patrick.net

Cheap Win laptops fall apart at a very rapid pace, especially when banged around in typical school use pattern.The ones which hold up like Macs cost pretty much on par with Macs.

SunnyvaleCA says

If the school says, specifically, that students are required to be equipped with a Windows computer, that may be because assignments are given with extra software the students have to use that only runs on Windows.

It's not really a matter of what you like or what you prefer or how "free and open" you wish to signal that you are. You may have locked yourself into an OS when you chose your school and/or department.

Right, I will get what the department recommends. IDooDahMan says

Using a ThinkPad here - flawless now for 3 years.

Here is a model to consider with Linux

ThinkPad P15v Gen 2 Intel (15") - Mobile Workstation with Linux

Part Number: 21A9CTO1WWUS2

$1,298.62

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/thinkpad-p15v-gen-2-(15-inch-intel)-mobile-workstation/21a9cto1wwus2

I gotta check what OS university/department recommends. Thanks for the recommendation.

SunnyvaleCA says

That didn't take long to move into the OS platform wars!

If the school says, specifically, that students are required to be equipped with a Windows computer, that may be because assignments are given with extra software the students have to use that only runs on Windows.

It's not really a matter of what you like or what you prefer or how "free and open" you wish to signal that you are. You may have locked yourself into an OS when you chose your school and/or department.

True, I don't think I can deviate from what the university recommends with regard to the OS

SunnyvaleCA says

That didn't take long to move into the OS platform wars!

If the school says, specifically, that students are required to be equipped with a Windows computer, that may be because assignments are given with extra software the students have to use that only runs on Windows.

It's not really a matter of what you like or what you prefer or how "free and open" you wish to signal that you are. You may have locked yourself into an OS when you chose your school and/or department.

You can always run a VM on it. But unless the degree is Computer Science I'd agree

SunnyvaleCA says

For actually doing coding assignments (or any other serious work), having 1 or 2 large external monitors, a decent mouse, and a decent keyboard are the most critical aspects.

I don't code. But this is 1,000% correct. I'd have two monitors beyond my main computer. Laptops frankly suck unless you travel a lot. When I've done video and audio work, I bought studio monitors for the audio. Never will go back. The right equipment goes a long way depending on the end goal. I dumped 64gb of RAM into my iMac when I got it. Running a 2015 and it runs smoother than a horny vagina.

I won't even touch a windows machine. I'm not a fan boi, but I'm in the Mac eco system and it hasn't failed me. Ever. Easy to upgrade for a non-techie. Since 2004 I've had 2 MacBooks and one iMac. Amortized that's like $150/yr. I've probably made $800k in that time as a work tool directly related to the income derived from the machines. I'm sure people do with other machines. I have no interest in changing. Not saying it's the best, but it's the best for me.

WookieMan says

don't code. But this is 1,000% correct. I'd have two monitors beyond my main computer. Laptops frankly suck unless you travel a lot. When I've done video and audio work, I bought studio monitors for the audio. Never will go back. The right equipment goes a long way depending on the end goal. I dumped 64gb of RAM into my iMac when I got it. Running a 2015 and it runs smoother than a horny vagina.

You both are right. Laptops do suck but I suspect that most college students just refuse to understand this. Lol....horny vagina.

16 GB of Ram is plenty. Windows or Mac is personal preference.... all have student discounts.

They are all about the same in my book.

I cant say I've tried a lot of different brands, but I've had great luck with thinkpads over the past 10 years. Specifically, the models marketed as workstations or business laptops. I heard these are specifically designed to be more reliable and stable via better drivers and hardware, and I've had great experience driver-wise with them, and never any hardware failure. I usually dual boot windows and linux and these models have always had great driver support in both.

The W and P series are big and powerful, good for coders.
The T series is smaller and lighter and still plenty capable, but not as powerful.
They also have the x series, which is ultra light/portable, and still somewhat powerful, but I think you pay for it.

I would avoid some of the less expensive models, like the gaming or student models - I dont think they have the same "it just always fucking works" qualities. Also pay attention to the processor. Some of the intel processors (I think the U and Y series) may sound like a beefy multi core i5 or i7, but theyre power saving models, that trade battery life in exchange for less processing power.

Hircus says

Some of the intel processors (I think the U and Y series) may sound like a beefy multi core i5 or i7, but theyre power saving models, that trade battery life in exchange for less processing power.

