patrick.net

J.D. Vance's Incoherent Argument for Higher Minimum Wages

Jun 14, 2024 | 7:40 AM

In an interview published this week by The New York Times, Sen. J.D. Vance (R–Ohio) calls for a more muscular federal government to intervene even more aggressively in the economy than it already does, to create what Vance calls "incentives" for American workers. In doing so, Vance inadvertently reveals one of the major flaws in this line of analysis.
Vance's opinions about these things carry significant weight, in no small part because he's on the shortlist to be Donald Trump's running mate. With an eye towards that possibility, the Times' Ross Douthat asked Vance to explain his "populist economic agenda." Here is part of the senator's response (emphasis mine):

The populist vision, at least as it exists in my head, is an inversion of [the postwar American order of globalization]: applying as much upward pressure on wages and as much downward pressure on the services that the people use as possible. We've had far too little innovation over the last 40 years, and far too much labor substitution. This is why I think the economics profession is fundamentally wrong about both immigration and about tariffs. Yes, tariffs can apply upward pricing pressure on various things—though I think it's massively overstated—but when you are forced to do more with your domestic labor force, you have all of these positive dynamic effects.
It's a classic formulation: You raise the minimum wage to $20 an hour, and you will sometimes hear libertarians say this is a bad thing. "Well, isn't McDonald's just going to replace some of the workers with kiosks?" That's a good thing, because then the workers who are still there are going to make higher wages; the kiosks will perform a useful function; and that's the kind of rising tide that actually lifts all boats. What is not good is you replace the McDonald's worker from Middletown, Ohio, who makes $17 an hour with an immigrant who makes $15 an hour. And that is, I think, the main thrust of elite liberalism, whether people acknowledge it or not.

The basic fallacy here is one that President Joe Biden, former President Donald Trump, and plenty of other politicians make regularly: They talk as though America is made up of one group of people who are "workers" and another group who are "consumers."
If this was so, you could focus on policies that raise wages for one group—the workers—at the expense of the other. But since most people are sometimes a worker and other times a consumer, policies that artificially apply "upward pressure on wages" also apply upward pressure on the prices consumers pay (because those wages have to come from somewhere). If you want to see how this plays out in reality, just look at California's experience with a $20 minimum wage. Prices have skyrocketed and jobs are being lost.
Pitting the two fictional camps of workers and consumers against one another might be a clever electoral strategy, but it's not the basis for sound economic policy.
There is another, deeper problem with Vance's argument here. In the second section I highlighted above, he argues that there's nothing wrong if a job is automated away after the government mandates a higher minimum wage, because the workers who get to keep their jobs will earn more. But if your job is lost due to market forces—because someone else is willing to do the same work for less—that's a problem he implies the government has a role in solving.
Taken together, those two premises effectively absolve the state from being blamed for the inevitable negative side effects of its interventions in the economy. Think about the two scenarios Vance lays out. In both, a worker has lost a job. If a centrally planned wage mandate is the cause, Vance says that's actually good because it means the remaining workers will earn more and be more productive.
Kudos to him for recognizing that automation isn't something to be feared or banned—not every populist gets that. Even so, the fact that automation can help make some McDonald's workers worth $20 per hour is likely to be little comfort to the worker who would have been willing to earn $17 per hour but is now out of a job because of a government mandate. For that matter, even though automation is a natural market response to artificially higher wages, it's not clear that the trade-off is an economically beneficial one. If it were, why shouldn't Vance want a $100 per hour minimum wage?

