patrick.net

The Chinese are working on it.

The only thing the Chinese are coming up with is phase two.

Gab has started some kind of independent payment platform. But we already have one, the only honest monetary system, gold and silver. And you don't have to wait for anyone to start using it.

Be the change that you want.

Barter and underground economies based on gold backed rubles, like the Russians used to do with dollars and parallel economies during the hard core Kommie times..

Alternative to PayPal/Venmo:

https://alignpay.com/

Dan Boningo

Looks dangerously woke though.

NuttBoxer says

But we already have one, the only honest monetary system, gold and silver. And you don't have to wait for anyone to start using it.

What we need to solve is the ability for people to easily send gold and silver to each other without waiting for days and paying hefty postage fees.

It can be based on promises as long as those promises remain reliably convertible to physical coins. Promises move quickly over the internet.

As for convertibility, a network of gold and silver ATM machines which take in and give out coins might do it, except that the government would stomp on it as competition with the Fed.

While it is possible to imagine a world where an airline purchases a Boeing 737 with gold, the practicality of arranging security for the transaction would be ruinous for the buyer and seller, but the transport companies would make out quite well.

@Misc The transaction could be done as promises to deliver gold or silver. Those promises can then be re-spent.

This is how the Wisselbank in Amsterdam worked for centuries. The key is the reliable convertibility on demand. If you can be certain you can get the physical gold, then you don't always need to get the physical gold.

In fact, Wisselbank notes usually traded above the value of the physical gold, because the bank provided storage and had a perfect record of delivery on demand. Until one day they didn't, but hey, still better than the toilet paper we get from the Fed.

If you end up trusting the bank, it doesn't matter whether it is gold or fiat. The end results are the same. We've tried the gold standard numerous times in the US and it always ended badly.

Misc says

The end results are the same. We've tried the gold standard numerous times in the US and it always ended badly.

@Misc The key is that you don't need to ship it if you have some kind of reliable network with input and output terminals. Doesn't need to be a bank exactly.

Consider the Hawala system used for centuries in the Middle East and India. There are networks of families. You give a member in one country some gold, he calls a cousin in another country, and that guy delivers gold on the other end, less his commission. No shipping involved, at least not for the customer. The family may need to rebalance gold stocks now and then.

There are no long-term deposits in this system so can lose only the amount of gold you have "in transit" at the moment.

Patrick says

Consider the Hawala system used for centuries in the Middle East and India.

I do not think its safe these days particularly for large amounts. Guy could tip off before or after the delivery to make you robbery target at best.

Why gold????

Why not some crypto???

Gold has historically been used because there really isn't a use for it outside of Jewlery. That is what makes a good currency something that is mostly useless. You don't want something that has a practical use as a currency. Hence, our system of fiat currencies is the best monetary system ever created. When we need more currency we can just print it at pretty much zero cost. When the debt load of Americans got out of hand just before the Great Depression, we couldn't just make more gold to get out of the predicament. Our hands were tied. Sure, we devalued the dollar... doubling the amount of dollars per ounce, but given the huge credit bubble, it needed to go much higher than that.

The system is broken because when we add this new printed money into the system, currently it mostly goes to the rich and/or connected. It doesn't go to where it is needed. This has led to the greatest divergence in wealth from those at the top of the pyramid to those at the bottom than at any time in America's history. There is currently so much bad debt outstanding it is mind boggling. We need to find a way to fairly get this printed money to those that need it to start paying down their debt.

Misc says

Why gold

Because it can't be printed, because it's universally accepted, and because it is quite permanent.

Misc says

Why not some crypto

Because neither you nor I can be entirely sure that there isn't a way to crack it, and because the current forms waste a lot of energy doing hashes over and over.

Gold does have a lot of practical uses, btw. It's extremely malleable, the best conductor, and never tarnishes.

Misc says

When the debt load of Americans got out of hand just before the Great Depression, we couldn't just make more gold to get out of the predicament. Our hands were tied.

Depressions are not a monetary phenomenon, but a result of land speculation. The solution is Henry George's single tax on land values.

The tendency of speculators to increase the price of land faster than wealth can be produced to pay has the result of lowering the amount of wealth left over for labor to claim in wages, and finally leads to the collapse of enterprises at the margin, with a ripple effect that becomes a serious business depression entailing widespread unemployment, foreclosures, etc.

Misc says

when we add this new printed money into the system, currently it mostly goes to the rich and/or connected

I agree with you there. New money inflates of the value of assets like stocks, which are mostly owned by the rich.

