patrick.net

@DD214

Is any physicist’s account of how the world came to be not a word salad? If not, please provide one such account and explain why it is not a word salad in contrast to “Thousands of years ago, there was a void. Then, God, who has always existed, called the world into being where there once was only that void.”

Undoctored says

However this world and its inhabitants came to be, the complexity, variety, and interdependence of life is too great to be explained by descent with purposeless modification over generations and generations from a common primitive ancestor.

No, this is the anthropic principle. You must know what that is, so I'm not going to explain it.

Interdependence of life is inevitable. And it's not purposeless modification, organisms adapt to their environment to give them advantage within that environment. The reason I have white pale skin is I'm descended from Poles and Irish ancestors. They didn't get much sun, so to make up for the lack of vitamin D, my skin is adapted to produce as much as possible, when it can. I have an evolutionary advantage over dark skinned people in the north - not much of one now that we know what vitamins are though..

Evolution is a fact. Origin of life? We may never know. It may have been a very unlikely set of circumstances to create it. This might be the only planet in the entire universe with life on it. I don't just hope we don't fuck it up.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." - John 1:1-5

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." - John 1:10-14

The above establishes Christ as God, the Creator, the Word that was manifested in the 'flesh,' was rejected by the world even though He created the world and to those that 'believe on his name,' he gives them the 'power to become sons of God.'

What does atheism offer?

RayAmerica says

The above establishes Christ as God, the Creator, the Word that was manifested in the 'flesh,' was rejected by the world even though He created the world and to those that 'believe on his name,' he gives them the 'power to become sons of God.'

It just claims it, it doesn't offer it. It's just a claim.

RayAmerica says

What does atheism offer?

Who said it offered anything?

RayAmerica says

the Word was God.

This is the closest I come to believing. I think that the line between real and imaginary is not as distinct as most people think it is.

For example, when you imagine something, you have given it some limited kind of existence even if only in your brain.

Reality is just arrangements of things, forms. So reality is information, like words, and like the forms in your brain.

When you perceive something, the external form is reflected into your brain. The form is copied like a remote web page is copied into your browser's cache.
When you imagine something, the form is created in your brain, and may be reflected externally if you do the work to implement it. You can imagine and then build a house.
Things move between imagination and reality.

Self is an idea, the idea that we have a distinct separation from the rest of the world. "This is me. That is not me." This is also an image in your brain.

Love is inclusion in the idea of self. You are what you love.

Recursion is central to all this, but my brain is not big enough to really understand how. I think that consciousness arises from recursive perception, the perception of perception itself. When you point a video camera at a TV and it spins down the rabbit hole, I think some kind of consciousness may be created in that instant.

I think it was evolutionarily useful for animals to perceive "self" among the other things in the world. You can literally de-brain a cockroach and it will still scurry away from light. The photoreceptors drive the legs without any model of self. But once you have a model of self included in perception, then it can consider potential scenarios relevant to survival.

None of this is to say that there cannot be a "great programmer" in the sky. Maybe there is and we all exist in the RAM of the great computer.

Sorry this is not more coherent. I can't quite see it all clearly of course. Maybe if I have another cup of coffee.

I'll just leave this here:

Bicameral mentality is a hypothesis in psychology and neuroscience which argues that the human mind once operated in a state in which cognitive functions were divided between one part of the brain which appears to be "speaking", and a second part which listens and obeys—a bicameral mind, and that the evolutionary breakdown of this division gave rise to consciousness in humans. The term was coined by Julian Jaynes, who presented the idea in his 1976 book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind,wherein he made the case that a bicameral mentality was the normal and ubiquitous state of the human mind as recently as 3,000 years ago, near the end of the Mediterranean bronze age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameral_mentality

https://www.julianjaynes.org/resources/books/ooc/en/

In other words - the "Voice of God" could have been or continues to be nothing more than an artifact of archaic consciousness.

NuttBoxer says

How do you know what length of time a "day" represented? And again, if God can't create the world in six days, He's not God.

