patrick.net

PeopleUnited says

With sound money people don’t need banks.

LOLwhat? Are we supposed to keep our "sound money" under a mattress or buried in a tin can under a peach tree? How the fuck that "no need banks" shit would work for somebody not living hand to mouth? You seriously suggesting that I should keep my couple of million $$ in savings at home, thus painting a huge target for a home invasion on my back? Or shall I hire private security to guard my house 24x7? The cost of that won't be trivial.

RWSGFY says

LOLwhat? Are we supposed to keep our "sound money" under a mattress or buried in a tin can under a peach tree?

They could store it in their Tiny House

RWSGFY says

You seriously suggesting that I should keep my couple of million $$ in savings at home, thus painting a huge target for a home invasion on my back? Or shall I hire private security to guard my house 24x7? The cost of that won't be trivial.

Did you actually keep $2mil in cash savings account when the interest rate was less than 0.25% while the price inflation rate was double-digits despite all the hedonic adjustments, box-shrinking and owners' equivalent of rent? You must have lost well over $200k in purchasing power per year during that time, well in excess of the cost of having a dedicated security system (is that even necessary when dealing with only 1000 ounces of gold weighing less than 70lbs? BTW, $2million in $100 bills would weigh $44lbs, so not that far from gold weight at current price; give it another 5-6 years of inflation as low as 5% per year would make the two weights equal to each other). In any case, why didn't you invest that money in some productive assets that would throw off yield instead of cash sitting in a savings account that yielded practically nothing while inflation was eating you alive.

AmericanKulak says

Because once the bank went under, that was the only thing your gold banknote was good for - padding for your legs.

Imagine Silicon Valley Bank, but with paper bank notes given to the depositors. Where is the FDIC going to get billions in gold coin?

TRUST THE BANKS! Give 'em your Gold, and Take their paper!

Combined with your excellent earlier comment on banks discounting each other's notes, what would have happened in a sound money banking system would be other banks deeply discounting SVB notes when it was lending money to borrowers that no other banks would lend while on condition of SVB being their exclusive banks, essentially creating a much lower value SVB-dollar plantation script. Banks discounting each other's notes would have made the unsound lending practice easily visible, consequently depositors would have withdrawn sooner and stopped the pyramid scheme in much earlier stages. What the fiat money banking system and unlimited FDIC insurance have done is incentivize bad banking practices and reward/incentivize the wealthy/relatively-independent segment of the population to become stupid and lazy. It's the monetary equivalent of having centrally controlled electronic voting machines casting the votes instead of letting informed voters vote . . . which obviously leads to dictatorships and/or fake cardboard cut-out leaders

Incidentally, deeply discounted SVB notes would also have prevented Californians buying up land and homes in Texas and other red states, turning (parts of) them blue and just as broken. The spread of undiscounted SVB-dollars is having a Gresham's Law effect: fraud money chasing out good money under fiat money standards.

RWSGFY says

LOLwhat? Are we supposed to keep our "sound money" under a mattress or buried in a tin can under a peach tree? How the fuck that "no need banks" shit would work for somebody not living hand to mouth? You seriously suggesting that I should keep my couple of million $$ in savings at home, thus painting a huge target for a home invasion on my back? Or shall I hire private security to guard my house 24x7?

Here’s an idea, leave your alleged $2 million in a bank, so that the real professional criminals (banksters) can have custody of it.

Yeah, that sounds like a good plan.

AmericanKulak says

There were many panics and local busts during the Gold Era and most of them were brought upon by Wildcat banks that couldn't honor all the paper they spewed out relative to their metal deposits.

Yes like I said, private banks need their own regulations.

But sound money is a government thing not a private bank thing. A government that can steal your money through taxes and inflation has too much power. A government that has the power to literally print money on a whim just because it wants to spend more will become a criminal government. Hence the government you have and yet you defend the criminals to the last breath, and all the while they continue to enslave you. Get ready for your CBDC, you are going to love that even more.

AmericanKulak says

Good luck schlepping sacks of metal to buy land or a house in cash. Much less an airline delivering metal money for aircraft.

This doesn’t even make sense on the surface.

Here is what an acre of land sold for in 1900.


If we had sound money the price for that same acre of land today may have gone up or down some, but still would be relatively close to that same $20.

Do you understand what sound money means? It means money retains its value and prices for most goods, and necessities don’t rise to 250 times what they were in 1900.

PeopleUnited says

Do you understand what sound money means? It means money retains its value and prices for most goods, and necessities don’t rise to 250 times what they were in 1900.

I do. And I love taking money out of the hands of government.

Buuuuuut, I'm not putting it in the hands of banks.

Again, we saw what happened in the 19th. The Banks and top 0.1% soaked up all the gold, and gave out paper.

If you had a banknote for $100 in gold and went to another bank or tried to use it somewhere else, you got less than $100 for it, and often a 5% discount. You lost 5%+ of your money with gold-backed banknotes in many transactions.

