patrick.net

richwicks says

What's that a picture of?

Grozny, circa 2000, courtesy of Russia which according to you is completely different from USSR. Belgrade or for that matter any city in Serbia was never bombed to that extent after WW2.

.

richwicks says

Did the United States instigate a coup d'état in Ukraine in 2014 to install Arseniy Yatseniuk and remove Viktor Yanukovych? Yes or no?

No.

Putin has fired the first salvo in his bid to take over Ukraine and restore his belowed USSR, to which aspiration he confessed last week during his TV apperance in St Petersburg.

Here how it all started:

In November 2013, Yanukovych was due to travel to Vilinius, Lithuania, for a summit with the EU where he was widely expected to sign an agreement that would have set out a framework for Ukraine’s relationship with the European bloc, including preferential terms of trade. The agreement would have set Ukraine on a clear path for eventual EU membership. He had signing this agreement as a campaign promise in 2010 presidential election. The runner-up did too, BTW, so signing the EU association agreement was widely popular.

But the agreement and Ukraine’s move closer to Europe angered Putin, who engaged in a campaign of economic pressure against Ukraine: cutting off energy supplies to the country and blocking almost all imports from Ukraine, which, BTW, was against guarantees Russia signed in Budapest Memorandum. This resulted in a 25% reduction in Ukrainian exports and pushed the country’s economy into recession. The Kremlin publicly threatened to drive Ukraine into default on its sovereign debt if it went ahead with the EU trade deal.

On Nov. 21, Yanukovych succumbed to this pressure and suddenly reversed course, saying he would not sign the EU alignment agreement, although he still favored eventual Ukrainian membership in the EU. Instead, he would accept a package of Russian financial assistance to meet the country’s debt obligations ($15B IIRC).

Yanukovych was trying his best to please both Putin, and the voters, majority of whom wanted to join the EU. The renewed 25 year Russian navy lease in Crimea in trade for lower natural gas prices= was a Charlie Foxtrot. Putin sells “favored” nations natural gas at a lower rate, and when that “favored” nation does anything that doesn’t benefit Russian interests, Putin has that “favored” nations gas bill, adjusted to retail and Putin back bills the different from the discounted rate and retail. Then Putin claims that the “fallen out of favor” nation, is screwing Russia over.. In this particular incident, Putin straight up leveraged Yanukovych- this is unassailable, even for a room temperature IQ person can comprehend this.

When the news of him reneging on his campaign promise got out and students of Kyivs colleges gathered next to the Statue of Independence to protest they were brutally beaten by the the riot police. Next day their parents were out demanding the Minister of Internal Affairs who controls the police to be sacked. They were beaten too. Yanukovich was clearly listening to Putin who advised him to never back down (as he and Kuchma did in 2004 when rigged elections were reversed after many days of protests), so instead of simply sacking the top cop, he escalated and then escalated some more until a million people were occupying the central square and adjacent streets. Now they demanded Yanukovich's resignation. The leaders of the protest met with him and agreed to have an off-cycle election in 2015, but the fuck apparently had other plans, so he escalated again which lead to 100 people being shot in one day (Feb 19, IIRC). The attempt to bring military in was unsuccessful as most of commanders have refused outright and some troops where blocked in their barracks or on the highways. So, fearing being held responsible for the whole covfefe, on Feb 22 the fucker fled and Parliament voted to install an acting President (in accordance with the constitutional procedure) and set an off-cycle presidential election for May of that year. BTW, Russia started the operation to annex Crimea two days before that - on Feb 20, 2014, so any claims it was some kind of "act of defence of their military base" is 100% pure bullshit.

None of this meets any definition of coup more then Kennedy's assasination, because except for one fuck vacating his seat all the rest of the govenment branches remained intact and functioning in accordance with the constitution. That's the beauty of the separation of powers. It does meet the definition of war of aggression and conquest on the Russia's part, though. And it all started with Putin being butthurt about Ukraine joining the EU and thus slipping away from his re-creation of the USSR, not from Nuland giving out sandwiches on the streets, as some amoebas tend to believe.

Oil refinery in Novoshahtinsk, Rostov Oblast (NOT Ukraine) liberated by a drone:

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1539512743333613569?s=20&t=X51cwd9sW64bup4DIrHyyQ

February/March: "Russia is losing so many tanks/APCs to shoulder-fired anti-tank weapons because they are not sending their best and most protected now, holding them for the later knock-out punch"
June: https://twitter.com/BecauseBitcoin/status/1539625999884816384

Fun fact: T-62 can be taken out by fucking RPG-7, no need to spend costly Javs/NLAWs on them

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Here's another question

Not so fast.

