patrick.net

NuttBoxer says

El Cajon is way too city for me. Where I live we call going to San Diego(which starts in El Cajon), "Going into town", or "Going down the hill".

Good! I'd rather you not have to live there it's a shit hole. Smog seems to accumulate in that valley as well. Further East IS quite nice though. I'd considered moving out that way but muh commute.

Bitcoiner says

I don’t know if CA allows these kind of agreements.

I do. In California you are not allowed to collect the remaining months on the lease unless you can prove you've made a reasonable effort to re-rent the property. It's California, the owner gets screwed at every turn, anyone who lives here knows that. I don't have to make assumptions because this has been my area of expertise for 20 years. You learn a thing or two after dealing with a bad owner, and we've had one or two. Most of them have been like you though, rare rent raises, and appreciation for the value good tenants bring.

Bitcoiner says

NuttBoxer says

When do you think people are more likely to overpay, and attempt to over-charge, at the bottom, or at the top? Unless you don't believe there will ever bet a bottom..?

You understand why I don’t believe in overpaying and why it really doesn’t matter?
Years later those prices appear as cheap.

I do, you very clearly answered the above question about if you think there will ever a bottom, you don't. Given the state of the economy, that is wishful thinking indeed my friend. You didn't answer the other part, but that's ok, with logical reasoning, it's pretty rhetorical.

just_passing_through says

Good! I'd rather you not have to live there it's a shit hole. Smog seems to accumulate in that valley as well. Further East IS quite nice though. I'd considered moving out that way but muh commute.

I went to college in East El Cajon, city never impressed me. I remember the joke was you're doing well if you could find an El Cajon girl with both of her front teeth.

Out in the mountains/foothills though you get almost daily sun, if fog rolls in from the coast burns off early morning. A bit warmer and cooler, but way less humidity. I really love this area. If we had been open to buying out here in '11 and known about the USDA, would never be leaving. But that's not who we were back then, we were city folks.

If only, if only...

With any housing situation the key is to not move. Rent long term and the landlord is happy with minimal increases. Own long term and you locked in your monthly nut for 30 years generally. It's the duration of living there that's the biggest factor.

The only issue with rentals and being a tenant is if the landlord decides to sell. They do. I've lived it. You're fucked. With renting there's another party in the monthly transaction. They might be an ass hole. They might try to control what you do with the property. My mortgage company give no shits about what I do to the property as long as I'm paying. And that payment will stay the same.

I get people don't like debt, but owning is the better route for 9 out of 10 people. The 10% that can save, invest and rent are kind of unicorns. Renters generally don't save as much as owners. Owners are forced savers by paying principle. Very, very few renters set aside money for investment. It happens, but is not common.

Place we paid the least for and liked the best got sold. We did get the first chance to buy, but mortgage would have been too high. Hmm, cheaper to rent than to buy?

So just on this site you know Patrick, myself, and I believe there are a few others who have rented quite a bit. The chances of that 10% being on patnet seems pretty slim. Further, as I've mentioned, my personal experience is irresponsible people certainly buy houses, and responsible people definitely rent. If I didn't know better, I'd swear you guys learned economics from realtors ;)

Definitely all for the long-term either way. Stability is a good thing.

NuttBoxer says

Further, as I've mentioned, my personal experience is irresponsible people certainly buy houses, and responsible people definitely rent. If I didn't know better, I'd swear you guys learned economics from realtors ;)

Renters are the worst to deal with. I've been a landlord. "A fucking ant is in my house come throw chemicals at it." "My dad died I need two weeks to pay rent." Fine, you're a good tenant. That's not the norm. It's not a judgement on you personally. Renters suck. It's not easy money like some portray. It's a pain in the ass and anyone saying otherwise is lying.

Even with the best of screening tenants are shit 50% of the time. This is 100% fact having rented over 1k apartment units. My evidence is beyond anecdotal. I was a good tenant when I leased. Most aren't.

WookieMan says

I've been a landlord.

Same here, but for only the 10 SFH houses that I personally owed. Even on that scale owning rentals is more of a part time job than a passive investment.

Bitcoiner says

Did you manage them all yourself or did you have a property manager? Did you end up selling them all?