There are an awful lot of people running around at this very moment who take that to mean a day just like we know it right now. That is pretty scary in and of itself, but then again there are still people who believe the Earth is flat.

DD214 says

There are an awful lot of people running around at this very moment who take that to mean a day just like we know it right now. That is pretty scary in and of itself, but then again there are still people who believe the Earth is flat.

There are people who want fines and jail time for misgendering somebody, and to do so is "Hate Speech", which they believe is Evil leading to potential Genocide.

They also believe men give birth and can somehow menstruate despite not having a uterine wall to shed.

That's much more scary than somebody who believes in the Beginning of Time itself, a Divinity created a part of the universe in a literal day.

AmericanKulak says

There are people who want fines and jail time for misgendering somebody, and to do so is "Hate Speech".

They also believe men give birth and can somehow menstruate despite not having a uterine wall to shed.

That's much more scary than somebody who believes in the Beginning of Time itself, a Divinity created a part of the universe in a literal day.

Let's try and leave current politics and the two party system out of this but a very nice deflection attempt - very nice.

Now if you want to go into details about the same people who think all of this creation etc. was done in 6 twenty-four hour days and on the 7th "god" rested, I am all ears.

DD214 says

Let's try and leave current politics and the two party system out of this

No.

It's important to point out that some of the most vociferous critics of Theism are also the biggest advocates that Men who believe they are Women can Menstruate or even give birth.

Patrick says

Sorry this is not more coherent. I can't quite see it all clearly of course. Maybe if I have another cup of coffee.

Why not get some weed? It's not a bad drug if used only occasionally.

A deflection is a defection is a deflection and a meme is a meme is a meme but nice try,

AmericanKulak - Can you do something more than a cartoon meme ? Something with some substance

When all else fails - make it political

Question: which political party did "God" create first and why ?

Who is this "God" favoring in 2024 ? I might want to make a bet if I can get some inside scoop. Maybe I can beat the spread

AmericanKulak says

They also believe men give birth and can somehow menstruate despite not having a uterine wall to shed.

I think (think) what is meant by this is that biological women who are calling themselves "men" can menstruate and do have a uterine wall, but they aren't "women", they're "men" - because they say so.

AmericanKulak says

It's important to point out that some of the most vociferous critics of Theism are also the biggest advocates that Men who believe they are Women can Menstruate or even give birth.

The "left" are using different definitions than you and I do - they have recently redefined what a "man" and "woman" is. Now it's just in the mind, according to them.

I won't deny the looniness of this, but the WHO just redefined what a "pandemic" is. It's just nonsense of course. It's important though, because people in the future that go through a "pandemic" will not understand what the black plague REALLY was, or what smallpox outbreaks REALLY were.

This is coming from the top down, not from the bottom up. It's not like a bunch of lefties just all spontaneously decided that some guy with two onions and a sausage could be a "woman" just because they declared they were. This comes from our media and our "elected" politicians.

People who repeat this tripe, well, now you have an easy time of recognizing who an NPC is - they are just followers and mindless repeaters, but this is not limited to just "the left". Somebody who states "well, the Earth was created 6,000 years ago and Noah's Ark was really really real!" are in the same boat. If Creationists spent any time thinking about it, they'd realize Noah's Ark doesn't make any sense nor does the Garden of Eden - but it's a pointless effort to try to convince them of this. They are just hopelessly controlled, at least in that one aspect.

I used to think Creationists didn't exist, and they were just fucking with me, that ended when I moved to Indiana and found real ones. They're not bad people, but it was quite a shock to me to find ENGINEERS that actually truly believed this stuff. Now I'm finding out the craziness of "the left" here in silly con valley. Both "sides" can be equally, um, "wrong".

DD214 says

A deflection is a defection is a deflection and a meme is a meme is a meme but nice try,

AmericanKulak - Can you do something more than a cartoon meme ? Something with some substance

When all else fails - make it political

Question: which political party did "God" create first and why ?

Who is this "God" favoring in 2024 ? I might want to make a bet if I can get some inside scoop. Maybe I can beat the spread

Sorry, I'm not doing that.