Meanwhile, Vance is worried about that same guy being replaced by a different worker who is willing to do the same job for $15 per hour. (That scenario, you'll note, is tinged with xenophobia. Why can't the wage competition come from another native-born American worker willing to do the job for $15 an hour?)
That seems pretty incoherent, but I think Vance is trying to play a clever game here. He's arguing that job losses (or other negative economic consequences) due to well-intentioned governmental interventions should be ignored, and the focus should be on how workers benefit from those interventions.
If you're someone who favors greater governmental intervention in the economy, as Vance does, this is exactly the framework you'd like to work within. Sure, a higher minimum wage means some workers lose their jobs and consumers pay more, but other workers earn fatter checks. Sure, cutting off immigration would probably make inflation worse, but it would protect some workers from wage competition. Sure, dumping tons of tax money on politically favored businesses and industries means higher taxes or borrowing costs foisted on everyone, but look at the shiny new semiconductor factory and the jobs created.
There's nothing new about this line of thinking. Vance is simply adding a more conservative-coded twist to the same tired arguments that progressives and other advocates for big government have used for years. In either case, the argument rests on the premise that government officials know exactly what levers to pull and what "incentives" to offer. Is a $20 per hour wage enough or should it be higher? How many factories does this town or state need? Which jobs are important enough to protect? Conservatives used to have enough humility to recognize that government officials won't have the answers to all those questions.
In place of that humility, Vance and other right-wing populists are substituting a different idea: that when the government inevitably makes mistakes while picking winners and losers, we should simply ignore the costs and focus only on the benefits.

-- Eric Boehm

$20 minimum wage is what Newscum implemented in CA, isn't it?

All you need to know about Vance, he's Thiel's protege. And if you don't know why that's bad, I can't help you.

All hail the coming technocracy!!

NuttBoxer says

All you need to know about Vance, he's Thiel's protege. And if you don't know why that's bad, I can't help you.

All hail the coming technocracy!!

They are always someone's protege or depending in someone's donations or arrme/were member of some club you may not like. It's politics, your next door neighbor, backed by nobody, doesn't suddenly become president. Bring it on, we can run the scorecard when they are actually governing the country instead of disqualifying them instantly

What the fuck are you talking about? You can look at his fucking voting record right now. I'll save you the suspense, it won't be good. Only politician who ever voted for the people in our lifetime, Ron Paul. And it's not "someone's", it's fucking DOD Peter Thiel. LifeLog.. err Facebook Peter Thiel. Palantir Peter Thiel. You want some creepy shit, look at Palantir, the name origin, and their biggest clients.

Next you'll go on about the lesser of two evils...

And a lot of effort to distract from Biden - Harris admin's open border and welfare state

For starters, Medicaid for at least the last 2 years has spent at least $150 billion more than the Pentagon. How much is that due to Biden's open border of allowing anyone in who asks for asylum ?

Harris is the Open Border Czar. They'll try to "remake" her over the next 4 weeks, and if it starts to go dismal than we'll gradually hear the Democrat's will have an open convention.

Follow how public the Obama's and Clinton's embrace and support Harris.

The mainstream media (and major campaign finance's) will be mostly focused on that, not on the Congressional Black Caucus.

Not sure who is better pick ? Maybe Hilary Clinton again ? Or that dolt governor from Kentucky or Shapiro from Pennsylvania ?

Newsom can't rely on looks to help him cover up his state's decay and failures.

.

NuttBoxer says

What the fuck are you talking about? You can look at his fucking voting record right now. I'll save you the suspense, it won't be good. Only politician who ever voted for the people in our lifetime, Ron Paul. And it's not "someone's", it's fucking DOD Peter Thiel. LifeLog.. err Facebook Peter Thiel. Palantir Peter Thiel. You want some creepy shit, look at Palantir, the name origin, and their biggest clients.

Next you'll go on about the lesser of two evils...

Ooohhh Peter Thiel, Palantir! Palantir! You sound like a leftoid complaining that they assisted ICE which really can use all the assistance it needs. What about jd vance's voting record? Patriot act? Against! Check. Why don't you come up.with a concrete example of voting failures instead of name mysticism and vague hints. This is how nothing ever gets done and the left will install their next commie puppet, because Tulsi was in the WEF and Peter backs Palantir!

The anti JD Vance shit is hilarious. "He's fake, he went to Yale", even though he's been a higher-ed basher and backing words with votes and amendments, and the Teachers and EduAdmins piss their pants at the sight of him. And he's 100% on MAGA economics of reindustrializing America.

They "forget" to mention - after all their deep dig trying to prove he's awful - that he converted to Catholicism in 2019 and is a member of a Trad Catholic Men's Group and is a Yarvin reader.

Everybody knows why a tiny contingent of FakeRight and their useful idiots hates his guts.

And Thiel was the first Trump endorser to defect from Silly Con Valley and the Investment World. Now they are bailing like crazy, recently Ackman and Musk.

