patrick.net

Where I am looking, it appears that folks are unloading non-primary units. Second homes, Airbnb properties, etc.

Folks are trying to lock in outrageous gains on the homes. Example, 3BR, 3 BA, 2600 sq. ft. on a decent 2 acre lot, bought in 4/22 for $675,000, put on the market two years later. After a series of monthly and twice monthly price drops, still on the market now, four months after listing, for $930,000, currently. No work was done in the home by the last buyers.

Hey, Zillow said this was worth $1,000,000. What do you mean the price is too high now???? Gimme my damn winnings!!!!

If you are on the sidelines and can buy, now is the time to play hardball. I think.

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

Where I am looking, it appears that folks are unloading non-primary units. Second homes, Airbnb properties, etc.

Folks are trying to lock in outrageous gains on the homes. Example, 3BR, 3 BA, 2600 sq. ft. on a decent 2 acre lot, bought in 4/22 for $675,000, put on the market two years later. After a series of monthly and twice monthly price drops, still on the market now, four months after listing, for $930,000, currently. No work was done in the home by the last buyers.

Hey, Zillow said this was worth $1,000,000. What do you mean the price is too high now???? Gimme my damn winnings!!!!

If you are on the sidelines and can buy, now is the time to play hardball. I think.

I used to say "if Zillow says it's worth $1M l will believe it if Zillow actually buys it for that price". And then they tried to do exactly tgat and almost sunk under the weight of all the houses they overpaid for. Now they are back to just saying it, LOL.

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

If you are on the sidelines and can buy, now is the time to play hardball. I think.

Good point, which reminded me about Florida Condos.

Many Florida Condos are 'shadow inventory' - they're snowbird places, crash pads, and money-hiding assets for non-Americans.

When the Condo Fees are $400/month, it's one thing. When they become $1800/month and top of a $40k assessment to make up for decades of no reserves, it's another thing.

The ironic thing is that had people contributed an Olive Garden trip worth each month to the building reserves, they wouldn't be getting 200-300% Condo Fee increases or 5 figure assessments today.

WookieMan says

Our population is financially illiterate by design. Bankers don't want you to know.

Fixed:
Our population is financially illiterate by design. Bankers and government don't want you to know.

zzyzzx says

WookieMan says

Our population is financially illiterate by design. Bankers don't want you to know.

Fixed:
Our population is financially illiterate by design. Bankers and government don't want you to know.

Too many hidden rules and IRS hidden gems. We should all be pissed about that. No one should be getting any special tax treatment at all. No one.

zzyzzx says

Our population is financially illiterate by design. Bankers and government don't want you to know.

But we can trust our paper currency, can't we? After all, it's backed up with a promise by the good folks at the Federal Reserve who work tirelessly in the American people's best interests.

"And here can be your Jacuzzi". I wonder why they don't show the inside of this gem. However, the value of this property is in the acquired building permits (years and nearly impossible in Santa Cruz) for multi occupancy construction. Apparently the developer decided not to compete with the various high rise 'low income' projects around Santa Cruz (apparatchik grants for the various politically connected).

Press Release: ICE Mortgage Monitor: Rate drops make August most affordable month since February, as home price growth cools to 12-month low

Declining mortgage rates have brought home affordability to its best level since February and boosted refinance incentive for many recent-vintage mortgages

With 30-year conforming rates down 60 bps from just over 7% in May, the principal and interest payment on the average-priced home purchase is $145 less per month than just three months ago

The share of income needed to make payments on that home (34.3%) is still 10 pp above its 30-year average and ICE Market Trends data shows recent record highs in down payments and credit scores

Spurred by rate declines, purchase loan demand had two of its best weeks since March, but remains noticeably below the levels seen earlier this year and in 2023 when rates were at comparable levels

The ICE Home Price Index for July showed the annual rate of home price growth slipping to +3.6% from +4.1% in June, marking the slowest pace in 12 months on rising inventory and still-soft demand

While prices were up +0.19% from June at the national level, they fell by -0.25% or more across each of Florida’s nine largest metros which, along with Austin, saw the largest single-month declines in July

In the Midwest and Northeast, inventory shortages persist, and prices continued to push higher in July
emphasis added.

https://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2024/09/ice-mortgage-monitor-house-price-growth.html

Demand for mortgages to buy a house has plummeted by 44% from pre-pandemic levels, and is now in the biggest collapse since the 2008 housing crisis.

Americans are no longer buying homes with mortgages because housing affordability has surged out of control. The typical payment for homebuyers in 2024 is around $2,800/month including mortgage, taxes, insurance.

https://youtu.be/D0Jgp2i8Ti0

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

Declining mortgage rates have brought home affordability to its best level since February

Baloney. Lower rates just mean higher sales prices.

HeadSet says

Baloney. Lower rates just mean higher sales prices.

BINGO! Just another "Now is a good time to buy!" RE fluffer article.

