patrick.net

@Patrick There is no reason to have a commodity based monetary system. The Fed was designed to put inflation into the system. It really doesn't matter whether we have inflation or deflation (which would occur under a commodity metal based system), but the numbers are easier when prices are increasing. Also, debt being inflated away has generally caused less stress on a society than when debt is defaulted away.

Also, under a commodity based system interest would not be able to exist (see what compounding does over say a 2000 year term) without there being constant fraud. The financial intermediaries would need to charge storage fees. These fees would be of such an extent as to do away with any perceived benefit of having a locked in money supply.

Sometimes the monetary base simply needs to expand. War is a common enough instance where the government simply needs to be able to print its way into victory. Deflationary busts are another time when there must be a lender of last resort. Such as when the Housing Bubble burst. If there was not intervention from the Fed/government housing prices would have continued to go down, resulting in more foreclosures. higher interest rates on homes (as they would have been seen as even more risky) and even more unemployment. All financial institutions would have failed This spiral would have continued until the system destroyed itself.

We currently have the best monetary system the world has ever seen. There is little friction in the system between buyers and sellers and if we need a few extra trillion dollars, we can add it to the system at almost zero cost (such as with the Covid lockdowns), or heaven forbid a major war.

Misc says

The Fed was designed to put inflation into the system.

The Fed was designed to enrich bankers and enslave people with a boom bust cycle.

Yes, I think that the purpose of the fed is to give a small group of super-rich bankers the sole right to create money for their own benefit.

Everyone else loses.

Their justification is that when debt bubbles implode, the ability to create more money prevents defaults by creating inflation. Maybe that is true to some degree, but it encourages unhealthy risk taking. And a lot of the people saved from default are those rich bankers or their friends. They are bailed out at the expense of the public.

In my ideal world, all debt is clearly marked as debt with a warning: MAY DEFAULT

And that would include all paper money, which would simply be a promise for silver.

Misc says

There is no reason to have a commodity based monetary system. The Fed was designed to put inflation into the system. It really doesn't matter whether we have inflation or deflation (which would occur under a commodity metal based system)

We can have infinite inflation under a fiat system, and we always get that, always.

Do you think we'll ever live in a world where everybody on the planet can own 1 ton of gold? With (reported) above ground supplies, every human being could have TWO ounces. For silver, if just every American bought 2 ounces, that would consume the entire world's production of silver.

richwicks says

Misc says

There is no reason to have a commodity based monetary system. The Fed was designed to put inflation into the system. It really doesn't matter whether we have inflation or deflation (which would occur under a commodity metal based system)

We can have infinite inflation under a fiat system, and we always get that, always.

Do you think we'll ever live in a world where everybody on the planet can own 1 ton of gold? With (reported) above ground supplies, every human being could have TWO ounces. For silver, if just every American bought 2 ounces, that would consume the entire world's production of silver.

Exactly my point. If we base our monetary system on a metal commodity, the system by its nature would be deflationary. Whereby prices would decrease as there would be constantly less metal in the system per capita as population increased and metal was removed from the system by people saving it.

Futhermore in times of financial stress, such as a war, there would be no ability of the government to raise let's say $4 trillion to pay for the costs of the war as that amount of metal would not exist in the country's treasury. Any country handicapping itself this way would find itself losing to the opposing country.

It is easier math-wise for prices and wages to be increasing rather than decreasing.

NuttBoxer says

If you know the coins, you'll have it memorized. But I would suspect until it becomes more common, scales would be used, especially if people don't know each other well.

You can check the coin appearance easily, checking weight is more clunky but doable, but how do you check the silver content in a typical retail situation?

Misc says

Futhermore in times of financial stress, such as a war, there would be no ability of the government to raise let's say $4 trillion to pay for the costs of the war

I guess we would have to save up until we could afford a war.

Sounds like a plus.

Misc says

Using little bits of metal as a currency is clunky. Dollars are much better. Electronic payments can be done (such as ordering from Amazon). Large purchases can be done ie. for cars, trucks, plane tickets etc.

De facto currency since the beginning of time, and still used today. Paper money is worthless, and controlled by central banks. Electronic payments are NOT paper, and represent the next phase in human slavery.

