patrick.net

Silver based currency, with payment of wages and small contracts mandated in metallic coins (no paper, either public/government OR private bank banknotes)

Has to be or the rich hoard the coins and metal while giving out paper.

https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/the-road-back-from-serfdom

clambo says

Savers lost a ton of dough

Savers always lose money if they store their wealth in government-issued currency. Government-issued currency is not intended to be a wealth storage vehicle. It's intended use is to facilitate the exchange of goods and services. Metal is a crappy medium for the exchange of goods and services. Currency inflation is purposeful and discourages the use of currency as a storage vehicle. Inflation is a feature, not a bug. If you want silver and gold, just buy silver and gold, but blaming the government for a poor investment strategy is just silly.

Why on earth would anyone want to store their wealth in a government issued currency?

Currency savers lose money. Investors make money. Try investing rather than saving currency.

People who store their wealth in currency are, in reality, seeking nanny-state government protection from exposure to free markets. If you expect the government to protect and grow your wealth, prepare to be disappointed 😛.

Nomograph says

It's intended use is to facilitate the exchange of goods and services

No, it's intended to rob you blind. This has always been the purpose of central banking cartels.

Nomograph says

Try investing rather than saving currency.

Examples of inflation resistant investments please. Because I know you aren't telling them to take paper and purchase other paper, all valued in the same depreciating asset.

NuttBoxer says

Examples of inflation resistant investments please.

I'm pretty sure $100 invested in AAPL, GOOG, NFLX, TSLA, NVDA, AMZN and such 10-15 years ago has beaten inflation even with taxes taken into account. Heck, even plain old boring S&P index fund did that, so no stock-picking prowess or luck necessary.

What value do precious metals actually have? Not much!

Trying To Trade 1 oz Gold Coin (worth $1800 at the time of the video's filming) for Worthless Random Stuff



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_x8VswuLwU

RayAmerica says

What value do precious metals actually have? Not much!

Trying To Trade 1 oz Gold Coin (worth $1800 at the time of the video's filming) for Worthless Random Stuff

Yawn: I was offered a massive "gold" ring on the side of the road for mere $200 because the dude allegedly ran out if gas and left his wallet at home.

I offered to call AAA for him using my phone instead of taking his hard-earned gold for such little money but for some reason he declined. I wonder why.

PS. This was all the rage in Balkans and the rest of Eastern Europe in the early 90s, but cell phones were not really a thing yet.

RWSGFY says

Yawn

So you think it is a 'yawn' that uneducated people turn down a Canadian Maple Leaf 1oz. of Gold for meaningless, worthless junk, and it's done right outside a coin shop that deals in precious metals? Is that what you are saying?

RayAmerica says

RWSGFY says

Yawn

So you think it is a 'yawn' that uneducated people turn down a Canadian Maple Leaf 1oz. of Gold for meaningless, worthless junk, and it done right outside a coin shop that deals in precious metals? Is that what you are saying?

People simply don't believe it's real and suspect it's a scam. Are you familiar with "too good to be true" concept? They are.

Heck, if somebody on the street offered me $1000 in $100 bills for some worthless junk I'd most probably decline and put as much distance between me and them as possible in a dignified way.

Here's a sutuation for you: you're walking down the street and see a fat wallet lying on the pavement. Another guy walking in the same direction also notices it, picks it up, opens it and finds a thick wad of what seems to be $100s. There is no ID or CCs in the wallet so there is zero chance of finding the rightful owner. He then says that since you both were there it's only fair if you split it in the middle and proposes to get off the street to count and split the money.How would you react? Would you consider it a great stroke of luck and take the money? No? Why not?

Better yet, would you buy that huge gold ring for measly $200 from that "stranded" guy I mentioned earlier?

RWSGFY says

People simply don't believe it's real and suspect it's a scam. Are you familiar with "too good to be true" concept? They are.

Except for the fact that Dice was standing in front of a coin shop that deals in precious metals and told people that they could go inside the store and have the coin checked for its authenticity.

NuttBoxer says

No, it's intended to rob you blind. This has always been the purpose of central banking cartels.

I'm confused now. How does, say, a dollar bill "rob me blind." HINT: It doesn't. If you stuff your dollar bills in a mattress for years while knowing their value slowly lessens, you have robbed yourself. Government-issued currency is just a convenient medium to facilitate the exchange of goods and services and inflation insures that it is used primarily for that purpose.

Do you really think it's the government job to grow your wealth and keep it safe for you?

RWSGFY says

I'm pretty sure $100 invested in AAPL, GOOG, NFLX, TSLA, NVDA, AMZN and such 10-15 years ago has beaten inflation

This. But some folks seem more interested in playing victim than in building wealth.

Patrick says

The important thing is to value currency by weight of pure silver

Why is that important? My opinion is that tying currency to silver is, in fact, completely unimportant. This is evidenced by the fact that it hasn't been tied to any metal for over half a century and our economy has been more robust and stable than ever.

