patrick.net

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

But you probably didn't notice that US and NATO supplied howitzers have been bombing civilian targets in Donestsk for the past week or so.

Where is the proof? Notice how the picture has nothing in it except some pieces of broken concrete, making identifying the location impossible. Such an egregious war crime and no videos and one picture which could be taken anywhere in the world, including Syria or Detroit ? What exactly prevents them from filiming hours and hours of video and terrabytes of HD pictures from every angle like these pesky Ukie did when Ruscists bombed their maternity ward in Mariupol? Reminds me of that "hanged pregnant woman" video which somehow got lost by the great independent journalist with an impeccable integrity and of which only one blurry screengrab is paraded around - typical sloppy Ruscist bullshit aimed at gullible mouthbreathers. At least when Globohomo Nazi Joo Clown makes his fakes - it's in HD, shot from many angles, with vibrant colors, exact geolocation and dozens of very persuasive crisis actors showing real emotions better than any Hollywood star ever could.

And where's the proof of NATO shells hitting it? If they somehow identified the projectiles as 155mm NATO, why not show their homework to the world? Let me guess: the dog ate it?

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

SILENCE. That's because the Western mass media is ignoring it.

Yeah, right. Let's read what Lavrov has to say about it, shall we?

Here you go, from his recent interview to the BBC:

He then accused the BBC of not uncovering the truth of what had been happening to civilians in separatist-held areas of eastern Ukraine, "when civilians were being bombed by Kyiv's troops for eight years".

I stressed that over the course of six years, the BBC had many times contacted the leadership in the separatist-run areas asking for permission to go and see what was happening. We were refused entry every single time.

Russia has accused Ukraine of genocide. However, in 2021, eight civilians were killed in the rebel-held areas, according to self-proclaimed pro-Russian "officials", and seven the year before. While every death was a tragedy, I said, that did not constitute a genocide.

I suggested that if genocide really had taken place, then the Luhansk and Donetsk separatists would have been interested in us going there. Why were we not let in, I asked.

"I don't know," said Mr Lavrov.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61825525

Notice how he does not refute the "rebels" own data on civvies killed during preceding 2 years which was 15 in TOTAL. Before Putin's coming out on the real goals of the war (land grab a-la Peter the Great, in case you didn't follow) the supposed "constant shelling of civilians by the Ukrainian army" was cited as one of the main reasons for it. And turned out to be a pile of bullshit according to the data provided by the "rebels" themselves.

Notice how he does not refute the fact that they don't allow Western media to go and see the "evidence" of the supposed "genocide" and doesn't answer why this is happening? All the usually sharp-tongued Lavrov has to say is "I don't know".

Ceffer says

Russians are preserving infrastructure and providing humanitarian corridors,

Bd6r says

Ceffer says

Russians are preserving infrastructure and providing humanitarian corridors,

CGI! CGI!!! CGI!!!!

Eric Holder says

CGI! CGI!!! CGI!!!!

Don't forget CRISIS!ACTORS!
BTW Russians did provide humanitarian corridors in Chechnya, in order to shoot them up and kill Chechens more efficiently.

And some more videos with obviously CRISIS!ACTORS! because Russians would NEVER do that:

https://thechechenpress.com/genocide/12457-obstrel-rossijskimi-okkupantami-g-groznyj.html

Eric Holder says

can you explain the joke?

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

can you explain the joke?

Alleged Russian IFV is hit, meaning that the squad inside it now has to walk like Infantry, not ride like Mechanized Infantry.

Meanwhile AFU casualties are 500+ per day:

Mr Podolyak's suggestion that 100 to 200 Ukrainian soldiers are dying each day is higher than previous estimates. On Thursday, Ukraine's Defence Minister, Oleksii Reznikov, said Ukraine was losing 100 soldiers a day, and 500 more were injured.

The differing casualty figures are a sign of how difficult it is to get precise information from the battlefield.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61742736

Since you can safely quadruple the number of KIA as WIA to get total casualties. Maybe a bit more to account for MIA , AWOL, and POW.

https://dossier.substack.com/p/welcome-to-ukraine-celeb-visits-banned

Far from condemning this behavior, or insisting that Kiev hits the brakes on the fascist behavior, the West continues to embrace the Ukrainian regime as the Current Thing.

