patrick.net

GreaterNYCDude says

In a modern captalist economy, it makes more sense to me to tax consumption rather than income.

Yes, but good economics makes bad politics. Taxing income gives power to lawmakers through favored exemptions.

HeadSet says

Taxing income gives power to lawmakers through favored exemptions.

And that, in my view, it the root cause of many of our issues in this country. Political inaction in deference to deep pocketed special interests that want to keep the status quo.

GreaterNYCDude says

Until the 16th ammendment was passed in the early 1900's, we got by without fedetal income taxes.

You mean we got buy without a central bank.

GreaterNYCDude says

we were not yet the superpower we became, huge millitary and all,

Yet we defeated the largest empire in the world when we founded our country, and now, we can't compete with any major military power.

GreaterNYCDude says

have a federal tax on goods and services rendered.

It's called sales tax.

GreaterNYCDude says

tax it at a nominal rate to raise sufficent revenue to keep the government running.

The exorbitant taxes collected now can't even keep the government running. That's why we have a central bank that's been printing like crazy since 1913.

If you don't understand the purpose of a central bank, you'll get lost in the weeds of Keynesian bullshit and economic jargon purposely designed to keep you from understanding the purpose of a central bank. You want a real solution, Griffin outlined an extensive one. But more importantly this conversation cannot be useful without understanding that the biggest tax on us, BY FAR, is inflation. Everything else is peanuts in comparison.

It’s not the central bank making money.
It’s congress allowing the US Treasury to sell trillions of dollars of IOUs called bonds.

They are sold in auctions from time to time.

Lately the Federal Reserve has been buying a lot of them but they are planning on selling them off.

The huge problem for Americans is much of the debt (bonds) is owned by foreigners, so your tax dollars, your children’s tax dollars will be paid to foreigners as interest on the gigantic debt.

It’s depressing to think about it, and also to realize nobody gives a shit about it.

I've said for decades that no one would care about government corruption or regulation if government spending was less than 1% of GDP. It's a rule that the founding fathers should have codified in the constitution.

I also agree with the sentiment that the bill of rights were a mistake. They provide wiggle room for authoritarian lawyers to 'interpret' a very straight forward document - "if it ain't in here, then it's up to the states".

Bring back the articles of confederation.

Greater NYC. Dude asks why we don’t just tax goods and services and then pass a balance the budget amendment . To begin with goods and services is a consumption tax ( nearly impossible for the feds to est taxes) many states already have a consumption tax but have a lower sales tax ( a few states don’t even have a sales tax) . A Fed consumption tax wouldn’t even bring in enough revenue vs income tax and it could lead to higher unemployment by h/o even business owners doing the work themselves ,to prevent paying what would be an astronomical tax . Items we don’t tax is food /health services and devices ,Alimony,child support /food stamps / gvt welfare ,charities , so a personal consumption tax is subject to abuse as well as not capable of raising enough money . You mentioned there was no personal income tax before 1916 ,that is also incorrect the revenue act of 1861 and revised in 1862 to finance the Civil War “The Revenue Act’s language was broadly written to define income as gain “derived from any kind of property, or from any professional trade, employment, or vocation carried on in the United States or elsewhere or from any source whatever “ history .com income below 600 tax not taxable and there was an tax for higher incomes .Lincoln also was the first prez do end payments redeemable in silver or gold when the “ greenbacks” became legal currency .The revenue act lasted till 1872 when Gen Grant took office and was declared unconstitutional by Supreme Court in 1895 .Congress tried to reenact them but failed until 1909 when the 16th amendment was passed .The civil war for those that may not be aware of was about Taxes ,slavery wasn’t the main issue at the time but it would eviolve to it later .

