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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   15,470 views  517 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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323   Eman   2024 Feb 3, 11:35pm  

I hope it doesn’t catch on fire. 😂


324   WookieMan   2024 Feb 4, 2:10pm  

Eman says

Someone, who owns a “real truck” probably $40-$50k new, just bought a “not real truck” for over $100k and wrapped it too. Hope he makes his money back quickly with the biz. 👊

Hope this is sarcasm? First it's over priced. Second the last thing you should EVER do is wrap your car with your business information unless you're a perfect driver. Not likely. Might as well put a target on your back. Either way the $50k plus the wrap is gonna take 10 years to pay off at least over a similar model ICE vehicle.

EV's make zero sense. And they won't. Research golf carts. It will surprise you. 30 year + tech,
325   GNL   2024 Feb 4, 3:00pm  

We thought about paying to wrap some of our contractors cars but decided against it. Especially if it is someone else's car.
326   Eman   2024 Feb 4, 4:57pm  

WookieMan says

Eman says


Someone, who owns a “real truck” probably $40-$50k new, just bought a “not real truck” for over $100k and wrapped it too. Hope he makes his money back quickly with the biz. 👊

Hope this is sarcasm? First it's over priced. Second the last thing you should EVER do is wrap your car with your business information unless you're a perfect driver. Not likely. Might as well put a target on your back. Either way the $50k plus the wrap is gonna take 10 years to pay off at least over a similar model ICE vehicle.

EV's make zero sense. And they won't. Research golf carts. It will surprise you. 30 year + tech,

Why would I be sarcastic about a business owner, who made the purchase, that likely works FOR HIM? I wish ALL business owners well and make a boatload of money. It’s not easy to be a business owner. Too easy to be a W2 employee.

I remember reading somewhere about risk taking. It said “Take risk. If you fail, you’ll be wiser. If you succeed, you will be happy you did.” Now standing on the other side of it, it rings so true and I’m happy I did it.
327   Eman   2024 Feb 4, 5:06pm  

Just looked at my Cybertruck reservation. That business owner paid $113k out the door for the AWD version and $135k if it’s the CyberBeast. The wrap is likely another $5-$8k. Although it’s a nice business writ off per IRS Section 179, it’s a nice chunk of change. Hope he sells enough coffee to recoup the cost.
328   B.A.C.A.H.   2024 Feb 4, 6:03pm  

Lots of power outages here in the Bay Area with the storm.

I hope the hipsters all got their EVs charged up.
329   GNL   2024 Feb 4, 6:53pm  

Eman says

It’s not easy to be a business owner. Too easy to be a W2 employee.

Too true.
330   Eman   2024 Feb 4, 7:57pm  

Even power outages are racist. None of my family and friends mentioned about power outages for today…..yet.
331   WookieMan   2024 Feb 4, 8:39pm  

Eman says

It’s not easy to be a business owner. Too easy to be a W2 employee.

Dude, it's easy to do one or the other. Done both. I ran my own business. I've also ran someone else's business as a W-2. I ain't hurting at all. My skills are beyond pretty much anyone I know. Running a business is trivial.

I've set up at least 15 LLC's for commercial properties and businesses. Did the taxes. Property management. That was the side gig after running a real estate brokerage with 20 agents. Small, but ain't no one here doing it. And when I say run I mean everything. I'm technically retired. I don't have to wrk and have nothing to manage. My W-2 did me well. Running a business is writing off taxes as you lose money that you're not earning but can still spend.
332   Eman   2024 Feb 4, 8:46pm  

Apparently power outages are real news. Thankfully we haven’t gotten hit…..yet.

https://x.com/rawsalerts/status/1754364712119050633?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
334   Eman   2024 Feb 10, 6:33pm  

Saw this and thought of Wookie’s golf cart


335   WookieMan   2024 Feb 10, 8:04pm  

Eman says

Saw this and thought of Wookie’s golf cart




You thought right. Still doesn't change my stance on the cars. They're glorified golf carts. You don't know the tech. It's not different. Motors and batteries. Not much else to it besides design and size of battery. Electric carts have been around for 30+ years now. I like Musk. This is nothing new though.
336   WookieMan   2024 Feb 10, 8:09pm  

You bought an overpriced car. That's okay. I don't care. Not my money. Just own it is all I ask. I literally can do zero to 60 in a golf cart as fast as a Tesla. Electric motors are amazing. I'll never dispute that. Tesla isn't special. We don't have the grid or MFT funds for it to work. That's fact.
337   GNL   2024 Feb 10, 9:00pm  

WookieMan says

Electric carts have been around for 30+ years now. I like Musk. This is nothing new though.

