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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   52,321 views  778 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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181   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 17, 8:25am  

Porch is niche and is doing fine. VW is mainstream and doing meh. Maybe itʼs not such a bad thing to be a niche manufacturer after all...
182   socal2   2024 Jan 17, 8:36am  

RWSGFY says

Porch is niche and is doing fine. VW is mainstream and doing meh. Maybe itʼs not such a bad thing to be a niche manufacturer after all...


I don't think most people truly understand how much more profitable Tesla is compared to the other OEM's.

Elon and Tesla have revolutionized manufacturing bringing costs down.........and after building 2 massive new factories, they basically have zero debt unlike all the other OEM's that are drowning in debt and stuck with old outdated factories and massive pension libailities.



Also, keep in mind that Tesla is beating virtually all of the other OEM's even though Tesla is making a more expensive and difficult to build EV's. When you compare Tesla's margins to other OEM's just EV's, Tesla's lead is even larger!

Tesla is truly one of the best American success stories in my lifetime and their CEO is not a woke retard. But alot of MAGA and Conservatives still have their hate on.


183   Eman   2024 Jan 17, 9:19am  

I love America. I would love to support everything that is made here, but American cars suck compared to Japanese cars. It’s an honor to drive an American made car while having so much fun driving it. No Japanese cars for us as long as Tesla is still around. Definitely no German cars. The maintenance sucks…
184   Eman   2024 Jan 17, 9:20am  

RWSGFY says

Porch is niche and is doing fine. VW is mainstream and doing meh. Maybe itʼs not such a bad thing to be a niche manufacturer after all...

This is the thing. Do what works for yourself and your family. The pond is big enough for so many players. Everyone’s situation is different
186   Eman   2024 Jan 20, 8:16am  

Interesting take from someone who owns a diesel trucking company and has been driving a Tesla for a decade.

https://x.com/allevehicles/status/1748478129746620545?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
187   HeadSet   2024 Jan 20, 9:25am  

Booger says

https://energytheory.com/volvo-ce-and-rolls-royce-bring-wood-burning-off-grid-ev-chargers/

I would not be surprised if those "wood burning" generators end up with an option to burn petroleum products.
188   HeadSet   2024 Jan 20, 9:31am  

Eman says

Interesting take from someone who owns a diesel trucking company and has been driving a Tesla for a decade.

https://x.com/allevehicles/status/1748478129746620545?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

It works for him because he owns private chargers that he needs not wait in line for. The big issue with low temperatures is the very slow charge rate along with the decreased range per charge. This means long lines for those who depend on public charging stations in cold weather.
189   Eman   2024 Jan 20, 9:59am  

HeadSet says

Eman says


Interesting take from someone who owns a diesel trucking company and has been driving a Tesla for a decade.

https://x.com/allevehicles/status/1748478129746620545?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

It works for him because he owns private chargers that he needs not wait in line for. The big issue with low temperatures is the very slow charge rate along with the decreased range per charge. This means long lines for those who depend on public charging stations in cold weather.

I’m a problem solver so I always look for solutions. I believe people, who have no access to a level 2 charger at home or work in cold climate, should think twice about driving/owning an EV. It’s not for everyone.

Thankfully, we live in the Bay Area and never have to deal with freezing or negative temperature. A friend drives a model Y and uses 110V charger at his 1-bedroom condo, and it works for him.

We have two level 2 chargers in our garage so it’s not a problem for us. Guests are encouraged to plug-in their car whenever they’re here as we have surplus with our solar. The 60amp charger, which is mounted near the garage door, is for both indoor and outdoor use. It gives 44 mph. Pretty sweet.
190   HeadSet   2024 Jan 20, 10:12am  

Eman says

The 60amp charger, which is mounted near the garage door, is for both indoor and outdoor use. It gives 44 mph.

The Bolt EUV I had would only get about 24 miles per hour of charge using a Level 2 charger. Even so, that is enough to charge the car overnight.
191   Eman   2024 Jan 20, 10:49am  

24 mph likely has a 40-amp circuit breaker?

In general, I do things with an intention in mind. I call it one time effort for long-term benefits. 😅

We have a 50-amp charger deep inside the garage as I back my car in. We get 30 mph. That’s plenty for overnight charging. The 60-amp is mainly for guests.