Think the Afghan war is over ? Not in terms of money anyhow .The Civil War costs continued for 148 + years “ AP identified the disability and I’m not sure how that would go over in this forum survivor benefits during an analysis of millions of federal payment records obtained under the Freedom of Information Act “ Ap also found that since 1970 270 Billion has been spent on benefits to vets ,families and children iin eligible https://www.businessinsider.com/the-costs-of-us-wars-have-lingered-for-more-than-100-years-2013-3 .This does not count our most expensive wars Iraqi and Afghan which will linger on to the new century .Someone brought up taxing multi-family priperties and I assume rental properties at a higher rate , juuging by the lack of comments one would think it went over like a lead stone .Personally I liked but not sold on Henry Gerorge’s idea of taxing land values by the state instead of ( todays use) giving tax benefits for developing undeveloped land which leads to sprawling land development and inner city decay .Redeveloping the old decaying / empty buildings in a lot cases would fix our infrastructure,and our empty lands would be much better suited environment ,farm land ,,etc .Tax breaks for redevelopment would fix our inner cities and perhaps lower crime rates as the income to the city /state would have benefits.Inflasturture would be fixed as a result bringing building codes up to date and a better quality of life for the community at large . .Suburban sprawl is not using /managing our limited resources .What I don’t like is Ca using hidden taxes ie lumber tax ,paint can tax carpet/pad tax even the paper/plastic tax that no one seems to know where it goes .New and creative ways of taxing us is one reason proving the lawmakers only waste our $ instead doing what the state needs grid / damns / Central Valley revitalization / road repairs the whole enchilada…..but what am I thinking of they can tax us more for the items later .

clambo says

It’s not the central bank making money.
It’s congress allowing the US Treasury to sell trillions of dollars of IOUs called bonds.

Could Congress do this without a central bank? They could try, but the amount of taxes they would need to raise would be so high, they'd be signing their own death warrants. You see how good bankers are at shifting blame to anyone but them...

clambo says

It’s not the central bank making money.
It’s congress allowing the US Treasury to sell trillions of dollars of IOUs called bonds.

First: what NuttBoxer said is totally correct

Yes, this is only possible with the CENTRAL BANK.

That's the root problem.

Look, if you give me the ability to print "the currency" and give me a monopoly on it, and you never audit me, how long before you think it will be before I own most of the country?

The central bank, the federal reserve, doesn't have to work in ANY sense. They don't have to do labor and they don't have to even function properly. What a fucking "job" that is.

Getting people to understand HOW the corruption works is a very hard problem. You have a bunch of assholes running a system where there is no oversight that depends entirely on trust. They can print up 100 billion dollars and purchase google stock, twitter stock, they can fund CNN, they can fund wars - you have no idea how they do this, it's all private information. The Federal Reserve is our TRUE leadership. They have infinite power because they have infinite money.

clambo says

Lately the Federal Reserve has been buying a lot of them but they are planning on selling them off.

The Federal Reserve gives credit to the government, then makes money to purchase the bonds they created. Don't you see the insanity and corruption of this?

Abolish income taxes at the federal level and substitute import duties.

Booger says

Abolish income taxes at the federal level and substitute import duties.

Haha - you probably already know, that was our original system. I approve of it.

And state income and sales tax should be replaced with a land value tax.

Also, get the Feds out of the mortgage business.

New Hampshire has a clever solution to no state income tax.

Instead of an income tax, all liquor (spirit alcohol) is sold in state owned liquor stores.

Liquor/ spirits profits supply significant income for New Hampshire, like the old days.

They get customers from Massachusetts and tourists driving to and from Maine, a huge store is right off 95 in Portsmouth.

clambo says

New Hampshire has a clever solution to no state income tax.

Instead of an income tax, all liquor (spirit alcohol) is sold in state owned liquor stores.

Liquor/ spirits profits supply significant income for New Hampshire, like the old days.

They get customers from Massachusetts and tourists driving to and from Maine, a huge store is right off 95 in Portsmouth.

Yep. Always busy when we drive past it on the way to Maine. Portsmouth is a pretty little town btw. Many towns around this area are worth visiting, summers are pretty

clambo says

Instead of an income tax, all liquor (spirit alcohol) is sold in state owned liquor stores.

Or just build dozens of casinos. Vice taxes generally never bring in the estimated amount they tell you. Casinos, booze, smokes, weed, etc.

