patrick.net

DhammaStep says

rocketjoe79 says

The breed is unnecessary and dangerous. They need to go.

The breed of human that believes in giving up rights for just a feeling of safety need to go.

You don't want a virus or to get mauled by a bear or get robbed or any number of bad things? Stay inside. I've had quite enough of other people's phobias being imposed on me these past few years.

I was knocked down and severely bitten by a German Shepard leaped an 8' chain link fence and chased me to the street when I was a paperboy. Owner is still responsible. They weren't home to "control" their dog.

GNL says

DhammaStep says

rocketjoe79 says

The breed is unnecessary and dangerous. They need to go.

The breed of human that believes in giving up rights for just a feeling of safety need to go.

You don't want a virus or to get mauled by a bear or get robbed or any number of bad things? Stay inside. I've had quite enough of other people's phobias being imposed on me these past few years.

If someone gets their face ripped off, what should happen to you? What has happened to any of these owners whose dogs have done such things?

There was a famous case in SFBA about two dogs getting out of an apartment and killing a neighbor. Both owners went to prison for a long time.

PS. The problem with "bully" breeds in the US is that most of these dogs are bred by lowlife ghetto scum and the the most typical path for these dogs into normal folks' homes is through shelters. So basically you don't know how that adorable pitbull puppy was bred, have no idea of the lineage and whether there were some vicious and uncontrollable dogs amongst its ancestors. When dogs are bred by responsible breeders such bad apples are weeded out from the gene pool. When Jamal and Trayvon decide to run a puppy mill go get some dogs for dogfighting - the opposite happens. And no, you can't control any dog, irregardless of its pedigree - it's just hubris and internet bravado talking.

If I was walking down the street and two pitbulls come running down the street at me my reaction would be 100% different if it was two golden retrievers, it would be common sense. I've seen enough issues with pitbulls going agro, my best friend was attached by one he had to smash its head in to get it to let go.

rocketjoe79 says

I was knocked down and severely bitten by a German Shepard leaped an 8' chain link fence and chased me to the street when I was a paperboy. Owner is still responsible. They weren't home to "control" their dog.

Did you press charges?

RC2006 says

If I was walking down the street and two pitbulls come running down the street at me my reaction would be 100% if it was two golden retrievers, it would be common sense. I've seen enough issues with pitbulls going agro, my best friend was attached by one he had to smash its head in to get it to let go.

Golden retrievers don't appear in rap music videos, not being bred in ghettos, never used in illegal dogfighting, etc. So different reaction is completely warranted. The gene pool of pitbulls, Staffordshire terriers, Presa Canario and several other breeds, has been severely tainted by irresponsible uncontrolled breeding aimed at participation in dogfighting - it's a fact.

GNL says

Now your just makin up BS. A dog has a mind of it's own. Not only that but, do you reject the fact that breeds are created for certain purposes? How many stories have been told that "the dog was always loving and friendly. I have no idea why it snapped".

So you've gotta be against rifles then right? I mean they are created for only purpose, defense of country. Having a dog that can defend your property from intruders, just wrong huh? What about my husky from when I was a kid. She was a stray from the woods in Michigan. Could've had some wolf in here. Dangerous right, since huskies definitely know how to hunt. We found her because the bus stop was at the end of our street, and she used to come meet the kids after school every day. Viscous animal...

I personally have never heard a single story like that, and my BIL has been breeding and selling American Bully's for years. Like I mentioned, the sweetest dog we ever owned was big. My chihuahua is the only one that's ever gone after a kid.

GNL says

One day they both attacked her young children. She did everything she could but to no avail, the dogs killed both of her children right in front of her. What should happen to that woman?

What the fuck man!? You don't think enough has happened to here already. Don't you know not to kick someone when they're down?

GNL says

The dog was jumping at me and and biting my arm. He was doing what he was bred to do. Eventually I had to give the dog a hard knee to the chest. That did not deter him. I told my son in law to handle his dog. We will not go over there again unless the dog is crated. NO, they do not mistreat their dogs.

Great example of someone who should not own a dog. If your son had properly trained and mastered that dog, never would have happened. If he's not careful, he will be one of your statistics.