I managed them all myself except one, and I sold the last one off a couple years ago. The one exception was because I left town. I did not own all 10 at once, I only had 4 that I owned simultaneously.

WookieMan says

NuttBoxer says

Further, as I've mentioned, my personal experience is irresponsible people certainly buy houses, and responsible people definitely rent. If I didn't know better, I'd swear you guys learned economics from realtors ;)

Renters are the worst to deal with. I've been a landlord. "A fucking ant is in my house come throw chemicals at it." "My dad died I need two weeks to pay rent." Fine, you're a good tenant. That's not the norm. It's not a judgement on you personally. Renters suck. It's not easy money like some portray. It's a pain in the ass and anyone saying otherwise is lying.

Even with the best of screening tenants are shit 50% of the time. This is 100% fact having rented over 1k apartment units. My evidence is beyond anecdotal. I was a good tenant when I leased. Most aren't.

Interesting data. I guess the quality of tenants is better here in the Bay Area? My biz partner and I have over 100 units. 96 units are managed by a property management (PM) company. The other could handful units, we still manage them as they’ve been our long-term tenant. Whenever these tenants leave, I’ll either sell or turn them over to the PM company.

Out of the 96 units, we had 3 evictions. They were all legacy tenants, which we evicted shortly after the purchase. I guess previous owners got burned out from self-managing. We have not had one eviction with our PM company. Pretty amazing screening process would you say?

I learned from our PM that it’s a business. Treat it as such and don’t let it bother us. It’s been serving me well. We have a full-time handyman who handles all the repairs and rehab. Without a handyman, the repair cost would be higher so it cuts into the cash flow, but it can be quite passive. The more passive, the more it’ll cost. It’s that simple.

I self-managed 18 units before I met my partner and scaled up to apartment buildings. At that time, I found it could be a little annoying at times as things tend to break on a Friday before the long holiday weekend. However, it’s still much much better than working a W2. What I’ve learned is that if I’m willing to pay a premium, someone will make fix it and make the problem go away. All in all, I’d rather scaled up to 200 units and be an investor than to hold down a W2. It’s a great trade for me.

Eman says

Interesting data. I guess the quality of tenants is better here in the Bay Area? My biz partner and I have over 100 units. 96 units are managed by a property management (PM) company. The other could handful units, we still manage them as they’ve been our long-term tenant. Whenever these tenants leave, I’ll either sell or turn them over to the PM company.

Out of the 96 units, we had 3 evictions. They were all legacy tenants, which we evicted shortly after the purchase (some text omitted to shorten quote...) 18 units before I met my partner and scaled up to apartment buildings. At that time, I found it could be a little annoying at times as things tend to break on a Friday before the long holiday weekend. However, it’s still much much better than working a W2. What I’ve learned is that if I’m willing to pay a premium, someone will make fix it and make the problem go away. All in all, I’d rather scaled up to 200 units and be an investor than to hold down a W2. It’s a great trade for me.

I agree! Just don’t lose money!

WookieMan says

Roths, 401k, HSA, IRA, etc. If you max those out then fine have $40k or $40M in a savings account that could be seized if you default. At that point there's no reason to default, just pay. I'm strictly talking in strategic senses. Middle class person with $100k family income loses a job and can't pay the mortgage. Leverage the default as much as you can. One by not paying. Two protect yourself/finances. Third is short sell and get all liability waived. I/we did this with pro (some text omitted to shorten quote...) se funds. Not one client had a dime taken from their checking or savings. The loans are sold off, but even then I would never bank with who lends me the money unless it's a commercial/business account.

I'm in by no ways promoting dumping debt. If you get yourself in a fucked up situation there is a way out is all I'm saying. Too many think it's doom and gloom and do something stupid including taking their life... over money and credit. You can always make more and repair it.

Thank you. I understand. I agree. I will admit that I am risk averse. I went through a bad phase in my life and that experience changed me and made me conservative. No complaints though. Again, thank you very much for this ground reality, Wookieman.

WookieMan says

Renters are the worst to deal with. I've been a landlord. "A fucking ant is in my house come throw chemicals at it." "My dad died I need two weeks to pay rent." Fine, you're a good tenant. That's not the norm. It's not a judgement on you personally. Renters suck. It's not easy money like some portray. It's a pain in the ass and anyone saying otherwise is lying.