Weapons and money continue to flow into the country, and high-ranking western officials, including famous celebrities, continue to align themselves with the troubled government there.

U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson, Hollywood celebrity Ben Stiller and U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland have visited Ukraine, which we are told is in a day to day fight for its very survival. None were wearing protective gear in an apparent war zone.

Patrick says

U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson, Hollywood celebrity Ben Stiller and U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland

They come back with Zelensky's cum on their faces, showing it off as a badge of honor.

DC is sending an old school 'Nazi chaser' to examine human rights violations, presumably by the Russians. LOL! I wonder how he is going to pull that off surrounded by Nazis.
https://t.me/asbmil/2305

Some oil rigs have been liberated from the liberators: http://www.hisutton.com/Burning-Russian-Oil-Rig-Detected.html

Just when you learned to prononce the weird-sounding name of another great commander leading the wildly successful Speshual Military Operashion....

Four months into Russia’s Ukraine offensive, President Vladimir Putin conducted his second purge of its high command. Gen. Sergei Vladimirovich Surovkin was moved from the top job in Russia’s air and missile forces to the leadership of the Ukraine command after the sacking of Gen. Aleksander Dubrinikov.

https://www.debka.com/putin-purges-ukraine-army-command-moves-air-missile-forces-chief-gen-surovkin-into-top-post/

Patrick says

https://dossier.substack.com/p/welcome-to-ukraine-celeb-visits-banned

This substack is one of the most stupid takes on Ukraine I have read. Banning a pro-Russian party during war with Russia seems like a correct thing to do. etc etc etc

Patrick says

Eric Holder says

Some oil rigs have been liberated from the liberators

In this week's "Duh, wasn't this obvious?"


original link

Eric Holder says

Some oil rigs have been liberated from the liberators: http://www.hisutton.com/Burning-Russian-Oil-Rig-Detected.html

Oil
Is
A
Fungible
Commodity

The ONLY THING THIS WILL DO is drive energy prices up. This won't hurt RUSSIA which is ENTIRELY ENERGY INDEPENDENT, like the United States was, up until Joe Biden took office.

Jesus. If Russian energy goes offline, Russia will stop exporting oil to India and China, this means India and China will then compete (more) with Europe and the United States for energy.

A LOT Of Russian oil production will have to be destroyed before RUSSIA is harmed.

EVERYTHING that was claimed by our bullshit propaganda media that Trump was going to do, is going on now. Congratulations. This is the establishment MORONS that we have in charge. Enjoy.

You're celebrating the fucking over of yourself.

Bd6r says

This substack is one of the most stupid takes on Ukraine I have read. Banning a pro-Russian party during war with Russia seems like a correct thing to do.

Why would you have to ban a pro-Russian party in Ukraine, if the Ukrainians, in a majority, are in favor of the Ukrainian war effort against Russia?

MAYBE, most Ukrainians are AGAINST this stupid fucking war. But hard to tell. I do know that it's mandatory for all men of fighting age to fight. They have conscription for a military effort that appears to be a hopeless cause. They're going to die, and it won't change the outcome. It MIGHT reduce the power of the Russian military, but that's it, and if the US and Russia get in a tangle, it won't matter, because it will be a nuclear exchange.

Eric Holder says

Just when you learned to prononce the weird-sounding name of another great commander leading the wildly successful Speshual Military Operashion....

Four months into Russia’s Ukraine offensive, President Vladimir Putin conducted his second purge of its high command. Gen. Sergei Vladimirovich Surovkin was moved from the top job in Russia’s air and missile forces to the leadership of the Ukraine command after the sacking of Gen. Aleksander Dubrinikov.

What's funny is that people think it's a sign of weakness when people are fired for not doing a good enough job.

Nobody in the US government is EVER fired, no matter how much they fuck up.

Bd6r says

Ceffer says

Russians are preserving infrastructure and providing humanitarian corridors,

What's that a picture of? Post WWII Dresden after the Allies bombed it? Are you suggesting this is a modern picture, taken in 2022? What's wrong with an authentic picture?

If you wanted to make it more believable, you should have shown some photographs of maybe Bosnia or Serbia - although those are kind of old. Parts of Libya would have been convincing - maybe even Syria or Lebanon.