My wife's friend does rescues for a living. They own the biggest fucking dog I've ever seen in my life. The dog has some training, but friend is one of those uneven people who view dogs as humans, not animals. They started noticing the dog getting anxious around the kids and the pool, so they've stopped having him out at parties. My wife has helped out when they're away a few times. Once she was out in the yard with my youngest, and the dog got a little aggressive with the contact, and very lightly put it's mouth on her arm while she was holding our daughter(because the dog was making her nervous). She jumped the fence and got them both out of there. She won't have my youngest around the dog anymore when she helps out, and is pretty careful herself around the dog. I've been with him since then, thrown his rope toy, played tug-of-war with him. But I make sure to maintain a calm demeanor, and never, EVER let the dog initiate contact with me, or get too close if I don't want him too.

People that don't know what they're doing are dangerous, whether it's guns or dogs.

rocketjoe79 says

I was knocked down and severely bitten by a German Shepard leaped an 8' chain link fence and chased me to the street when I was a paperboy. Owner is still responsible. They weren't home to "control" their dog.

When I was two, neighbor had some big dog, and every day when neighbor came home, I used to say hi to him, and would stick my hand right through the fence to pet his dog. Still have both hands today...

Hugh_Mongous says

has been severely tainted by irresponsible uncontrolled breeding aimed at participation in dogfighting - it's a fact.

So any group that's naturally larger is going to be aggressive, violent, and kill? Guessing you stay far away from Nordic countries. Sweden, Denmark, Holland, dangerous places huh? North Korea on the other hand, or China, super safe, look at how small those Asians are!

NuttBoxer says

Great example of someone who should not own a dog. If your son had properly trained and mastered that dog, never would have happened. If he's not careful, he will be one of your statistics.

It was an example of the innateness in that dog breed. He didn't teach the dog to do that, it was bred into the dog. Don't you get that? Also, comparing dogs and guns is pretty inappropriate.

Hugh_Mongous says

rocketjoe79 says

I was knocked down and severely bitten by a German Shepard leaped an 8' chain link fence and chased me to the street when I was a paperboy. Owner is still responsible. They weren't home to "control" their dog.

Did you press charges?

This was a long time ago and I was a kid. So, no.

NuttBoxer says

Great example of someone who should not own a dog. If your son had properly trained and mastered that dog, never would have happened.

Or he tried and failed because the dog is genetically incapable of being trained to the necessary standard. There are retrievers which can't retrieve, shepherds which can't herd, standard poodles dumb as a bag of rocks, guard dogs which can't guard and then there are overly aggressive dogs which can't be trained to be 100% docile in a normal family environment. Getting a dog from a known lineage with ancestors proven to be able to do what they are supposed to do decreases chances to get a "dud", but does't not 100% guarantees it won't be one.

My other question would be: why the fuck one gets such a dog as a family companion? They weren't bred for that in the first place. What's the point of pressing, say, Dogo Argentino into a job of a coach cushion when they were bred for pack hunting of wild boars?

GNL says

It was an example of the innateness in that dog breed. He didn't teach the dog to do that, it was bred into the dog. Don't you get that? Also, comparing dogs and guns is pretty inappropriate.

Of course he didn't teach the dog to do that. Seems like he didn't teach the dog do much of anything. Didn't teach it he's the master of the house. Didn't teach it not to jump. Didn't teach it to respect others space. Just like if I leave a loaded gun around a 10 year old, and don't teach them shit about it, something bad might happen.

Also agree on the dog/gun comparison, it's not fair to the dog.

Eric Holder says

Or he tried and failed because the dog is genetically incapable of being trained to the necessary standard.

So what about all the stories I've told about big dogs who don't exhibit those behaviors? Do I just happen to know every exception to the rule?

All of you who don't understand dogs. If you want to learn more trying watching one of Caesar Milan's shows. Pretty entertaining, and you'll get to see him train these big vicious animals using the same techniques he applies to small breeds. In fact, he specializes in Pit Bulls, and has refuted every point made here resoundingly, because it's what he does for a living, and how he started his career.
That guy isn't a genius or anything, he just really knows dogs, and his experience shows.