It very much is philosophical as much as political. The meme is simply a succinct way of presenting a double standard.

It's a valid observation that many of the "I fucking love science" and "Where's the Physical Proof of a Deity?" will turn right around and insist that men can menstruate if they feel they are women without any objective, quantifiable proof of menstruation, such as the organs required for menstruation to occur.

Those who insist on Physical Proof for some claims, should not be able to dodge Physical Proof for their claims.

richwicks says

This is coming from the top down, not from the bottom up. It's not like a bunch of lefties just all spontaneously decided that some guy with two onions and a sausage could be a "woman" just because they declared they were. This comes from our media and our "elected" politicians.

It doesn't come from the Media, it comes from PostModernity, from Marcuse to Foucault. In college, Radical Professors taught Marcuse and Foucault and Bell but not any counter-narratives to compare and contrast. That is why the Media changed radically when in did, around 2010-2014.

I succinctly remember in the 2000s there were MSM programs about Dr. Money and David Reimer and the "great mistakes" of the 60s-70s radicals. The reason it changed is because the first generation of brainwashed graduates went to work for the Media.

And yes, I'm going to use another handy meme as a more succinct explanation for what I think happened:

Here is a bit from "Horizons", an MSM documentary series, this 2000s-era episode on Dr. Money's Fraud and the story of David Reimer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yoYmCvhlkU

An an article from the 2004 LA Times, note the lack of tendentious pro-Trans/pro-GenderFluidity argument.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-may-13-me-reimer13-story.html

What changed? A new generation, trained to spout Post Modernist Myths without question or contrast, entered the workforce. The RINOs promised that once Millies paid taxes or got mugged, all that radical indoctrination would go bye-bye. It didn't happen, precisely because A) There were always radicals in universities but they were a minority but Pollyannas didn't realize how dominant Radical Professors became AND their intimidation, and later grovelling obedience, from the Administration B) A critical mass of graduates supported each other and quickly entered the workforce in Media, HR, PR to maintain their narrative.

As an example of the Radical Takeover (rather than the "Don't exaggerate, it's just an odd radical or two in a social science department" narrative which is falsely believed to this day), Clinton mysteriously pardoned terrorist bomber Susan Rosenberg, Radicals at CUNY's John Jay College fell over themselves to give her a job, which they had planned and prepared for in advance of her release, and successfully defended her job offer for 4 semesters against other Academics and public pressure critical of her appointment. She later ended up running "Thousand Currents", a far left organization, and helped set up BLM: "We're trained Marxists" - Patrice Cullors, perhaps referring to Rosenberg's assistance and expertise.

It's interesting how so many Media/Academic Boomers blushingly retreated from 70s Radicalism in the 1990s, only to re-embrace it again in the 2010s.

AmericanKulak says

It doesn't come from the Media, it comes from PostModernity, from Marcuse to Foucault. In college, Radical Professors taught Marcuse and Foucault and Bell but not any counter-narratives to compare and contrast. That is why the Media changed radically when in did, around 2010-2014.

NO! This was not when the break happened, it happened earlier.

I saw the last dying gasps of the media, and it happened in early 2000, the early "naughts".

This is when our media moved from having any pretense of being informative, to being full on propaganda. I largely ignored it, because the Internet was replacing it anyhow, what I didn't realize though is that although I already had dumped television and newspapers as an information source, I was something like a decade ahead of most people.

AmericanKulak says

I succinctly remember in the 2000s there were MSM programs about Dr. Money and David Reimer and the "great mistakes" of the 60s-70s radicals. The reason it changed is because the first generation of brainwashed graduates went to work for the Media.

It was bullshit back then too, you just don't realize it, yet.

Perhaps it's been bullshit all my life. Maybe it's even before the naughts. I became an adult in the 1990's and that's when I really started to pay attention. I can readily accept that all the "news" I got before then was bullshit, and not mistakes but I know, for certain, our "news" became pure bullshit by 2001.