Misc says

Silver has only appreciated about 3.3% annually since 1913. So, it is about break-even with dollars held in a bank account when you factor in interest.

Against what? The Federal Reserve Debt note has depreciated 97% during that same time. You know the biggest reason silver and gold are used for money, stability. It's money, not speculation bubbles.

Misc says

Exactly my point. If we base our monetary system on a metal commodity, the system by its nature would be deflationary.

No, it wouldn't be. You could price gold at $20,000 an ounce. Or $2,000,000 an ounce.

The problem with fiat money, is that when a bank goes bankrupt, they just have the Federal reserve create more money, and give it them.

That was "Quantitative Easing".

Our system is that NO MATTER WHAT some FAVORED businesses do, they will NEVER go bankrupt. You might have the same business, be competing with them, produce a better product, have happier customers, and be driven out of business because your competitor got a 0% loan that they NEVER have to pay back.

You can't do this kind of shit with a commodity standard. You can engage in fraud for a little while, but not forever.

The reason we're in this shitshow, is you've been brainwashed to think "inflation is good". No, it's not.

Misc says

Patrick There is no reason to have a commodity based monetary system. The Fed was designed to put inflation into the system. It really doesn't matter whether we have inflation or deflation (which would occur under a commodity metal based system), but the numbers are easier when prices are increasing. Also, debt being inflated away has generally caused less stress on a society than when debt is defaulted away.

The Fed was designed to rob you through bubbles and busts. It's like your reading from a Central Bank tele-prompter. Read about American finances at the end and beginning of the 1800's, from a historian. Or transfer everything into CDBC's, seems to be your preferred end-game, slavery.

Misc says

Also, under a commodity based system interest would not be able to exist (see what compounding does over say a 2000 year term) without there being constant fraud. The financial intermediaries would need to charge storage fees. These fees would be of such an extent as to do away with any perceived benefit of having a locked in money supply.

Complete fantasy. Many banks where quite successful without fraud, or excessive fees. It's like you can't imagine an economy without government corruption running it. But it has existed numerous times throughout history.

Misc says

We currently have the best monetary system the world has ever seen. There is little friction in the system between buyers and sellers and if we need a few extra trillion dollars, we can add it to the system at almost zero cost (such as with the Covid lockdowns), or heaven forbid a major war.

Explain record homelessness and unemployment. Explain no food on the shelves. Explain having to order everything ahead to do jobs because parts are missing. Explain why almost everyone lives in debt. If this is your utopia, I shudder.

Misc says

Exactly my point. If we base our monetary system on a metal commodity, the system by its nature would be deflationary. Whereby prices would decrease as there would be constantly less metal in the system per capita as population increased and metal was removed from the system by people saving it.

You mean all the debt would have to be paid, and we would have to live within our means? Yes! Coins can be of any weight of silver and gold, as small or large as is needed. The argument of not enough metal based on the belief that economic instability is normal. It's not.

Obviously, those mythical banks that worked so well under a metal commodity system ---- DID NOT SURVIVE

They can only survive for a limited time before their fraud overwhelms them unless they rely soley on storage fees.

Misc says

Futhermore in times of financial stress, such as a war, there would be no ability of the government to raise let's say $4 trillion to pay for the costs of the war as that amount of metal would not exist in the country's treasury. Any country handicapping itself this way would find itself losing to the opposing country.

Oh no, no more war!

RWSGFY says

but how do you check the silver content in a typical retail situation?

Weight, and knowledge of common silver coins. It would become second nature eventually. That's why gold and silver work, the weights are very precise.

RWSGFY says

but how do you check the silver content in a typical retail situation?

You've never handled a silver or gold coin have you?

Gold can be counterfeited with Tungsten, but if you drop the coin, you'll immediately know it's fake. There's different resonances in the metals. The first thing you'll notice when you handle a gold or silver coin, is its weight. Lead is about 1/2 as dense as gold.

NuttBoxer says

Misc says

We currently have the best monetary system the world has ever seen. There is little friction in the system between buyers and sellers and if we need a few extra trillion dollars, we can add it to the system at almost zero cost (such as with the Covid lockdowns), or heaven forbid a major war.