I had a ThinkPad a few years back but it got stolen. Never let me down.
Which processor would you recommend?

gabbar says

Which processor would you recommend?

They change this stuff often, but I think the current mobile performance line is the H series. So an i5 i7 or i9 w/ an H suffix . I think older models they called them HQ or MQ instead of H.

xeon cpus are also comparable to H (actually I think generally a bit higher end), but its kinda a high end thing allowing you to use ECC ram. I wouldnt mind one, but not sure I'd go out of my way for one unless I really wanted a top of the line model spare no cost.

Something like this would be a powerful laptop for coding that should easily last through graduation:
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/thinkpad-p15-gen-2-(15-inch-intel)/20yq009rus
-strong i7cpu, blazing fast nvme SSD, dedicated graphics card, 32GB ram, nice keyboard w/ number pad, great built in wifi + plenty of ports. The ram and cpu should let them run plenty of browser tabs + a VM or 2, + a few IDE instances + handful of other programs all at once (this is my typical day on a similar but lesser spec machine).
The standard 1080p thinkpad IPS screens are nice IMO - mine is crisp and clear for all my text editing, and videos and dark scenes are actually pretty good too, although I use external monitors when I can.

Could maybe save a bit by scaling down the preconfigured ram and disk, and upgrading them yourself later. Maybe consider the brighter 500nit screen if you think they might want to code outdoors often (I always liked doing that, and a bright screen helps when the sun creeps up on you).

I use a model like that now, but 4 years old.

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

Windows or Mac is personal preference. ... They are all about the same in my book

Then the instructor says: "For you next programming assignment, you will download this compiled library and link using Microsoft's linker that only runs on Windows 10."
And then you will suddenly realize that Microsoft's and Apple's library formats aren't compatible even if compiled for the exact same CPU.

Or you're following the instructional video of how to set up and use the Eclipse programming environment. It's available for MacOS, Windows, and Linux. Yay! Unfortunately, all the examples you're trying to follow are done on one of the 3 platforms and people on the other 2 platforms are left scratching their heads about critical but minor differences, which become major headaches.

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says

16 GB of Ram is plenty. Windows or Mac is personal preference.... all have student discounts.

Not a knock on anyone here, but no it's not. If you're actually working. Try editing even 1080p for a 15-20 minute clip and say 16GB is enough. It's not. There are other factors, but in video and audio marketing and for fun (for me) you need more. When I record I need 12-16 tracks for drums. Video in 4K is massive processing and file size.

I get your average user only needs 4-8 GB, but that ain't gonna do it if you want to be productive. I'm hesitant to dox myself, but I've got content that is easily 1TB for 6 minutes. Good luck doing that with 16GB in a timely manner. Possible yes. Time wise, hells no.

Hircus says

Maybe consider the brighter 500nit screen if you think they might want to code outdoors often (I always liked doing that, and a bright screen helps when the sun creeps up on you).

Thank you. Laptop screens are upgradeable at the time of purchase through Lenovo?
What screen size is appropriate? 14 or 15 inches?
Is aspect ratio important?

gabbar says

Thank you. Laptop screens are upgradeable at the time of purchase through Lenovo?
What screen size is appropriate? 14 or 15 inches?
Is aspect ratio important?

Laptops come with a specific screen, so if you are "upgrading" at time of purchase, you are just being sold a different product. That's fine, but it's important to note that you're getting a different computer, which might also have additional advantages. And, as you note, whatever you get you are stuck with. Good idea to get something you can live with.

If you're getting an external monitor, then the built-in doesn't matter so much — better to get a thinner, smaller, lighter laptop. If you're going to be watching 1080p video content full-screen on the laptop, then I suppose 16:9 aspect ratio would give you edge-to-edge video.

The big video requirement for me is that the laptop can drive a 1080p TV, 4k TV, and 4k monitor. Preferably... 2 4k monitors simultaneously.

HunterTits says

Don't they all use Macs on college?

Only Art Fags.

Lenovo has always sold both a variety of preconfigured models like the one I linked, but also allow you to customize them, paying a little more or less for each component you upgrade or downgrade. In the past even the custom ones usually got delivered in just a week or 2, but I just looked both the custom AND most preconfigured ones say "4+ month backlog"...damn supply chain. So I dunno if you can wait. They have a couple models in stock, but theyre very high end at like $4600 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/thinkpad-p15-gen-2-(15-inch-intel)/wmd00000487
Very nice...but expensive. I didnt look, but maybe they have some T series models in stock that arent $4k.

