but I agree you should have an opinion in your case with not being told. You didn't have a choice and that's bull shit. My SIL did it 6 times. I can't stand to see her. I'm related by marriage to my wife, but she's a piece of shit. She sneaks in and undermines her kids behavior, my nephew and it pisses me off.

My main point was until you have a kid, you just don't know what it's like. That's why I said people without kids really have no say in this, male or female. You potentially could have had a kid. Maybe you wanted it or didn't, but you've at least experienced abortion. It sucks. Regardless of the relationship, it will always be a what could have been my life with a kid stuck in your brain.

My wife could never do it. We've talked about it extensively, obviously with my SIL. I just don't think it's right. I give no shits about if it's a week or 9 months. It's not right. And it's not at all about the woman unless it's going to kill her or rape. Which is rare. Two adults consented to have fun. Two adults should have a decision in the matter.

I wouldn't change a thing in my life. But I obviously didn't know you experienced that. So sorry if I brought up bad memories for you. Wasn't the intention. Once you have one it's life changing. I'm not religious either. I'm an ass hole. So that's how much it moves me. I guess to finalize my opinion better, if you don't have a child or experienced abortion, you really shouldn't talk about it. My mistake for not thinking about the dudes on that comment with regards to abortion.

I never really liked the thought of abortion but when I was younger I thought people get in bad situations and should have a choice. Fast foward decades later I think it should be illegal outside of rape and risk to woman's health.

If a woman wants to have an abortion she should have to go before a judge with the father to explain why. If a man or woman needs a second abortion they should be fixed like a dogs for acting like animals.

Was thinking about this the other day. If people who are against abortion are called pro-life, why aren't people for abortion called pro-death?

Everyone chooses his own label.

I don't think that abortionists consider the fetus to be alive or human but rather an inconvenience to be eliminated.

yawaraf says

Richwicks, you made an assertion, can you at least explain it? What is the difference between a fetus and a 12 year old that allows one to kill the first but not the second?

@yawaraf I don't know what to explain here. When was your first memory? I was 3 years old, I was being left with this strange woman as my parents went somewhere. Almost everybody's first memory is trauma.

Who was I before that? I have no memory of it. I wouldn't say I was human then.

yawaraf says

As far as societal norms, California law prohibits murder of a human being. As far as the right to live, I personally don't see any difference between humans in different stages of development.

Oh I absolutely do.

I'm an old man, if for whatever reason you had to make a choice of killing me, or some 8 year old kid, kill me. Without question.

yawaraf says

I don't think that abortionists consider the fetus to be alive or human but rather an inconvenience to be eliminated.

Different people have different viewpoints. What's changed me is realizing that all the people who were considered experts, simply aren't.

I don't know why you bring up special situations such as having to chose between killing an old man or a child, or of governments engaging in war and war crimes.

Fundamental rights are actually prohibitions:
- right to live - do not kill
- right to property - do not steal
- right to free speech - do not make laws that curtail speech
- right to bear arms - do not interfere with the manufacture and possession of weapons

If it is forbidden to kill a 12 year old on account that he is a human being, why not forbid the killing of a fetus on account that it is a human being?

yawaraf says

I don't know why you bring up special situations such as having to chose between killing an old man or a child, or of governments engaging in war and war crimes.

I can tell you.

If it's between you and a 5 year old kid being killed, which would you pick?

Me, without even hesitation. Would you rather die than a 5 year old kid? There's no question with me. I would never kill a child to survive.

yawaraf says

If it is forbidden to kill a 12 year old on account that he is a human being, why not forbid the killing of a fetus on account that it is a human being?

Because the question is, is it human?

I oppose abortion, I think contraception is VASTLY preferable, but failing that - who would abort their child? Maybe they shouldn't have kids, they'll be like them. You oppose them, we know for certainty that children adopt the beliefs and attitudes of their parents, you want to reduce abortion - don't you?

There's a line between a fertilized egg and a baby, I can't pretend I can judge where it's ethical of even if it is ethical ever. But if you're going to do it, do it as soon as possible. It really should be safe, legal, and rare, and preferably, as early as possible.

I know women that had a kid at 15, she (and him) didn't just fuck up their lives, they fucked up their kid as well. Adoption would have been better, but we have the propaganda box telling them that they are a stunningly brave and powerful woman and a government that forces the man involved to pay child support for 18 years. It's just poverty for everybody and both adults hated it, that poor kid. She fucked over the guy that married her. Ruined his life.

I have two adopted people in my family. I don't think they should have been terminated, after all I exist as a result - but I will not oppose it. If it was available at that time, I would have never known.

I oppose a non-nuclear family, and what a strange name that is. NUCLEAR family. Like it's space age or something - as if it's a new concept as a result of modernity, it's been around for thousands of years.

richwicks says

Maybe they shouldn't have kids, they'll be like them. You oppose them, we know for certainty that children adopt the beliefs and attitudes of their parents, you want to reduce abortion - don't you?

Maybe they should have kids? Ever think of that? Maybe just that one changes them as a woman or guy? Maybe they don't get 6 other abortions? Have a kid yourself? Or take one in? Stop talking out your ass on a topic you literally know nothing about. Zilch. Nada.

You talk about who you know. YOU haven't experienced it. I hang out daily with a couple where the wife had a kid at 15. I have two kids. I fucking know nothing about her experience even though she's a good friend. The kid is 20 and doing well instead of dead. He wouldn't exist by your logic. Oh and she lost a kid to a bacterial infection at 3 years old. I'm sure you know about how that feels too....

I hate this topic, but your take on it is so far off it's not even funny. As I've said, until you have a kid, I really don't respect anyone's opinion on the topic. Shut your mouth. I know a lot of people that did a lot of things, doesn't mean I've experienced it. It's just information. You got information and have no clue.

Patrick says

Yes. So many woman voters see unrstricted abortion as the only issue. This is why Biden keeps taking about preserving abortion rights and saboteur Lindsay Graham keeps proclaiming a national abortion ban.

https://notthebee.com/article/evil-pro-life-activist-lauren-handy-sentenced-to-5-years-in-prison-for-protest-at-abortion-clinic

Patrick says

And they are too stupid to figure out how to have sex without getting pregnant.

https://babylonbee.com/cleanArticle/heroes-abortionists-at-kamala-rally-rush-to-woman-suffering-medical-emergency-murder-her

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

3 Days? Where the hell are people shopping? Family of 5 here. If you're spending $130 in 3 days you're a common retard. I could get two cases of beer, handle of vodka for the wife and food for our kids. And not processed shit either.

People need to shop better. Or start cooking. I got 3 pork tenderloins for $9. Just grilled up 2. Delicious. Leftovers for lunch for a day or two. I still have one more to cook. 3-5 meals for $9. Green beans from the garden call it $1.

I know there's inflation, but you don't have to be a dumb ass. We get our booze and food for less than that in 3 days. For me I can make a spicy cheese and jalapeño quesadilla for 50¢. The kids don't go hungry. $130 is insane for 3 days. I could skip booze and take the family out 3 nights for that amount.