AmericanKulak says

PeopleUnited says

Do you understand what sound money means? It means money retains its value and prices for most goods, and necessities don’t rise to 250 times what they were in 1900.

I do. And I love taking money out of the hands of government.

Buuuuuut, I'm not putting it in the hands of banks.

Again, we saw what happened in the 19th. The Banks and top 0.1% soaked up all the gold, and gave out paper.

If you had a banknote for $100 in gold and went to another bank or tried to use it somewhere else, you got less than $100 for it, and often a 5% discount. You lost 5%+ of your money with gold-backed banknotes in many transactions.

Forget about bank notes. That has nothing to do with sound money. In fact we can have sound money and outlaw bank notes.

But even under current transactions you often lose nearly five percent to the money changers. That’s actually pretty normal. We can make that illegal too of course. That is what government should do, regulate against fraud and monopoly. It should not create money out of thin air (aka commit fraud itself)

PeopleUnited says

AmericanKulak says

PeopleUnited says

Do you understand what sound money means? It means money retains its value and prices for most goods, and necessities don’t rise to 250 times what they were in 1900.

I do. And I love taking money out of the hands of government.

Buuuuuut, I'm not putting it in the hands of banks.

Again, we saw what happened in the 19th. The Banks and top 0.1% soaked up all the gold, and gave out paper.

If you had a banknote for $100 in gold and went to another bank or tried to use it somewhere else, you got less than $100 for it, and often a 5% discount. You lost 5%+ of your money with gold-backed banknotes in many transactions.

Forget about bank notes. That has nothing to do with sound money. In fact we can have sound mone...

Not interior to your own country you don't.

When was the last time you had to exchange Community Credit Union dollars for Bank of America dollars because somebody was suspicious of a credit union they never heard of?

Gold is cornerable by big actors. Silver less so. An average land value over-a-decade based currency would be imminently stable and mimic real growth of the nation, increasing at the same rate as the economy improved.

I’m not arguing for anything but sound money. It matters not what method is used to achieve that. (Although once you start down the road of land taxes and land value BS, you empower a bureaucrat aka crony capitalism to decide values and that usually doesn’t end well)

Just know this, when the US coined money out of gold and silver, those coins were in circulation for decades and served as a stable form of payment.

Tax the rich to pay their fair share, require payment in metals. Then put the metal coins into circulation. Problem solved.

We also need to basically end corporate charters after 5 or 10 years so that corporations can’t become more powerful than people and buy votes/create laws that inhibit competition, but that issue is separate again from sound money.

People don't understand the purpose of commodities as money.

If the government collapses, there can still be trade possible. That's the purpose, to make government irrelevant in survival.

If the dollar goes to 0, what will most of you do? Most of you will starve to death. You're already slaves. You must support the government. That's the purpose of fiat money.

When the government collapses, the thugs that work for the mob boss that runs the flea market sees the guy pull out silver rounds to pay for some antibiotics, a few of the guys follow him home, kill him and his sick kid, and take his stuff and his silver round stash.

AmericanKulak says

When the government collapses, the thugs that work for the mob boss that runs the flea market sees the guy pull out silver rounds to pay for some antibiotics, a few of the guys follow him home, kill him and his sick kid, and take his stuff and his silver round stash.

And this is different from current money and credit cards how?

There will always be criminals. The worsy criminals are the government. Your money is script paper.

richwicks says

And this is different from current money and credit cards how?

At least the FDIC can print Greenbacks.

Can the FDIC repay depositors with Gold when the bank that collapsed lent out 900% more gold than it had in banknotes?

EDIT: Silver is wonderful. But we need that mandatory metal minimum for wages and salaries and small contracts.

Gold is no longer a "barbarous relic".
https://www.finews.com/news/english-news/55674-gold-relic-central-bank-imf

In 1924, economist John Maynard Keynes described the gold standard as a «barbarous relic,» declaring both the usefulness and value of gold as obsolete.

Fast forward to 2022, central banks bought more gold than they had done in over half a century, splashing out on 1,136 tons of it. the most since 1967, as finews.com reported. The amount was also the second-highest value since 1950 and an increase of more than 150 percent compared over 2021.

In the four decades leading up to the global financial crisis, central banks were focused on reducing their gold holdings. This all changed in 2008, the point when the hoarding began.

I have mixed feelings about real money. I like silver and gold and copper and nickel coins but they are much more useful for other things. Real money is real because you don't have to trust a third party. A one troy ounce silver eagle has a distinct look and feel and would be difficult to counterfeit. It has intrinsic value. That same ounce of silver could be used in manufacturing some cool stuff.

If we had a government, or central bank, that we actually trusted then fiat money might work but we don't. our money has been pure fiat for more than 50 years and we are headed for the inevitable crash that all fiat money systems have gone through. Unless they can pull off the great reset...