Explain record homelessness and unemployment. Explain no food on the shelves. Explain having to order everything ahead to do jobs because parts are missing. Explain why almost everyone lives in debt. If this is your utopia, I shudder.

NuttBoxer says

Misc says

We currently have the best monetary system the world has ever seen. There is little friction in the system between buyers and sellers and if we need a few extra trillion dollars, we can add it to the system at almost zero cost (such as with the Covid lockdowns), or heaven forbid a major war.

Explain record homelessness and unemployment. Explain no food on the shelves. Explain having to order everything ahead to do jobs because parts are missing. Explain why almost everyone lives in debt. If this is your utopia, I shudder.

NuttBoxer says

Misc says

We currently have the best monetary system the world has ever seen. There is little friction in the system between buyers and sellers and if we need a few extra trillion dollars, we can add it to the system at almost zero cost (such as with the Covid lockdowns), or heaven forbid a major war.

Explain record homelessness and unemployment. Explain no food on the shelves. Explain having to order everything ahead to do jobs because parts are missing. Explain why almost everyone lives in debt. If this is your utopia, I shudder.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, unemployment is at 3.4% a record low. Homelessness is caused by drugs and/or mental health problems.

Misc says

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, unemployment is at 3.4% a record low. Homelessness is caused by drugs and/or mental health problems.

Sure, and Russia blew up the Nordstream II, and Trump hired hookers to urinate on beds, and Trump is a puppet of Putin, and Ukraine had a revolution, and Assad was gassing his own people, and Qaddafi was about to cause a humanitarian crisis, and Saddam Hussein had a secret weapons of mass destruction program, and the al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant was making chemical weapons precursors, and Iraq was stealing incubators from Kuwaiti hospitals.

You see 3 fingers, or 4, or 5, whatever the state tells you to see. For some people, they can't be as warped and insane.

NuttBoxer says

common silver coins

Which haven't been minted in almost 60 years! Silver quarters, dimes and half dollars used to be common as dirt until LBJ.

richwicks says

Misc says

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, unemployment is at 3.4% a record low. Homelessness is caused by drugs and/or mental health problems.

Sure, and Russia blew up the Nordstream II, and Trump hired hookers to urinate on beds, and Trump is a puppet of Putin, and Ukraine had a revolution, and Assad was gassing his own people, and Qaddafi was about to cause a humanitarian crisis, and Saddam Hussein had a secret weapons of mass destruction program, and the al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant was making chemical weapons precursors, and Iraq was stealing incubators from Kuwaiti hospitals.

You see 3 fingers, or 4, or 5, whatever the state tells you to see. For some people, they can't be as warped and insane.

richwicks says

Misc says

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, unemployment is at 3.4% a record low. Homelessness is caused by drugs and/or mental health problems.

Sure, and Russia blew up the Nordstream II, and Trump hired hookers to urinate on beds, and Trump is a puppet of Putin, and Ukraine had a revolution, and Assad was gassing his own people, and Qaddafi was about to cause a humanitarian crisis, and Saddam Hussein had a secret weapons of mass destruction program, and the al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant was making chemical weapons precursors, and Iraq was stealing incubators from Kuwaiti hospitals.

You see 3 fingers, or 4, or 5, whatever the state tells you to see. For some people, they can't be as warped and insane.

So you are saying that the evil Central bankers are causing businesses to struggle to find employees, and forcing people to use fentanyl.

NDrLoR says

NuttBoxer says

common silver coins

Which haven't been minted in almost 60 years! Silver quarters and half dollars used to be common as dirt until LBJ.

Yeah, well today, it's entirely common to have shortages where the mint simply stops producing them, because they don't have the silver to do it. We are constantly in shortage. The COMEX isn't audited, it's rife with fraud, and the SEC won't do anything about it.

Misc says

So you are saying that the evil Central bankers are causing businesses to struggle to find employees, and forcing people to use fentanyl.

No, I'm saying that businesses are NOT struggling to find employees. I'm saying that's total bullshit.

Misc says

the evil Central bankers are causing businesses to struggle to find employees, and forcing people to use fentanyl.

BASTARDS!