So, according to NuttBoxer, owners of dangerous dogs are supposed to...
1. Be expert dog trainers except there's no governing body to decide who can and who can't own these dogs.
2. Not believe that breeds have been bred for different purposes.

Am I close to correct?

Btw, I agree that my son inlaw should not own a Cane Corso. Now what?

NuttBoxer says

Hugh_Mongous says

has been severely tainted by irresponsible uncontrolled breeding aimed at participation in dogfighting - it's a fact.

So any group that's naturally larger is going to be aggressive, violent, and kill? Guessing you stay far away from Nordic countries. Sweden, Denmark, Holland, dangerous places huh? North Korea on the other hand, or China, super safe, look at how small those Asians are!

I stay out of black areas.

https://www.ktvu.com/news/pitbull-attacks-for-third-time-neighbors-call-for-dog-to-be-euthanized

The chief overpaid dog catcher insists she did the right thing by not euthanizing, the dog in the first place.

https://slaynews.com/news/family-releases-update-on-georgia-boy-mauled-by-pit-bulls-what-little-bit-justin-has-been-up-today-he-just-wanted-to-say-thank-you-to-everyone/

Family Gives Update on Georgia Boy Mauled by Pit Bulls: ‘He Just Wanted to Say Thank You to Everyone’

GNL says

1. Be expert dog trainers except there's no governing body to decide who can and who can't own these dogs.
2. Not believe that breeds have been bred for different purposes.

If you want to own a dog capable of killing someone, absolutely on number one. I don't require anyone else to know that I am personally responsible for my actions and mistakes. For those who do, your problems start there.

I don't believe I ever said anything close to number two. The disagreement here is you believe dogs have been bred to kill, I know they have only been trained to do so, regardless of their genetic capabilities.

The problem here isn't conflicting ideas, it's a knowledge gap. And a very common one from what I see in most dog owners.

NuttBoxer says

body builders are all mass killers, waiting to snap.

Agreed!

NuttBoxer says

GNL says

1. Be expert dog trainers except there's no governing body to decide who can and who can't own these dogs.
2. Not believe that breeds have been bred for different purposes.

If you want to own a dog capable of killing someone, absolutely on number one. I don't require anyone else to know that I am personally responsible for my actions and mistakes. For those who do, your problems start there.

I don't believe I ever said anything close to number two. The disagreement here is you believe dogs have been bred to kill, I know they have only been trained to do so, regardless of their genetic capabilities.

The problem here isn't conflicting ideas, it's a knowledge gap. And a very common one from what I see in most dog owners.

If you're going to compare dogs and guns, then we need dog registration, classes and rules/laws on where you can take them and how old you must be to own one. Seems fair, right?

GNL says

If you're going to compare dogs and guns, then we need dog registration, classes and rules/laws on where you can take them and how old you must be to own one. Seems fair, right?

I think a lot of that is already in place. But again, there's a big difference between something that is made to kill, a gun, and something that must be trained, or neglected to create the same affect, a dog.

The comparison rings true in that owning big dogs, and owning guns requires personal responsibility. The other part that is true, if you see a man with a big dog, or a gun, coming down the street, you assess your risk by the character of the man, not the dog or the gun.

NuttBoxer says

But again, there's a big difference between something that is made to kill, a gun, and something that must be trained, or neglected to create the same affect, a dog.

This is complete bullshit.

That's the kind of response I'd expect from a vaxhead. Goes to show you shouldn't judge them too harshly, as anytime you let emotion rule over logic, you will fall into the same pattern they do.

dangerous weapon

NuttBoxer says

if you see a man with a big dog, or a gun, coming down the street, you assess your risk by the character of the man, not the dog or the gun.

But that means that I would have to be judgmental and possibly racist.

RC2006 says

I stay out of black areas.

That has always been a good policy

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2023/02/24/watch-live-san-antonio-police-at-scene-of-serious-dog-attack-on-west-side/

SAN ANTONIO – A “horrific scene” unfolded on the West Side Friday afternoon after a brutal dog attack claimed an elderly man’s life and left three other people injured, officials said.