We live in interesting times.

richwicks says

People don't understand the purpose of commodities as money.

If the government collapses, there can still be trade possible. That's the purpose, to make government irrelevant in survival.

Yes, it would be a fundamentally different economy. There will be bartering. Homesteading would prepare someone to survive this.

There may be lawlessness and more rampant crime because there is no organized government.

People would have to take matters into their own hands as far as survival as they can't call 911. That is why homesteaders are very prepared for this.

Small neighborhoods would have to form partnerships and alliances to protect themselves as a collective, such as provide for their own security or police.

But it will be survival mode. No easy life as far as running down to Walmart to buy cheap electronics, and food.

Likely services from health care to utilities (electricity, internet, etc.) will be non existent.

.

AmericanKulak says

When the government collapses, the thugs that work for the mob boss that runs the flea market sees the guy pull out silver rounds to pay for some antibiotics, a few of the guys follow him home, kill him and his sick kid, and take his stuff and his silver round stash.

Good point on physical safety/security. The US has the advantage of having high statistically armed civilians: so that thugs living off robbing people won't live long before running into civilians shooting back at the would-be muggers/home-invaders. Seems even today with the Soros DA's releasing thugs on minimum bails, the plan is avoiding wasting prison resources on them and hoping someone not in uniform would shoot and kill them, so that the government doesn't have to pay for more prisons, prison guards and prison doctors. IMHO, if/when the government collapses, even a full ounce silver round would be too valuable for buying random supply at the flea market or farmer's market. When the former soviet bloc countries collapsed, they all resorted to vodka/whiskey, cigarettes and tuna cans as circulating currency. In the US, the 90% silver quarters and dimes minted up to 1964 (and 40% silver half-dollars up to 1972) might become more convenient circulating currencies than alcohol/cigs/tuna. 100% silver rounds tarnish too quickly, and gold coins are too small unless making major purchases, so both are likely to be reserved for capital purchases or major appliances/equipment/car purchases.

ad says

Likely services from health care to utilities (electricity, internet, etc.) will be non existent.

There might be disruptions of utilities (but internet is designed to survive nuclear wars; the solar promotion in recent years might have something to do with survivability during power generation disruption); personal services will continue because doctors and nurses will have to eat as well (same as plumbers, electricians, etc.). Regulators preventing people from practicing medicine might have a hard time getting paid so they may have to practice medicine instead of stopping others from practicing medicine . . . which means the price of medicine will likely be lower (with much higher percentage of the money, close to 100%, going to the doctor/nurse doing the actual work, instead of myriads of paper pushers and legalized drug-pushers in the middle) but quality will depend on practitioner (as always is the case anyway, especially given the way med schools admit students based on race nowadays).

Reality says

Good point on physical safety/security. The US has the advantage of having high statistically armed civilians: so that thugs living off robbing people won't live long before running into civilians shooting back at the would-be muggers/home-invaders.

That is why employees are paid in company script. You certainly don't want half of your employees getting killed leaving the pay station, with their bag of gold dust and ingots.

Tenpoundbass says

That is why employees are paid in company script. You certainly don't want half of your employees getting killed leaving the pay station, with their bag of gold dust and ingots.

I don't think employees are paid in company script (company script would be a bearer instrument therefore just as enticing to robbers as cash) but usually checks drawn on whatever bank the company banks with (i.e. a check instrument with specific recipient name), mainly as a way of avoiding clerical errors. In any case, check-cashing (helping employees to turn pay checks into bearer instrument, usually cash) is a thriving business despite those check-cashing stores usually being located in neighborhoods that have high crime rate to begin with. The casualty rate at check-cashing stores are fairly low (understatement of the year; nearly non-existent), in fact lower than the average of the specific neighborhoods where they are located. At current price, $100 bills weigh less than the equivalent value gold (i.e. 20 Franklins weigh less than 1 troy ounce), so it is actually easier to grab-and-run $1M cash in $100 bills (22lbs) than grabbing-and-running with $1M worth of gold (about 34 lbs). I don't know, do you think the nicer neighborhoods where the former SVB customers showed up in their Porsches to run on the bank had more shootings at bank counters where checks get cashed?

We're not actually giving China Gold are we? What are we giving other countries when they call our loans?

Tenpoundbass says

What are we giving other countries when they call our loans?

A flyover by high level bombers?

Tenpoundbass says

We're not actually giving China Gold are we? What are we giving other countries when they call our loans?

The loans were made in fiat dollars; why would there be any need to pay back in gold? OTOH, under sound money system, those treasonous acts of shipping American jobs (and more importantly, American manufacturing bases) overseas would have been stopped a long time ago . . . and the huge highly centralized empires like China and Russia would have collapsed a long time ago because their giant bureaucracies wouldn't be able to survive without export trade adding liquidity to their economies that are constantly being sucked dry by the bureaucrats.