Exactly my point. If we base our monetary system on a metal commodity, the system by its nature would be deflationary. Whereby prices would decrease as there would be constantly less metal in the system per capita as population increased and metal was removed from the system by people saving it.

That's why the Founding Fathers defined the dollar via Bimetallism: either silver or gold, whichever is more abundant at any given moment. It worked far better than the PhD-PoliticalPressure standards we have now.

Futhermore in times of financial stress, such as a war, there would be no ability of the government to raise let's say $4 trillion to pay for the costs of the war as that amount of metal would not exist in the country's treasury. Any country handicapping itself this way would find itself losing to the opposing country.

You are conflating wars of imperial expansion vs. wars of self-defense. The central-banking money system is conducive to wars of imperial expansion (then impoverish its original citizens by cheap imports from conquests), followed by imperial corruption and collapse due to the empire impoverish the vast majority of its citizens via the transfer of wealth from average citizens to the tiny number ruling elite (the tiny elite reap the benefit of imperial conquest / cheap imports, while the average citizens bear the cost of maintaining empire)

It is easier math-wise for prices and wages to be increasing rather than decreasing.

Tell us what a horrendous collapse the high tech industry has been over the past 50 years as the cost of 8kbytes of storage and 1MegOp/second processing power has decreased from over $10,000 to less than 1/10,000 of a $. If larger numbers were better than smaller numbers, Americans would be crossing borders to Mexico in pursuit of higher numbers in pay stubs as the pesos depreciate faster than the dollar in the past few decades. Stable and sound money enable prosperity. People don't stop buying necessities even if prices go down. Declining prices actually discourage people from speculative nonsense (but banks hate not being able to make loans, pulling money out of thin air, enabled by gullible people in pursuit of FOMO, whether that FOMO is an over priced house or an empire, both shackle the people more than benefit the people).

Misc says

Obviously, those mythical banks that worked so well under a metal commodity system ---- DID NOT SURVIVE

Neither did the first three central banks in the United States. Neither did Rome once they went full credit. Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Weimer Germany, etc, etc, etc.

You know what did survive, the value of gold and silver. You can still buy a nice suit for the same amount of gold in Italy you could during Roman times.

Also, mythical means fake. So you either never heard of, or are lying about the banks of Venice, Amsterdam, and Hamburg. While they are no longer around, the bank of Venice existed for nearly 300 years. Longer than this country.

The price of silver has gone up about 3.3% per year since 1913.

If a person had put that money in an interest bearing account, he would have ended up with about the same purchasing power as holding physical silver.

Misc says

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, unemployment is at 3.4% a record low. Homelessness is caused by drugs and/or mental health problems.

Do you ever look at anything beside government sources? 41% according to the WSJ...
https://www.wyattresearch.com/commodity-prices/the-real-unemployment-numbers/

Drugs and mental health issues aren't new. The amount of shit and homeless in downtown San Diego is. Try again.

NDrLoR says

Which haven't been minted in almost 60 years!

American Eagles, Krugerrands, Mexican Silver pesos, Maple Leafs. I believe these are all still commonly minted today.

Misc says

If a person had put that money in an interest bearing account, he would have ended up with about the same purchasing power as holding physical silver.

Minus taxation. Everybody goes out of their way to ignore that.

Misc says

So you are saying that the evil Central bankers are causing businesses to struggle to find employees, and forcing people to use fentanyl.

Do you understand the nature of the Creature? No, or you'd realize this statement isn't that far fetched. Central banks exist to impoverish and enslave. You have listed two byproducts of these actions above...

richwicks says

Misc says

If a person had put that money in an interest bearing account, he would have ended up with about the same purchasing power as holding physical silver.

Minus taxation. Everybody goes out of their way to ignore that.

richwicks says

Misc says

If a person had put that money in an interest bearing account, he would have ended up with about the same purchasing power as holding physical silver.

Minus taxation. Everybody goes out of their way to ignore that.

Subtract out storage fees (unless you want to risk robbery) for the physical silver and things even out again.

Misc says

The price of silver has gone up about 3.3% per year since 1913.

If a person had put that money in an interest bearing account, he would have ended up with about the same purchasing power as holding physical silver.