Don't trust the FakeFed "Right".

"I'm only recently being skeptical of Trump" - FakeFed Right.

No, they hated Trump from their first video years ago.


From Day One, a Trump basher, now a sneaky Trump Basher. But always grifting. Just now he cashes the checks from some other organization.

I bring the sauce always, Bitchez.

When you bring mental case Ye, leading him by the hand to Trump, so he can delulu ask Trump to be HIS running mate, in front of tipped off MSM cameras - That ain't no accident.

He better find his Daddy Bear because the hair is receeding and the fast food diet is starting to take away his abs.: The Wall Comes For Them All.

mell says

Ooohhh Peter Thiel, Palantir! Palantir! You sound like a leftoid complaining that they assisted ICE which really can use all the assistance it needs. What about jd vance's voting record? Patriot act? Against! Check. Why don't you come up.with a concrete example of voting failures instead of name mysticism and vague hints. This is how nothing ever gets done and the left will install their next commie puppet, because Tulsi was in the WEF and Peter backs Palantir!

And there it is. Your insistence on clinging to a dead system, and refusal to acknowledge the deep state, that even MSM now admits to means you will never do anything of consequence during SELECTION cycles, as you continue to waste time and energy pretending supporting corruption makes a difference. You only look at ICE, and ignore the obvious implications for when they turn it on you. You willing build the cage, never supposing you'll be on the inside when the door slams shut. Yes, this last is supposition, but it's based on governments history of abusing power that goes back to the beginning of time.

On the voting record:
* Voted to continue using US Army to build a pier that wasted millions in Gaza, check
* Voted against giving funds to border protection, check
* CO-SPONSORED bill to give a trillion dollars to Israel, and send US military to Middle East, check

And as I said, ties to DOD, DARPA, and the coming technocracy, mother-fucking CHECK.

NuttBoxer says

Voted against giving funds to border protection, check

Which one are you talking a out? The "bipartisan pork belly" bill in which funds for the border were tied to many more billions wasted in the Ukraine? I don't see any votes against border funding, and the one above certainly was not a border funding bill.

This seems like weak sauce, but ok. Nobody's perfect, if you don't like Israel and its ties to the US, maybe there's a point for you not to like him. Still miles better than anyone else. Certainly not an establishment guy just because he's pro Israel. Some people identify more strongly with their Judeo-Christian roots than others

NuttBoxer says

And there it is.

NuttBoxer says

On the voting record:
* Voted to continue using US Army to build a pier that wasted millions in Gaza, check
* Voted against giving funds to border protection, check
* CO-SPONSORED bill to give a trillion dollars to Israel, and send US military to Middle East, check

And there it is, Israhell.

Now let's move to the middle complaint, which isn't the real complaint, but address it anyway:

That border bill was another shamnesty that would have given millions of illegals citizenship today, in return for a few bucks for 'enhanced border security' tomorrow with no control over the policy of that "Border Security". IE Biden and Kamala and Obama would leave the border wide open but buy a few high tech boondoggles to friendly companies to make it look all security-ish. Trump called out that bill for what it was. And it was defeated because of the MAGA contingent

From the propagandists own mouth:
https://democrats.org/news/fact-check-just-like-jd-vance-mike-johnson-tanked-the-bipartisan-border-deal-at-trumps-command/

Here's Democrat Chris Murphy with the same BS:
https://www.murphy.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/murphy-announces-reintroduction-of-bipartisan-border-bill-my-hope-is-that-republicans-will-choose-this-country-over-donald-trumps-campaign

The only Republican Senate members that pushed it forward: Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, Mitt Romney, and James Lankford

Good for Vance for not supporting it.

Get off the FakeFed Right baloney train, they are literally repeating Democrat/RINO propaganda.

mell says

Which one are you talking a out? The "bipartisan pork belly" bill in which funds for the border were tied to many more billions wasted in the Ukraine? I don't see any votes against border funding, and the one above certainly was not a border funding bill.

