patrick.net

How it started....

richwicks says

Ceffer says

If her vagina accommodates a couple of hands, she has nothing to worry about and shouldn't be advertising. She should have named it "Keep Your Little Finger Off My Vagina".

I've heard this before with regard to the 14th amendment. There is no mention of a right to privacy in it. If there's ANY mention of this, it's in the 4th amendment where one has a right to the security of their papers and again unreasonable search and seizure - but I'll let people look up the exact text.

This is the 14th amendment. Where is privacy mentioned?

Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shal...

My reply.

GreaterNYCDude says

richwicks says

nor shall any state deprive any person of life

I'm generally against abortion. My view is if the fetus can survive outside of the womb, then it is for all practical purposes a person and therefore protected by the 14th ammdendment. Certainly late stage abortions or "partial birth" abortions, in this day and age, shouldn't be a thing. Anything in the last three months should be a "no go" zone. Thankfully less than 1% of the almost 700,000 abortions in this country in 2019 were late term.

(https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/ss/ss7009a1.htm)

Conversely early term (within the first 12 weeks) I don't love the idea but by the same cold logic, the fetus cannot survive outside the womb, so by my own argument abortion would be permissible. Data indicates that is where the majority of the procedures are conducted.

The middle three are a grey area. How does one define personhood? I define life to start at conception which is why I'm against it. Others do not, and although I do not agree with it, I can respect that different views exist.

In any event I'm going to attempt to put this in a new thread... I don't want to drag down the Funny picture thread any further, it's one of my favorites.

GreaterNYCDude says

My view is if the fetus can survive outside of the womb

So personhood is based upon technological progress, then. It is defined as starting at 6 months, then 5, than 4, etc...

Let's see what happens when assumptions are right or wrong.

Assumption #1: Life begins at conception. Abortion is illegal, i.e. murder.

Assumption proves to be correct: Millions of innocent lives are saved.
Assumption proves to be incorrect: Unwanted children are brought into the world, women lose freedom to live as they would want, unwanted child support responsibilities are created.

Assumption #2: Life begins at (fill in the blank) months.

Assumption proves to be correct: Less unwanted children brought into the world, women have the freedom to live their lives, less unwanted child support responsibilities.
Assumption proves to be incorrect: Millions of innocents are murdered.

Which is the worst possible outcome if you are wrong?

Millions of innocents being murdered sounds about as bad as it gets. That's the bottom line in either of your scenarios. It's just a matter of how many million.

To be clear, personally I belive that life starts at conception. But I recognize hat not all share this view.

My attempt here is to construct a constitutional argument against abortion. Science is generally agreed that the fetus is viable after 24 weeks. That would constitue personhood by any logocal definition. Location (inside womb or outside womb in an incubator in the NICU) shouldn't matter. Either you are a person or your not.

You want to roll back that definition and say one becomes a person at conception? Fine by me. But let's table that argument since there is no consensus on the matter.

You are also correct that by my logic, in time and with the advancement of medical science and technology this time frame could be continually be pushed back as progress is made. Agin, fine by me. End result would be fewer abortions.

The current Supreme Court may overturn Roe v. Wade, but until then it's the law of the land; minimizing the applicability of the practice is the best we can hope for.

As far as unwanted children, frankly one should be out fornicating here there and everywhere. If your gonna do the deed and spread your seed... but I digress. Far too many children are born into less than favorable circumstances. Honestly not sure how best to address this aspect of the issue. Plenty of bad parents out there, with or without abortion.

Upon conception it's a living being in my world, inside of another living being. That said, a lot of woman should not have children. Ever. If you're that woman then abort the fetus/baby/whatever. Cost me more financially if it's born and you suck as a mother or the father bails. Every kid born in a shitty home is more tax incentives, more welfare, more burden on the productive people.

I'm personally dealing with this right now with my nephew. It's amazingly difficult to say something like this, but I will, he should have been aborted. I love him like my own kid and there's a face and a name to him now, and I wouldn't change what we have. My SIL had no business having a kid though. None. We're fortunately in the position for him not to fall into the ghetto trap that too many young black boys/men fall into.

All this said we are now caring for a kid that needs food, shelter, schooling, activities, etc. My SIL's mistakes will cost my family $100k easily, maybe more. We're likely to have him until high school graduation. We get no tax benefits, while she does with the dependent tax benefits & government child support from baby daddy while he's in prison. It disgust me, but abortion does have its place. In my case I'm glad it didn't happen. Some people just don't have other family to rely on and the kid gets into dumb shit as they age.

@Wookieman. You've alluded to your situation off and on in other posts. I applauded you for stepping up and giving this kid a home, love, support and direction. I can't imagine what you and he have gone through.

Yes kids are costly. Wanted or unwanted, planed or unplanned. I love my kids but I often refer to them as "the most unproductive thing I've ever done." But I wouldn't change it. Circle of life and all that stuff.