When prices fucking drop 80 - 100% is when we hit "good time to buy" time.

https://patrick.net/comment?comment_id=2098281

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https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4725-Bay-Point-Rd-254-Panama-City-Beach-FL-32408/42791565_zpid/

this condo rented for around $1000 back in 2016 , so the rent went up about 5% a year

that closed in patio with all those windows can be converted to a bedroom by putting in a sliding glass door the entire opening or that along with a wall ; that makes it a 2 bedroom condo with total 900 square feet ; that is what my Bay Point condo had back in early 1990s

Bay Point is the best place on Earth for any of you all that want to retire and move to paradise (Florida panhandle)

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I don't care where you guys live. AD obviously mentions it frequently. So do I. Market seems confused and/or overbuilt in certain states dragging down the national average.

My small town we had 20 years of ZERO building. Nothing. With higher interest rates, we have more building of businesses and housing. Same in neighboring towns. Places like FL, TX, MT, ID, AZ, CO still had solid building after the bust. Those are the states that take the beating in my opinion. AD in the Panhandle shouldn't be too bad. The penis of FL might not do so well.

We're doing good in these parts of IL. We already had our exodus though. Minimal inflow, but people are finally staying and need to catch up with 20 years of no building as younger people stay and come to home buying age. It's still pretty affordable outside of yuppie suburbs. Chicago in neighborhoods you don't need a bullet proof vest, you're about the $1M price point. But that's not bad for Chicago white collar incomes. Technically cheap.

My car renews DMV registration fee was $820 in CA vs, $75 in TX.

More private owners are trying to get subsidized by Corp-Gov shennanigans to house up migrants. Good news, locals are starting to be more aware.

https://patrick.net/post/1382069/2024-09-13-people-getting-wise-to-the-landlord

REpro says

My car renews DMV registration fee was $820 in CA vs, $75 in TX.

That's insane without a freeze thaw cycle in much of the state. I think we're $135(ish).

Also, instead of disliking a comment, just ignore me. Petty.

I like up and down voting. It’s feedback.

It's another massive bubble... worse than the '08 one.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA

But will it pop?

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It should be about 240 not 320 if you follow the trend line. This means housing would drop 25% (from 320 to 240). This aligns just with the 30 year mortgage rate rising from 3% (when peak prices were set in early 2022) to currently 6%.

Housing should be 258 if you go by a 3.5% annual appreciation from 1990 to 2024, so my trend line may be overly cautious or conservative.

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GNL says

But will it pop?

Everything seems to point as far as the Federal Reserve letting the air out slowly of the asset/housing balloon, while household income/wages catch up with housing prices, and the 30 year mortgage rate slowly gravitates to and steadies around 5.5%.

And all of this helps reduction in interest rates (10 Year Treasury well below its recent high of 5%) helps the federal guvmint borrow at lower rates, while it steadily inflates out of a debt crisis with inflation between 2 and 3%.

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https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA

RC2006 says

I know inflation is propping up prices but how much longer can it last for places like CA. After reading about insurance increases in CA I got a few quotes for my old house I sold. In 2020 my last insurance payment was 1150 now it's around 3k that and property tax the couple that bought my house are paying almost a thousand a month in tax and insurance. Add in car insurance and other cost of living increases and I don't see how everything is still going. Is everyone still there seeing these increases?

There was a headline in the local paper (SJ Mercury) that an income of at least $300k is needed for the cheapest "starter" home in SJ. I did not read article as it's behind a paywall.

I think what has happened is that we've become a third world country, where housing is "affordable" for only the wealthy. Maybe this is why prices haven't fallen much even with the increased insurance, local tax, mortgage rates. Because we've gone past the transition to third-world status.

This is how Socialism/Communism is born. Make most of the population unable to live or own anything, and they become dependent on government and vote accordingly for the most free shit they can get their hands on.

porkchopXpress says

This is how Socialism/Communism is born. Make most of the population unable to live or own anything, and they become dependent on government and vote accordingly for the most free shit they can get their hands on.

Except none of Commie regimes were installed via elections: it was always through the barrel of a gun.

porkchopXpress says

This is how Socialism/Communism is born. Make most of the population unable to live or own anything, and they become dependent on government and vote accordingly for the most free shit they can get their hands on.

I wonder how much of the conditions are intentional in the current making of a Dollar General versus Ferrari economy , but I do hope at least the economy is not hampered on the supply side as far as provide more affordable housing

I see more multifamily housing going up in Panama City Beach and Bay County, Florida despite current interest rates and hoping housing costs stay flat at least over the next 5 years and then after local household income keeps up with housing costs

https://www.zerohedge.com/personal-finance/clash-dollar-general-versus-ferrari-economies

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But I'm seeing over the last 30 years the gentrification of Panama City Beach as far as Roll Tide crowd versus Uppity, OverEducated crowd (Walmart / Dollar Tree crowd versus Whole Foods / North Face crowd)

Less and less trailer parks on Panama City Beach with most the concentration on Joan Avenue leading to local fixture and bike week headquarters (Newbys)

As South Walton (Watercolor to Rosemary Beach) overfills with the deep-pocketed tourists all the way from Naperville, Illinois and Red Bank, New Jersey, that just results in an overflow to next door Bay County, Florida (Panama City Beach) which creates more gentrification pressure

Roll Tide.
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The_Deplorable says

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CSUSHPINSA

Most of the conditions were intentional like the Asian Tiger Moms and Smug White Liberal districts and zip codes stopping affordable housing developments in order to protect their turf especially in regards to local public school demographics and test scores.