This seems like weak sauce, but ok. Nobody's perfect, if you don't like Israel and its ties to the US, maybe there's a point for you not to like him. Still miles better than anyone else. Certainly not an establishment guy just because he's pro Israel. Some people identify more strongly with their Judeo-Christian roots than others

Look at the voting record, it was emergency funds, all for the border and fentanyl. Interestingly, Vance has a very short voting record, so he's mostly an unknown. UNLESS you look at what he did before politics, but seems you won't touch that with a ten foot pole.

Miles better === lesser of two evils, thanks for that trope. Yes, I meant triple equality(JS).

As to the last, Israel the state is a Zionist terrorist organization. Has shit to do with religion. But if you'd bothered to read any of the many, many links I've posted on this subject, you'd know that...

Peter Thiel's not creepy at all...

They've tracked every phone call, every text and every Google search you've ever made which is included in this database that is now being used by a private company and billionaire Peter Theil.

Full Interview Here: https://t.co/xNi13eJlT3 pic.twitter.com/nqzzKBgSqH

— The Last American Vagabond (@TLAVagabond) July 22, 2024

When you suffer from Zionist derangement syndrome as per above, it is only a matter of time before everyone starts to look like a Zionist.

That being said we knew from Trumps bumpstock ban that he is a big government tool. He also gave big pharma a huge payday with no accountability in operation warp speed. JD Vance would be just like Trump, only more extreme in his big government tendencies as he has only started to feel the high of big government reigns of power. Still, he is much safer choice than Harris who doesn’t believe in personal accountability except for her enemies.

80% of longtime Republican Congressional Staffers and Aides, and professional Lobbyists dislike Vance.



He must be an excellent choice.

AmericanKulak says

80% of longtime Republican Congressional Staffers and Aides, and professional Lobbyists dislike Vance.



He must be an excellent choice.

Of course they do.

NuttBoxer says

As to the last, Israel the state is a Zionist terrorist organization. Has shit to do with religion. But if you'd bothered to read any of the many, many links I've posted on this subject, you'd know that...

This is unmitigated bs. The Israelis love their country like most citizens of others countries do and they have all similar ambitions for their people. It's fine to disagree with Israels territorial or foreign policy, as it is to disagree with Russia's, Ukraine's or the USs, but spouting antifa tropes is not worthy of any discussion.

mell says

This is unmitigated bs. The Israelis love their country like most citizens of others countries do and they have all similar ambitions for their people.

Explain all the videos I've posted of Jews protesting the Zionist state. They're far easier to find than Palestinian videos of the same. Also see the videos of Zionist state police beating Israeli's(I've posted more than one).

You have no sources outside your opinion, I've posted MANY. Lies are harder to support than the truth. Shill for your real country somewhere else, Massie and myself aren't interested.

NuttBoxer says

mell says

This is unmitigated bs. The Israelis love their country like most citizens of others countries do and they have all similar ambitions for their people.

They're far easier to find than Palestinian videos of the same.

You’re expecting people to sign their own death warrant?

No idea what you're saying..

NuttBoxer says

mell says

This is unmitigated bs. The Israelis love their country like most citizens of others countries do and they have all similar ambitions for their people.

Explain all the videos I've posted of Jews protesting the Zionist state. They're far easier to find than Palestinian videos of the same. Also see the videos of Zionist state police beating Israeli's(I've posted more than one).

You have no sources outside your opinion, I've posted MANY. Lies are harder to support than the truth. Shill for your real country somewhere else, Massie and myself aren't interested.

Massie never said anything remotely akin to Israel is state sponsored terrorism, he is simply an America first guy which is great. The fact of the matter is that if Israel is left to fight on its own - which I have no problem with - they will eventually level what you call Palestine, simply by defending themselves against forces larger in numbers, but lower in military technology. Every other country would do the same thing to survive. This conflict is far too old and complex for simplistic leftoid antifa tropes.

FuckTheMainstreamMedia says

NuttBoxer says

mell says

This is unmitigated bs. The Israelis love their country like most citizens of others countries do and they have all similar ambitions for their people.

They're far easier to find than Palestinian videos of the same.

You’re expecting people to sign their own death warrant?

Yep. Also every democratic country has people protesting their own wars, nothing special. It's called freedom of speech/expression.

mell says

they will eventually level what you call Palestine

Eventually, it's done. Your Zionist terrorism sympathizing has you blind to reality. You're now ready to report on the Mostly peaceful protests, just like the leftoids you despise. I despise all of you, because you're all against America by supporting corrupt evil governments.

