patrick.net

Nice strawman: nobody ever stated that Ukraine is an "altruistic utopia". Do these even exist IRL?

With all of the Ukrainian heroes, you might be asking yourself one question...
Why hasn't Ukraine already won the war?

Meep meep!

Tenpoundbass says

With all of the Ukrainian heroes, you might be asking yourself one question...
Why hasn't Ukraine already won the war?

Outgunned, outnumbered, duh.

Eric Holder says

Outgunned, outnumbered, duh.

You mean no guns, no numbers as they're asking for both. But beyond numbers, by your own admission, Ukraine is basically shooting down helicopters with slingshots and house plants(?). If the propaganda was even half true, the numbers wouldn't matter.

But fuck all that, let me hear you say Ukraine is corrupt... Won't do it? Refer to my title ^^

NuttBoxer says

But fuck all that, let me hear you say Ukraine is corrupt... Won't do it? Refer to my title

Corruption is any country's right. But calling Ukraine a democracy is the most laughable thing in all these events.

indc says

Corruption is any country's right. But calling Ukraine a democracy is the most laughable thing in all these events.

Prior to 2014, at least they had elections that didn't seem to have outside interference.

NuttBoxer says

images

Aaand, just like that, MSM is back to being reputable on patnet.

Note to the wiser: Ukraine's wholesomeness (or lack thereof) is not the reason to be pissed at Russia.

mostly reader says

Aaand, just like that, MSM is back to being reputable on patnet.

Which one was MSM? If you want some meat, go to my other threads, this one is meant to drive home a point that doesn't require much analysis.

mostly reader says

Note to the wiser: Ukraine's wholesomeness (or lack thereof) is not the reason to be pissed at Russia.

I haven't read a single person anywhere in this forum who says Russian government is blameless or altruistic. But if I see as many posts and comments in that vein as I've seen on here praising Ukrainian Nazi's, I will definitely make a thread along these lines. And no, I don't accept ignorance of Ukrainian government atrocities as an excuse. Don't tell me anyone here would accept ignorance if someone praised Russian governments dictator.

NuttBoxer says

I've seen on here praising Ukrainian Nazi's

My message was always that Ukrainian Nazi's are largely invention of Russian Propaganda. They do indeed exist, but they also exist in Russia (or US for that matter) in similar numbers, proportionally. For Pete's sake, name another country outside of Israel where elected president is a Jew.

Now you are telling us that someone here praised Nazi's. I think that you are either confused or intentionally lying. Do you have examples? The examples of someone here praising Nazi's?

NuttBoxer says

I've seen on here praising Ukrainian Nazi's

No you haven't. You don't have a single quote of anybody praising Nazis on this board.

Another captured Russian tank

https://dailyexpose.uk/2022/03/04/rise-of-zelensky-from-comedian-to-president/?source=patrick.net

Why would they set up offshore bank accounts at the same time that Kolomoisky was simply setting up an allegedly benign TV production deal with Kvartal? Unless the entire point of the show was to astroturf Zelensky into the real presidency all along…?

Pandora Papers Reveal Offshore Holdings of Ukrainian President and his Inner Circle
It’s pretty obvious that Zelensky is his puppet, and more disturbingly, his “role” in Servant of The People was intended from the very start, to be “life imitating art” in a wag the dog fashion.

Pandora Papers Reveal Offshore Holdings of Ukrainian President and his Inner Circle
And the expensive properties owned by Zelensky and his associates are not limited to London. George Webb, investigative journalist, tweeted a video report with the description: “Breaking down Ukraine – let’s start with Zelensky’s $35M mansion in Sunny Isles, FL built by Kolomoisky and Pinchuk. $1.3B in the bank!!”

Video in the above link mentions the murder of this US prosecutor and how his body washed up on the beach near Zelensky's mansion. It may be totally unrelated, but I didn't hear about it.

https://heavy.com/news/2017/05/beranton-whisenant-attorney-federal-prosecutor-jr-j-bernaton-miami-beach-photos-hollywood-florida/?source=patrick.net

George Takei, a supporting star in one of the most popular Franchises of all time, beloved all over the world, has about $15M in wealth. He can get $50k just to show up at a Convention, talk for 15 minutes, and sign some autographs for an hour.