1) I caught you lying.
You claimed that I denied that Victoria Nuland was picking out the next leader of Ukraine in her intercepted phone call with Geoffrey Pyatt.

1) Victoria Nuland was picking the next leader of Ukraine at least 2 weeks and 4 days before the elected leader was removed. You agree with that
2) You deny the US engaged in a coup, despite the fact that Victoria Nuland was picking the next leader of Ukraine at least 2 weeks and 4 days before the elected leader was removed.

You can't see this contradiction in your scrambled egg "thinking". I can't really communicate with somebody with your, frankly amazing, level of cognitive dissonance.

richwicks says

You can't see this contradiction

Yawn. The ONLY way to pretend that there is contradiction is to lie by omission. That is, to ignore everything else that happened in months and years prior and to ignore some valid questions. That's what you are effectively doing, lying by omission.

Eric Holder goes into much greater detail than I would care to with someone like you - https://patrick.net/comment?comment_id=1853281

mostly reader says

richwicks says

You don't have to censor or ban anything, if they are wrong.

This, right there. This is bunch of crap and you know it. Because PROPAGANDA WORKS!

It works to make people believe in an outcome that doesn't come to pass.

Propaganda can be used to get the naive and gullible to fight a war or to support a particular cause of action.

There's not much use in propaganda in a PROXY war. We get constant propaganda about how Ukraine is going to beat Russia. I know people who believe it, you for example. Whether you or I believe this, will not change the outcome. We're on the sidelines.

There was propaganda for Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and Libya - HEAVY propaganda. What did it do other than embarrass the stupid retards that believed it? Well, it did one other thing, it allowed the criminal sociopaths that profited off from these wars to walk away without consequence.

If you think the United States government cares about humanitarian rights or democracy, that's amazing after 20 years of them repeating this same bit over and over and over again. If the propaganda ever matches the reality, that will be a real surprise. I'd be shocked if Ukraine won this war, but I'm open to the possibility of it happening but our propaganda system has a pretty clear track record of leading people to a false belief in the eventual outcome.

mostly reader says

Good news! Apparently, US narrative is not always wrong.

We'll see in time. It would break a 20 year losing streak.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

You can't see this contradiction

Yawn.

Look, if what is blatantly painfully obvious to me is perplexing and obtuse to you, we can't really have a conversation can we?

Time will play out.

I'm not kidding when I say I don't believe anybody can really sincerely have the thinking and beliefs you claim to have. I can't believe in this conversation that you're being honest, I can't believe you're not actively lying.

If you are honestly believe that Victoria Nuland was picking the next leader of Ukraine BUT the US wasn't instigating a coup, you have a mentality I cannot access or comprehend. This is like saying "vaccinated people are 10 times more likely to die of heart disease, but the vaccine didn't cause it".

You engage in levels of denial that I could never engage in, even as a child.

Time will play out. When this stupid fucking war that the US created by overthrowing the Ukrainian government and installing a puppet asshole leadership in an attempt to weaken the Russian state ends and there's a clear outcome, then I'll remind you of this whole fruitless conversation I've had with whom I consider a propagandist, or a true moron.

Bd6r says

richwicks says

What's that a picture of?

Grozny, circa 2000, courtesy of Russia which according to you is completely different from USSR.

Why is it on on black and white film using silver halides? That was the technology that was being used in the 1940's. I used to work for RCA. Black and white photography died out before I was born, in 1971.

The Chechen war (conflict?) happened shortly after the USSR collapsed. Again, the assholes in charge then were still mostly communist fucktards that got to their position by being loyal communists, not by being competent. The USSR collapsed because it demanded before competence, obedience. It's the same reason the US is going to collapse. Moral people just opt out.

richwicks says

happened shortly after the USSR collapsed.

False. 2nd Chechen war started when Putin was in charge first as Prime minister then as President. 1999 was 8 yrs after USSR collapsed. I think you simply can not accept that Putin is a genocidal maniac who killed people by hundreds of thousands.

@richwicks

You failed to counter my points and instead just keep babbling, attributing those points to "beliefs". Learn the difference. I'm being factual, and my question (the one that you keep dodging) is based on easily available information. "Beliefs" is your prerogative, and quite limiting at that. This time around those beliefs lead you to join the ranks of proper scum.

richwicks says

We'll see in time. It would break a 20 year losing streak.