Then there was the finanacialization of housing , treating it as a commodity or cash box such as with reverse mortgages and HELOCs which allows senior citizens to remain in housing starting at age 62 and with no motivation to sell and downgrade to a Jerry Seinfeld-style condo in Boca Raton.

Combine with developers having no incentive to build 1500 square foot, single family detached homes.

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AD says

Combine with developers having no incentive to build 1500 square foot, single family detached homes.

Why don't developers this size home any more? Are they not profitable?

gabbar says

AD says

Combine with developers having no incentive to build 1500 square foot, single family detached homes.

Why don't developers this size home any more? Are they not profitable?

I guess the county sets restrictions on minimum square footage per lot, and because of the building code requirements and various fixed costs like developer permit fees, impact fees, etc., it is not economically beneficial to build less than 2300 square feet.

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Interesting story heard today about two dumbasses who brought STRs in Maui. One a local who brought 3-4 STRs, marketed as STRs, who is complaining that he never knew, and neither the Realtors nor Local Gov officials he questioned ever informed him, that most of them were in proposed STR ban area.

So the dumbass never considered "Can I make money or at least have the properties break even if I have to convert these to year-lease rentals?" and now that Maui has gone ahead with the proposal, he will probably lose all his properties.

The next one is just another "Fake Rich" story. Apparently some guy in Arizona brought an STR in Maui that he could ONLY afford to use if he rented it Short term 9 months of the year. And he again fell into this proposed area. This one also made me laugh because if you have to depend on AirBNB short terms to make owning a "2nd Home/Vacation Property" do-able, that is, you NEED that 9 months of Short Term constant turnover just to pay for the property, you're not really an investor and quite a dumbass: Wouldn't it be better to simply rent yourself than be utterly dependent on renting it out 9 months of the year just to keep above water on it?

Florida Inventory is now well above pre-pandemic levels. I stand my prediction that 2 quarters after the Fed Rate cut this month, prices will have started to drop substantially.

I will try to dig up a Median LIST (not Sold) Price chart for Florida (whole state, not by city/region).

AmericanKulak says

So the dumbass never considered "Can I make money or at least have the properties break even if I have to convert these to year-lease rentals?" and now that Maui has gone ahead with the proposal, he will probably lose all his properties.

Sounds like my former boss. Only in Chicago. I told him is was a stupid idea. It's fucking Chicago. They were already regulating it at the time too. I told him do you trust these dip shits in charge? They will make it harder to do or tax your already low margins.

Everyone is always optimistic on paper. I'll have the place rented 350 days of the year. I'm pessimistic. I assume the worst. Hence why I got out of real estate, at least residential. I won't touch residential rentals ever again unless I live in it 6 months of the year. In IL if you rent 9 out of 10 times you're usually a deadbeat. Not saying all rentals nationwide. Just around me.

LOL, No sirree, buddy. I'm not paying a Federal Reserve tax of $140k

gabbar says

AD says

Combine with developers having no incentive to build 1500 square foot, single family detached homes.

Why don't developers this size home any more? Are they not profitable?

As long as they can sell more profitable luxury houses, they have no incentive to build affordable housing.

https://fortune.com/2024/09/16/housing-market-lower-mortgage-rates-no-buyers/

Lower mortgage rates aren’t igniting the housing market.

zzyzzx says

https://fortune.com/2024/09/16/housing-market-lower-mortgage-rates-no-buyers/

Lower mortgage rates aren’t igniting the housing market.

The locked-in 30 yr mortgage rate was around 3% when prices peaked in Florida panhandle around early 2022. For every 1% increase in the 30 yr mortgage rate, there should be a 10% drop in price.

So if the rate steadies to 5.5%, then prices should be 25% below peak level (WITHOUT accounting for gain in household income/wages since early 2022).

As far as your other post, maybe buyers (which about 50% of them are landlord investors for townhomes in Panama City Beach) are "staying on the sidelines" hoping rates drop to 3% AGAIN and hoping for a "deflationary spiral" in housing prices.

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AmericanKulak says

Wouldn't it be better to simply rent yourself than be utterly dependent on renting it out 9 months of the year just to keep above water on it?

But then you lose the bragging rights of "I control $XXX,XXX in properties". 🤡 Where's fun in that?

Lots of price reductions in Santa Cruz lately, more inventory on the market. Couple of places around my hood are going on five months with nibbles but no bites. That's nearly unheard of for the time we have had our place there.

zzyzzx says

As long as they can sell more profitable luxury houses, they have no incentive to build affordable housing.

That's true as they will build what they can sell for the maximum profit.

Need to figure out how to sell $250,000 3 bedroom/2 bath/1500 square foot single family detached starter homes at a profit without any subsidies.
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