We're supposed to believe a Ukrainian TV Comedian... has more money?

mostly reader says

Now you are telling us that someone here praised Nazi's. I think that you are either confused or intentionally lying. Do you have examples? The examples of someone here praising Nazi's?

RWSGFY says

No you haven't. You don't have a single quote of anybody praising Nazis on this board.

NuttBoxer says

And no, I don't accept ignorance of Ukrainian government atrocities as an excuse. Don't tell me anyone here would accept ignorance if someone praised Russian governments dictator.

See, already been answered, you just don't like the answer.

Ah, so you just call Ukrainian government Nazis and figure it wins you the argument? Nice. I've seen this somewhere before.
Along with reference to Vox I say - it instead wins you the "snowflake award" on this board.

Read some of the sources I've posted on this. Now that I've told you about it, you have a moral responsibility to investigate if it's true. Willful ignorance is not an excuse. But it does mean you're a terrible person... if you fail to investigate.

lol, who cares about altruism or corruption.

Russia is invading a country just because their madman leader likes to have this country as part of his falling empire.
The russian people dont want this war and the Ukrainians want their freedom and live in peace.

one more time....this isnt about altruism or corruption. This is about killing innocent children, women, men. Putin is a mass murder and needs to be assassinated.

NuttBoxer says

Read some of the sources I've posted on this. Now that I've told you about it, you have a moral responsibility to investigate if it's true. Willful ignorance is not an excuse. But it does mean you're a terrible person... if you fail to investigate.

FYI - I've been following the situation in Ukraine since 2014. I probably forgot more about it than you'll ever learn. So let's not talk here about "moral responsibility".

There is fog of war. But then, sometimes there's a rare occasion in which facts are clear and can be interpreted to arrive to unambiguous conclusion. One such event was MH-17. The way in which Russia handled it - creating dozens of fakes, flooding infospace and clinging on to each one of those fakes, demanding debunks for those fakes just to buy time, hiring obvious trolls to do it's bidding, etc, etc, etc - it made it clear to me what kind of a player this is and what it's sources are worth.

Then I listened to some of the internal Russian propaganda. As someone who was able to dissect and see through anti-Trump propaganda, I say this: Russian internal propaganda is on a different level altogether.

Then I noticed that some of that Russian propaganda makes it's way into US sources. Some easily debunk-able, yet persuasive. Some intermixed with truth to make it harder to debunk. Soon enough I reached "stack overflow" and stopped following.

And now there's a board contributor who recommends that I read their selection of materials on the subject. Because "moral responsibility" and because I'm a horrible person otherwise.

I say - my refusal to rile through sewage is no reflection on my moral character.

Save_Ukraine says

lol, who cares about altruism or corruption.

Not you apparently.

Save_Ukraine says

This is about killing innocent children, women, men.

Wait, now you do? But only if they're ethnic Ukrainian's? Because that's been happening to Ethnic Russians in Donbas for eight years. If my assumption here is true, what would that make you? Racist wouldn't really begin to cover it.

If You Believe Somebody Believes Ukraine is Some Altruistic Utopia, You Might Have Mass Psychosis

mostly reader says

There is fog of war. But then, sometimes there's a rare occasion in which facts are clear and can be interpreted to arrive to unambiguous conclusion. One such event was MH-17. The way in which Russia handled it - creating dozens of fakes, flooding infospace and clinging on to each one of those fakes, demanding debunks for those fakes just to buy time, hiring obvious trolls to do it's bidding, etc, etc, etc - it made it clear to me what kind of a player this is and what it's sources are worth.

Now do Ghost of Kiev, Snake Island, etc.

Ukraine has shot down planes before by accident prior to MH17.