If you want to prove the official US narrative about gravity wrong, I can recommend a bridge or two. Something not too high, because every village needs an idiot.

mostly reader says

Something not too high

It is pointless to argue with willful blindness and abject lack of knowledge about post Soviet space, like thinking that Crimea is 90 pct Russian ethnicity, Sevastopol is Russian only port on Black sea, that Budapest memorandum should be ignored or does not exist, that Russia can do whatever is in its interests while rest of the world cant, no Russian invvement in 2014 attacks, + wrong predictions such as Russia will not attack Ukraine

Bd6r says

richwicks says

happened shortly after the USSR collapsed.

False. 2nd Chechen war started when Putin was in charge

The Chechen war started in 1994 and I don't believe that's a picture taken in the 1990's.

Bd6r says

I think you simply can not accept that Putin is a genocidal maniac who killed people by hundreds of thousands.

I don't care if he is. I have had 2 presidents that were both genocidal maniacs that killed people by the millions.

Putin is not a problem for me. This asshole is a problem for me:



That's the threat to our way of life, our freedom, and sovereignty. Putin is Russian's problem.

Why should I care about another nation's leader? Putin is not destroying the United States, the assholes running the United States are destroying the United States. We have DOMESTIC enemies, not foreign ones.

mostly reader says

You failed to counter my points and instead just keep babbling, a

I don't read your "counter points".

I have concluded that your thinking is not worth considering. I base this on your acceptance that Victoria Nuland was picking the next leader of Ukraine 2 weeks and 4 days before Viktor Yanukovych was ousted, but you deny there was a coup by the United States. I'm at a loss of words, literally, to try to describe this supposed disconnect in logic. I do not believe anybody can accept the US chose the next leader of Ukraine more than 2 weeks before the "revolution" (which you do) yet deny the United States had nothing to do with this destruction of the government to install the new leader, that they picked. I can't believe anybody can have this level of cognitive dissonance.

I don't care about your, hypothetical "thinking", at this point. I do not believe that your statements are honest. Trolls work for free, propagandists don't - but neither care about reality. If you are a propagandist, what does misinforming and lying people do to improve our society? You listen, don't you - until something comes up. Explain to me the utility of convincing the public of a lie.

If everybody was certain that Ukraine was in the right, and that Ukraine would win the war, in the United States - how does that change anything?

I'm concerned when my government and it's media puppets lie to me, that's all.

“Military intelligence is a contradiction in terms “ -Groucho Marx

richwicks says

The Chechen war started in 1994 and I don't believe that's a picture taken in the 1990's.

When did the second Chechen war start?
And yes, this is a picture of Grozny circa 2000, which you can not believe because of your ideological bend.

Bd6r says

, like thinking that Crimea is 90 pct Russian ethnicity,

Pre-Stalin it wasn't. Reversing Stalin's moves would mean ejecting Russians from a lot of places, and should be done.

zzyzzx says

Pre-Stalin it wasn't. Reversing Stalin's moves would mean ejecting Russians from a lot of places, and should be done.

Even now it is ca. 60 to 70 pct Russian only, so fairy tales about 90 pct voting for annexation by Russia in 2014 are clearly just fairy tales spread by RT Today and some Patnetters.

richwicks says

I don't read your "counter points".

Indeed. You either don't read or read and don't understand. Yet you attempt to respond to them.
But to be clear, those points are not there to persuade you (I know a lost cause when I see one). They are there to expose you as a babbling idiot/propaganda stooge.

Bd6r says

When did the second Chechen war start?
And yes, this is a picture of Grozny circa 2000, which you can not believe because of your ideological bend.

Sure, that's a picture of Grozny circa 2000 if somebody used something like this:



to photograph it.

Bd6r says

It is pointless to argue with willful blindness and abject lack of knowledge about post Soviet space

Indeed. I think that in this instance it's not just lack of knowledge though.

Trolling farms from you-know-where don't really attempt to push certain ideology. Some may think that they are "pro-Trump", or the opposite, but it's a wrong frame altogether. Their main objective in the west is to compromise the fabric of society and to consume mental resources on a large scale. "Keep them busy being mad about something, pit them against one another". For that, being faithful to a specific ideology is unimportant. Even harmful. So they would have one hand supporting BLM, another hand supporting KKK, and third hand just being equally pissed at everyone (there are indeed way more hands). As long as they stir shit.

Which is why I would expect it that quite a few of the BLM or KKK operatives are sponsored from oversees, and I'm very curious about the role of China and Russia in the recent events (something that I may never know).

Now, I don't know the role of the persona in question. It may be just a passionate useful idiot (this is a reasonably small forum after all). But the profile fits: lots of passion, lack of substance, "everyone is an internal enemy", support of Russian aggression in Ukraine (that's one thing common in all the categories because the stakes are so high), long quotes, attempts at visual persuasion (images). Plus, the time spent on all of that - makes you wonder if the person has a real job.