Bd6r says

Patrick says

https://dossier.substack.com/p/welcome-to-ukraine-celeb-visits-banned

This substack is one of the most stupid takes on Ukraine I have read. Banning a pro-Russian party during war with Russia seems like a correct thing to do. etc etc etc

not familiar with them.
but kind of undermines that whole “we are a Democracy” thing a lot.

richwicks says

Why would you have to ban a pro-Russian party in Ukraine, if the Ukrainians, in a majority, are in favor of the Ukrainian war effort against Russia?

Isn't it fun to say things that pretend to be logical but aren't in any way of form?

I'll give you a hint: countries that banned the Nazi party during WW2 didn't do it because majority in those countries supported Germany. You can scrape up the remaining grey cells to answer your own misguided question.

Ceffer says

DC is sending an old school 'Nazi chaser' to examine human rights violations, presumably by the Russians. LOL! I wonder how he is going to pull that off surrounded by Nazis.

@Ceffer I see you've been dumpster diving again. Just so you know: the snapshot that you attached quotes Mizintsev. Google him (or duckduckgo). He's the piece of shit who bombed the theater in Mariupol. You know, the one that was double-purposed as a shelter. He's the piece of shit who's done the same to the maternity hospital in there. He's the piece of shit who first made his bones by committing atrocities in Syria (i.e. Aleppo) But what can be more reputable than Hague material who now goes out of his way to shift the blame, amiright?

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Why would you have to ban a pro-Russian party in Ukraine, if the Ukrainians, in a majority, are in favor of the Ukrainian war effort against Russia?

Isn't it fun to say things that pretend to be logical but aren't in any way of form?

What's illogical about what I stated?

Again, just saying I'm wrong doesn't explain how I'm wrong. I MIGHT be wrong, and if I am, I don't currently understand how I'm wrong, so I need to explained to me in order for me to reconsider my position.

mostly reader says

I'll give you a hint: countries that banned the Nazi party during WW2 didn't do it because majority in those countries supported Germany. You can scrape up the remaining grey cells to answer your own misguided question.

What countries did? The United States didn't have a Nazi party until 1959.

You don't have to censor or ban anything, if they are wrong. You just explain how they are wrong.

Censorship in the United States today is being done to protect the radical left which are basically communists today. Censorship was imposed in the early 2000's to protect the far right, which was toying with being fascists - that's why we have the Patriot Act and "Homeland" Security, and why 5 years of comments on Yahoo! under news stories about the Iraq War "mistake" were all deleted. Because it was "a mistake" despite millions of posts explaining the situation.

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

can you explain the joke?

Mechanized brigade ( 4,000 soldiers in tanks and trucks) turns into a platoon (30 men on foot) of survivors running from their burning vehicles.

richwicks says

You don't have to censor or ban anything, if they are wrong.

This, right there. This is bunch of crap and you know it. Because PROPAGANDA WORKS! That's why MSM distorts reality in most stupid ways, and it still works. That's why readers here on patnet get (rightfully) aggravated when they see MSM distorting reality, and bring it here, and talk about it.

Propaganda demoralizes, seeks and exploits mental weaknesses, destroys the fabric of society. That it works is not even up for debate. That's why there was Goebbels, and that's why there are Kiselev and Solovyov - all 3 contributed to converting their respective nations into bunch of fucking zombies.

The only question is "to what degree". To what degree does propaganda work, how much exactly does it destroy the fabric of society. Can the society withstand that damage because it's in the right and the other side is in the wrong? You know what? The answer is irrelevant if there's FUCKING WAR going on. Ukraine has done exactly what needed to be done, and they should've done it sooner.

But of course you know it, being propagandist yourself and all that. You are just being dishonest, and I'm just pointing out the obvious.

It's somewhat cute when you suggest that Ukraine shouldn't have banned pro-Rashist parties. Almost as cute as this one pro-Rashist stooge I know tried to convince me that US Government shouldn't have banned Kaspersky from federal IT departments.

mostly reader says

@Ceffer I see you've been dumpster diving again. Just so you know: the snapshot that you attached quotes Mizintsev. Google him (or duckduckgo). He's the piece of shit who bombed the theater in Mariupol. You know, the one that was double-purposed as a shelter. He's the piece of shit who's done the same to the maternity hospital in there. He's the piece of shit who first made his bones by committing atrocities in Syria (i.e. Aleppo) But what can be more reputable than Hague material who now goes out of his way to shift the blame, amiright?