We're finding out just now that the CIA and FBI had a hand in murdering John Kennedy. Consider that. Where were the "investigative journalists"? Maybe they don't exist and have never existed. The people who actually did work to research it were either dismissed as crazy, or murdered - like Dorothy Kilgallen was.

I'm telling you our "news" media turned to shit before you realize, it happened earlier than you think. It probably happened before I think. I can only say for certainty I became absolutely aware of it 20 years ago.

richwicks says

I saw the last dying gasps of the media, and it happened in early 2000, the early "naughts".

This is when our media moved from having any pretense of being informative, to being full on propaganda. I largely ignored it, because the Internet was replacing it anyhow, what I didn't realize though is that although I already had dumped television and newspapers as an information source, I was something like a decade ahead of most people.

We disagree on this one, and we've debated this many times.
richwicks says

It was bullshit back then too, you just don't realize it, yet.

Perhaps it's been bullshit all my life. Maybe it's even before the naughts. I became an adult in the 1990's and that's when I really started to pay attention. I can readily accept that all the "news" I got before then was bullshit, and not mistakes but I know, for certain, our "news" became pure bullshit by 2001.

There's always been bullshit and big gov bias. But back in the 90s there were MSM hosted debates between JFK Assassination Researchers and "It was all Oswald" types. "JFK" was released in Movie Theatres, which definitely takes the Conspiracy viewpoint.

The absolute clampdown on anything threatening to PostModernism and Neoliberal Fascism began in the 2010s. The 80s and 90s were full of everything from MRA's to NeoNazis to UFOs Concealed By Government to Everything Else making arguments on Talk Shows, both TV and Radio. The 2000s was the transition period but it was still Mainstream to assert Men couldn't become Women --- and to oppose the Iraq War.

Even in fiction: You'd NEVER get a show like the X-Files approved today, not just because the lead protagonists are White, but for the topic matter of a Deep State colluding against the Public Interest. And certainly not Silence of the Lambs. "IT DEPICTS WONDERFUL TRANSPERSONS AS INSANE SERIAL KILLERS! HATE SPEECH! JODIE FOSTER IS A BIGOT FOR EVEN THINKING OF ACTING IN THIS GENOCIDAL HIT PIECE!!";

The only surprising thing about this Era is that Hollywood and the BBC haven't incinerated the original copies of "Blazing Saddles" and "Benny Hill"

Woke Media has already called for Dude looks like a Lady and other songs to be removed from circulation.

Here's Forbes Magazine, 2021:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danabrownlee/2021/04/19/why-white-people-should-stop-using-the-term-wokeimmediately/?sh=771c739d7779

This is the kind of sentiment you'd only see in "Maoist International Movement/Rally Against Imperialism" fliers in previous eras, never in a mainstream publication.

The Culture War is real. And Politics is downstream from Culture. Once the Culture is 100% Authoritarian Left-Neoliberal, forgot any hopes of politics, since most/all the voters will be for Authoritarian Neoliberal/Leftism.

DD214 says

According to the physicists etc. there was nothing so how did God come out of nothing ?

[ links to physicists grappling with the something-from-nothing question ]

So as of today I have yet to get anything but a variety of wonderful word salads for an answer from clergy of any church or denomination.

Anyone on here have something better than word salad for an answer ?

Again I ask, how is what the physicists are saying about what came before the current universe any less of a word salad than what the clerics are saying came before the account in Genesis?

Here’s from the CNET article linked in the OP:

"Nothing was around before the Big, Big Bang," Hawking said.

He explained that Einstein's Theory of Relativity insists space and time form a continuum curved by the matter and energy in it.

For Hawking, therefore, the beginning of the universe is best described by a Euclidean approach.

"Ordinary real time is replaced by imaginary time," he said. Honestly, that happens to me all the time. I imagine time has gone by at a certain pace, only to discover I've been imagining things.

For Hawking, however, imaginary time "behaves like a fourth direction of space." He and Euclid believe imaginary time is a "four-dimensional curved surface like the surface of the Earth, but with two more dimensions."

Six-dimensional, then?

The universe, insisted Hawking, has no boundaries. Yes, it's like true love.