The laundry room is next to the garage. The dryer is 30-amp. We should get 18 mph with a 14-50 charging adapter if ever needed.
192   Eman   2024 Jan 20, 10:59am  

The Tesla community on X is strong. Here is a post from some white guy on his Tesla experience. It’s also true for us. We don’t see ourselves ever going back to driving ICE cars.

https://x.com/alex_avoigt/status/1748698497006600642?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
194   Blue   2024 Jan 20, 11:38am  

Stations are more practical solution. On wall socket my plaid takes about 100h to fully charge at around 12A load! btw, I don't have strong opinion on EVs.
195   WookieMan   2024 Jan 20, 12:16pm  

They're not bad cars,Tesla. It's just not the future in our lifetimes. We're not bashing the cars or the owners of them. You guys don't understand capacity of our electric grid and ability to mine the stuff needed to build the batteries. And maintain roads as MFT goes offline with every EV sale. The prices are only going to skyrocket for everything related to them in the next couple years. It will be a burden to own them. They're not green. There's a reason Hertz is selling. I'll semi trust a major corporation that buys cars daily and sells them instead of EV fan boys. Not a knock, just being straight. They have stockholders they have to answer to. You guys just like them and enjoy paying a premium for a vehicle that's going to cost you more very shortly, besides the sticker price.

On paper the idea is good. A fun fast car to drive that you can sell as supposedly "green" but it's not. Your registration, fees and utility costs are going to skyrocket. And yes, it is a golf cart. Understand the tech you're driving. It's been around for decades if you golf. Most other manufacturers have the self driving crap too, so that's not unique to Tesla. I've driven Tesla. I've driven a Jaguar that I didn't touch the wheel dozens of miles that I can fuel up in 3-5 minutes and get 300-400 miles versus 30+ minutes to get less mileage.

I don't care if people buy the "trend" at the moment. It's just not the future. We have way too much oil resources. Network already in place. Tesla is close to maxing out its market. Cyber Truck will be a flop as people that need to tow stuff generally do a lot of miles and can't sit there and charge for 20 minutes to get another 80-100 miles. Time is money and EV's are a money suck.

I also don't understand why anyone would even own a sedan or half assed mid sized SUV. What are you going to do with it? And as mentioned temperature is a thing. A good 1/3rd of the country is in cold weather. I just parked my car for a week at the airport with -7ºf temps (for a high) and it started right up. Tesla ain't doing that and getting back to my house 65 miles away. They're reaching max market saturation. Domestically the buyers are going to be nearing nothing and when the government comes after you for registration or MFT, your expensive golf cart compared to similar sized models just got a whole hell of a lot more expensive.

Sorry for the novel but I know this industry. EV owners are going to get smashed and regret owning them. Just own that it's a car that you like to drive. Don't say it's cheaper. Don't say it's green. By a factor of 2-3 they are worse than ICE vehicles that are similar size and $20-50k cheaper.
196   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 20, 1:02pm  

Eman says

Real clear science


If you can't handle facts because it flies in the face of your personal ideology, that only confirm what I've been saying about EV owners. Unlike Wookie, I call you out on your bullshit.
197   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 20, 1:07pm  

WookieMan says

You guys don't understand capacity of our electric grid and ability to mine the stuff needed to build the batteries


Forget it Wookie. They don't WANT TO UNDERSTAND because to them they are in a cult. The cognitive dissonance is too great for them to overcome.

WookieMan says

We're not bashing the cars or the owners of them.


I am. I tried facts and reason. And calling a spade a spade is the only way to go right now.
198   Eman   2024 Jan 20, 2:20pm  

UkraineIsFucked says


Eman says


Real clear science


If you can't handle facts because it flies in the face of your personal ideology, that only confirm what I've been saying about EV owners. Unlike Wookie, I call you out on your bullshit.


What BS did I make and you called out? 🤪
199   Eman   2024 Jan 20, 2:22pm  

“Just own that it's a car that you like to drive. Don't say it's cheaper. Don't say it's green. By a factor of 2-3 they are worse than ICE vehicles that are similar size and $20-50k cheaper.”

Where did I say it was cheaper and it’s green? You guys keep coming up with straw man arguments. 😂

I drive Tesla because I like it, not because it’s green. I install solar because it makes financial sense, not because it’s green.
200   WookieMan   2024 Jan 20, 4:31pm  

Eman says

Where did I say it was cheaper and it’s green? You guys keep coming up with straw man arguments. 😂

I drive Tesla because I like it, not because it’s green. I install solar because it makes financial sense, not because it’s green.