Either 14 or 15 is fine, but I prefer 15 if I have a choice, and most men I know who code often on just their laptops (i.e. no external monitor) do too. Most women seem to prefer 13" or 14". The additional screen size from 14 to 15 doesnt usually affect resolution or aspect ratio, but the same resolution w/ a bigger screen means everything is rendered a bit bigger, which helps a little bit. Also, the screen dictates the laptop dimensions, and the extra size makes for a more spacious keyboard layout, especially if you want a model with a numpad. 14" can get a bit cramped for a numpad, so not as many models have it. The drawback is a 15" model is bulkier, and heavier. But I think 15 is well suited to school. I used both 14 and 15 in college, and I was able to just fit the 15 in most backpacks. I didnt mind the extra 1-3 lbs the 15" adds. But IMO 17" models are kinda big for a student whos taking it with them everywhere, as theyre pretty bulky and heavy. My friend (tiny asian girl) had a heavy 17" gaming laptop and it was just a beast to lug around.

I wouldnt worry about aspect ratio. I'm not sure Ive come across many that arent 16:9 or something very close to it, and thats about where you want to be generally, and small differences are a big deal.

Hircus says

I just looked both the custom AND most preconfigured ones say "4+ month backlog"...damn supply chain. So I dunno if you can wait.

Student is going to take generation education courses for several months, so a powerful laptop isn't a top necessity. He can manage with the Dell Latitude laptop and the well equipped desktop he has now and then buy his main laptop., So he does have time. Thank you very much for the detailed guidance. I will snapshot your post and save it on my computer.

Are you in the computer industry? Would you consider mentoring my kid a little bit? I am not in the computer industry.

AmericanKulak says

HunterTits says

Don't they all use Macs on college?

Only Art Fags.

Usually, laptops are used by students in college of business and arts. They are quite popular among students who idea video, audio and create graphical art.

SunnyvaleCA says

nd, as you note, whatever you get you are stuck with. Good idea to get something you can live with.

You are right. I would rather spend a few hundred dollars more and get the right laptop. Buy once, cry once. Doesn't make sense to save a few hundred dollars on this daily and primary tool. Are you a computer professional in Sunnyvale? Do you anticipate a slowdown in IT industry in the next few years?

I have a 2017 and a 2020 Thinkpad (X1 Carbon is the 2020 - not sure about the '17 but I think its the same).

I replaced the 2017 because it started having battery life issues and would get super hot - almost like the fan refused to come on for cooling. The 2020 is still doing ok.

Both have the worst track pads I have ever used. The 2020 is better as the 2017 made the laptop barely usable at times (it was intermittent). I've tried all kinds of drivers without success but finally settled on uninstalling all of the lenovo software and let windows do the driving - this seems to have helped immensely.

stfu says

Both have the worst track pads I have ever used. The

I recall the Lenovo Thinkpad I had several years back had a very crappy track pad. It was very very annoying.

stfu says

Both have the worst track pads I have ever used.

USB mouse!

My Laptop I am currently using for my going to town rig, is more than 4 years old already. It's the longest I have ever had a laptop that gets daily use.
I never touch it though, it sits on my desk with the lid open another monitor plugged in, a USB mouse and a blue tooth keyboard. It looks as new as the day I bought it, not a single finger rash on any key.

I prefer a larger screen, despite the extra weight. I have a ThinkPad for work, runs great no issues, also a Lenovo gaming PC I bought last year that I use to run my side engineering buisness. Other than a sticky keyboard (kid spilt juice on it) it also runs great.

Keep in mind, whatever you pick up will be almost obsolete by the time the kid graduates.

I've haven't used a Mac since high school. Too much money for what it is. Windows PCs aren't great, but 99% of the buisness world still uses them.

I'm also a big fan of open source software. Tired of giving more money to Bill Gates than I have to.

gabbar says

Are you in the computer industry? Would you consider mentoring my kid a little bit? I am not in the computer industry.

I am, I work as a software engineer. Sorry, not really interested in mentoring right now.

stfu says

Both have the worst track pads I have ever used. The 2020 is better as the 2017 made the laptop barely usable at times (it was intermittent). I've tried all kinds of drivers without success but finally settled on uninstalling all of the lenovo software and let windows do the driving - this seems to have helped immensely.