What kind of dressing would you like with that?

And how is this any better than saying, as the clerics do, “God always was and always will be”?

AmericanKulak says

There's always been bullshit and big gov bias. But back in the 90s there were MSM hosted debates between JFK Assassination Researchers and "It was all Oswald" types. "JFK" was released in Movie Theatres, which definitely takes the Conspiracy viewpoint.

A fictional one. Sure it opened up the can of worms, but it was fantasized and this was for "artistic reasons" - bullshit, it was just more disinformation.

AmericanKulak says

The absolute clampdown on anything threatening to PostModernism and Neoliberal Fascism began in the 2010s. The 80s and 90s were full of everything from MRA's to NeoNazis to UFOs Concealed By Government to Everything Else making arguments on Talk Shows, both TV and Radio.

This is a propaganda technique known widely as "kookification". What is done is to associate a real, serious, research movement with wacky crazy bullshit. That's what Judy Wood's job is with 9/11.

AmericanKulak says

Even in fiction: You'd NEVER get a show like the X-Files approved today

Although I had an interest in the X-Files as a CHILD, it's another example of kookification.

AmericanKulak says

The only surprising thing about this Era is that Hollywood and the BBC haven't incinerated the original copies of "Blazing Saddles" and "Benny Hill"

Well, the digital age has made it impossible to wipe this out. I know people with 100TB raided (equivalent) drives that just keep the data to share it, they will never use it.

AmericanKulak says

The Culture War is real. And Politics is downstream from Culture.

Culture is created by media. Just divorce yourself from it. I did, 30 years ago.

When I watch a film today, I see it as propaganda - and I used to be a huge film buff, but it's nearly all propaganda.

I noticed that I gravitated (without my awareness) away from that. Go watch The City of Lost Children for example, it's just a weird film. I can't see a political message, but there is with Top Gun...

richwicks says

A fictional one. Sure it opened up the can of worms, but it was fantasized and this was for "artistic reasons" - bullshit, it was just more disinformation.

Obviously movies are constrained by the media used. All movies, including the most historically accurate, have to take some liberties with dialogue and presentation. And the point of view of the producer, writer, director plays a role.

That it presented Garrison's case (although with some anachronisms, facts that weren't discovered until after the real trial) and made it to mainstream theaters is the point.

richwicks says

This is a propaganda technique known widely as "kookification". What is done is to associate a real, serious, research movement with wacky crazy bullshit. That's what Judy Wood's job is with 9/11.

It's a Profit-making business seeking viewers, using controversy. That such programming would never be allowed in a far-more competitive world in 2023 is an indicator of the cultural Overton window being moved by Institutional Forces. We should expect to see MORE controversy today than around 1990, because networks are competing not just with each other and often cable, but now also and streaming and on-demand services. But we don't, and that's because of a massive increase in Social Engineering and Control by the Clerisy.

richwicks says

Culture is created by media. Just divorce yourself from it. I did, 30 years ago.

In modern society, Media is a, if not the, primary transmitter of culture.

Culture determines politics more than anything. If not checked and controlled, Culture will forbid you from divorcing yourself to it. As we saw with COVID and #MeToo, you will be assimilated or cut off.

Just because you ignore Culture, doesn't mean it will ignore you as it shifts Politics.

richwicks says

saw the last dying gasps of the media, and it happened in early 2000, the early "naughts".

Considering all the evils that occurred during that decade, I prefer to call them "The naughties."
richwicks says

Go watch The City of Lost Children for example, it's just a weird film. I can't see a political message,

Junet is great, although I confess that "Amelie" is probably my favorite. Maybe one of these days we'll finally have a realease of "A Very Long Engagement."

AmericanKulak says

Obviously movies are constrained by the media used. All movies, including the most historically accurate, have to take some liberties with dialogue and presentation.

No they don't. There is no need for this at all.

AmericanKulak says

We should expect to see MORE controversy today than around 1990, because networks are competing not just with each other and often cable

I'm telling you that there are people hired by our intelligence agencies to spew bullshit, in order to mask the truth. That's who Judy Woods is. She's not an idiot, she's not insane, she's a liar, a paid propagandist.