I really hope this was sarcasm. You bought a Tesla AND installed solar that won't pay back for a decade and it made financial sense?? I get you said you like the car. I've driven them. A hybrid is cheaper by a long shot by MSRP and MPG. So i'd tread lightly saying it makes financial sense. It literally doesn't. At all. Just like a Ferrari doesn't make financial sense.

You bought a car for status. Just admit it. It's okay. They're fun to drive. You didn't need it. They have no functional use besides getting 4 people, with 2 in the back with no leg room from A to B. Between solar panels and the car you literally pissed away $50k at minimum that could have been reinvested in real estate. THIS is what we're saying. You wasted money dude. It's fact.
201   Eman   2024 Jan 20, 5:58pm  

You keep comparing apples to oranges. At the time of purchase, I was eyeing either a MBZ S550, or Lexus LS460. Those cars ride smooth and they have air suspensions. My biz partner bought a Tesla in March 2017 and was heckling me to buy one. Then came August with 0.99% financing and $11.5k tax credit, rebates and discount, I went for it. My net cost was $77k after all the discounts, which was cheaper than ICE cars while the instant torque made the ride much more fun. Also, I get free supercharging for life. That’s $300/month of savings on gas.

You have no idea what “status” means living in the Bay Area. MBZ, BMW, Lexus and Tesla, are everywhere. If you want status, try at least a Ferrari, or Lamborghini Aventador, or a Rolls Royce. You ain’t 💩 if you drive an old Ferrari or Lambo.

This 27-year old Google engineer couple paid over $2M for this “average” house in an average neighborhood in the Bay Area. A $2M house in your neck of the woods maybe a status, but that’s not how it works here.



https://sfstandard.com/2024/01/19/google-engineer-murder-liren-chen-xuanyi-yu/
202   Eman   2024 Jan 20, 6:03pm  

Solar was 100% financed. It’s generating equivalent to $620/month of electricity before all the annual rate increases. It should pay for itself after 6 years. Then free electricity thereafter for the life of the solar, which has 25 years warranty and 92% efficiency at the end of its life span.

When it comes to numbers, I dare anyone dance with me.
203   richwicks   2024 Jan 20, 6:09pm  

Eman says

https://sfstandard.com/2024/01/19/google-engineer-murder-liren-chen-xuanyi-yu/


I thought I recognized that house. Here it is:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/uvftTvyAPFTApDMr6

Google protects criminals. I know it's that house because of the ones on the left and right. I bet the guy vastly over-extended himself and just lost it and went nuts. It is stressful to live here, very expensive. That's why most people sold out and are now working for the intelligence agencies either knowingly or unknowingly.
204   richwicks   2024 Jan 20, 6:10pm  

Eman says


Solar was 100% financed. It’s generating equivalent to $620/month of electricity before all the annual rate increases. It should pay for itself after 6 years. Then free electricity thereafter for the life of the solar, which has 25 years warranty and 92% efficiency at the end of its life span.

When it comes to numbers, I dare anyone dance with me.


You're a welfare whore. If it actually made sense to install solar, instead of having government subsidies, people would buy it without a second thought because it was actually cheaper.

This is simple economics, and drives me crazy that government welfare sluts like you, justify it because you're advantaged by having EVERYBODY ELSE pay for it, when it's a net drain.
205   Blue   2024 Jan 20, 7:45pm  

richwicks says

I thought I recognized that house. Here it is:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/uvftTvyAPFTApDMr6

I was able to see this shack about an hour ago but its masked out now! I know someone who lives in a similar house within 10 min walk west side of it, bought for about 600k way back, now its $2m. This area is ok and kind of ghetto around. The schools are Ok not great unless send to private (15-25k/kid/y).
Only very few can buy now who MADE money through either business or vested lot of stock options. It makes no financial sense to buy and paying taxes at 2m for many.
Yesterday on Radio heard a program "Repeal the death tax" by "Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association" on Prop 19 that was passed last year to put a small dent on commie 1978 Prop 13 no tax for rich paid by poor and middle class! CA is totally f*up with Prop 13 by rich leaches who will never let it get repealed to enslave all middle and poor forever. This is one of the driver to keep houses for generations to keep ever going down tax rates for generations as the tax tied to purchase price!!
206   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 20, 8:10pm  

Eman says

Where did I say it was cheaper and it’s green? You guys keep coming up with straw man arguments. 😂


Your pal socal2 did. And you signed up to his trashed credibility, remember?
207   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 20, 8:11pm  

Eman says

Where did I say it was cheaper and it’s green? You guys keep coming up with straw man arguments. 😂


Your pal socal2 did. And you signed up to his trashed credibility, remember?