Why do you automatically trust what the United States government says when they lie to you so often?

Where's the Ghost of Kiev? Well, all those soldiers died valiantly on Snake Island.

We'll start to know what happened in this stupid fucking war after the war is over, and not before. Until then, it's official government policy to lie, which is why the Smith Mundt-Act was updated under Obama, the asshole that overthrew Ukraine in 2014.

richwicks says

Why do you automatically trust what the United States government says when they lie to you so often?

I don't automatically trust what US government says. I kinda told you that quite a few times. Poor memory? Or multiple actors with poorly managed communication behind one handle? That would also explain constant requests for backquotes.

richwicks says

We'll start to know what happened in this stupid fucking war after the war is over, and not before.

We DO know what's happening in this stupid fucking war. Unless of course you get your data from Gonzalo Lira and such. On large scale, that is. Little things may be hidden by the fog of war, but bird's-eye view has been clear for a while. The only debatable thing at this point is who's going to prevail.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Why do you automatically trust what the United States government says when they lie to you so often?

I don't automatically trust what US government says. I kinda told you that quite a few times. Poor memory? Or multiple actors with poorly managed communication behind one handle? That would also explain constant requests for backquotes.

I don't care what people claim, I'm pointing out what you do. Everything you say with regard to the Russian/Ukraine conflict, and I mean absolutely everything you say, entirely aligns with the US "narrative". Everything, without exception.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

We'll start to know what happened in this stupid fucking war after the war is over, and not before.

We DO know what's happening in this stupid fucking war.

No we don't.

mostly reader says

Unless of course you get your data from Gonzalo Lira and such.

I've listened to him, that doesn't mean his word is gold. He COULD be a Russian propagandist. Rachael Maddow and Steven Colbert turned out to be propagandists for the Democratic party and I used to listen to those two assholes. Once I determine what Lira is, then I can decide if he was just another asshole stringing people along.

In this case, propaganda doesn't matter anyhow. It doesn't matter what I believe or think. The purpose of propaganda in this war is to give support for our government to send billions to Ukraine which is obviously stolen, it doesn't matter what I believe, they're going to do it anyhow. Neocons are anti-Russian and they run this country. Neocons though are just mostly common criminals, they love money more than they hate Russia.

mostly reader says

On large scale, that is. Little things may be hidden by the fog of war, but bird's-eye view has been clear for a while.

No, "little things" are not hidden by the fog of war. Tremendously huge things are. It wasn't a "small thing" after all that Hussein didn't have a weapons of mass destruction program. That wasn't a trivial little "oops". That was the fundamental reason for that war, or that was the lie anyhow.

You had the temerity to deny that Victoria Nuland was picking out the next leader of Ukraine in her intercepted phone call with Geoffrey Pyatt. It was at this point, I decided that your opinion about anything in this situation was worthless. If you can't realize the US government just did a coup when it has been caught RED HANDED, what thinking of yours is worth considering? It's not a trivial minor point the US overthrew Ukraine in 2014. It's no a coincidence that a conflict immediately happened between Eastern and Western Ukraine after that coup. That's not a minor thing.

I was dumbfounded by your ridiculous and childish denial and I will never treat you seriously again when it comes to this subject. I will listen to you, but unless you have references and original information that is cited, I don't consider your supposed thinking worthwhile. I don't believe you think when it comes to this conflict.

Russia, supposedly, has dedicated 10% of its forces to this conflict, if I'm to believe what I'm hearing. Could be a lie - we'll see. But the Russian economy isn't imploding, they have stated YEARS ago they are willing to fight a war of attrition with the west, they have RECENTLY stated that they regard this war as a proxy war between the West and Russia, and that inclusion of Ukraine is an "existential threat" to the survival of Russia.

Now, if that's true, IF it's true, Russia will use nuclear weaponry if they have to. If they are cornered, they will cut off energy to all Western nations, and if that doesn't work, they will resort to nuclear weaponry. But I don't think they'll have to do that. They are still playing with kid gloves. They could cut off energy supplies today, and they haven't. They are FLUSH with cash since the energy prices have skyrocketed. They're going to take their sweet goddamned time with this. Winter in Europe will be interesting.