Even with the best of screening tenants are shit 50% of the time. This is 100% fact having rented over 1k apartment units. My evidence is beyond anecdotal. I was a good tenant when I leased. Most aren't.

My boss used to be a landlord. He said he sold all his properties because it was not worth it for him. He was an accountant by education.

Eman says

96 units are managed by a property management (PM) company.

We were the property management company and brokerage so we could get the sale in the future. So the owners didn't deal with shit. It wasn't 1k units at one time either, just over 15 years filling vacancies 5 times a month or so.

Chicago proper is a vastly different rental market. Professional, well off people don't rent there. They live in the suburbs or they own their condo or home. These were city rentals in any neighborhood in the city. As fact known nationally, Chicago is not the nicest or well run city and it's 100% a tenant friendly city as well. Copious amounts of regulation.

I may get back into it personally. Facebook I know, but our townie page with 2k people has people asking for rentals DAILY. There's nothing as people are leaving urban areas and building basically stopped where I'm at. So if I can find a steal of a deal I might pull the trigger. I don't think I'd want more than 5 unless someone else is on board. I really don't want to have to answer to others. Give me a task and I'll do it, but leave me alone and don't fuck with me.

I mention the ant thing because it is that time of year here. We'd get calls and just bring over a bunch of pods they crawl in and die basically. Walk in the kitchen and be like, you know why you have fucking ants bro? You haven't cleaned the floor, the sink is full of dirty dishes, etc. People in cities live in filth and blame the landlord for their own actions.

I no longer hold a RE license, so it's okay to say this in my world. And this isn't a blanket statement. Black people are AWFUL tenants unless they're profession level with a good job. Which means 90% are bad. Mexican have the dirtiest kitchens in my experience. They love their cooking but apparently not cleaning it up. The stove hoods I've seen in Chicago you'd need a paint scraper to get the grease and grime off of it in the Mexican neighborhoods. White were a problem but that was mainly drug use and alcohol. Same for the blacks. Chicago is a weird city once you get in the underbelly and away from tourist spots.

If you're shielded from the shit with a PM you could have 1k units at once and it would seem easy. The key I would tell anyone is be patient, location (not regulations above) and don't overpay ever.

WookieMan says

The key I would tell anyone is be patient, location (not regulations above) and don't overpay ever.

What's PM?
Charlie Munger would agree with this.

gabbar says

WookieMan says

The key I would tell anyone is be patient, location (not regulations above) and don't overpay ever.

What's PM?
Charlie Munger would agree with this.

Property manager. You lose 10% or so but you don't have to deal with the day to day generally. Self managed rentals are a nightmare if you have no clue. Appliances break, roofs leak, things break, etc. You have to know how to manage that. So you pay someone 10% or so of rents so buying right and being patient is critical. Bird-dogging and finding owners that might sell off market it critical. You're generally not going to find a deal through a Realtor or MLS. Anytime a broker is involved you're looking at a 2-3% loss out the gate and potentially 6%.

Think little things too. Keep going back to ants. Think about a mouse and you have a female renter. They're going to freak out and call the PM or you if you're doing it yourself. Depends on your screening, but if a tenant calls and is gonna be 5 days late, do you play hardball or be nice.? Next time it's 10 days and it compounds as they try to take advantage of you.

There are other layers depending on location. Section 8 tenants. They're not all bad, but some are super righteous. Most are confused that you can discriminate and not accept section 8 tenants and will threaten you with lawsuit. The local housing agency inspects your property. There's no law that says you have to agree with that in any municipality that I've seen.

Fact is you have to have some thick skin or be willing to eat about 10% of profits on a PM. Which is fine. Pareto principle (80/20 rule). 80% of your tenants will tend to be a pain in the butt. If you screen right and get the 20% of responsible humans, you're on easy street. You're printing money. It takes work if you're doing it yourself. Or it takes work to find the right PM.

Other thing is you need to know basics about homes. Furnace, dishwasher, plumbing, electric, etc. If you don't know any of that I wouldn't touch real estate. You will get screwed by repair people and contractors. Kind of goes for home ownership as well. Have a water heater blow and not know how to replace it. $2k later for a $500 fix. The list goes on. Not trying to stop people from getting into rentals properties, but it's not a cakewalk. It's like restaurants. Most fail at it thinking it would be easy. You need a plan and structure.