The U.S. dollar is tied to the economic output and outlook of the U.S., which is more meaningful imo. If the U.S. dollar was tied to silver, then it's value is based on global demand for silver and we lose control over the value of our currency. It would become unpredictable and volatile. Our economic output is much more stable and predictable, and hence so is the dollar.

Furthermore, low-level inflation prevents deflation. Currency deflation is one of the worst conditions for an economy because it discourages investing and encourages currency hoarding. The velocity of the currency (i.e. the number of times it changes hands pur unit time) slows to a crawl and the economy stagnates. People spend only what they absolutely need to because that dollar will be worth more tomorrow. The economy slumps, debt servicing becomes onerous, businesses fail, and people lose jobs.

That is what happens when people save and currency-hoard rather than invest. Hoarding currency is a practice to be discouraged whether said currency is tied to silver or to economic output.

@Patrick, I would like to hear why you think that tying currency to metal is a good practice. Do you wish to store your wealth in a government-issued currency rather than in free-market investments? Why would you want the government to be involved in your personal finances any more than is necessary? Why not just buy silver if you want to own silver?

Nomograph says

Do you wish to store your wealth in a government-issued currency rather than in free-market investments?

I suppose I can talk about my own case. I would ballpark my net worth at around $10MM. Over the years I have invested in real estate, stocks, and private companies e.g. startup equity.

At any given time, I may have $10,000- $20,000 in cash in the bank as money flows in and flows out. Sometimes it accumulates and when that happens I move it over to an investment account to ensure that I am not storing my wealth in the form of currency, and only use it to facilitate the exchange of good and services, and to service any debt.

Thus, at any given time I have about 0.15% of my accumulated wealth in the form of currency, and that is solely for convenience. I don't give a crap if that pittance is tied to a shiny metal. I just want it to be fast, easy, and reasonably stable, and the U.S. dollar ticks all those boxes ✅

NuttBoxer says

No, it's intended to rob you blind. This has always been the purpose of central banking cartels.

Fear of loss is one of the hallmarks of a scarcity mindset. Fear of loss, feeling victimized and powerless, hoarding, excessive worrying, zero-sum thinking, etc.

I would posit that the real problem for many folks is not a fiat currency, but a scarcity mindset. It is completely possible to overcome this and shift to a mindset of abundance. It takes self-understand and a willingness to do the work required for growth. Simple but not easy.

With a mindset of abundance, feelings of powerlessness and victimization are replaced with empowerment and personal responsibility. When one accepts responsibility for their situation, they become empowered to change it. An outlook of opportunity, possibility, growth, confidence, and optimism takes hold.

How much time do Elon Musk, or Donald Trump, or Jeff Bezos, or Meg Whitman, or Larry Ellison, or Warren Buffet, or Charles Koch spend wishing for a silver-backed currency? Prolly not much 😉

Nomograph says

With a mindset of abundance, feelings of powerlessness and victimization are replaced with empowerment and personal responsibility. When one accepts responsibility for their situation, they become empowered to change it. An outlook of opportunity, possibility, growth, confidence, and optimism takes hold.

Is abundance the normal state of food and resources for humanity across time?

Is it absolutely guaranteed to continue?

Sure, there is excess worry, but saving for a few weeks of food and essentials is wisdom. Since the invention of Agriculture about 8000 BPY, it was necessary in most places to survive the winter season.

AmericanKulak says

Sure, there is excess worry, but saving for a few weeks of food and essentials is wisdom.

Having some canned food and dried rations in case of a flood or earthquake is not what I'm talking about, obviously 🙄. I have an emergency store, complete with weapons and ammo, but I honestly never think much about it.

Expecting the government to provide a free place to store your wealth, completely sheltered from the ravages of the free market, is unrealistic. Feeling victimized because the government does not care for and grow your wealth for you seems childish to me. If you don't like fiat dollars, just buy silver. Man up. How much time did Marcus Aurelius spend crying for nanny-state government protection? HINT: none.

This isn't medieval Europe, Kulak. We have a level of opportunity that previous generations couldn't have dreamed of. It's a shame to see folks squander it by wallowing in a mindset of scarcity and victimhood. The world is our collective oyster and t's possible for just about anyone in the western world to go out and not only seek, but find their pearl.

Nomograph says

I suppose I can talk about my own case. I would ballpark my net worth at around $10MM. Over the years I have invested in real estate, stocks, and private companies e.g. startup equity.

Just curious. Why did you feel the need to tell us the amount of your net worth in order to drive home your point?

Nomograph says

This isn't medieval Europe, Kulak. We have a level of opportunity that previous generations couldn't have dreamed of.