No one just holds silver. You swap for gold and vis-versa as the ratio changes over time. If I bough $100 of silver in 1913, at about 50 cents an ounce, I would have 200 ounces. If I exchanged around the first low in the 20's, let's say at 20 rather than 17, I would have 10 ounces of gold. So on until now, I would end up with 6,750 ounces of silver, with a value of nearly $169,000 dollars.
https://sdbullion.com/silver-price-history
https://www.macrotrends.net/1441/gold-to-silver-ratio

I did not use the tops or bottoms, but only near, as most people never hit it on the head. Now as you correctly stated, the real value of silver has changed very little over time. The amount above really reflects how much value the fiat dollar has lost.

Misc says

Subtract out storage fees (unless you want to risk robbery) for the physical silver and things even out again.

If you're paying storage fees, you should be rich enough to store it yourself. Small amounts most people hold don't require anything more than a good hiding place. But robbery, good point. What if your savings was held at any of the MANY MANY institutions that went belly up over the past century, leaving their depositors peniless? Home robberies are not very common, percentage wise, the risk again, is with the corrupt fiat banks due to how many people they take down every time a bank goes under/fails.

Historically, there are over 300 fiat currencies that have failed. Eventually, ours will as well.

For quite a few years now, the world's central banks, along with governments such as China and Russia, have been stockpiling gold and silver. Why do you think they are doing that?

The 9000 banks that failed during the Great Depression did so when the dollar was convertible to gold.

The creation of fiat currencies is one of the biggest Ponzi schemes in world history.

Misc says

Subtract out storage fees (unless you want to risk robbery) for the physical silver and things even out again.

No. Nobody here knows where I live or ever will. I can talk openly with you with minimal risk.

Nobody should know what you've got. I look and live "poor". I'm not materialistic, I don't flaunt my wealth. Stupid people do that.

NuttBoxer says

RWSGFY says

but how do you check the silver content in a typical retail situation?

Weight, and knowledge of common silver coins. It would become second nature eventually. That's why gold and silver work, the weights are very precise.

I's wager that with modern metallurgy it won't be hard to create a silver-plated coin which will weight exactly the same as the real one and be cheaper to make. Besides, isn't there a natural variation in the weight of old coins due to wear?

Things that used to be hard to replicate are not that hard anymore. For example the battle scenes engraved on the cylinders of black powder Colt revolvers are there to make the real thing to stand out from fakes. It was reasonably hard to replicate for some time but was dropped once the technollogy became widely accessible and cheaper.

All the great religious Books have detailed that charging interest leads to the impoverishment of the people along with the slavery that ensues.

With fiat currencies, interest can be charged as there is no limit to the amount that can be printed.

Misc says

All the great religious Books have detailed that charging interest leads to the impoverishment of the people along with the slavery that ensues.

With fiat currencies, interest can be charged as there is no limit to the amount that can be printed.

And yet, if we compare ourselves with our fathers, grandfathers and grand grand fathers are most of us really impoverished compared to them?

Misc says

The 9000 banks that failed during the Great Depression did so when the dollar was convertible to gold.

What caused the failure of banks was the fractional reserve banking system, whereby, a very high percentage of actual money that is being held by the bank, is actually loaned out. This system can only operate successfully as long as the demand for withdrawals do not exceed the cash on hand at the bank needed to meet those withdrawals. Once the public catches on that their money isn't actually being 'held by the bank,' bank runs occur, which eventually lead to bank failures.

The 'roaring 20s' saw a massive amount of credit being extended all over the world, including to individuals that wanted to speculate in stock markets. Once the markets began to show signs of instability, the selling ensued which in turn caused the banks to 'call in their margin loans,' which furthered the selling panic.

We have something going on right now that is FAR WORSE than the situation in the 1920s, and that is the derivative market, whereby, loans that are being held are counted as an ASSET rather than a DEBT, allowing the bank to create money to be loaned out digitally. This process is repeated over and over and over again and every LOAN that is derived from another is considered to be an ASSET. All of this is obviously dependent upon an ever expanding economy, precisely why the Fed continues to create money (for the Treasury), in order to keep the entire Ponzi scheme going for as long as possible. It really is a classic house of cards.

That's why when the collapse hits, it will be a financial catastrophe beyond anything ever seen in world history.