And all this shit is happening because Victoria Nuland, the cunt wife of the Neocon Robert Kagan, for some inexplicable reason hasn't been jailed - well, not really inexplicable when you realize Neocon scum has been in complete control of this nation for nearly 20 years, and only lost a little influence under Trump - minor amounts of influence.

richwicks says

I don't care what people claim, I'm pointing out what you do. Everything you say with regard to the Russian/Ukraine conflict, and I mean absolutely everything you say, entirely aligns with the US "narrative". Everything, without exception.

You know where else my opinion happens to align with "the narrative", at least for the most part? Off the bat: 1) Laws of physics. 2) Classification of Hitler as a historical figure 3) Pol Pot and his effect on Cambodia. I didn't rely on US sources to study those subjects either (I didn't even have access to US sources when I studied those subjects). Likewise, I didn't need to rely on US sources to understand the Russian war against Ukraine. But guess what? Good news! Apparently, US narrative is not always wrong.

You claim that you are an engineer. You then MUST have at least basic understanding of inductive reasoning and what's required to make it valid. You MUST understand that you can't jump from particular to general without some serious ground work. Yet you don't seem to grasp the concept. Interesting.

richwicks says

You had the temerity to deny that Victoria Nuland was picking out the next leader of Ukraine in her intercepted phone call with Geoffrey Pyatt.

Bullshit. You lie. Again. I never said such a thing. I never denied that Victoria Nuland was picking out the next leader of Ukraine. Aren't you tired of lying?

However, I did deny that "US did a coup" (your words, not mine). More precisely, I said that there's no evidence to that but there's circumstantial evidence to the opposite. That's different. I also gave my reasons, and asked you a question which destroys your narrative. You dodged it back then and keep dodging it. I can repeat it here: knowing that the revolution was already going on for some months (another thing on which I had to educate you), and knowing that Nuland's line was compromised, how come there are no recordings of US actually preparing the revolution (that would be doing the coup)? Takeaway from the leaked conversation was that US is injecting itself into the situation which had already unveiled. Not that US created the situation. You must understand that Russian produced worst of the worst of those recordings. How come that's the worst that they produced?

I also pointed out this propaganda technique: pick out a fact and turn it into something that it's not, yet sounds similar. This allows to build a narrative which is not based on reality, but appears as if it is. You use this technique a lot.

richwicks says

I was dumbfounded by that...

Slow-witted are surrounded by wonders. It's their blessing, and a constant source of entertainment.

Interesting piece, including how French Reporters were treated by their own Media Outlets during the Donbas war:
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-russo-ukraine-war-through-the-lens-of-the-media-myths-and-truth-part-i/

The likely outcome:

While once viewed as a realistic outcome, by now it should be obvious that this is impossible. Just as Ukraine lacks the ability to liberate all its pre-2014 territory, it also lacks the ability to liberate the recently conquered territory in the Donbas or along the Azov coast. Unlike in the north of Ukraine, these territories are central to Russian interests in Ukraine and, as such, Russia simply will not withdraw from them as it withdrew from Kyiv earlier in the war. Nor will Ukrainian forces – themselves, it should be noted, suffering terrible attrition all along the battle front and growing weaker with each passing day – be strong enough to compel them to do so. No, like the previous two scenarios, this one is simply an impossibility.

And that leaves only one other conceivable outcome: a fragmented and partly dismembered Ukraine, neither fully part of the West nor entirely within the Russian sphere of influence. A Ukraine fragmented in that the whole of the Donbas and perhaps other territories will be left beyond Kyiv’s control; partly dismembered in that Crimea will remain part of Russia (at least in Russian eyes); and not fully part of the West in that it will not be free to join NATO or even to have a meaningful partnership with the EU. Simply put, this outcome is not only not impossible, it’s not even improbable.

And when this final scenario comes to pass, who will have won the war in Ukraine?

Well, it won’t be Ukraine. While such an outcome will satisfy the basic existential goals of Kyiv, it will be a far cry from the more maximalist ambitions expressed both before and after Feb. 24. No, when this scenario inevitably comes to pass, it will clearly be a defeat for Kyiv.
...
All of which suggests that, at the end of the day, it might be necessary to tweak Holmes’s aphorism just a bit. At least when it comes to thinking about the possible outcomes of the war in Ukraine, perhaps it ought to read something more like: “When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable unpalatable, must be the truth.”