As of Friday night, San Antonio police confirmed one of the dogs’ owners has been arrested.

Christian Alexander Moreno, 31, is facing a felony charge of attack by dangerous dog causes death and a felony charge of injury to an elderly. ...

When San Antonio fire crews arrived at the scene, they saw an 81-year-old man being dragged on the sidewalk by one of the two dogs involved in the attack.

SAFD Chief Charles Hood said the man was “completely bloody” before crews made their way off of the fire truck.

“This is not something normal for us. We usually don’t show up and have to defend patients from animals or ourselves,” Hood said.

The dogs also confronted firefighters, who had to fight them off with pickaxes and pike poles so they could attend to the victims, Hood said.

One of the fire captains was bit in the leg, but is OK. The dogs also attacked a woman, who was critically injured and another person.

First comment in the comment section of that article...

"Pit bulls kill 10 or more babies per year in the USA.

Imagine a helpless baby screaming in agony and terror as a dog rips the facial flesh off, one piece at a time, and eats it. Then they break the jaw and rip out the baby's tongue. 5-10 minutes for baby to finally die of blood loss. This is why coroners don't like to release their reports on these cases, it's too sickening.

Pit bulls were bred in the 1700s to torture bulls in a fighting ring (pit bull).

In American in 2022, we allow these dogs to torture babies.

Congratulations to everyone."

Patrick says

Christian Alexander Moreno, 31, is facing a felony charge of attack by dangerous dog causes death and a felony charge of injury to an elderly. ...

Glad their charging the person responsible, but why isn't it at least manslaughter? If Christian is in this area, see's a gang-banger walk by, and puts his gun on the ground, the hood picks it up and kills the old man, is it really any different?

GNL says

Pit bulls kill 10 or more babies per year in the USA.

How many you think are murdered by their own mothers in abortion clinics? Killed in car accidents? Died after being injected with spike protein poison? From vaccinations? Die from abuse in the foster system? Have been killed in Ukraine or the Middle East? Die in satanic ritual sacrifices by pedophiles who occupy top positions in our government? In every case it's more than 10 a year. Most WAY more.

But let's focus on genetics, because obviously evil is bred, not taught. There are Satan factories where devil worshipers pop out like zits on a 16 year old. I mean that was the case for Dahmer, Bundy, etc right? No abuse in their past when they were children, they were just born evil.

By the way, if you push genetics as the reason for things, you are in the company of the woman who founded Planned Parenthood, and therefore share responsibility for the ideals that have killed more children than any of these abominations to date. You are a hypocrite, and part of the problem.

NuttBoxer says

How many you think are murdered by their own mothers in abortion clinics? Killed in car accidents? Died after being injected with spike protein poison? From vaccinations? Die from abuse in the foster system? Have been killed in Ukraine or the Middle East? Die in satanic ritual sacrifices by pedophiles who occupy top positions in our government? In every case it's more than 10 a year. Most WAY more.

Not wrong. Never had met a pit bull I'd "trust" around children though. Abortion, accidents, some vaccinations, etc are bad. There's no need for the breed of dog in modern times.

To be honest it's a small penis syndrome type thing. Like dudes getting F-350 trucks or something similar. Or a black thing. No logical person owns a dog that can kill people regardless of how well trained and good of an owner they are. It's an animal. Let me know when you want to pet my nice mountain lion and it decapitates you with one swipe. Great pet. That's a pit bull.

NuttBoxer says

GNL says

Pit bulls kill 10 or more babies per year in the USA.

How many you think are murdered by their own mothers in abortion clinics? Killed in car accidents? Died after being injected with spike protein poison? From vaccinations? Die from abuse in the foster system? Have been killed in Ukraine or the Middle East? Die in satanic ritual sacrifices by pedophiles who occupy top positions in our government? In every case it's more than 10 a year. Most WAY more.

But let's focus on genetics, because obviously evil is bred, not taught. There are Satan factories where devil worshipers pop out like zits on a 16 year old. I mean that was the case for Dahmer, Bundy, etc right? No abuse in their past when they were children, they were just born evil.