But fiat money is in itself always a large tax on those without other assets. it should be replaced entirely with... silver! Ha, you thought I was going to say gold, right? I say it should be silver because most transactions are too small to make gold practical. You'd need a microscope. Money should be silver, and gold should be valued in terms of silver alone. But gold (as valued in silver) could be used for more convenient large transactions.

The silver supply also inflates faster than the gold supply, and I admit a small amount of inflation is good to keep the economy going, so people don't always just sit on cash.

The world for silver in various languages like French and Irish literally means "money".

Misc says

If you end up trusting the bank, it doesn't matter whether it is gold or fiat. The end results are the same. We've tried the gold standard numerous times in the US and it always ended badly.

No, it never ended badly.

We've tried a central bank 3 times, and that's always ended badly.

The American revolution wasn't over a 3% tea tax. It was over the Bank of England.

What the central banks do, ALWAYS, is promise to take in gold, give you a receipt for your gold, and then print MORE receipts than they have gold. They do this every time. What used to happen when there wasn't a central bank, is that bankers who did this went to jail, or killed themselves, left town in a hurry, or were murdered. Now that we have a central bank, they just pay to make the laws, and they have INFINITE money, because they create it at will.

What will happen, eventually, is hyperinflation.

Imagine all the things that are unsustainable without fiat...good and bad. Endless wars, welfare, open borders etc.

GNL says

Imagine all the things that are unsustainable without fiat...good and bad. Endless wars, welfare, open borders etc.

List something that is good with endless fiat. You haven't yet.

There's nothing good about fiat. It's main purpose is to give the government a total monopoly on power.

Any opines about the US CBDC that's going live next July? I think it's Orwellian.

I really like this idea of gold/silver backed crypto - https://kinesis.money/

Works as a Mastercard...

Still has counterparty risk though, you have to trust that its actually backed and that nobody is going to skip town

richwicks says

GNL says

Imagine all the things that are unsustainable without fiat...good and bad. Endless wars, welfare, open borders etc.

List something that is good with endless fiat. You haven't yet.

There's nothing good about fiat. It's main purpose is to give the government a total monopoly on power.

I think it could be backed by labor if done differently.

This...
1. Money comes into existence through lending.
2. Interest rates set by the free market.
3. Interest is paid to the government in lieu of taxes.
4. No other taxes.
5. No too big to fail and no bailouts.
6. State and federal required balanced budgets.

just_passing_through says

Any opines about the US CBDC that's going live next July? I think it's Orwellian.

See exec order: 140672

That's supposedly to investigate it. However by July of next year the Fed will already have all of the infrastructure in place for Fed Coin. And activated. Initially it will be only bank to bank. It's called "FedNow". Don't believe the BS articles stating it's not CBDC, it is. Just a flip of the switch to roll it out to the public.

Pointing at the GIANT elephant in this room.

cisTits says

GNL says

1. Money comes into existence through lending.

No. CREDIT comes into existence through lending. Money and Credit are completely different things.

When a lender creates credit for a loan, it still has to cough up actual money, usually.

And that it can only get from a) reserves or b) borrowing it from another lender. If that lender is the Fed, then The Fed creates the money on the spot to do so.

But banks/lenders DO NOT create money.

The belief otherwise is right up on the the top most 100% bullshit 'facts' that damage what people think 'how things work'. Right up there with 'the US is a democracy'.

I'm listening to you but, as I see it, no borrowing = no $$. Regardless of the actual process. No?

Patrick says

Looks dangerously woke though.

It's not.

AlignPay is a new payment processing solution that’s built for freedom and driven by the time-tested American conviction that everyone – no matter their race, religion, gender, or ideology – has the right to pursue happiness and live the American dream.

While some in society seek to undermine these foundational American values by canceling those who dare to disagree with them, we believe in American ingenuity, opportunity, and that our best days are still to come.

That’s why we created AlignPay. Our mission is to support freedom with tools designed to empower economic prosperity, not stifle it.

https://alignpay.com/mission.html

Patrick says

What we need to solve is the ability for people to easily send gold and silver to each other without waiting for days and paying hefty postage fees.

An honest bank could easily provide this. As history has shown, if they prove reliable at appraising coins, and always having full account balance on hand, most people would never convert the paper slips, or digital balance into physical.

Misc says

While it is possible to imagine a world where an airline purchases a Boeing 737 with gold, the practicality of arranging security for the transaction would be ruinous for the buyer and seller, but the transport companies would make out quite well.

What about purchase of a ship? Or building a factory? Buying land? All of those have been done in real money for centuries without issue.

Misc says

If you end up trusting the bank, it doesn't matter whether it is gold or fiat. The end results are the same. We've tried the gold standard numerous times in the US and it always ended badly.