Reminds me of the exact same common mindset that was acted out in abundance just prior to the Wall Street Crash of 1929. Of course, that, along with real estate crashing, could never happen again, right? And what could possibly go wrong with the value of the Dollar when we are now approaching $35 Trillion in our official National Debt, along with another $120+ Trillion in off budget obligations. And please, don't even think about the $625+ Trillion in dollar denominated Derivatives.

Opportunities abound, and there is absolutely nothing to be concerned about.

Nomograph says

This isn't medieval Europe, Kulak. We have a level of opportunity that previous generations couldn't have dreamed of. It's a shame to see folks squander it by wallowing in a mindset of scarcity and victimhood. The world is our collective oyster and t's possible for just about anyone in the western world to go out and not only seek, but find their pearl.

I think excessive optimism and magic thinking is just as bad as excessive pessimism and dooming.

Most major social metrics - crime, addiction, mental health, illegit births, marriage/divorce rates - has been worsening since the 60s and 70s. GDP growth slowed, Wages have been flat since the 70s for the average American, health care more expensive, college education has skyrocketed higher than the rate of inflation for decades despite major cost-cutting developments like computing, remote learning, electronic quiz grading, PDFs, the cost of lab and science equipment plunging while increasing dramatically in features.

We have immigration levels of unskilled immigrants like it's 1910 and GNP is growing by 7% YoY, we don't invest in our own youth or workers. Corporations are appalled at the idea of having to train a good candidate for a few weeks.

And for sure, the $35T in Debt with nothing much in the way of new infrastructure to show for it.

But worst of all I think is Self-Actualization and Self-Help. It's causing leadership to be focused on being famous and retiring at 45, rather than a deeper sense of professionalism, dedication, and care. "Fuck it, by the time they figured out how we jerryrigged everything for the next few quarters, we'll be long since gone with the bonus we'll get!" For the "common clay", it makes everybody not appreciate what they have and accept shitty deals in the hopes of actualizing their way into a total different situation.

RayAmerica says

ust curious. Why did you feel the need to tell us the amount of your net worth in order to drive home your point?

Because it's an actual example and not a hypothetical.

To address your real point, 10MM is within reach of almost anyone. My home and investment properties that I have acquired over the years cover much of that figure. If I had simply left my money in the bank rather than invested, my net worth would likely be less than 1M. I suppose I could figure out an exact number but the motivation to do see seems to escape me 🤭.

AmericanKulak says

I think excessive optimism and magic thinking is just as bad as excessive pessimism and dooming.

False choice fallacy. I stopped reading right there.

Nomograph says

False choice fallacy. I stopped reading right there.

Get accused of the very False Choice Fallacy, exactly what I was pointing out when I said.

AmericanKulak says

I think excessive optimism and magic thinking is just as bad as excessive pessimism and dooming.

In other words, a plea that one extreme is as bad as the other. I'm presenting an argument that is very OPPOSITE of a false choice, but a GREAT EXAMPLE of trying to point out an "Excluded Middle" option.

The whole thing being a continuation of arguments like:

Sure, there is excess worry, but saving for a few weeks of food and essentials is wisdom. Since the invention of Agriculture about 8000 BPY, it was necessary in most places to survive the winter season.

Nomograph says

This isn't medieval Europe, Kulak. We have a level of opportunity that previous generations couldn't have dreamed of. It's a shame to see folks squander it by wallowing in a mindset of scarcity and victimhood. The world is our collective oyster and t's possible for just about anyone in the western world to go out and not only seek, but find their pearl.

Translation: "Let them eat cake." - Marie Antoinette (attrubuted)

Opportunity does not equal agency to be able to avail oneself to exploit said opportunity.

Nomograph says

I suppose I can talk about my own case. I would ballpark my net worth at around $10MM. Over the years I have invested in real estate, stocks, and private companies e.g. startup equity.

How much did you inherit? How did you get that initial money to invest?

Nomograph says

To address your real point, 10MM is within reach of almost anyone.

Almost anyone? Really?

Nomograph says

Patrick, I would like to hear why you think that tying currency to metal is a good practice.

@Nomograph

So that the Federal Reserve cannot steal money from everyone continuously, as they have been doing.

Nomograph says

Furthermore, low-level inflation prevents deflation.

Silver inflates, slowly, as more silver is discovered. Definitely much faster than gold does. So you can have a bit of inflation with silver.

Nomograph says

Currency deflation is one of the worst conditions for an economy because it discourages investing and encourages currency hoarding. The velocity of the currency (i.e. the number of times it changes hands pur unit time) slows to a crawl and the economy stagnates. People spend only what they absolutely need to because that dollar will be worth more tomorrow.

Maybe people should spend only what they absolutely need to.

Nomograph says

I'm confused now. How does, say, a dollar bill "rob me blind." HINT: It doesn't. If you stuff your dollar bills in a mattress for years while knowing their value slowly lessens, you have robbed yourself. Government-issued currency is just a convenient medium to facilitate the exchange of goods and services and inflation insures that it is used primarily for that purpose.