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/3509458-the-unpalatable-truth-in-ukraine/

mostly reader says

richwicks says

You had the temerity to deny that Victoria Nuland was picking out the next leader of Ukraine in her intercepted phone call with Geoffrey Pyatt.

Bullshit. You lie. Again. I never said such a thing. Aren't you tired of lying?

First:

I want an answer from you to a simple question:

Did the United States instigate a coup d'état in Ukraine in 2014 to install Arseniy Yatseniuk and remove Viktor Yanukovych? Yes or no?

Let's make certain we are in agreement of what your opinion is.

Second:

We've talked about this MULTIPLE TIMES.

https://patrick.net/post/1343769/2022-02-24-greeted-like-liberators-ukraine?start=747#comment-1833967
https://patrick.net/post/1343769/2022-02-24-greeted-like-liberators-ukraine?start=799#comment-1835192
https://patrick.net/post/1345280?start=26#comment-1844159

I can find many more if you ask. Those took me a couple minutes to find. This subject has come up with your at least a dozen times, to the point I just considered you legitimate insane, legitimately. I'm not just saying "oh you're crazy" - if you actually believe the US didn't overthrow Ukraine I think you're mentally ill. I don't believe you're mentally ill though.

Many people have expressed their opinion you're a troll. A troll would be the most benign viewpoint I could give you.

You are the only person where I skim what you write, because I don't believe you have any integrity or honesty. You will deny what you previously said. It's like talking to a white house official - it's pointless when they are perfectly willing to lie. That's what you are to me. A completely dishonest person, with zero integrity that is absolutely shameless. That's your strength, a complete lack of integrity or any sort of shame.

There's some people that claim Satanism is real, and spells can be cast over the population where you can lead them in any direction through misdirection and lying. It really seems like the White House believes that, do you? You seem to.

richwicks says

Did the United States instigate a coup d'état in Ukraine in 2014 to install Arseniy Yatseniuk and remove Viktor Yanukovych? Yes or no?

I don't know. Probably not. Someone who operates with the same information as I do, yet says with confidence that it was, is a likely propagandist. That means you. Are we clear on that?

You, yet again, ignored the inconvenient question.

richwicks says

Second:

We've talked about this MULTIPLE TIMES.

Every single link that you produced supports my statement about what was said and what wasn't. Not yours. Why do you bother? Quit while you are behind.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Did the United States instigate a coup d'état in Ukraine in 2014 to install Arseniy Yatseniuk and remove Viktor Yanukovych? Yes or no?

I don't know. Probably not.

You don't know? Are you fucking serious? "Probably not"?

richwicks says

Did the United States instigate a coup d'état in Ukraine in 2014 to install Arseniy Yatseniuk and remove Viktor Yanukovych? Yes or no?

That's your fucking answer? "Probably not"?

You're not "clear" on it?

How so? How did Victoria Nuland in a taped phone called with Geoffrey Pyatt, where they discussed who the next leader of Ukraine would be, who Victoria Nuland named, and who became the next "leader" of Ukraine - not clearly demonstrate that the US installed the leader of Ukraine after Viktor Yanukovich was driven from power?

What's so difficult here?

This is a pretty ridiculous fence to sit on.

Here's the full transcript, AGAIN which was posted on youtube here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSxaa-67yGM#t=89

On Feb 4, 2014. Viktor Yanukovych, the ousted ELECTED leader of Ukraine fled on Feb 22, 2014 - 2 weeks, and 4 days before the audio was leaked to the public. Underlined and bold is mine to point it out.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Voice thought to be Pyatt's: I think we're in play. The Klitschko [Vitaly Klitschko, one of three main opposition leaders] piece is obviously the complicated electron here. Especially the announcement of him as deputy prime minister and you've seen some of my notes on the troubles in the marriage right now so we're trying to get a read really fast on where he is on this stuff. But I think your argument to him, which you'll need to make, I think that's the next phone call you want to set up, is exactly the one you made to Yats [Arseniy Yatseniuk, another opposition leader]. And I'm glad you sort of put him on the spot on where he fits in this scenario. And I'm very glad that he said what he said in response.

Jonathan Marcus: The US says that it is working with all sides in the crisis to reach a peaceful solution, noting that "ultimately it is up to the Ukrainian people to decide their future". However this transcript suggests that the US has very clear ideas about what the outcome should be and is striving to achieve these goals. Russian spokesmen have insisted that the US is meddling in Ukraine's affairs - no more than Moscow, the cynic might say - but Washington clearly has its own game-plan. The clear purpose in leaking this conversation is to embarrass Washington and for audiences susceptible to Moscow's message to portray the US as interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs.
Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea.

Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?

Nuland: My understanding from that call - but you tell me - was that the big three were going into their own meeting and that Yats was going to offer in that context a... three-plus-one conversation or three-plus-two with you. Is that not how you understood it?

Pyatt: No. I think... I mean that's what he proposed but I think, just knowing the dynamic that's been with them where Klitschko has been the top dog, he's going to take a while to show up for whatever meeting they've got and he's probably talking to his guys at this point, so I think you reaching out directly to him helps with the personality management among the three and it gives you also a chance to move fast on all this stuff and put us behind it before they all sit down and he explains why he doesn't like it.

Nuland: OK, good. I'm happy. Why don't you reach out to him and see if he wants to talk before or after.

Pyatt: OK, will do. Thanks.

Nuland: OK... one more wrinkle for you Geoff. [A click can be heard] I can't remember if I told you this, or if I only told Washington this, that when I talked to Jeff Feltman [United Nations Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs] this morning, he had a new name for the UN guy Robert Serry did I write you that this morning?

Jonathan Marcus: An intriguing insight into the foreign policy process with work going on at a number of levels: Various officials attempting to marshal the Ukrainian opposition; efforts to get the UN to play an active role in bolstering a deal; and (as you can see below) the big guns waiting in the wings - US Vice-President Joe Biden clearly being lined up to give private words of encouragement at the appropriate moment.
Pyatt: Yeah I saw that.

Nuland: OK. He's now gotten both Serry and [UN Secretary General] Ban Ki-moon to agree that Serry could come in Monday or Tuesday. So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and to have the UN help glue it and, you know, Fuck the EU.

Jonathan Marcus: Not for the first time in an international crisis, the US expresses frustration at the EU's efforts. Washington and Brussels have not been completely in step during the Ukraine crisis. The EU is divided and to some extent hesitant about picking a fight with Moscow. It certainly cannot win a short-term battle for Ukraine's affections with Moscow - it just does not have the cash inducements available. The EU has sought to play a longer game; banking on its attraction over time. But the US clearly is determined to take a much more activist role.
Pyatt: No, exactly. And I think we've got to do something to make it stick together because you can be pretty sure that if it does start to gain altitude, that the Russians will be working behind the scenes to try to torpedo it. And again the fact that this is out there right now, I'm still trying to figure out in my mind why Yanukovych (garbled) that. In the meantime there's a Party of Regions faction meeting going on right now and I'm sure there's a lively argument going on in that group at this point. But anyway we could land jelly side up on this one if we move fast. So let me work on Klitschko and if you can just keep... we want to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help to midwife this thing. The other issue is some kind of outreach to Yanukovych but we probably regroup on that tomorrow as we see how things start to fall into place.

Nuland: So on that piece Geoff, when I wrote the note [US vice-president's national security adviser Jake] Sullivan's come back to me VFR [direct to me], saying you need [US Vice-President Joe] Biden and I said probably tomorrow for an atta-boy and to get the deets [details] to stick. So Biden's willing.

Pyatt: OK. Great. Thanks.

Jonathan Marcus: Overall this is a damaging episode between Washington and Moscow. Nobody really emerges with any credit. The US is clearly much more involved in trying to broker a deal in Ukraine than it publicly lets on. There is some embarrassment too for the Americans given the ease with which their communications were hacked. But is the interception and leaking of communications really the way Russia wants to conduct its foreign policy ? Goodness - after Wikileaks, Edward Snowden and the like could the Russian government be joining the radical apostles of open government? I doubt it. Though given some of the comments from Vladimir Putin's adviser on Ukraine Sergei Glazyev - for example his interview with the Kommersant-Ukraine newspaper the other day - you don't need your own listening station to be clear about Russia's intentions. Russia he said "must interfere in Ukraine" and the authorities there should use force against the demonstrators.

Here's another question

Do you believe that if Ukraine didn't have a "revolution" in 2014, that Eastern and Western Ukraine wouldn't have ended up in a conflict?

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Second:

We've talked about this MULTIPLE TIMES.