In legal states like IL, it's cheaper for me to get weed from an individual by a long shot. Growing weed is like brewing beer now. People are growing (some legal, medical, some not) some insanely good shit and selling it for 30/60. When I was in HS and College is was 60/120. Technically illegal to buy it that way, but the market has been saturated with the legal stuff and it's expensive because of taxes.

I'm a fan of just a flat tax. Everyone has skin in the game then besides kids below the working age. Get rid of all exemptions and loopholes. 10% on income, goods, etc. It would hurt the poor initially, but I think it would work out in the long run. You make $1M you pay $100k. You make $100k, you pay $10k. When half of Americans, including the rich pay no federal taxes, that's fucked up in my world.

When I look at someone knowing I paid $40k in taxes and they paid zero, it creates anger. A flat tax at least is like, cool, you made X and paid Y to help us all out. It will never happen though. The rich would block in immediately and the poor would cry like babies. And expenses shouldn't be written off. This would hurt me. But just tax everything at 10%. Might be a bad take, but it would simplify the flying fuck out of my February preparing my taxes.

WookieMan says

clambo says

Instead of an income tax, all liquor (spirit alcohol) is sold in state owned liquor stores.

Or just build dozens of casinos. Vice taxes generally never bring in the estimated amount they tell you. Casinos, booze, smokes, weed, etc.

In legal states like IL, it's cheaper for me to get weed from an individual by a long shot. Growing weed is like brewing beer now. People are growing (some legal, medical, some not) some insanely good shit and selling it for 30/60. When I was in HS and College is was 60/120. Technically illegal to buy it that way, but the market has been saturated with the legal stuff and it's expensive because of taxes.

I'm a fan of just a flat tax. Everyone has skin in the game then besides kids below the working age. Get rid of all exemptions and loopholes. 10% on income, goods, etc. It would hurt the poor initially, but I think it w...

The alternative is to insist that people under 65 (or aren't other special categories like disabled vets but NOT unwed mothers) who didn't pay NET taxes have to pay $300 a year to vote.

AmericanKulak says

WookieMan says

clambo says

Instead of an income tax, all liquor (spirit alcohol) is sold in state owned liquor stores.

Or just build dozens of casinos. Vice taxes generally never bring in the estimated amount they tell you. Casinos, booze, smokes, weed, etc.

In legal states like IL, it's cheaper for me to get weed from an individual by a long shot. Growing weed is like brewing beer now. People are growing (some legal, medical, some not) some insanely good shit and selling it for 30/60. When I was in HS and College is was 60/120. Technically illegal to buy it that way, but the market has been saturated with the legal stuff and it's expensive because of taxes.

I'm a fan of just a flat tax. Everyone has skin in the game then besides kids below the working age. Get rid of all exemptions...

Like that suggestion, pay to vote sounds good.

I think losers should not vote.
Voting in person and the database shows who's paying taxes and who's on food stamps, HUD sec 8, etc.
No vote for the food stamp people, Sec 8, and people who pay no income tax.

mell says

New Hampshire has a clever solution to no state income tax.

Instead of an income tax, all liquor (spirit alcohol) is sold in state owned liquor stores.

Virginia has all liquor sold only in state owned stores, by we still have an income tax.

clambo says

I think losers should not vote.
Voting in person and the database shows who's paying taxes and who's on food stamps, HUD sec 8, etc.
No vote for the food stamp people, Sec 8, and people who pay no income tax.

I think I've mentioned this before. It should be a weighted vote based on what you payed in for federal taxes (state too). If you paid $0 you just get your 1 vote. This hits the uber wealthy as well and the poor that get handouts. If you paid $1,000 in income taxes you vote is worth the digits in what is paid. $1,000 would be worth 4 votes. $10,000 paid would be worth 5 votes. $100,000 is 6 votes.

The middle class would win bigly doing this. They're the ones that consume the most and pay in the most and don't take. They should have the louder voice. If you don't have skin in the game or are playing the tax code excuse if you're rich paying nothing, well fuck off. You vote doesn't matter as much. Doesn't mean you can't be poor or one of the rich paying zero taxes, you just have less decision in how we make laws that governs the majority.