Eman says

What BS did I make and you called out?


Unbelievable.
208   Eman   2024 Jan 20, 8:51pm  

UkraineIsFucked says

Eman says


Where did I say it was cheaper and it’s green? You guys keep coming up with straw man arguments. 😂


Your pal socal2 did. And you signed up to his trashed credibility, remember?

Alright, if this is all you got, I’ll never respond to you ever again. It was nice chatting.
209   Eman   2024 Jan 20, 9:07pm  

richwicks says

Eman says



Solar was 100% financed. It’s generating equivalent to $620/month of electricity before all the annual rate increases. It should pay for itself after 6 years. Then free electricity thereafter for the life of the solar, which has 25 years warranty and 92% efficiency at the end of its life span.

When it comes to numbers, I dare anyone dance with me.


You're a welfare whore. If it actually made sense to install solar, instead of having government subsidies, people would buy it without a second thought because it was actually cheaper.

This is simple economics, and drives me crazy that government welfare sluts like you, justify it because you're advantaged by having EVERYBODY ELSE pay for it, when it's a net drain.

Everybody = myself included. I accept what the government offers to everyone. I didn’t take anything from anyone illegitimately.

You’re a whiner. I won’t waste my time with you. See you around Patnet, but don’t expect me to respond to any of your posts in the future.
210   WookieMan   2024 Jan 21, 4:43am  

Eman says

Everybody = myself included. I accept what the government offers to everyone. I didn’t take anything from anyone illegitimately.

You’re a whiner. I won’t waste my time with you. See you around Patnet, but don’t expect me to respond to any of your posts in the future.

Rich is aggressive, so don't get worked up about it. I do like his takes on a lot of things though somewhat repetitive at time. I don't think you're getting what I'm saying at least. The government WILL get their money from you. Especially being in CA with the highest gas tax in the nation. That money is used to pay for your already shitty roads and you're not paying it. And yes I was just out there and I know the industry. CA has awful roads considering they don't freeze and thaw at the lower elevations.

Your $300 savings is going to be a massive swing in registration fees or MFT at the charging station at some point in the near future. CA can legislate fees at charging stations overnight to get tax revenue. Enjoy it now, no one has said you did anything illegitimate. All I'm saying is you overpaid for a car and the saving WILL go away. And in 6 years you're going to need another probably $100k car. You do what you want with your $$$ but it simply isn't logical for a car in any way.

You can't tout real estate prowess and then talk about a $70k car being a good value and you're saving money. You're not. You can buy an electric hybrid and pay $0 in gas. And you can get bigger cars that have more utility for $40k with longer range. We don't have the grid for this shit and you know it out in CA. Just admit the only reason you have it is status and it's a fun car to drive. That's 100% and not a judgement. I've been to CA plenty and have seen the useless luxury cars. It's stupid bad out there.

Put the $30-50k difference into investments, not cars. I hope you paid cash too. Financing $70k on a car is doubling down on a bad decision. This isn't a horse and carriage to a model T. You can get other cars that get from A to B. Driving an expensive car is just a target on your back that people know they extract your money. Again have fun with it, but there are nice cars for half the cost and still can be $0 in gas a month. Hybrids will get taxed too. I frankly don't get how this is even a conversation. You cannot pay for roads taking ICE vehicles off the roads, especially out there. It's coming dude. The roads and grid need the $$$$ and a lot of it.
211   Booger   2024 Jan 21, 5:26am  

In theory can we take a used EV and sell it to each other (as in pass it to the next person) so we can all get the tax credit?
212   WookieMan   2024 Jan 21, 5:39am  

Booger says

In theory can we take a used RV and sell it to each other (as in pass it to the next person) so we can all get the tax credit?