AmericanKulak says

In modern society, Media is a, if not the, primary transmitter of culture.

Yes. This the sickness of our society.

"Entertainment" is now propaganda.

AmericanKulak says

Just because you ignore Culture, doesn't mean it will ignore you as it shifts Politics.

I fully recognize I live among grazing animals. What I struggle with is what side should I be on? Help them or slaughter them?

I fully understand the point of view of the people in power, however, I step back on cooperating with them, at this point. At this point.

DD214 says

PeopleUnited says

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

First Question: For those who lived were before Christ what is their fate ?

Second Question: If "God" as you state existed before "time", than what are we to make of either ?

Third Question: The dead shall rise again - now if someone has been cremated, the ashes scattered - the Catholic Church talks in terms of the "Spiritual" Body.

Which are you talking about ? Physical or Spiritual and if the soul departs the body upon death, why is there a need to recreate it ?

https://www.tulipcremation.com/articles/tulip-expert-guides/cremation/catholic-cremation-beliefs.html

1. Anyone who realizes their need of salvation and turns to God’s promise/completed work of sacrifice for their sins is saved. Able sacrificed his livestock as a symbol that He trusted God to provide a savior. Cain wanted to earn his own salvation by providing his vegetables as an offering but this just showed that He did not trust God to provide a savior. The Old Testament Jewish sacrifices, the Passover, they are blood sacrifices to symbolize the fact that without the shedding of blood by the sinless spotless lamb there is no remission of sins. But whether you were born before Jesus or after, all you need is to believe that he has or will do what God promised.

2. God exists. What should you make of it? You should be interested to know why he created you! God created time, what should you make of it? God created time to demonstrate the urgency of seeking Him early, while there is still time to seek Him!

3. In heaven the physical body is reunited with the soul. Even cremated bodies can be reassembled by the Creator so there is no concern there. But the dead rising that I was speaking of happens on this earth during the great tribulation period, a 7 year period of judgement like never before in history that is soon to befall the earth. In the book of Revelation the antichrist is healed of a mortal wound, a kind of resurrection. Also the two witnesses that preach salvation and opposition to the antichrist during the great tribulation are killed and rise up from the dead. That is what I was referring to.

AmericanKulak says

Those who insist on Physical Proof for some claims, should not be able to dodge Physical Proof for their claims.

not much on geology huh ?

To all concerned - I did not buy into the 7 days creation fantasy in Sunday School, didn't go for the Chariot of Fire either, asked too many questions and was deemed a troubled soul as well as a trouble maker.

FYI - It was an Evangelical Lutheran Church.

Left the "cult" as soon as I was able to make a clean break and never looked back.

As for all of the rest, the best answers to my queries have come from Catholic Priests who are willing to take the time to sit and discuss over coffee and a couple of lay preachers who are not quick to condemn you to hell such as the case with the church I was forced to attend as a youth.

Best of all - no politics involved with these folks. Just spirited discussions and some genuine friendship as well.

The evangelical Lutheran church (among many others) is Christian in name only. There are likely some Christians in the pews (though just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn’t mean they follow Christ), but I have serious doubts about the clergy because they don’t seem to follow the plain gospel truths and instead focus on silly things like baptism and communion as if they are magic. But if they told you that unless you have a Savior you will spend eternity in outer darkness hopelessly separated from God, and that offended you, then it is clear that the church is not to blame. Because that is basically exactly the reason Jesus came to earth, just as God promised Adam and Eve after they disobeyed His one rule for them and brought sin and death upon all their descendants.

DD214 says

not much on geology huh ?

Got that amniotic fluid from the transwoman yet?

Patrick says

RayAmerica says

the Word was God.

This is the closest I come to believing.

Read the Greek. This is a reference to Jesus, the Logos.

DD214 says

There are an awful lot of people running around at this very moment who take that to mean a day just like we know it right now. That is pretty scary in and of itself, but then again there are still people who believe the Earth is flat.