Fuck the leftists who advocated violence a few years ago, fuck you who advocates violence today. You're all the same, suck on that dick, and swallow the jizz you've earned with your Israeli government fellatio.

You didn't fall for the Scamdemic or Ukraine, but Israel's propaganda is balls deep in your rectum.

mell says

Yep. Also every democratic country has people protesting their own wars, nothing special. It's called freedom of speech/expression.

Gotcha. More Holocaust supporters. Kill the babies, as long as their Palestinian, anything to save the STATE of Israel!! I don't know how you guys can live with yourselves, you fucking disgust me.

mell says

This conflict is far too old and complex for simplistic leftoid antifa tropes.

Alot of it goes back to the Sykes-Picot agreement and the French funding Arab bandits to push the British out of the former Sanjaks (Counties) of Greater Syria in the Mandate. I just learned about the Tagard line, which was built in the 1920s along what is mostly the Lebanese-Israeli border today, meant to inhibit crossings by Arabs from French-controlled Syria-Lebanon. The French training of Arabs due to the last breaths of colonial rivalry contributed at least a little to things.

I didn't learn this until I happened across it in a book about Ordo Wingate despite reading a couple of Arabsimp books by Brits and many proZionist histories; I guarantee "Last non-American Vagabound" and Pablo Escobar or Isfake Shamir write about it in RT or whatever front rag they write for. It doesn't help the Watermelons for people to find out the French sponsored the first Arab raiders in the Mandate.

fdhfoiehfeoi says

Fuck the leftists who advocated violence a few years ago, fuck you who advocates violence today. You're all the same, suck on that dick, and swallow the jizz you've earned with your Israeli government fellatio.

Right, it was Israel that broke a Ceasefire without cause to send men on paragliders and pickup trucks into Khan Yunis to murder people in a small village and a Rave on a holiday morning, and took 100s of Palestinians hostages.

Don't mess with the Khazarian Warriors, pictured here under Khan Oivey of the Putz-Klutz Ordo, circa 1000AD. Credit; Byzantium News Service, Alexios Atreides III)

fdhfoiehfeoi says

You didn't fall for the Scamdemic or Ukraine, but Israel's propaganda is balls deep in your rectum.

Having a differentiated view and educating yourself before yelling tropes is the opposite. I am against monetary aid for Israel, similar to Ukraine.

They are not asking for more money at this point, just understanding their point of view as they continue to fight. You would have to actively wage war against Israel to stop them, so you're an intervention interventionist who is clearly picking sides.

A non interventionist America first person would stay out of it regardless of the outcome. I only told you what might happen in such a scenario of there are no efforts made to keep them at the table. Even the Ukraine conflict is complex and no involved party is entirely guiltless here.

AmericanKulak says

fdhfoiehfeoi says

Fuck the leftists who advocated violence a few years ago, fuck you who advocates violence today. You're all the same, suck on that dick, and swallow the jizz you've earned with your Israeli government fellatio.

Right, it was Israel that broke a Ceasefire without cause to send men on paragliders and pickup trucks into Khan Yunis to murder people in a small village and a Rave on a holiday morning, and took 100s of Palestinians hostages.

Yep, and just like that, context doesn't matter anymore. Satanyahu, Satanyahu!!! REEEEEEeeeeee!!

fdhfoiehfeoi says

mell says

Yep. Also every democratic country has people protesting their own wars, nothing special. It's called freedom of speech/expression.

Gotcha. More Holocaust supporters. Kill the babies, as long as their Palestinian, anything to save the STATE of Israel!! I don't know how you guys can live with yourselves, you fucking disgust me.

This makes no sense, I only pointed out that there are also plenty of Israelis and Jews who support the Israeli govt, at least in defending their territory, even many expats have friends and family they care for.

Also if at all it's railing people hopelessly against each other and falling for this division is.the gullible state of mind. Even in the scamdemic there were people who acted poorly out of ignorance or fear, not evil schemes.