Everything about "Drunken Eastern Europeans" applies to Ukraine as much as it does Russia, with the added problems of corruption, low pay (poorer then Russia), etc.

Save_Ukraine says

Russia is invading a country just because their madman leader likes to have this country as part of his falling empire.

That's a complete shit Fox-MSNBC take. It's about realpolitik and not having a hostile neighbor on your ass.

We wouldn't tolerate Chinese Bases in Canada for a second, even if The Liberal Party won a 90% majority and backed it with an 85% "Yes to China" Referendum. At that point, we'd say "Blame Canada, it's not even a real country anyway" and overthrow that government by hook or by crook or otherwise and fuck democracy - correctly.

Despite UK/French Propaganda, not only was Kaiser's Germany a Limited Monarchical Republic, every single German Man could vote. That wouldn't happen in the UK until after the war, when everybody was allowed to vote (big mistake, voting should be tied to at least modest property/income and restricted to men, widows, and veterans only)

The Ukrainians have generally voted for pro-neutrality candidates except the two times they had a Coup of the Elected Government, the last of which pulled the Neutrality Clause of their Constitution.

mostly reader says

FYI - I've been following the situation in Ukraine since 2014. I probably forgot more about it than you'll ever learn.

So have I, on the wrong side initially thanks to CIA propaganda. I was exposed to the strong Nazi influence over what was going on back then, but like I said, didn't really understand what was happening.

See I just admitted a mistake, you should try that sometime. Or are you always right?

mostly reader says

because I'm a horrible person otherwise.

What do you call someone who ignores/self-censors when they know the view presented will prove that they're supporting Nazi extremists, who have committed, or at least attempted to commit genocide. Sounds like a pretty shitty person to me.

And that's who you are right now. You fell for the wrong narrative and refuse to admit your mistake. You're the same as the covidites, and the BLM'ers before that. But instead of just being racist, or wanting to force people to take shots, you support Nazi's who have killed little kids. That's despicable. And yes, I intend this to be personal, because you deserve it.

NuttBoxer says

What do you call someone who ignores/self-censors when they know the view presented will prove that they're supporting Nazi extremists, who have committed, or at least attempted to commit genocide.

I already explained why. You chose to ignore my explanation because you don't like it. I'm not taking seriously someone with only one-directional critical filters. That would be you.

Instead, I will be enjoying seeing the process of Russia becoming China's bitch.

mostly reader says

I already explained why.

I must have missed it. Seriously. The only thing I saw was you trying to say you know more than me, because opinions. And you wouldn't descend with the commoners and read or watch material because, no reasons.

I don't enjoy any of this. I don't take delight in war, regardless of who gets pwned. I've seen too many countries go the way of Iraq, and now we're spreading it to Europe. I don't enjoy the suffering of the Russian people, who never had it good to begin with, or the increased suffering of the Ukrainian's, who are on a path to being a failed state.

But I especially don't enjoy the fact that after two years of most people on this forum not falling for covid, so many of you learned nothing about propaganda, and fell hard, because it catered to your worldview.

And on that last point I HATE when people slander the truth to their own personal ends. It's disgusting, and I'm through putting up with it.

NuttBoxer says

mostly reader says

I already explained why.

I must have missed it. Seriously. The only thing I saw was you trying to say you know more than me, because opinions. And you wouldn't descend with the commoners and read or watch material because, no reasons.

That's my experience with him. He has SECRET INFORMATION and KNOWS MORE THAN ME - but won't demonstrate it, just demands I trust that he knows more than I do. He might very well know more about the situation than I do but he won't share it.

I have decided he's either a useful idiot or an actual propagandist. Assets do monitor forums after all and are largely silent until one of the issues they are instructed to cover comes up.

NuttBoxer says

But I especially don't enjoy the fact that after two years of most people on this forum not falling for covid, so many of you learned nothing about propaganda, and fell hard, because it catered to your worldview.

This has also surprised me. That so many people suddenly think our government and institutions are now credible. They are just as FOS as always and they are especially full of crap when it comes to war.