I had a w540 for a while (I think 2014 era model), and it had that totally crap trackpad that was a thin flimsy piece of floating plastic, and had no buttons, so you had to press the corners and stuff as buttons. I don't know anyone who liked those, and always wondered why they even experimented with it. But I thought they got rid of it and went back to the previous style within a yr or 2.

I usually bring a small travel mouse with me so I dont have to use trackpads. I've never liked any of them.

I would go Thinkpad and Mint if they're used to Windows. So if it's new, should save some money by not adding an OS. Generally 14-15in is good for screen size. Should be at least a dual core, but quad would be preferable. No i5, at least i7 or newer. RAM should be at least 12GB, although if it's a thinkpad T series I believe it is replaceable. SSD for hard drive. But if you go with Windows 10, and especially if you don't purge all the spying SW, will need to up these specs for sure.

Get a used laptop and install Linux Mint on it.

No student needs one with a non-integrated graphics card unless they're using it for games. If it can access the internet and run Open Office/LibreOffice, that's all they need.

Though a monitor is nice.


gabbar says

Not into Apple ecosystem.

Excellent.

Like other said, try
1. Mac that is close to Linux
2. If college requires windooooz (I see $800-$1500 6-8 CPUs, 16-32GB RAM at Costco) buy and install Virtual machine (like http://openbox.org) and install Linux on it.
3. Like others said above buy a (not too) cheap new/old laptop and install any Linux flavor (I like Ubuntu) with dual boot to keep windows and Linux.
Linux is very flexible to be able to install quite a number open source software and experiment while leaning, its a lot of fun :)
Do not buy too cheap with less number of CPUs if he wants to do some serious stuff, very likely it will pay him back in no time.

https://www.razer.com/gaming-laptops/Razer-Blade-17/RZ09-0406AEA3-R3U1?source=patrick.net

https://www.razer.com/gaming-laptops/Razer-Book/RZ09-0357MEM2-R3U1?source=patrick.net

https://www.razer.com/education?source=patrick.net

Hircus says

xeon cpus are also comparable to H (actually I think generally a bit higher end), but its kinda a high end thing allowing you to use ECC ram. I wouldnt mind one, but not sure I'd go out of my way for one unless I really wanted a top of the line model spare no cost.

I checked and was surprised... it's actually possible to buy a xeon laptop! I can't fathom the benefits of such a setup with a low wattage and low core count, so I'm tempted to believe it's just marketing.

Xeons have the following advantages:
• Memory architecture that scales to higher throughput to support more cores (even if it's actually longer latency, so slows each individual core down)
• ECC memory (so if memory fails you get a nice message stating the cause — you're still crashing either way)
• More cores! (but generally slower clock speed)
• Cross-CPU cache coherency (so that you can run 2 CPUs each with more cores)
• More PCI lanes (so you can connect even more PCI cards to the system because 7 card's just isn't enough)
• No built-in video acceleration — get your own PCI card
• Motherboard chipsets that allow for terabytes of RAM (further increasing power consumption and motherboard size)

Every single one of those benefits is a detriment to a laptop. You would wind up with an expensive machine that runs at 300+ watts. Typical high end laptops are 50 to 100 watts full tilt.

Has anyone here tried wsl (windows subsystem for Linux) yet?

I’m an old school nerd like a lot of you here sound like so I thought the only option was to run a VM if you needed Linux in windows.

Nope! I’m now running full Ubuntu Linux as an app in a window on my full windows desktop. It has its own file system but it mounts my c drive so I can share files. I can have 2 shells open, one dos another bash and switch back and forth running scripts.

It is by far and away the best setup for programming work I have had. I get the superior windows desktop and app ecosystem while being able to drop in to Linux to run nerd programs.

You don't need Windows anymore if want MS experience.
There's a Linux Visual Studio for writing CORE apps, and it has a SQL server as well.

I installed it on one of my retired laptops a few years ago. I upgraded a pretty complex application from .Net to .Core and got it to compile and run.
Even the SQL implementation was painless. I then set it aside and haven't touched it since. But it worked!

Blue says

Do not buy too cheap with less number of CPUs if he wants to do some serious stuff, very likely it will pay him back in no time.