You can choose to bring people, even nutjob leftoids (and yes we pack plenty of fun and punches/resistance against modern leftism, but no blind hate), back to the table, redeem and forgive, or not. This is what Patrick's site is all about.

fdhfoiehfeoi says

I don't know how you guys can live with yourselves, you fucking disgust me.

You could ignore everyone.

PatNet is cool in that it is a microcosm of what's going on in TRW. In a way, it's like a refinery. Heat up the pot, and the lit gaseous libtards evaporate first. Next it's the mainstream liberals chanting the Rodney King mantra. Now it's the fake "I was conservative before it was cool" crowd boiling off. Eventually we'll be left with the bitumen - the "based."

stereotomy says

PatNet is cool in that it is a microcosm of what's going on in TRW. In a way, it's like a refinery. Heat up the pot, and the lit gaseous libtards evaporate first. Next it's the mainstream liberals chanting the Rodney King mantra. Now it's the fake "I was conservative before it was cool" crowd boiling off. Eventually we'll be left with the bitumen - the "based."

With one exception: We are male GenXers for the most part. That is its own bubble.

https://yuribezmenov.substack.com/p/jd-vance-the-hillbilly-apprentice-trump-vp

The most important job of a leader is to set up a strong succession plan. Trump is the indefatigable disrupter who has rammed open the gates for operators to drain the swamp and right the ship. At exactly half Trump’s age, JD is the greatest possible successor and assassination insurance. He is the second middle finger to the establishment. Like Trump, the game was rigged against him being anywhere near institutional power. Uniparty policies would have kept JD in poverty at a minimum, or dead from forever wars and CCP/cartel/Sackler opioids at a maximum. Judge a man by his enemies and who he follows on Twitter. JD has all the right ones. Neocon warmongers, woke leftists, and corporate media are all melting down about him which are ringing endorsements. I interviewed two of his notorious anon Twitter follows: Raw Egg and Lomez. Vance Derangement Syndrome is the new Trump Derangement Syndrome.




JD is already head and shoulders above every VP of the new millennium: Warmonger Dick Cheney, Swamp Creature Joe Biden, Neocon Judas Mike Pence, and DEI Commissar Kamala Harris. JD and Kamala are the ultimate contrast between American meritocracy and Marxist DIE. She was born into privilege with two professor parents, slept with a man twice her age to advance her career, and rose up to the apex of the DIE commissar ranks when Biden selected her for VP solely because her race and gender. DIE means that she is oppressed, while Vance is privileged. The entire DIE system is set up to prevent boys like JD from ever getting into Yale, while girls like Kamala receive sinecures and promotions through affirmative action and DIE hiring. For every 10 Kamalas on a Demorallized DIEvy League campus, there is one JD.

We were robbed of an epic debate:

https://nationalfile.com/j-d-vance-doubles-down-on-accurate-comments-on-democrat-cat-ladies-it-is-true/

Last Updated on July 28, 2024

Republican vice presidential candidate J.D. Vance doubled down on his totally accurate comments about how America should not be ruled by childless cat ladies who wish to inflict suffering on others to compensate for their own emotional emptiness.
“We are effectively run in this country via the Democrats, via our corporate oligarchs, by a bunch of childless cat ladies who are miserable at their own lives and the choices that they’ve made, so they want to make of the country miserable too,” Vance said in a 2021 Tucker Carlson interview.

Vance pinpointed a big problem in society that most young people and certainly all service workers have faced: the hostility of angry self-righteous liberal women who look and sound like Rachel Maddow. Notably, the “Karen” phenomenon has become a big part of American culture, referring to women who complain all the time and try to call the cops and get people in trouble for no reason. There is obviously a lot of overlap between Karens and cat ladies.

https://dee746.substack.com/p/jd-vance-workers-refusing-vaccine

“I see the fact that so many workers are refusing these vaccine mandates as a good thing. It suggests there’s some fight in the American people. That they are not willing to accept these vaccine mandates and are pushing back against it.

That’s a GOOD THING at the end of the day.

“It wasn’t about public health, it wasn’t about protecting people, it was really about showing that they were virtuous and unfortunately, that’s continued.

As long as Vance keeps telling the truth like this, I will be 100% supportive of Vance.

But the very moment he so much as suggests that anyone should get any injection, FUCK HIM and I'll be 100% for his immediate hanging.