Can a golf cart go 405 miles on a single charge? If so, how long would it take for a golf cart to travel that 405 miles?
338   GNL   2024 Feb 10, 9:04pm  

WookieMan says

I literally can do zero to 60 in a golf cart as fast as a Tesla.


Wookie getting ready to race a Tesla.


339   Eman   2024 Feb 10, 10:24pm  

WookieMan says

You bought an overpriced car. That's okay. I don't care. Not my money. Just own it is all I ask. I literally can do zero to 60 in a golf cart as fast as a Tesla. Electric motors are amazing. I'll never dispute that. Tesla isn't special. We don't have the grid or MFT funds for it to work. That's fact.

It maybe overpriced for you, but not others. I believe I got good value for the car while socal2 didn’t think he overpaid for it.

You can do 0-60 in a golf cart as fast as a Tesla. Please do, time it and share the result for all of us to see.

No one says Tesla is special. The reason it makes more sense to buy Tesla over other EVs is due to its charging infrastructure. If one likes speed for the bragging rights, it’s slightly faster than other EVs at the same spec and price range.

We don’t have the grid and MFT funds for it to work. Let’s wait till 2025, like you said, to find out. I’m not a politician. I’m not in the loop or that business to know.
340   WookieMan   2024 Feb 11, 1:35am  

GNL says

WookieMan says

Electric carts have been around for 30+ years now. I like Musk. This is nothing new though.

Can a golf cart go 405 miles on a single charge? If so, how long would it take for a golf cart to travel that 405 miles?

For $10K I can get a golf cart to do that. 100%. Batteries, wheels and motor swap. 55mph. Easy.

Also no Tesla is going 405 miles on a charge without being extremely uncomfortable. 280-300 is max real life at highway speeds. Then sit at a charger for 30 minutes. Can't fit anyone in it. Can't fit luggage or go camping.

Eman says

You can do 0-60 in a golf cart as fast as a Tesla. Please do, time it and share the result for all of us to see.

Yes, people do with carts. I don't because there's no point. My cart is for around town. My car is a V8 that can tow, handle 7 passengers and luggage. Go 400 miles on a 4 minute fill up. Was $30k cheaper than any model Tesla. So the gas doesn't matter over the life of the car.

It's not anything to do with affording it. It's the practicality and function of it. A Tesla is worthless to me no matter how fun it is to drive. I could buy 5 tomorrow. I don't want one. You specifically don't listen to me and defend an overpriced toy to get A to B. Congrats on wasting $20-50k more then better cars for life. Clearly you don't have kids.
341   Blue   2024 Feb 11, 1:52am  

WookieMan says

Also no Tesla is going 405 miles on a charge without being extremely uncomfortable. 280-300 is max real life at highway speeds.

True, at least in my case. Ideally it must reach LA but it doesn't. @WookieMan not sure you realized before wasting your time, @Eman talks to himself most of the time!
342   GNL   2024 Feb 11, 3:44am  

Google said 405 mile range for a model X. Please share a video of a golf cart beating a corvette 0 to 60. I'd love to see that.
343   Eman   2024 Feb 11, 9:32am  

Blue says

WookieMan says


Also no Tesla is going 405 miles on a charge without being extremely uncomfortable. 280-300 is max real life at highway speeds.

True, at least in my case. Ideally it must reach LA but it doesn't. WookieMan not sure you realized before wasting your time, Eman talks to himself most of the time!

The difference between us is that I just make things work with whatever the current established rules and regulations. I don't whine and bitch like others @Blue.
344   Eman   2024 Feb 11, 9:37am  

GNL says

Google said 405 mile range for a model X. Please share a video of a golf cart beating a corvette 0 to 60. I'd love to see that.


It’s actually for the model S. They did a test a couple years ago from the Bay Area to Hawthorn SoCal in one shot. However, the conditions were keeping the speed limit between 65-70 miles with the A/C between levels 2-3.

The faster one drives, the more range EV loses due to higher drag force. Same with using HVAC as the consume more battery.
345   Eman   2024 Feb 11, 9:49am  

Another cool feature about Tesla is that one can cool or heat the car remotely. It takes a couple minutes for us here in the Bay Area, but up to 8 minutes for folks in Canada with negative temperature. It’s great for people with young kids/babies.

In summer when it’s 100 degree outside and there’s no shade, one can sit in the car with A/C while there’s no engine running. The same with winter.

I’m sure the golf cart can do the same right, @Wookieman? Oh, and the golf cart can drive itself too.
346   socal2   2024 Feb 11, 9:52am  

Tesla - "iTs jUsT A cAR cOMpAnY......."

The latest version of Tesla's Full Self Driving using neural nets and only video for training is unbelievable. There isn't anything close to this in this world and Tesla is adding millions of miles of new training video every single day.