Bitcoiner says

I’ll stick with long term SFH’s in good locations. Might add a vacation rental down the road.

Single family homes are the way to go in my opinion. As usual and you mention it location is key. Usually requires a higher price out of the gate is the biggest issue.

Before high building costs (coming down) and high interest rates, building townhomes and apartments was pretty lucrative. Little to no maintenance. Single family though is just easier if you have the tenant manage landscaping and lawn care and they feel like it's their home. No neighbors banging on the floors and walls. Easier resale because few people are going to buy 4-50 units at once, so appreciation should be solid if you're holding long term.

Vacation rentals are intriguing. I sincerely don't know the management aspect of it. How hands on it is. I know Just_passing_through has a Hawaii rental. I just don't know if something as simple as a cleaning person missing a pubic hair on the toilet becomes a problem. I'm easy to please. I repaired a pool heater in Anna Maria Island, FL at a vacation rental. I imagine most people would just bitch and whine. I'd love to buy a 2/2 on St. John USVI and have renters pay for the thing for when we officially retire and I'm free and clear on my IL mortgage and down there. Bounce back during hurricane season.

Bitcoiner says

When you compared the rent to the mortgage. How did this look like? On your PITI, the P is your forced savings account. Did you deduct that to compare? Would you have put at least 20% down?

The rent was $1,450 for a 3/1 house. For most of the four years we lived there it was $1,375. West side of Chula Vista, older blue collar neighborhood. There were asking in the $300k range. At 20%, which we didn't have back then(I never took work seriously until I was almost 30), with maintenance, would still have been more.

Here's the other thing owners don't think about. There's no fucking way I'll ever live in a city again in California after scamdemic. The only reason we lasted was because in our small town, no one gave a shit about that stuff. Also, the school my daughter was enrolled at in Chula Vista never taught math. I'm not kidding. She was two-three years behind when we transferred her to Phoenix. Took tutoring and some really good teachers, and a lot of work by her and us to catch her up.

All that to say there's no way we would have stayed. And thanks to renting, we had the freedom to make those choices.

On the bad renters, again this is a bullshit false paradigm. Some people are more responsible than other, more honest, harder working. Doesn't matter if they're the landlord or the tenant, those are personality traits. I've known plenty of tenants who get taken advantage of because they don't know the law. And the reason landlords get bad tenants, they don't know how to screen. A credit score is not a good way to screen people. Job history and personal references are more important, as well as past rental history.
Especially when the landlord takes the first person to get their app in. If someone can move in on a moment's notice, that should tell you something...

WookieMan says

Bird-dogging and finding owners that might sell off market it critical.

How does one find owners that might sell off market?

WookieMan says

It's like restaurants. Most fail at it thinking it would be easy. You need a plan and structure.

Nassim Taleb discourages people to go into restaurant business because of the competition. Do you think restaurants pay taxes on cash received as payments from dining customers? I recall reading somewhere that restaurants (hotels too?) have 2 books; I for IRS (doesn't have cash payments etc.) and one that's factual (for internal confidential use)

NuttBoxer says

On the bad renters, again this is a bullshit false paradigm. Some people are more responsible than other, more honest, harder working. Doesn't matter if they're the landlord or the tenant, those are personality traits. I've known plenty of tenants who get taken advantage of because they don't know the law. And the reason landlords get bad tenants, they don't know how to screen. A credit score is not a good way to screen people. Job history and personal references are more important, as well as past rental history.
Especially when the landlord takes the first person to get their app in. If someone can move in on a moment's notice, that should tell you something...

I lived with a roommate who didn't know how to piss in the toilet bowl with accuracy. Needless to say, landlord was happy when he vacated.

WookieMan says

Black people are AWFUL tenants

And awful neighbors.

The only neighbors I ever had problem with were gay whites and Mexicans. The black ones at my complex hang out in their garage and drink beer during the summer. I still owe them a beer.

Bitcoiner says

WookieMan says

I'd love to buy a 2/2 on St. John USVI and have renters pay for the thing

Like that idea! Never been to St John. Have you been to other islands like Turks and Caicos?