To each his own. But you are right about futility of arguing with him. Whatever I post in response is community service, sort of.

mostly reader says

Trolling farms from you-know-where don't really attempt to push certain ideology. Some may think that they are "pro-Trump", or the opposite, but it's a wrong frame altogether. Their main objective in the west is to compromise the fabric of society and to consume mental resources on a large scale. "Keep them busy being mad about something, pit them against one another".

They are just click bait. Nothing more. This picture was "part of a plan" of "Russian Collusion" to over-turn the US election in favor of Donald Trump in 2016:



And if you think I'm kidding, I'm not. It's funny. The idea is to get you to follow the the add to see more jokes and advertisements along with it. That was the "troll". It was pictures like these that Klit-ton was fuming about that stole the election from her. We're in fucking totally clown world.

richwicks says

, that's a picture of Grozny circa 2000 if somebody used something like this:

Indeed. People never use filters on their cameras to achieve visual effects they want.
And for those who have been banned from yandex here is a link: https://yandex.ru/images/touch/search?text=destroyed+grozny&source=tabbar

It is picture about 18 in this search

But of course this all is not true as st putin can not have bombed a city into oblivion and killed 20 pct of Chechens

mostly reader says

richwicks says

I don't read your "counter points".

Indeed. You either don't read or read and don't understand.

No, I don't read what you write.

Your thinking and logic is so worthless, I no longer consider anything you write worth considering. I'll respond to you, but I will never consider anything you write worth considering ever again.

Reading what you write may actually influence me to disregard similar opinions and information I find from other other sources. From my perspective, you're a madman, either constructed or completely organic, I don't know, I don't care.

richwicks says

No, I don't read what you write.

Yet you attempt to respond. It's all about space consumption, isn't it? The "mostly writer" style. When your arguments are toothless, bury the issue under piles of crap.

mostly reader says

Yet you attempt to respond.

At this point, I just sort of egg you on.

In a few years we'll see the result of the Russian / Ukrainian war. It's possible my prediction is wrong, but I think unlikely. At that time either I will be saying "told you so" or you will be telling me "I told you so".

But you have no intelligent information to give me. You're a belligerent, vile human being that jealously and worthlessly guards how you form what I think at this point is laughably called "your thoughts".

I don't think anything you say is worth deep consideration at this point. You have just recently said you cannot connect Victoria Nuland picking the next leader of Ukraine to a US coup. This is so mindbogglingly stupid, I can't trust any of your logic. On one hand, you might be honest in saying this is your genuine thinking - in this case, I consider this idiocy, on another hand if you're lying, this means you're not truthful. Regardless, nothing you said should be incorporated into my thinking.

richwicks says

You have just recently said you cannot connect Victoria Nuland picking the next leader of Ukraine to a US coup.

Aren't you tired of lying?
That's not what I said (again). I said (more like implied) that connection is not there in light of other factors. I also explained what those other factors are. Other contributors went into much greater detail on that too (you apparently don't read them either)
You are a virtual equivalent of a mentally challenged child, really. Even as a propagandist you stopped being effective once exposed. Now you resort to your last line of offense - tantrums.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

You have just recently said you cannot connect Victoria Nuland picking the next leader of Ukraine to a US coup.

Aren't you tired of lying?

Haha.

https://patrick.net/post/1343769/2022-02-24-greeted-like-liberators-ukraine?start=1123#comment-1853387

I also stopped beating my wife.

The reason I talk to people is to get different perspectives and insights into thinking. You offer none. You'll say one thing and then deny it literally a day later. You don't have any genuine thinking.

richwicks says

I also stopped beating my wife.

There's an element of surprise here, but it's not the beating part.

You do realize that your link supports my statement and destroy yours, don't you? Oh, wait. You just confessed that you don't read me, so you probably don't realize that. OK, keep them coming.

richwicks says

You'll say one thing and then deny it literally a day later.

Nope, you don't get tired of lying.
Prove it. I don't edit my statements past reasonable time. Which you should know, since as it turned out you likely keep scans of them (good, that should keep you busy) So far your links show the opposite.

mostly reader says

You do realize that your link supports my statement and destroy yours, don't you?

No, I do not.

richwicks says

mostly reader says

You do realize that your link supports my statement and destroy yours, don't you?

No, I do not.

I love it when two oppositional defiants go head to head.

Ceffer says

richwicks says

mostly reader says

You do realize that your link supports my statement and destroy yours, don't you?

No, I do not.

I love it when two oppositional defiants go head to head.

What does that mean?