By the way, if you push genetics as the reason for things, you are in the company of the woman who founded Planne...

Pitbulls were created by man.

It's clear that we're going to disagree until the end of time on this subject and frankly the knowledge gaps makes any actual discussion on the topic impossible. I would rather posit a speculative question to everyone: what do you believe a "pitbull ban" would look like? Do you really believe pitbull owners are going to gladly give up their animals? Or are you going to need the government mafia to show up, breaking your door down with guns because your neighbor said they heard barking?

I don't really need to speculate, we have recent history on this.

In the cities some families kept them as pets, while in the countryside they were popular for guard duty, herding and food. They were routinely put down in communist-held areas during the civil war. Like everything else, the cull came in stages after liberation. In Beijing, a swoop cleared thousands of wild dogs from the streets, often with the support of local residents, as policemen armed with wire nooses on bamboo poles rounded them up. Then, by September 1949, dog owners were required to register their pets and keep the animals indoors. A year later the destruction of registered dogs started. Some of the animals were voluntarily turned in, but a few owners refused to surrender them. In a few cases the police were even confronted by angry dog keepers, who sometimes had the crowd on their side. The police then started breaking into houses. Owners came back home to find their doors broken down and their pets gone

Even though her roommates objected to the animal, Esther Cheo kept a small female dog in her dormitory, which she had taken in as a puppy. She shared all her food with it, and the dog was named Hsiao Mee, after the millet they ate. During the cull one of her colleagues who disliked dogs opened the door and let her out. The dog was soon caught and carried away, but, with the help of a high-ranking cadre, Esther managed to locate the compound where the animals were kept. ‘I walked up and down stumbling over dead and dying dogs, shouting out Hsiao Mee’s name, trying to drown out the barks and whines of hundreds of dogs. Eventually I found her. She was in a cage with several others. She jumped up and tried to lick my face, trembling with fear and perhaps excited, hoping that I had come to take her home. I could only sit there and stroke her.’ Esther came back to the compound regularly, even taking a pair of scissors to the dog’s coat in the hope that she would not be slaughtered for her skin. But in the end all she was allowed to do was to feed her pet some scraps of pork from the canteen and look on as the animal shivered and ate from the bowl in her mangled coat. Finally, with the help of a sympathetic cadre, Esther was given a pistol. She took off the safety catch, pressed the barrel against the dog’s ear and blew her head off.

Dogs were denounced as a threat to public hygiene and a symbol of bourgeois decadence at a time of food shortages. Except for those owned by a few privileged diplomats and top officials, they were soon cleared from the cities. But parts of the countryside continued to resist for several years. In Guangdong, efforts to impose a cull backfired in 1952, as angry villagers openly defied the authorities. Killing a landlord was one thing, but taking away a man’s dog was another matter altogether, as they protected homesteads, crops and livestock. In Shandong, where almost every family kept a dog, repeated culls also failed. In the end, however, even the countryside fell into line.

Maybe you should ask yourselves why a totalitarian government thought it was a worthwhile venture to spend time and resources on killing dogs in the name of "germs" especially right after disarming the citizens and before implementing horrifying policies like the One-Child policy.

https://anti-empire.com/forced-vaccinations-face-masks-cities-washed-in-poisons-the-maoist-anti-germ-frenzy-of-of-1952/

DhammaStep says

It's clear that we're going to disagree until the end of time on this subject and frankly the knowledge gaps makes any actual discussion on the topic impossible.

It's not impossible. I don't want government intervention as a semi libertarian for sure, but that's not the discussion. Just stop breeding them. There are other breeds that should be banned as well. There are also other breeds of dogs you can get.

Counterpoint. Should I be able to have a mountain lion, bear or tiger as a pet that could potentially get out? I'd imagine that's a resounding no unless you've got enclosures that are secure and inspected. Look at Turkey after that earthquake. They built buildings like shit and killed thousands, but you thought you could live in them.

A pitt bull can kill in a moment regardless of the owners training. Even if by the best pit bull trainer. Especially older pits where they go the equivalent of senile with old age. The training goes out the window and it's a 100lbs dog that could still rip your arm off. A dog like a yorkie will do the same. The bites would hurt, but it's not going to kill you. Probably more common honestly. It's the idea that an animal at any moment, unprovoked could kill you or someone else.