If I have to guess, they’re all beautiful. Been thinking of buying a vacation rental/property where it can “almost” pay for itself when not in use. Haven’t figured out the location and asset….yet

WookieMan says

Kind of goes for home ownership as well. Have a water heater blow and not know how to replace it. $2k later for a $500 fix. The list goes on. Not trying to stop people from getting into rentals properties, but it's not a cakewalk. It's like restaurants. Most fail at it thinking it would be easy. You need a plan and structure.

Given our rents are high, our PM charges 5% flat rate for apartments and 6% for SFH/unit. Our market has two of the best PM companies, Zell and Atlantis Properties.

You’ve been out of the biz for too long. There’s no $500 water heaters. Changing a water heater is $1.5k each with our handyman. $925 for water heater and parts. $550 for him and his helper. If we use the plumber from our PM company, it runs $2,250 each.

For 100-gallon water heaters, we have our GC do it for $3.3k. Our PM’s plumber quotes came in between $4.8-$5.5k.

With our handyman, if he can complete a couple tasks a day, he has earned his money. He comes to work at 8-9am and leaves around 2-3pm, but still gets paid for the whole 8 hours. Electrician and plumber bill rates are $145 to $155/hour. Our handyman normally completes 4-5 tasks each day. If there’s not much for him to do, we have him help out with vacuuming and cleaning the common areas, or repairing around the buildings. Always things to do all year around.

Work order from the PM, pass it to him and he’ll take care of it. If he couldn’t take care of it, we have the PM assign it out. It’s great.

Bitcoiner says

Have you been to other islands like Turks and Caicos?

Bahamas, Cayman, Puerto Rico, Jamaica, Dominican, St Marten, Aruba, Curaçao, USVI (St. Thomas and St. John), BVI (Virgin Gorda, Salt Island, Normans Cay, Tortola), Mexico (Isla Mujeres & Cozumel). Been to Cancun region and Costa Rica. I may have been drunk, but I think I've been to Belize.

Covid fucked up 8 other islands for first time visits as the trip was cancelled. Basically all the Lessor Antilles. St. Lucia, Barbados, Antigua, etc. I hate Fauci, but it's one of my biggest beefs with Trump. He fucked up a trip of a lifetime that was cheap based on a little shit New Yorker shit bag. Again shit. Not a death threat, but he's the closet person I'd make a death threat towards.

The Caribbean will be my second home at some point. It's 3-4 hours tops to get to most islands in the Caribbean from Chicago. Maybe a layover and have a beer or 5. You West Coast guys have it easy with Hawaii and Baja Mexico being near. 4 hours is the max I'm on a plane. So San Diego is about it for me. No interest in LA or SF. I want to do the South Pacific and New Zealand. But that's a 3-4 year plan budget thing. We'd take the kids so we're talking $12-18k in airfare for 5 at minimum. Myself and the wife will go first class, kids economy. Not doing 18 hours at 6'3" in a shitty seat.

I totally missed what I wanted to talk about. Turk and Caicos is massively expensive. Massively. I want to go, but a week trip even in a condo, you'll get nailed for $10k even in off season. TC is massively expensive. I haven't been, and likely won't because it's just stupid money to be honest. There's value elsewhere that only one step down from TC from what I've heard at least. I'll go at some point, just not with kids. Get a studio or 1 bed place.

Eman says

Given our rents are high, our PM charges 5% flat rate for apartments and 6% for SFH/unit. Our market has two of the best PM companies, Zell and Atlantis Properties.

You’ve been out of the biz for too long. There’s no $500 water heaters. Changing a water heater is $1.5k each with our handyman. $925 for water heater and parts. $550 for him and his helper. If we use the plumber from our PM company, it runs $2,250 each.

For 100-gallon water heaters, we have our GC do it for $3.3k. Our PM’s plumber (some text omitted to shorten quote...) t 8-9am and leaves around 2-3pm, but still gets paid for the whole 8 hours. Electrician and plumber bill rates are $145 to $155/hour. Our handyman normally completes 4-5 tasks each day. If there’s not much for him to do, we have him help out with vacuuming and cleaning the common areas, or repairing around the buildings. Always things to do all year around.

These rates should be posted on university bulletin boards.