Tesla will be selling this to all of the other OEM's who are still still in business in the next 5 years.

https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1756522414845186327
347   socal2   2024 Feb 11, 10:00am  

Eman says

Another cool feature about Tesla is that one can cool or heat the car remotely. It takes a couple minutes for us here in the Bay Area, but up to 8 minutes for folks in Canada with negative temperature. It’s great for people with young kids/babies.


Love that feature. I have it as a widget on my phone and never get into my Tesla without having it heated or cooled. Only takes 2-3 minutes.

Another newish feature that came last year was the AUTO seat-heat and steering wheel heat. It just works. I never have to mess around to adjust. I thought I wouldn't like the auto feature at first, but love it now. Same with HVAC. I just leave it at 70 and everything just works. I rarely adjust anything. Granted, my weather is pretty amazing, but I have never driven a car in SoCal where I wasn't always messing with temperature settings and modes.
348   WookieMan   2024 Feb 11, 10:26am  

GNL says

Google said 405 mile range for a model X. Please share a video of a golf cart beating a corvette 0 to 60. I'd love to see that.

107mph in a quarter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n29-vBL93eM

Biggest issue is safety. There are plenty of carts that could blow a Corvette or Tesla out of the water speed wise. It is just not safe. Golf carts are mini EV's. I'm not sure the disconnect on this topic.

I was driving electric carts since I was 14 at my country club. The tech has been around forever. I know the families that maintain most of the electric carts in my region. The batteries cost a fortune and always will. That's why the costs have hit the floor at this point. They have to lower size and range to cut costs and make them a 100 mile vehicle range wise. But no one would buy it.

Hybrid EV's are the future. We have copious amounts of oil. My mom has a RAV-4 hybrid and fuels up maybe once a quarter and lives over an hour one way to visit. For the MSRP tag difference on a Tesla I'd take the RAV-4 10 out of 10 times. High speed and acceleration is a small dick syndrome thing. Enjoy that. I'll enjoy my car that can tow 9k lbs with ease and can refuel in 4 minutes and still go further than a Tesla sedan.
349   porkchopXpress   2024 Feb 11, 10:30am  

WookieMan says


I don't because there's no point. My cart is for around town. My car is a V8 that can tow, handle 7 passengers and luggage. Go 400 miles on a 4 minute fill up. Was $30k cheaper than any model Tesla. So the gas doesn't matter over the life of the car.

It's not anything to do with affording it. It's the practicality and function of it. A Tesla is worthless to me no matter how fun it is to drive. I could buy 5 tomorrow. I don't want one. You specifically don't listen to me and defend an overpriced toy to get A to B. Congrats on wasting $20-50k more then better cars for life. Clearly you don't have kids.
I tend to agree. By all means, I'm glad Teslas and EVs exist for people who want them and I really hope the innovation continues, but they make no economic or practical sense right now.
350   ForcedTQ   2024 Feb 11, 11:03am  

porkchopXpress says


WookieMan says


I don't because there's no point. My cart is for around town. My car is a V8 that can tow, handle 7 passengers and luggage. Go 400 miles on a 4 minute fill up. Was $30k cheaper than any model Tesla. So the gas doesn't matter over the life of the car.

It's not anything to do with affording it. It's the practicality and function of it. A Tesla is worthless to me no matter how fun it is to drive. I could buy 5 tomorrow. I don't want one. You specifically don't listen to me and defend an overpriced toy to get A to B. Congrats on wasting $20-50k more then better cars for life. Clearly you don't have kids.
I tend to agree. By all means, I'm glad Teslas and EVs exist for people who want them and I really hope the innovation continues, but they make no economic or practical sense right now.


EVs work for a certain group of people, or as a commuter vehicle for some with an ICE vehicle to also use. They shouldn’t be pushed on people with bullshit mandates for phasing out ICE vehicle purchase/production, government incentives for purchase, lack of remittance of alternative MFT for road use, and government subsidies for charging stations/locations that are in excess of anything the liquid fuels industry receives.
351   Eman   2024 Feb 11, 12:19pm  

porkchopXpress says

WookieMan says



I don't because there's no point. My cart is for around town. My car is a V8 that can tow, handle 7 passengers and luggage. Go 400 miles on a 4 minute fill up. Was $30k cheaper than any model Tesla. So the gas doesn't matter over the life of the car.

It's not anything to do with affording it. It's the practicality and function of it. A Tesla is worthless to me no matter how fun it is to drive. I could buy 5 tomorrow. I don't want one. You specifically don't listen to me and defend an overpriced toy to get A to B. Congrats on wasting $20-50k more then better cars for life. Clearly you don't have kids.
I tend to agree. By all means, I'm glad Teslas and EVs exist for people who want them and I really hope the innovation continues, but they make no economic or practical sense right now.