Another point, drug dogs. Super trained. They've gotten it wrong on me multiple times when I was in high school. I had fun Junior and Senior year in high school, but I got hit two times by the K-9 unit random search of the parking lot (illegal) at school. I never smoked in my car. I never even had a bag of weed in my car. This was the 90's. So these "super highly trained" dogs fucked it up, yet I'm expecting Dante and Shaquanda down the block to train their pit properly? Hells no.

Ok, if your illegal dog breed kills someone, then you're subject to lethal injection. As well as the person that sold you the dog. You'll also be responsible for health bills and pain and suffering. Can't pay, prison. Deal?

WookieMan says

It's not impossible

Sorry, but it is. I've already stated my stance that I don't consider pitbulls and similar breeds to be "pets" and you respond with the nonsense about bears and lions. The word "pet" evokes some strange comparision that they should be treated like goldfish or cats. I consider having large animals of any kind to be a full time responsibility. These are not animals you let your children hang out with alone. No responsible pitbull owner I've known has had children below the age of 14 before owning one and those teenagers must be trained themselves on dog ownership as well. Based on what you said about "Dante and Shaniqua" it's clear you're depending on some sort of government intervention to police human behavior, not animal behavior. What if I want to keep Dante and Shaniqua off my property when I'm not around? Is the government going to keep watch for me?

Should I be able to have a mountain lion, bear or tiger as a pet that could potentially get out? I'd imagine that's a resounding no unless you've got enclosures that are secure and inspected.

We have zoos that are "secure and inspected" and animals still get out. We don't ban zoos entirely because a small minority of animals escape, do we? The entire stance screams of "please don't let the bad things happen." Impossible, bad things will happen. Schools are shot up yearly and that's something we've learned to live with, isn't it?

Do I think people should be owning animals because of image or status symbols? No, I don't think you should even own a cat just because you think they're cute. Just like arms, animals are a responsibility. For clarity sake I will spell it out: pitbulls (and similar breeds) are territorial defense weapons and the need for defending your territory has not and will not change, ever.

GNL says

Ok, if your illegal dog breed kills someone, then you're subject to lethal injection. As well as the person that sold you the dog. You'll also be responsible for health bills and pain and suffering. Can't pay, prison. Deal?

I don't make deals with people that use propaganda and emotional appeals to take my rights away. Sorry.

DhammaStep says

For clarity sake I will spell it out: pitbulls (and similar breeds) are territorial defense weapons and the need for defending your territory has not and will not change, ever.

Defense of what? I live in the middle of nowhere. Never have remotely felt threatened. Where are these dogs needed as a territorial defense weapon?? Isn't that what a gun is for? I'm not relying on an animal to protect me that will eat a steak thrown their way as a treat when I rob you. Protection is on me as a man. I'm not following your logic.

If you're the F-350 guy that doesn't haul, tow or use it for anything that's productive, that's fine. The F-350 isn't going to just run me over though out of your control. A pit bull and similar breeds is all image like you're a tough guy. This really isn't a topic that's worth discussing, but I bit on it... like a pit bull. Get a gun and call it a day. Even trained aggressive dogs are easy to tame in 2 seconds. You're not stopping a thinking human with a shotgun.

WookieMan says

Defense of what?

This attitude is precisely why having a discussion about this is impossible. The entire world isn't like your Disney life. My cousin was raped by three men and they slit her throat, in her own house. Breaking and entering is illegal. Rape is illegal. Murder is illegal. Would a pitbull have been an additional deterrent? You better believe it. Would even a single bark in the night given her enough time to wake up and arm herself? Maybe. We'll never know now. Or in your imagination, these scumbags are carrying around steaks in their back pocket when they're feeling rapey? Shooting the dog itself would make enough noise to alert the neighborhood, or are they carrying shotgun silencers too?

You talk about "tough guy image" and "small dick energy" because you believe your experience and viewpoint is the only correct one. This is ego speaking, not logic. Not facts. Not truth.