WookieMan says

Bahamas, Cayman, Puerto Rico, Jamaica, Dominican, St Marten, Aruba, Curaçao, USVI (St. Thomas and St. John), BVI (Virgin Gorda, Salt Island, Normans Cay, Tortola), Mexico (Isla Mujeres & Cozumel). Been to Cancun region and Costa Rica. I may have been drunk, but I think I've been to Belize.

Covid fucked up 8 other islands for first time visits as the trip was cancelled. Basically all the Lessor Antilles. St. Lucia, Barbados, Antigua, etc. I hate Fauci, but it's one of my biggest beefs with Trump. He fucked up a trip of a lifetime that was cheap based on a little shit New Yorker shit bag. Again shit. Not a death threat, but he's the closet person I'd make a death threat towards.

Which beach is the warmest and most beautiful in your opinion?

WookieMan says

I totally missed what I wanted to talk about. Turk and Caicos is massively expensive. Massively. I want to go, but a week trip even in a condo, you'll get nailed for $10k even in off season. TC is massively expensive. I haven't been, and likely won't because it's just stupid money to be honest. There's value elsewhere that only one step down from TC from what I've heard at least. I'll go at some point, just not with kids. Get a studio or 1 bed place.

WTF??? Try Ocean Casio in Atlantic City. Way cheaper and better. You'll thank me later.

1337irr says

On a tangent, but former Californian homeowners who sell and move to Texas do complain about property taxes and learn to protest them. Texas puts the "taxes" in Texas. You can't spell taxes without Texas :)

Texans buy a $500k house and complain that 5% taxes on it costs them $25k/year.
Californians buy the same quality house, but it costs $2.5MM. Then they complain that the 1% tax costs them $25k/year for a mediocre house.
Seems like everyone figures out something to complain about.

SunnyvaleCA says

Texans buy a $500k house and complain that 5% taxes on it costs them $25k/year.
Californians buy the same quality house, but it costs $2.5MM. Then they complain that the 1% tax costs them $25k/year for a mediocre house.

Yeah but the Texans don't pay State Income Tax.

Bitcoiner says

Mexicans like to listen to terrible music in their BY’s / patios until early morning. And once they are drunk on cheap beer they start adding singing which is obviously worse than the music.

Tell us your story with gay whites. Lol

Yep on the music, but that's only during fiestas, and only on the weekend. I never say shit if it's on the weekend. The bad Mexican neighbors, one had about 4-5 dogs that would start howling in the middle of the night, and not for just a minute. Loud enough to wake me up with all the windows closed. One time I was talking to my friend during the evening and they started up, and he was like "Holy fuck! You live next to a dog pound or something!?"
The other one was this old piece of shit who acted like he owned the place(he didn't). Asshole did everything from accuse me of dumping a toilet in front of his garbage(keep in mind we're all renting), to yelling at my nine year old daughter, to threatening me. Older guy so I didn't escalate too much, because kind of unfair.

Actually had a white bitch who lived over here, only neighbor we ever disliked, who would always make comments to my daughters about our dogs when they were out using the bathroom. Never to me or my wife though.

So the gay neighbors. Dude got a dog, but had no idea how to take care of him. This was Arizona, and our backyard was rocks, so always let my dogs out in the front yard. My chihuahua's are old, and mostly toothless, all bark, but they do like to act aggressive if someone comes by the yard. Thing is this guy never needed to cross in front of our house. He could have easily walked the other direction. But dude insisted on walking across our property, then would freak out whenever our dogs would be let out to use the bathroom, and would bark at his dog. He wanted me to leash my dogs in my own front yard. Of course fuck him, I never changed anything I did.

Also lived next to a crazy lady, legit crazy, and probably Mexican. But that's it's own story..

Eman says

If I have to guess, they’re all beautiful. Been thinking of buying a vacation rental/property where it can “almost” pay for itself when not in use. Haven’t figured out the location and asset….yet

Dominican Republic is pretty affordable, and not too far from the mainland.