Every single link that you produced supports my statement about what was said and what wasn't. Not yours

Here's ONE link and a quote from it:

richwicks says

mostly reader says
And yet you run away from a simple question: now that we know that her line was compromised,

I know who and what NuLand and Kagan are, I've followed her for years. She's a corrupt criminal monster.

In any case, I don't care to spend time convincing you of, what is to me and many others, blatantly obvious.

Of course the US overthrew Ukraine. Nuland has been verbally attacking Russia for near a decade. The coup followed the same basic features of Ajax and PBSuccess. Take over media, foment astroturf unrest, demonize the leader, try to get them to react, fake the reaction if necessary.

Do you deny the US overthrew Ukraine in 2014?

I'm certain they were working on this for months, if not years, that's how the RUSSIANS knew to tap Victoria Nuland's phone to catch the cunt in the act. You're like those weenies that bitch and moan about Julian Assange for telling you the truth. I don't care if Lucifer himself tapped Nuland's call, it was a legitimate conversation, it happened.

I don't think you're stupid, I don't believe anybody can be this stupid. Why do you deny the US overthrew Ukraine? We have information that puts them them DEAD TO RIGHTS, but you sit on the fence, you pretend not to know.

This is like some engineer in Silly Con Valley telling me "the vaccines are safe and effective although my son just died of sudden cardiac arrest, but it would have been much worse if he didn't get the booster".

When Russia lies, it doesn't effect me. When my nation lies it costs my nation billions of dollars and gets my countrymen killed.

You know what this war means between Ukraine and Russia? Nothing. It's not our fucking concern, EXCEPT our fucking asshole government overthrew Ukraine in 2014. Our government keeps doing STUPID SHIT that we need to deal with. Putin isn't our enemy, they are in Washington DC, Langley Virginia, and Silicon Valley. They are the stupid assholes fucking up this nation.

Gasoline will be $10 a gallon by the end of the year, "it's the Putin Price hike" though, right?

The Neocons need to be strung up by the ankles because they are the greatest threat to this nation. Not "Putler". Everybody is Hitler that the Neocon fucktards want to spend a few trillion dollars on removing and asshole twats mindlessly rally around it, because they're retarded and easily manipulated.

mostly reader says

However, I did deny that "US did a coup"

And this is why I don't take you seriously. This is literally the most obvious plain coup d'état in world history. This is the most obvious blatant example, ever, in history. Nothing else comes remotely close.

Even if Victoria Nuland said "OK, this is how we're going to finish this coup" you'd deny it. Now it's really difficult for me to believe you actually think this. I consider you a crazy person or a propagandist. A troll is too good for you.

I'm left with 3 possibilities:

1) you're literally insane and believe anything the US government claims
2) you're a propagandist working on behalf of the US federal government or a "PR" agency
3) you're a troll

There's no instance in those selections in which your supposed opinion is worth considering as being a genuine conclusion you have drawn. We have Victoria dead to rights. If you can't see it, I don't think it's because you're blind or stupid. I just don't trust anything you say. I think you're an active liar, and it's purposeless, it doesn't matter what Americans believe - what happens happens, in the interim, it's just money laundering. That's what the war is about from the American perspective. They want it to go on as long as possible, just like Afghanistan. They don't care about how many people die.

The United States can, and very well may, dump a trillion or more into Ukraine. That's not going to change the course of the war. What might is if US military are dumped into the area, and then it stops being a proxy war, and is WWIII. That poses a great threat of being nuclear, and there's already rumors that US military personnel are in Ukraine. Americans, from what I've learned from them, will be silent sheep, but I don't think Europeans will, although all their leaders are paid off. If this goes to full scale war, Europe will get the first strike and it's not hard to find the remnants of WWII there. The EU may collapse, and I don't know if that's such a bad thing. I mean, their governments are fucking assholes and aren't democratic anyhow.

Russia is a resource treasure. If Europe gave a fuck about Europeans, they'd dump their alliance with the United States and align with Russia. Same thing with the United States, if the asshole traitors that run the US cared about Americans, they'd dump their alliance with Europe and align themselves with Russia. If this war escalates enough, either the US or Europe will crack, and it will likely be Europe, because US leader assholes can never admit their tremendous fuckups, they only reward them with promotion as they fall upward. Nobody making "a mistake" in the US gets fired, ever, no matter how gigantic the fuckup is. Incompetence is rewarded.