Porkchop,

Serious question. Have you ever owned an EV or a Tesla? My wife and I used to be ICE car drivers, and we don’t see ourselves ever going back to to ICE cars.

EV may not make economic and practical sense for everyone, but it does for some. Just like voting, some people think a politician is a loser while others believe otherwise. If I ever had to own a full size SUV, it would be a Toyota Land Cruiser or Sequoia. It would never buy a Nissan Armada. No reason to buy a second or third tier Japanese SUV.
352   GNL   2024 Feb 11, 1:04pm  

WookieMan says


107mph in a quarter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n29-vBL93eM

That is impressive but it's more gimmick than a Tesla. There's no disconnect though, I've never thought EVs were the way to go either for a bunch of reasons that have been thoroughly covered. I do like the the hybrid concept and I'll probably end up with getting one as my or my wife's next vehicle.
353   Eman   2024 Feb 11, 1:13pm  

GNL says

WookieMan says



107mph in a quarter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n29-vBL93eM

That is impressive but it's more gimmick than a Tesla. There's no disconnect though, I've never thought EVs were the way to go either for a bunch of reasons that have been thoroughly covered. I do like the the hybrid concept and I'll probably end up with getting one as my or my wife's next vehicle.

Yup, I agree hybrid is the way to go. However, EV meets our needs with basically no maintenance and going to the gas stations once a week.

We don’t see ourselves buying a used vehicle ever again. Having the warranty and extended warranty is a must for us.

Time is money right? EV saves us time.
354   GNL   2024 Feb 11, 1:18pm  

I just don't understand why they wouldn't put more thought into the look of the cars though. There are so many cars out there that look a lot better than a Tesla.
355   HeadSet   2024 Feb 11, 2:05pm  

Eman says

Same with using HVAC as the consume more battery.

On that Bolt EUV I had, the battery was constantly cooled and if you wanted A/C, it tapped off of the battery cooler. Running A/C did not affect the range, however running a heater did. That A/C was quite powerful and cooled the cabin fast.
356   GNL   2024 Feb 11, 2:05pm  

HeadSet says

Eman says


Same with using HVAC as the consume more battery.

On that Bolt EUV I had, the battery was constantly cooled and if you wanted A/C, it tapped off of the battery cooler. Running A/C did not affect the range, however running a heater did. That A/C was quite powerful and cooled the cabin fast.

Tiny car, no?
357   HeadSet   2024 Feb 11, 2:17pm  

GNL says

Tiny car, no?

Like a RAV4. What is your point? I suspect that if Chevy made that Silverado electric, the systems would work the same way.
358   GNL   2024 Feb 11, 2:58pm  

HeadSet says

GNL says


Tiny car, no?

Like a RAV4. What is your point? I suspect that if Chevy made that Silverado electric, the systems would work the same way.

I was thinking a tiny car would cool down quicker than a larger car.
359   Blue   2024 Feb 11, 3:30pm  

Eman says


EV may not make economic and practical sense for everyone, but it does for some.

Yes, particularly to those who collect others tax money under "gov incentives" ;) this incentives can apply to so many other vehicles under business expenses.
(PS: I have to admit that I am one of them to be honest for my Tesla plaid model s)
360   Eman   2024 Feb 11, 4:17pm  

HeadSet says

Eman says


Same with using HVAC as the consume more battery.

On that Bolt EUV I had, the battery was constantly cooled and if you wanted A/C, it tapped off of the battery cooler. Running A/C did not affect the range, however running a heater did. That A/C was quite powerful and cooled the cabin fast.

Yes, A/C doesn’t consume much. Heat consumes more. However, it heats up quickly. Kind of like a hair dryer.
361   Eman   2024 Feb 11, 4:21pm  

GNL says

I just don't understand why they wouldn't put more thought into the look of the cars though. There are so many cars out there that look a lot better than a Tesla.

Aerodynamic would be my guess. The S looks good. The refreshed model 3 looks good. Model X looks alright. Model Y is getting a facelift this year too.

I don’t know why and how the Cybertruck made the cut. I needed the truck then, but no longer need one now so I’m not buying. I told my wife it it weren’t made by Tesla, no one would buy this fugly Cybertruck. 😅
362   Eman   2024 Feb 11, 4:26pm  

Blue says

Eman says



EV may not make economic and practical sense for everyone, but it does for some.

Yes, particularly to those who collect others tax money under "gov incentives" ;) this incentives can apply to so many other vehicles under business expenses.
(PS: I have to admit that I am one of them to be honest for my Tesla plaid model s)

Tesla sold its EVs just fine without the tax incentives in 2022. In fact, Elon said no tax incentives. The government is the one who came up with these incentives. Sorry, but we don’t get to decide. It is what it is.

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