NuttBoxer says

So the gay neighbors. Dude got a dog, but had no idea how to take care of him. This was Arizona, and our backyard was rocks, so always let my dogs out in the front yard. My chihuahua's are old, and mostly toothless, all bark, but they do like to act aggressive if someone comes by the yard. Thing is this guy never needed to cross in front of our house. He could have easily walked the other direction. But dude insisted on walking across our property, then would freak out whenever our dogs would be let out to use the bathroom, and would bark at his dog. He wanted me to leash my dogs in my own front yard. Of course fuck him, I never changed anything I did.

That doesn't sound like it was about his gayness.

When I was in college I had a gay roommate. He was the landlord renting out spare rooms in his McMansion. It got kind of weird when a "friend" who in the Gay Community might be referred to as "a flamer" moved in, to share the master bedroom with the homeowner. This was in 1985-86 when Rock Hudson was sick from AIDS. At the time they were still trying to figure out how the disease was spread. Me and the other two tenants moved out to get away from the milieu.

zzyzzx says

WTF??? Try Ocean Casio in Atlantic City. Way cheaper and better. You'll thank me later.

I've been. No thanks. The Carolinas are one of the few beach areas I've neglected. Honestly anything Atlantic side is pretty shitty as far as my beach standards go and what I've experienced. Mexico beaches generally blow too. Sargassum flows are a massive problem in the Yucatan. You'll get 2' of that shit on the beach overnight and it smells like shit.

If it's a conversation about water and sand specifically. Nothing I've ever experienced is better than the panhandle of FL for sand. On a calm day the water competes with the Caribbean. The Atlantic simply cannot do that. And the sand sucks.

Bitcoiner says

Besides St. John, which ones are your favorite islands where you could see yourself buying a vacation home?

St. Croix or St. Thomas for ease of travel. US territories and all. Vieques or Culabra, Puerto Rico are intriguing, but have yet to go (massive tax advantages). Mainland is eh... Cool spots but it has a more urban feel.

I'd say Cayman or Aruba if going the expat route. Mexico is intriguing for costs but I'm not certain a vacation rental option to get it paid down while I wait would work there. People want resorts. Cayman, Aruba, USVI all have a vacation rental industry that's strong. BVI is an option too, but I'm not a fan of British regulations. Covid for example. They shut that place the fuck down.

I need ease of travel with family and kids back on the mainland. 4 hour flight or under, non-stop or short layover. Aruba is probably the best due to extremely limited hurricane chances. St. John is 3/4's National Park. The only good thing the Rockefeller family did well on. Unless I fall into money I'm looking at a studio or best case 2/1 at $800k on St. John today. I've got people down there now that with a rental I could set renters up with an amazing time.

B.A.C.A.H. says

That doesn't sound like it was about his gayness.

Of course not, anymore than the Mexican experiences had to do with being Mexican, or the white ones with being white. I've said this a lot of different ways, but let me say it again. People act the way they do because of who they are, on the inside. Once you start labeling actions by outside characteristics, be it renters, fags, niggers, arabs, etc, you expose yourself as a bigot.

I guess this is just more hyperbole and rents will NEVER GO DOWN AGAIN!!!

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/us-rents-verge-first-annual-drop-covid-crash-amid-supply-glut

Eman says

Given our rents are high, our PM charges 5% flat rate for apartments and 6% for SFH/unit.

That's a good rate for sure. It wasn't worth waking up for $200/month on Chicago rents. So rates are higher here. One call could cost you $200 in time and gas so you're negative managing it. Lot of evictions in Chicago and they take a long time.

When I was talking about the water heater I was talking about DYI landlords. I can get 50 gallon units for $600 and put it in myself. Pricing is different everywhere. I'd expect CA to be higher and then factor in labor. I can do it though for the cost of the WH. Do I want to? No.

I've had fucking nightmares. Had tenants throw their air mattress into the furnace closet. Condensation pipe for the AC snapped and pushed the sump pump float to the bottom (empty pit). It wasn't and flooded the basement. Stupid little shit adds up. I'll admit I don't have it anymore, but would be open to 2-3 houses I personally own, not apartments. If you got good management awesome. But everyone starts small generally. You either have it or you don't. I don't like stress even with management.

Have you looked into warehouse and non-retail commercial space? My uncle pumps out $30-40k/mo on hassle free space that the tenants are required to take care of. Like a bus barn for a school district. One building. I'm avoiding personal interactions in real estate beside maybe a couple houses if I can find a deal.