NuttBoxer says

And on that last point I HATE when people slander the truth to their own personal ends. It's disgusting, and I'm through putting up with it.

It used to aggravate me to no end that propagandists and useful idiots, and generally just dishonest and malicious people existed. Well, they aren't going away, EVER - so don't let them upset you. That's my 2 cents anyhow. You can be aggravated that a disease exists, but in order to eliminate the disease, the cure would be worse. It's part of human nature to deceive.

AmericanKulak says

We wouldn't tolerate Chinese Bases in Canada for a second, even if The Liberal Party won a 90% majority and backed it with an 85% "Yes to China" Referendum.

Of course.

Because China is a Communist Totalitarian regime, who have people in concentration camps, killed 10's of millions of people and have an aggressive and expansionist agenda.

Was Putin so paranoid thinking that NATO was going to invade Moscow through Ukraine or something?

socal2 says

Was Putin so paranoid thinking that NATO was going to invade Moscow through Ukraine or something?

Russia has been invaded twice before through Ukraine.

It's the United States that's always screaming about "Russia bad", and has been for 20 years - even claiming that Putin is trying to control our politicians and leaders. The US has lied about Russia for decades and has slandered them repeatedly. The US have stolen Russian government assets in the United States, humiliated them at every opportunity, and has run a propaganda campaign against them for 2 decades.

Russia isn't paranoid when the United States' leadership is clearly unhinged.

Poso caught this, a Nazi Black Sun from a photo of a Female Soldier in a tweet that NATO hastily took down:

richwicks says

He has SECRET INFORMATION and KNOWS MORE THAN ME - but won't demonstrate it, just demands I trust that he knows more than I do.

Do you ever stop lying? This information is not secret. Go to Al Jazeera, for Pete's sake.

You asked me specifically for more personal footage which would add nothing to the conversation, except that it would come from me (not a reputable resource in your book) Then you'd shun away from the offer that I proposed (that I'd do it if you stay away from this topic). Staying away from the topic would hurt, but you know what? Stupid should hurt.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

He has SECRET INFORMATION and KNOWS MORE THAN ME - but won't demonstrate it, just demands I trust that he knows more than I do.

Do you ever stop lying? This information is not secret. Go to Al Jazeera, for Pete's sake.

You mean Al Gore's news agency?

mostly reader says

You asked me specifically for more personal footage which would add nothing to the conversation, except that it would come from me (not a reputable resource in your book)

I asked you for it because I don't think you have it and also to make it available for public review to ascertain its veracity.

mostly reader says

Then you'd shun away from the offer that I proposed (that I'd do it if you stay away from this topic).

I'll show you this (potential bullshit) but if I do, you can't say anything about it! I could have just lied and made the promise with no intention of keeping it.

mostly reader says

Staying away from the topic would hurt, but you know what? Stupid should hurt.

I notice you add no information on this subject, and all you do is call people stupid for not having your point of view, without explaining why you hold your point of view.

I have repeatedly demonstrated why I do not trust my government with plenty of examples of why nobody should trust their government. The fact that the US overthrew Ukraine for example, is using it to launder money for the Biden family, that they spent 4 years claiming Trump as a "Putin Puppet", that they've been demonizing Russia for 2 solid decades. They're full of shit.

But now they are asking me to trust them about their supposed assessment on Russia, they have demonstrated quite plainly their propensity and willingness to lie in order to manipulate public viewpoints. A viewpoint that you claim to have and the only reasoning you will expose is to tell me to read Al Jazerra - as if this explains your reasoning or thought process. I think that's unreasonable, and I mean that precisely - lacking reason.

You don't express your reasoning. You appeal to ad hominem and ridicule, but you don't explain your thinking. My conclusion is you have no thinking at all.

richwicks says

I asked you for it because I don't think you have it and also to make it available for public review to ascertain its veracity.

Exactly! You admitted it at last. Because you don't think that I have it. Your ask was not genuine, and therefore spanking that you are getting from me is well deserved.