That hardline has softened in the past five years. But again, time is a construct God created, not binding for Him. So whether the time as we measure it was a millennium, 24 hours, or 24 seconds, it's irrelevant. Unless He's not God...

“We have not government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” —U.S. President John Adams

From the aspect of broken homes, substance abuse, reversing longevity, obesity, mental disorders, lonliness/unhappiness surveys, etc. the growth of Agnostic/Atheist proportion of the population sure hasn't lead to ever-improving social health as predicted by Modernists but rather the reverse. In the past few years, crime has skyrocketed, wrecking the "Abortion=permanent valley of less crime" narrative.

This is a pattern repeated in the Western World, and to some degree in the advanced Asian Countries.

DD214 says

To all concerned - I did not buy into the 7 days creation fantasy in Sunday School, didn't go for the Chariot of Fire either, asked too many questions and was deemed a troubled soul as well as a trouble maker.

FYI - It was an Evangelical Lutheran Church.

Left the "cult" as soon as I was able to make a clean break and never looked back.

I grew up Baptist, mostly in the Midwest. Maybe not as repressed as the south, but pretty freaking close. Although the last church I was a part of was started as an outreach to SE Asian's, and was comprised of mostly youth. Problem, it was headed my missionary's from the Midwest. They instilled a very works based belief system, that was quick to write you off if you didn't adhere to their unspoken rules. Little love, little grace.

Fortunately, I know God, and He's never shied from my doubts or questions. I have asked Him for specific signs at three points in my life, and He delivered every time. When I was on summer mission trips during college, and had some mighty prayer warriors supporting me, I saw things I have never seen since.

If you look to man, you will be forever disappointed, few of us measure up to the Christians we should be. The good at least have the sense to admit our failures. That helps us to stay humble, and extend the grace we so desperately need ourselves. I know that God loves you, I know it because He loves me. The relationship He wants is with you. It doesn't require a church, a priest, or a Bible. Just your willingness to accept the free gift of salvation through His Son Christ Jesus. He welcomes your questions, and invites you to doubt. Thomas did not believe Christ had risen. And when Christ appeared He did not condemn Thomas, but invited him to put his hands into the wounds to remove His doubt. Only cults require blind trust. God asks for faith, built through a relationship with Him. Never blind.

I don't fit in well at most churches today. But there are good ones if you look. And good Christians, who you've already found. Don't see how Lutheran's get off being so judgy when they go all in on the alcohol. My mom worked for a Lutheran church where the pastor had to check into rehab. I shit you not.

NuttBoxer says

I grew up Baptist, mostly in the Midwest. Maybe not as repressed as the south, but pretty freaking close. Although the last church I was a part of was started as an outreach to SE Asian's, and was comprised of mostly youth. Problem, it was headed my missionary's from the Midwest. They instilled a very works based belief system, that was quick to write you off if you didn't adhere to their unspoken rules. Little love, little grace.

Fortunately, I know God, and He's never shied from my doubts or questions. I have asked Him for specific signs at three points in my life, and He delivered every time. When I was on summer mission trips during college, and had some mighty prayer warriors supporting me, I saw things I have never seen since.

If you look to man, you will be forever disappointed, few of us measure up to the Christians we should be. The good at least have the sense to admit our failures. That helps us to stay humble, and extend the grace we so desperately need ourselves. I know ...

I'm more an agnostic than a Christian (even though I had 13 years of catholic school), but I find it hard to believe that the God that loves us and wants us to know Him can be so secretive and obtuse when it comes to doing what "they" claim we should do.

That's why, the only thing I believe from the Gospels is what Christ is claimed to have said in Matthew 18-20, "When two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

PeopleUnited says

The evangelical Lutheran church (among many others) is Christian in name only.

Why can't you all just learn to get along instead of tearing each other down just to claim my god if better than your god and my sect/denomination/synod whatever the fuck is better than yours and is the only one to get your a permanent pass into Elysian Fields.

This is what I do not get about the whole thing. There are entirely too many "Christians" in name only along with too many of every other religion in name only as well.