You really need to learn more about the pre-central banking system to understand why the difference in fiat and real money means everything. In the simplest terms, it's honesty vs corruption.

We've tried the fiat in the US, and it's always gone badly. First time was during the revolution, and we only recovered by trading tobacco until real money returned. It left such a bad taste, they couldn't even breathe the words "central bank" for nearly 50 years. The single greatest time of prosperity in this nation's history was at the beginning of the 19th century, under a real money system. We have never rivaled that success since.

Under fiat/central banks we have experienced the worst inflation and contraction in our nation's history. Present day is a GREAT example.

Blue says

I do not think its safe these days particularly for large amounts. Guy could tip off before or after the delivery to make you robbery target at best.

Most transactions would be in silver. Gold is too valuable. this has always been the case historically. Under an honest system, prices would quickly return to nearly what they've always been. Real inflation in an honest system moves at a snail's pace. Monopolies would cease to exist, large corporations would disappear, de-centralization would return with a vengeance.

Most of the problems you guys see are because you try to force real money into a dishonest system. In reality, these two cannot co-exist.

Misc says

Why not some crypto???

You want to create a system based on hyperbolic valuations? All real wealth comes from the earth.

I can't begin to respond to the rest. The central bankers main goal is to lie, and they are very good at lying. Your views are proof. Please balance them so you can understand a system that does not seek your enslavement.

GNL says

1. Money comes into existence through lending.

With point one you have already enslaved us. Even the Bible states that if you borrow money, the lender becomes your master. Wealth should be earned, not printed from nothing.

cisTits says

But banks/lenders DO NOT create money.

Actually not true in the current system. Banks used to be allowed to lend out something like $100 for every dollar they actually have. A few years ago they basically lowered the reserve to zero. Oh yeah, and even when there was a reserve, that hundred they loaned out was considered an asset, so now they could loan $100 for every one of those dollars. The system is leveraged to the gills!

NuttBoxer says

An honest bank could easily provide this. As history has shown, if they prove reliable at appraising coins, and always having full account balance on hand

People would have to pay for the bank to store the coins though.

The alternative is to get "free" banking by letting the bank lend out the coins for interest, and risk not getting paid back.

AmericanKulak says

Patrick says

Looks dangerously woke though.

It's not.

Align is a company that provides reviews on business's based on their love for America, and lack of wokeness. I assume Alignpay is part of that same company?

Patrick says

People would have to pay for the bank to store the coins though.

I believe the bank of Venice(?) never made loans, and their profits came from notary, and other services they offered.

AmericanKulak says

Patrick says

Looks dangerously woke though.

It's not.

I'm saying that the black woman is pretty much the universal virtue-signal of wokeness. Maybe this place just has tone-deaf advertising.

We should just start our own country and call it "patrick.net-stan". We could buy an island or some offshore oil rigs...we will be fine. We should probably grow some crops in greenhouses on them. Then we will issue our own currency....which will be great!

1337irr says

We should just start our own country and call it "patrick.net-stan". We could buy an island or some offshore oil rigs...we will be fine. We should probably grow some crops in greenhouses on them. Then we will issue our own currency....which will be great!

... and immediately apply for foreign aid from the US.

Patrick says

The transaction could be done as promises to deliver gold or silver. Those promises can then be re-spent.

I believe that was the premise of the US "Silver Certificates" which stood in place of all the silver coins sitting in bags in vaults. Gold coins circulated until Roosevelt collected all of them for safe keeping in Fort Knox.


5 silver dollars would have $100 to $150 silver value, depending on who you sold it to.

GNL says

Money comes into existence through lending.

Fiat money. Real money comes into existence through labor.

It takes a lot of labor to mine and refine metals that become money. It takes a lot of labor to create materials to build things people want. The value of a gold coin, or a colored shell, is the labor it took to find it and make it presentable to the market.

Money has intrinsic value. Colored shells can make jewelry and gold can be used for high tech circuits. Fiat and crypto currency have no intrinsic value. I still hold that real money has value based on labor where as fiat money is based on the evil promises of a corrupt government.

Onvacation says

5 silver dollars would have $100 to $150 silver value, depending on who you sold it to.

There's .71 ounces of silver in every $1.00 of silver coins, so it works out to be about 3.5 ounces and that's around $70 bucks - maybe $85 as of today.

cisTits says

And what happens when mining is fully roboticized?

Still takes energy to run the equipment.

Really, money is energy, ultimately. If energy was free and unlimited, this entire would would be packed with people, and we would destroy nature. With unlimited energy, you can build anything, and anywhere.