The only legitimate tax is tax on imports. Imports by definition takes job away from domestic workers who produce comparable goods/services. To the extent that a military is necessary for the safe transit of goods from overseas and for the protection of capital invested abroad, those with business interest in those foreign operations can pay for it. Otherwise, all taxation and foreign adventure comes down to taxing domestic population to subsidize businesses that use foreign labor and foreign resources to replace domestic labor and domestic production. For those enamored by big maps and empire, keep in mind that the Roman conquest of Egypt (thereby getting cheap grain and cheap labor from Egypt, which became the Emperor's personal posession due to the slavish population in Egypt) only served to bankrupt middle-class Roman farmers, including veterans, due to cheap imported food displaced Roman farm outputs. Somehow the cost of maintaining the Roman army, Roman fleet and Roman roads was not reflected in the price of imported food and goods; thereby the public (mostly middle class farmers) were taxed to support the army the fleet and the roads, while the big businesses and banks reaped the benefit of having the army, the navy and the roads, all of which drove Roman middle class (including the veterans) into bankruptcy.

That's why most of the shenanigans are done under the name of "Foreign Policy" / "Diplomacy." e.g. WEF, Trilateral Commission, etc.. There shouldn't be a foreign policy besides being friend to all while being in alliance to none, and taxing all imports (due to domestic socioeconomic effect of imports upsetting existing delicate balances between suppliers and consumers of goods and services). Free trade with slavish countries is literally importation of slavery.

Many adults are functional retards when it comes to what they pay in taxes. That’s why their focus is on refund/payment in March every year rather than “oh shit! Between Federal tax and state tax I paid $15k last year”

FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

Many adults are functional regards

Did you mean "functional retards?

HeadSet says

FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

Many adults are functional regards

Did you mean "functional retards?

Doh!

One advantage of preparing your taxes with software is you learn the tax code as you go along.

Few people know that taxes are rising automatically in 2025; the "Bush tax cuts" expire then. The estate tax exclusion is going down too.

I feel the same way towards liberals as towards the punk who tries to mug me for my wallet.

I paid 100K in income taxes this year. For a bunch of wars and social programs I never agreed to. I’m not rich. It’s criminal.

pudil says

I paid 100K in income taxes this year. For a bunch of wars and social programs I never agreed to. I’m not rich. It’s criminal.

Totally agree

clambo says

One advantage of preparing your taxes with software is you learn the tax code as you go along.

+1,000. Even if you send it to an accountant later, doing your own give a handle on finances. Talking personal, not corporate.

Sorry to post more stuff, but anyway.
If you have ever done the questionnaire for an accountant, you will maybe notice that the tax software does the same thing and the difference is it's preparing your return as you answer.
The software is great today; I have accounts at Vanguard, T.Rowe Price, Fidelity, and the software connects to their servers and downloads all of the data of the various 1099s which were sent to me, and puts it into the various boxes on the tax form for me.
The standard deduction for a single today is $12,000 so I don't save receipts from medical or dental shit; no way do I spend that much in a year not covered by insurance.

My father had an expensive accountant in Manhattan UHY. I saw that they were finding ways to charge my father money to do stuff he didn't need to do, and were not deducting some expenses he had, which I corrected.
He was being charged every few months and they sent him a voucher to pay quarterly taxes; I told them he can just get his annuity to deduct some money and he doesn't have to pay quarterly.
He had investments at Morgan Stanley in Boca Raton, FL. They charge you a "wrap fee" of 1% of your total. He wasn't aware of what he was paying and the accountant wasn't aware that these fees are actually deductible.
If you have a million bucks invested, that fee is $10,000 which is partially deductible.

The following year I prepared my father's taxes myself and printed the forms; he was impressed that you don't need an accountant to do this.

mell says

pudil says

I paid 100K in income taxes this year. For a bunch of wars and social programs I never agreed to. I’m not rich. It’s criminal.