Not sure. I think most tax credits have to be new purchases. I don't think the 2nd to whatever number person gets it. I don't know why we're giving these credits out anyway. As I've said Musk has made great things but he's the biggest tax grifter to have existed in US history and that's including the MIC industries.
213   Booger   2024 Jan 21, 5:45am  

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-credit

Used Clean Vehicle Credit

Beginning January 1, 2023, if you buy a qualified used electric vehicle (EV) or fuel cell vehicle (FCV) from a licensed dealer for $25,000 or less, you may be eligible for a used clean vehicle tax credit (also referred to as a previously owned clean vehicle credit). The credit equals 30% of the sale price up to a maximum credit of $4,000.

OK, so you have to buy it from a dealership, and there are income limits.
214   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 21, 7:58am  

Booger says


https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-credit

Used Clean Vehicle Credit

Beginning January 1, 2023, if you buy a qualified used electric vehicle (EV) or fuel cell vehicle (FCV) from a licensed dealer for $25,000 or less, you may be eligible for a used clean vehicle tax credit (also referred to as a previously owned clean vehicle credit). The credit equals 30% of the sale price up to a maximum credit of $4,000.

OK, so you have to buy it from a dealership, and there are income limits.


You need a dealer license for your scheme of passing the same EV around to work. Buy it as a dealer, sell it to your friend, split $4K, buy it back, sell it to another friend, split $4K, rinse, repeat...

It stupid states like CA sales tax will cut into your profits though.
215   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 21, 8:25am  

Eman says

Alright, if this is all you got, I’ll never respond to you ever again. It was nice chatting.


All I got?

YOU signed up to the socal2 bullshit gravy train. I specifically asked if that is what you were willingly doing. And you did.

So it isn't about 'what I got'. I don't have to do much of anything. You just did it all.
216   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 21, 8:28am  

WookieMan says

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying at least.


I think he does but can't acknowledge it since he can't argue against inconvenient facts. He's really pinned now that he's latched his credibility to socal2's, too.
217   WookieMan   2024 Jan 21, 9:31am  

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says


I don't think you're getting what I'm saying at least.


I think he does but can't acknowledge it since he can't argue against inconvenient facts. He's really pinned now that he's latched his credibility to socal2's, too.

I'm just looking for honesty really. It's cheaper to have a similar model hybrid car that can get $0/mo in gas that gets more range and utility and half the cost. Just say it's a fun car to drive and call it a day if you're an EV owner. It's mathematically not cheaper than most ICE cars.

I'm not joking when I talk about the golf cart thing. I dropped $1,300 on a cheap lithium battery to get 25-30 miles at 16mph. Scale that out by distance, speed, weight, etc. The CA guys live in the most expensive state and their state government is coming after the EV owners shortly. It's gonna happen. I'm commenting more as a warning and it seems like the obvious is being ignored. Whatever.
219   richwicks   2024 Jan 21, 4:12pm  

Eman says


Everybody = myself included. I accept what the government offers to everyone. I didn’t take anything from anyone illegitimately.


The government is illegitimate. Don't you realize that? We don't have border controls, our current jerk off of a president wasn't elected, we have political prisoners, we don't have free speech, our government directly censors individuals, and our military is completely occupied in going to wars that have nothing to do with this country as our president and many members of congress openly engage in accepting bribes and doing insider stock trading.

That's our government.

If solar panels actually produced cheaper electricity, and they don't in many cases, just be installing solar your electric bill would go down. It doesn't. This is another boondoogle program that harms EVERYBODY. The energy consumption in producing your solar panels very likely exceeds the amount of energy you'll ever recover from using them. That make any sense to you?

They're basically intermittent batteries that never get more energy out of them than is put into making them. Who would do this?

In time we might get viable solutions, but there's no sense installing nonviable ones.

Eman says


You’re a whiner. I won’t waste my time with you.


I'm an engineer, I use my brain. You don't. MOST people don't. Most engineers don't. I'm fucking tired of it. "Duuuur, it advantages me because I offload the cost using a corrupt stupid government to do it!" You don't even recognize that you MIGHT be scum.

All these green-energy initiatives just consume MORE energy. People do the analysis and explain it, it's not part of the latest government scam so it's never in your stupid "news".

Do you think they are JUST finding out that solar electric doesn't make sense? Solar ALMOST does - if you take good care of it and maintain it, you can actually walk out ahead, but you have also be lucky, no breakage, have to remove dust, etc. Solar is the closest thing we've got, wind is a complete wash, total waste of money. It's engineered stupidity. There's just SO MANY SCAMS, and we have real problems to work on.

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