I just don't think "mostly reader" is rational, for whatever reason. It doesn't matter if they are delusional or dishonest, same result -> ignore stated thinking or conclusion. Probably should ignore him altogether, but I have a strict rule of not ignoring anybody.

richwicks says

I just don't think

You could stop right there.

Of course you don't: thinking is not in job description of a propagandist. Job of a propagandist is more along the line of lying, misrepresenting, twisting facts, and pushing agenda. Basically, all the things that you do.

https://bioclandestine.substack.com/p/tensions-rising-in-russia

Ukraine or Russia, and what does this uniform reminds you of?



(My answer - Nazi porn fetish by ruling class in that country)

https://gettr.com/post/p1fsx2a5992

mostly reader says

richwicks says

I just don't think

You could stop right there.

Of course you don't: thinking is not in job description of a propagandist.

What I think changes nothing.

If Russia gets what it claims it wants - that Ukraine remain neutral, that Ukraine stops bombing Eastern Ukraine - what will you say then?

You can call me anything you wish, but I'm just trying to look at this situation objectively. I know people are dying, I know there's bloodshed, I want it to end, and I think the only reasonable way to end this is for Ukraine to remain neutral and for Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine. How do you end the bloodshed?

There's a well defined Western idea of war. You fight a war PROVIDED you have a good chance of winning the war, and that the war is worthwhile to engage in. I think the Ukraine/Russian war fails both those tests. Russia CLAIMS what Ukraine is doing is an existential threat to it. That's their claim (perhaps lie?), but if they act upon this, it will be nuclear war before they lose, and I don't think they will resort to that.

This is nothing more than another stupid fucking war, which assholes like this dickhead:


original link

are promoting.

You have to understand, please, these motherfuckers don't give a fuck about innocent people dying. They are using Ukraine for money laundering and they don't give a fuck if they are successful or not. It's just money laundering. They don't care.

It's said (who knows if it's true) that only 10% of the Russian military is engaged with this stupid fucking war that is being run by criminal triple and double staters and criminal hangers on. They don't give a fuck who wins. They make money off from this calamity. They don't care.

Our fucking president doesn't give a shit about the outcome. The chaos makes him money. That's our rulers.

richwicks says

I think the only reasonable way to end this is for Ukraine to remain neutral and for Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine. How do you end the bloodshed?

You repeat the same debunked message over and over again. "Western Ukraine to stop attacking Eastern Ukraine" my ass. News flash: Putin started that hybrid war in 2014, and then full invasion in 2022.

I just watched Lavrov's interview with BBC (in Russian) The conviction with which this guy is lying to your face is amazing. Every time he says something that's hard to believe, I go double-check - and sure enough, he's twisting reality like a pretzel. Trouble with doing an interview with someone like him is that the interviewer can't jump online while doing the interview, so Lavrov doesn't get exposed on the spot.

Just one example. Zelensky have said earlier that if someone lives in Ukraine they live in Ukraine. If they want to be part of Russia then they better move there. Lavrov twisted it into claiming that "Zelensky said that Russian speakers are not welcome in Ukraine and better move to Russia". Something along these lines. The dipshit claimed it with a straight face.

That's how they build their talking points to brainwash the gullible. It's their specialty. What you try to present as a "sensible approach" is built up on the worldview constructed by professional liars and scammers .

mostly reader says

Just one example. Zelensky have said earlier that if someone lives in Ukraine they live in Ukraine. If they want to be part of Russia then they better move there. Lavrov twisted it into claiming that "Zelensky said that Russian speakers are not welcome in Ukraine and better move to Russia". Something along these lines. The dipshit claimed it with a straight face.

What you and Zelensky are advocating is called Ethnic Cleansing. Supporting regional self-determination has long been US foreign policy. In fact, in this case is worse than Ethnic Cleansing: usually Ethnic Cleansing involves the removal of an ethnic minority from a region, whereas in this case Russian speakers who don't want to be discriminated by Zelensky regime are the majority of the region. The situation is rather analogous to Kosovo in the 1990's: the majority of locals wanted to either be "independent" or join Albania despite existing geopolitical map having that region as part of Serbia; on that occasion, the NATO intervened militarily to stop Serbia from suppressing locals. The operating theory was/is that National Sovereignty and Territorial Integrity do not trump Basic Human Rights; that is actually a good principle to uphold if/when it's a struggle between democracies vs. dictatorships. "Germany for Germans" "Serbia for Serbians" and "Ukraine for Ukrainians" are all essentially national-socialistic/Nazi slogans. The leaders of any multi-ethnic country are supposed to be accommodative to its existing populations, not discriminate against ethnic/linguistic groups within its borders.