Totally agree

Disagree completely. That's $800k+ of W-2 income minimum. Low tax long term capital gains or stock sales that's $1.5M easy.

I fucking hate taxes, but paying $100k in federal and crying poor is ridiculous. Or you're not doing your taxes right. I know my numbers. $100k is $800k of W-2 income roughly.

Where I agree is the use of said tax money. We don't need wars. The lefty in me kind of agrees with "some" social programs. There's a lot out there people don't know about. Our society would devolve without them. If you're not rich with that income you're doing something 1,000% completely wrong. Not trying to be a dick. 50% of people are paying nothing. I do and you do pudil. Most others here do as well.

My point is you are very rich if you're paying $100k in taxes federally. Or you're doing your taxes wrong.

WookieMan says

Disagree completely. That's $800k+ of W-2 income minimum. Low tax long term capital gains or stock sales that's $1.5M easy.

I fucking hate taxes, but paying $100k in federal and crying poor is ridiculous. Or you're not doing your taxes right. I know my numbers. $100k is $800k of W-2 income roughly.

Where I agree is the use of said tax money. We don't need wars. The lefty in me kind of agrees with "some" social programs. There's a lot out there people don't know about. Our society would devolve without them. If you're not rich with that income you're doing something 1,000% completely wrong. Not trying to be a dick. 50% of people are paying nothing. I do and you do pudil. Most others here do as well.

My point is you are very rich if you're paying $100k in taxes federally. Or you're doing your taxes wrong.

It's probably state and federal taxes which go to the same corrupt bs. You are close to paying 100k in taxes (federal + state) in CA on 250K yearly salary. Sure other states have less income tax, but doesn't make you rich. It's upper middle class, maybe just entry level upper class. Not wealthy by any means, you will need to keep working, but def comfortable living. Also depends on if you have a family to feed or not. It's still theft.

mell says

It's probably state and federal taxes which go to the same corrupt bs. You are close to paying 100k in taxes (federal + state) in CA on 250K yearly salary. Sure other states have less income tax, but doesn't make you rich. It's upper middle class, maybe just entry level upper class. Not wealthy by any means, you will need to keep working, but def comfortable living. Also depends on if you have a family to feed or not. It's still theft.

Doing your taxes wrong if you're paying $100k on $250k of income. Like legit retard level. Just because the cap is 13% state income in CA doesn't mean that's the gross state income tax. It's progressive. $250k federal is around $25k in federal taxes, give or take if we're talking standard income. Again, it sucks.

As much as we all hate taxes, you're walking with $500-700K after tax money if you're paying $100k in taxes. That's the definition of rich. Not upper middle class. That's boats, $100k cars, large houses, etc.

Also that amount has to include property taxes or something. $100k federal income taxes is $8.3k/month. Including state and federal you marginal income tax is 20-25% outside of million dollar a year earners. Can't cry poor making that much.

I guess I'm calling bull shit or poor accounting and tax planning. The small slice of lefty in me says just fucking pay it. You're not in a bad spot. Control the money is all I'll say. Be a part of the government. Control what you're giving away. This is the biggest problem with Libertarians and Conservatives. They're passive as fuck and just bitch and whine and don't do anything about it. They get stomped by soy boys.

I could not find any graph of income tax rates by dollar of income for CA and Fed combined, but did find this:

https://twitter.com/DLeonhardt/status/1181004566088814594?ref_src=patrick.net

So say that our man @pudil is in the 90th percentile. Then if he paid $100K in taxes, at 30% that implies an income of $333K.

That's not marginal, that's total taxes paid, according to the video above. Play it to the end.

Ah, found a decent federal graph of brackets:



So yes, he could get hit with 30% tax on his whole income, even just from federal income tax. Then there's CA.

I calculated my actual tax rate at a bit over 10%.
Most of my income is long term capital gains and qualified dividends.
I don't pay California state income tax, I left.
Income from a job would be taxed at a higher rate.
Edit: the curve in a graph as above would be flatter if it's income from qualified dividends and long term capital gains.