And when I run into someone who is born again, reformed, in recovery etc. - I get away as fast as humanly possible because the shit is getting flung high, wide and handsome.

As stated by others previously, and the Bible itself: People who blame Christians for their unwillingness to follow Christ have missed the point. Humans will always let you down, but look to Christ because he never will fail you.

By the way, it was you who started to tear down the evangelical Lutherans. I believe that you referred to them as a cult. I would not go that far, but they do have some serious doctrine issues. Jesus did not baptize babies for example.

PeopleUnited says

By the way, it was you who started to tear down the evangelical Lutherans. I believe that you referred to them as a cult. I would not go that far, but they do have some serious doctrine issues. Jesus did not baptize babies for example.

That is true since I was forced to attend and however your commentary is a Class 1A example of Moral Superiority which I have noted before. You may not go so far as labelling them a cult but you have no problem putting your beliefs at a higher and better level.

Case closed.

PeopleUnited says

Humans will always let you down, but look to Christ because he never will fail you.

Many years ago, I worked closely, on a daily basis, with a man that professed to be a 'born again Christian,' but, in reality, he was a hypocrite of the worst kind. He was well known to be a conniver, a liar, and just overall someone that could not be trusted in the slightest. He was also vulgar and would often use the name of Jesus Christ in a
blasphemous manner. Yet, he kept telling me that I 'needed to be born again.' The entire experience left me very sour regarding 'religion.'

Several years after our daily work relationship ended, I began receiving phone calls from an old friend that I attended high school with. He would often tell me about things that
he had read in the Bible, etc. Originally, I thought he fell off the deep end. For whatever reason, I decided to buy a Bible and read it for myself, starting with the New Testament. What I read surprised me, much of it bringing comfort to what was then a tortured soul. Some verses and passages provoked me to really think about what was
being said. My reading the Bible went on for quite some time, when suddenly, I was confronted, by His word, with my own sin and rebellion against God. I distinctly recall
the sense that I had reached a crossroad. I needed to either follow what I believed to be true, or go back to my life that, on the inside, was a wreck. By God's infinite grace,
He gave me the ability to choose His path. That was over 40 years ago, and even though I went through many trials, etc. I never once regretted making that decision.

One other item; we all have our own 'belief' system that provides the foundation for our life. The question is this: upon what authority do you base that belief system upon?
Is there a higher 'authority' that exceeds God's Word? If so, what is it?

DD214 says

PeopleUnited says

By the way, it was you who started to tear down the evangelical Lutherans. I believe that you referred to them as a cult. I would not go that far, but they do have some serious doctrine issues. Jesus did not baptize babies for example.

That is true since I was forced to attend and however your commentary is a Class 1A example of Moral Superiority which I have noted before. You may not go so far as labelling them a cult but you have no problem putting your beliefs at a higher and better level.

Case closed.

Is the person who believes the world is flat at a lower level than a person who believes it is a sphere?

I don’t think so, and never said so. One is simply right and the other wrong. Examine your own words. It is you who are projecting and accusing me of claiming something I do not claim. My beliefs do not make me superior, I am not superior to anyone in any moral sense.

Truth is truth, and pointing out error is pointing out is pointing out error. If my pointing error is offensive, I would expect it is because the offended person knows it is true, but does not want to accept it and/or make a change. It is called conviction and a sign that God is striving with a person to point out their error and draw them to His words of salvation.

(By the way I was raised Lutheran just like you, and I’m thankful for the upbringing. My family is Lutheran and many friends as too, but when God showed me what I was missing, I followed Him on a new path, a path where religion and denomination are worthless compared the the relationship I have with Him)

stereotomy says

I find it hard to believe that the God that loves us and wants us to know Him can be so secretive and obtuse when it comes to doing what "they" claim we should do.

Stick to Jesus words in the gospels. That's a good starting point. And it doesn't line up with "they" nearly as often as you might think. In fact, in Jesus times His greatest opponents, and the ones who set Him up, where "they". The Pharisees and the Sadducees, the religious leaders of the time.