I understand. I have no intention of going cheap. I am budgeted to spend upto $1500 to $2000. I just want him to have an excellent laptop that will get him through 4 years of undergraduate school. However, I do not want to overbuy and over complicate it. I just want something that will HIM and his needs.

I will buy him an another one after he gets his degree.

gabbar says

I understand. I have no intention of going cheap. I am budgeted to spend upto $1500 to $2000. I just want him to have an excellent laptop that will get him through 4 years of undergraduate school. However, I do not want to overbuy and over complicate it. I just want something that will HIM and his needs.

I'd say, get him a basic used laptop, don't spend over $700.

If he wants to play Call of Duty 3000:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysKhbaLyIFw&source=patrick.net

No reason a healthy 18-21 year old can't work a few hours a week for beer & GPU money while going to school full time. Shit, he'll be partying like crazy until 4AM many nights whether or not he works 10-15 hours a week somewhere. Work is good for them.

See also half the Millennials as to how "Dont work, just study" worked out, they're 30 and still expecting parents to set up doc appointments and/or laundry service. I've seen this IRL, huge difference between my 2010 "Only here for resume padding, so I'll call in 'sick' again" milly interns vs. my 2019 "Can I get more hours? Money is Good" Zoomer interns.

Blue says

Like other said, try
1. Mac that is close to Linux
2. If college requires windooooz (I see $800-$1500 6-8 CPUs, 16-32GB RAM at Costco) buy and install Virtual machine (like http://openbox.org) and install Linux on it.
3. Like others said above buy a (not too) cheap new/old laptop and install any Linux flavor (I like Ubuntu) with dual boot to keep windows and Linux.
Linux is very flexible to be able to install quite a number open source software and experiment while leaning, its a lot of fun :)
Do not buy too cheap with less number of CPUs if he wants to do some serious stuff, very likely it will pay him back in no time.

I talked to somebody Wednesday - if I'm correct, MAC has moved to ARM as it's main processor and will soon drop x86 support entirely.

As a result of this, running a VM of Windows on a MAC or a VM of MAC under Windows (or Linux) may not be practical. Simulating an entire processor in software is not efficient and people that have used Qemu know this. It's in THEORY possible, but it's painful. It's SOOOOO SLOW.

Windows supports ARM, so does Linux, but I'm not certain about the quality of the distributions. I run a raspberry pi which is ARM - it's a capable computer, HOWEVER, it is nothing compared to my 7 year old i7 8 core 32 GB machine. It's like working on a computer from 2000. It works, but it's a little painful.

pudil says

Has anyone here tried wsl (windows subsystem for Linux) yet?

I'm about to test it out at work because Mac no longer uses intel chips but instead the M1 - which won't let us compile many bioinformatics packages in docker anymore.

richwicks says

It's like working on a computer from 2000. It works, but it's a little painful.

Yes, ideally its better to have either 1. Mac (costco: $1,449.99 MacBook Pro 13.3",M1 Chip 8-core CPU, 8-core GPU, 8GB, 512GB SSD) or 2. buy Windows box that supports dual boot and install Linux to be able to run Linux natively (I like this option).
The next alternative is get Linux laptop like Dell XPS 13 Laptop.

pudil says

Has anyone here tried wsl (windows subsystem for Linux) yet?

I know somebody that tried to use it years ago.

It sucks. Files written would be lost, it was a disaster. I don't know how it is now.

I use Linux as my base operating system. Samba is trivial to setup now though and if you want help with this - ask Patrick to give you my email address. Basically, it just means modifying your /etc/samba/smb.conf and adding the above to your smb.conf at the end of the file:

[SHARE_NAME]
    comment = SOME_SHARE_NAME-THIS_ISN'T_TOO_USEFUL
    path = /home/UNIX_USERNAME
    read only = no
    browsable = yes

Anything in caps, you need to replace. You will have to lookup smbpasswd to set a password for it.

If I run Windows now I do it as a VM and I setup the OS and use a Samba drive for storage on my main system. Setting up MacOS under this system isn't exactly trivial, although I've done it once, I can't seem to repeat it. If I can successfully setup a MacOS system again, I will document it. I just end up with a fucking blank screen. You need an INTEL processor for this, not AMD.

Does anyone have any thoughts about how Dell Precision vs Lenovo Thinkpad laptops compare?

Any comments about this laptop for freshman in college of engineering?