I myself have never thought to look at the abortion issue in strictly financial terms. But your right. As disgusting as it is, the cost to snuff out a life in the womb is less than the cost to society of trying to raise said individual. Somone has to step up and take care of these children.

Personally I think they nees to bring back orphanages. The foster care system, although well intentioned, is in many ways problematic, but I digress...

In your case, you have stepped up to do what your SIL could not. Be a parent. And as far as I can gather from your other posts, a good one at that. I wish both you and this young man all the best in your future endavors.

WookieMan says

My SIL's mistakes will cost my family $100k

People who support abortion always make a point of saying anti-abortionists are all for supporting the unborn baby, but after it's born, their support goes away. Isn't that the way it's always been and should be? Is it a stretch of the imagination to believe that the newborn should be the responsibility of the preferably married to each other birth parents and not society at large or extended family as well?

WookieMan says

The foster care system

And I would add CPS to that, are what the term "slipped through the cracks" was invented for.

NDrLoR says

WookieMan says

My SIL's mistakes will cost my family $100k

People who support abortion always make a point of saying anti-abortionists are all for supporting the unborn baby, but after it's born, their support goes away. Isn't that the way it's always been and should be? Is it a stretch of the imagination to believe that the newborn should be the responsibility of the preferably married to each other birth parents and not society at large or extended family as well?

Fully agreed. I would put deadbeat mom and dad into forced labor to pay for the kid's govt provided support until they either take over or foster parents are found

GreaterNYCDude says

there is no consensus on the matter.

Yes, agree with all you have said. But if one cannot be sure when life begins, if we must make assumptions, then let's look at the outcomes if these assumptions are right and wrong, and proceed along the path of less harm. That is all I tried to illustrate.

I have spoken to a few women who have had abortions, and sadly, they did not care to think about when life begins. Was not a factor.

I find the phrase “unwanted children” to be both inaccurate and incredibly heartbreakingly sad. Maybe the woman feels (right now) that she doesn’t want the child growing within her body.

But another person may desperately want a child, any child, to love and raise as their own.

And the tragedy of BEING an “unwanted child” cannot be underestimated. How sad it is when our society labels millions of children with that ultimate perjorative every single year.

For those of you who still don’t get it, let’s replace the word “child” with “puppy.” How many unwanted puppies do you feel good about killing?

Shaman says

For those of you who still don’t get it, let’s replace the word “child” with “puppy.” How many unwanted puppies do you feel good about killing?

+1000

mell says

would put deadbeat mom and dad into forced labor to pay for the kid's govt provided support until they either take over or foster parents are found

Tie tubes and neuter

PeopleUnited says

Shaman says

For those of you who still don’t get it, let’s replace the word “child” with “puppy.” How many unwanted puppies do you feel good about killing?

+1000

I did dog fostering and rescue. We do it all the time. I've aborted a liter before. Didn't feel particularly good about it, but a dog that makes it into foster, they just won the fucking lottery. Doesn't make a difference anyhow, you're just selecting who lives basically, and the rest are left to die. You give them a good chance by giving them proper training, good confidence, and fix behavioral problems.

Shaman says

For those of you who still don’t get it, let’s replace the word “child” with “puppy.” How many unwanted puppies do you feel good about killing?

All of them. I fucking hate dogs.

richwicks says

How many unwanted puppies do you feel good about killing?

richwicks says

I've aborted a liter before. Didn't feel particularly good about it,

Point proven.

PeopleUnited says

richwicks says

How many unwanted puppies do you feel good about killing?

richwicks says

I've aborted a liter before. Didn't feel particularly good about it,

Point proven.

The only person that would feel good about terminating a life, is a psychopath. Do you want psychopaths having children? Look at the problem we have today because we allow psychopaths to even live, they are currently in complete and firm control of this nation, although people frustratingly deny it.

https://notthebee.com/article/report-shows-5-babies-were-born-alive-in-botched-abortions-in-minnesota-and-no-lifesaving-efforts-were-made

Report: 5 Minnesota babies born alive last year in botched abortions were left to die in opposition to the law

This is the problem.. taken to its logical conclusion abortion cam be seen as what it is... barbaric.

As a catholic I belive in life from conception.. bit being pragmatic I'd be willing to conceded early terminations in LIMITED circumstances. In this day and age there is no reason to get pregnant if you don't want to, absent rape. But there I go with my male privilege again.

Plus how does your location (in a womb or without) determine your personhood? Makes no logical sense. My read of the story is that the law attempts to address this but it was ignored.

There is a reason why when enumerating certain rights, Life came first. Then liberty. Then happiness. Your life may suck, but your still entitles to live.

https://babylonbee.com/news/time-traveling-ancient-mayan-priest-horrified-by-americas-abortion-numbers

My own position is that as soon as the fetus can feel or think anything at all, it's killing a person. I don't know what that point is, but it's pretty early.