Do you really think it's the government job to grow your wealth and keep it safe for you?

So your assumption is that without the government to regulate and issue currency, we too dumb to do it ourselves? I guess you'd say same for healthcare, drugs, transportation, etc. Just curious, can you provide an example of government ever making anything better..?

As to the inflation comment, Jefferson(?) already said it best:
"If the American people ever allow the private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and the corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered"

Your choice to ignore history and the destruction central banking inflation causes does not change reality.

RWSGFY says

I'm pretty sure $100 invested in AAPL, GOOG, NFLX, TSLA, NVDA, AMZN and such 10-15 years ago has beaten inflation even with taxes taken into account. Heck, even plain old boring S&P index fund did that, so no stock-picking prowess or luck necessary.

I took Apple and the past 10 years. Price has gone up about 82%. Inflation as a calculation of the rate of growth of the money supply(CPI is shit), is 46% during that period. That means a realized gain of 36%. Now, if you look at the price of physical silver over that same period, it has increased about the same amount(and metals are highly suppressed).

So what does this mean? In terms of real money, your stock investments didn't gain shit. But since our economy is built on Monopoly money, and fucking no one accounts for taxes, and especially not inflation, they see more zeros and assume they've made a profit.

You aren't making more, and stuff isn't more expensive. The money is just worth-less...

https://www.zerohedge.com/personal-finance/nebraska-ends-income-taxes-gold-and-silver-declares-cbdcs-are-not-lawful-money

With Gov. Jim Pillen’s recent signature, Nebraska has become the 12th state to end capital gains taxes on sales of gold and silver.

LB 1317 is the fourth major sound money bill to become law this year, as state lawmakers across the nation scramble to protect the public from the ravages of inflation and runaway federal debt.

Under the new Nebraska law, any “gains” or “losses” on precious metal sales reported on federal income tax returns are backed out, thereby removing them from the calculation of a Nebraska taxpayer’s adjusted gross income (AGI).

Supported by the Sound Money Defense League, Money Metals Exchange, and in-state advocates, Nebraska’s sound money measure passed out of the unicameral legislature’s Revenue committee unanimously before being amended into a larger bill.

Sponsor Sen. Ben Hansen said upon news of the formal enactment of his legislation:

Gold and silver are the only forms of currency mentioned in our Constitution and with that comes the people’s ability to use it as such without penalty from the government. Saving, and using, gold and silver is our right and one of the only checks and balances to our federal government’s unending devaluation of our paper currency.

Taxpayers often realize ‘gains’ when converting the monetary metals back into Federal Reserve notes even though the ‘gains’ do not reflect an increase in real value but rather reflect the currency’s ongoing devaluation.

This is cute but they shouldʼve abolished SIT alltogether.

Life should not be made arbitrarily hard for people who are honest and work hard. Life is hard in general, but humans should not make life harder for other humans just because it's fun to watch others grovel. That was the guiding principle of the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution. Fuck all of you who don't believe me - read it for your commie selves.

Having to learn how to invest outside of your wheelhouse just to counter the corruption of the money that you earn through your livelihood - yes, the 1- and 2-sigma intelligent people can figure this shit out, but that's not the point. The point is, that a society that is structured to exploit the vast majority of its population for the sake of the few is doomed to fail. The Founders knew this. They tried to strike a balance so that the majority of the population could live their lives as they saw fit, without undue "government interference" AKA theft.

There are unfortunately many people who have trouble doing the basics of what needs to be done to succeed in our "modern" society. This is where I fault the so-called "Christians," for Christ says to seek a just society, a place for everyone. A society which is too greedy or too ignorant to figure out a plan whereby all members of that society can do the work that they can and earn a measure of the rewards that the society can dispense is an unjust society. I'm not talking about gravely sick people or otherwise severely but temporarily injured - I'm talking about average and below intelligence.

stereotomy says

Having to learn how to invest outside of your wheelhouse just to counter the corruption of the money that you earn through your livelihood

I agree, it's set up to exploit people who don't have time to learn about investing or the aptitude for it.

Silver by weight (not dollars, ever!) would fix this.

Weight alone, weight of 0.9999 pure silver.

RWSGFY says

This is cute but they shouldʼve abolished SIT alltogether.

I agree. Taxing income reduces the incentive to work.

Sales should also never be taxed, because commerce is good.

Land value is the only appropriate object of taxation, where "land" includes radio spectrum and other natural resources no one created. Between that and import tariffs, we could easily fund as much government as we actually need to have. Which is much less government that we currently have.

In the last 25 years since the end of 1999, gold has risen 736.2%, silver 484.4%, the Dow 248.2% and the S&P500 263.4%.