Are you willing to put skin in the game? Any skin? Then accept the offer.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

I asked you for it because I don't think you have it and also to make it available for public review to ascertain its veracity.

Exactly! You admitted it at last. Because you don't think that I have it. Your ask was not genuine, and therefore spanking that you are getting from me is well deserved.

What do you mean "my ask wasn't genuine"?

Here, let me be more plain. I think you're full of crap, have no extraordinary knowledge, and you have nothing to contribute to this conflict in Ukraine. That's my current assessment.

mostly reader says

Are you willing to put skin in the game? Any skin? Then accept the offer.

No. I'm not going to lie to you and falsely claim that somebody I neither respect, much less trust in any way, could ever possibly determine what avenues of thought or discussion I can engage in. I wouldn't agree to that with ANYBODY when I think about it, even somebody I did trust and respect.

richwicks says

What do you mean "my ask wasn't genuine"?

I mean that all this time when you pretended to be helpful - "I'll help you to set up a server", "you should do it to expose Putin", "it's your duty as a human being" - you had something else on your mind. Your MO is quite predictable, I know exactly what would've followed: "Prove that this is Ukraine!", "Prove that Russians did it!", "Prove that it's not doctored!", etc, etc, etc.

Since you seem to have problems with reading comprehension, I'll spell it out: I NEVER CLAIMED that I have extraordinary knowledge. I CLAIMED (and still do) that I have knowledge which is consistent with that in public domain, and personal materials that are consistent with those in public domain.

You, on the other hand, demonstrated (and still do) a degree of cowardice.

Case closed.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

What do you mean "my ask wasn't genuine"?

I mean that all this time when you "pretended to care" - "I'll help you to set up a server", "you should do it to expose Putin", "it's your duty as a human being" - you had something else on your mind.

Yeah, I bent over backwards meeting your stated requests and concerns. You said you were worried about metadata that could identify the location. I do know how to do this with ffmpeg, but @HeadSet had the best solution, to do a live screen capture during playback - that way I COULDN'T make a mistake.

I can help you setup a server, I do have a server, if you really care you should expose criminality within the government, and if you think Putin is causing a humanitarian crisis, instead of sitting on evidence, you really DO have a duty to expose it. Nothing I said was insincere.

mostly reader says

Your MO is quite predictable, I know exactly what would've followed: "Prove that this is Ukraine!", "Prove that Russians did it!", "Prove that it's not doctored!", etc, etc, etc.

No, I would have just published it and asked for input. Other people following this story would have recognized duplicates. I don't have the ability to detect it. There are MANY people that just love to point out "that's bullshit". I'm one of them, but in this area, I'm not knowledgeable enough about the situation.

mostly reader says

Since you seem to have problems with reading comprehension, I'll spell it out: I NEVER CLAIMED that I have extraordinary knowledge. I CLAIMED (and still do) that I have knowledge which is consistent with that in public domain.

Again, I have demonstrated that my government regularly lies, has been antagonizing Russia, and as a result cannot be trusted. In the last 20 years, there hasn't been a single time in the area of foreign policy that our government hasn't outright lied about situations and propagandized the public.

From that alone I know they are lying here unless there's been a radical change, and considering the asshole that is "president" was installed by the CIA, the MASTERS of disinformation and bullshit, I think I can dismiss that as a possibility. This is, after all, a government that has locked down the country for 2 years to "flatten the curve". Nothing they say is credible. If they claim that water is wet, you better go check and verify that's true. They have ZERO credibility with me at this point. I'm quite astonished that they have credibility among anybody.

I have a friend in Switzerland who is having a crisis himself, who is just beginning to accept that most of the people he knows and work with, just accept propaganda as fact. I was like "welcome to my world".

mostly reader says

You, on the other hand, demonstrated (and still do) a degree of cowardice.

Again, an ad-hominem attack.

Do you have something to add to the conversation or people's understanding of the situation? Share it. If you don't, you're just voicing your opinion. Without knowing how you form your opinion, how am I supposed to reconsider my thinking?