1
0

Judge Engoron thread


 invite response                
2023 Nov 30, 12:23pm   709 views  26 comments

by Patrick   ➕follow (55)   💰tip   ignore  



Comments 1 - 26 of 26        Search these comments

3   Patrick   2024 Mar 20, 12:57pm  

https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/gratifying-wednesday-march-20-2024


Fox News ran a terrific story yesterday headlined, “Kevin O'Leary warns 'extraordinary' NYC civil fraud penalty against Trump is 'an attack on America’.” Truer words were never spoken.

O’Leary seemed outraged about Trump’s historic $464 million dollar fine — over an offense for which officials who can’t speak proper English are still searching for a victim. Kevin properly pointed out that the problem has nothing to do with Trump. It’s about due process and property rights. In other words, if this works against Trump, everybody knows they’ll do it again, and again, and again.

They literally can’t help themselves. They are like bureaucratic termites. Their nature is to eat up and hollow out anything good and normal.

The article included more great stuff O’Leary said. But in my view, Kevin’s most important point was his call for everyone — regardless of political persuasion — to look at this case as an attack — not on Trump — but on America itself:

“This is an attack on America and I don't know how you can look at it any other way. And I know plenty of investors who are completely disturbed by this … no one is going to put any money to work in New York in these amounts until this thing settles down. The whole world is watching, and everybody's waiting for one thing we haven't got yet: adult supervision. Where is it? Where are the adults in this crazy narrative? Certainly there's got to be adult supervision at some point. And I understand, you know, the war going on here and all the political yada-yada, woof-woof-woof. But we need an adult in the room now. This is the United States of America under siege.”

All true. Where are the adults? Because the children are unsupervised and they are tearing up the house.
5   Ceffer   2024 Mar 20, 2:06pm  

It's what you learn when exposed to the legal taxation system. Judges are powerful and ruin lives more or less on a routine basis. The justice system prides itself on being able to financially whittle down just about anybody into powerlessness (and thus voicelessness). The 'lawfare' is baked in to a greater or lesser extent.

That's what happens when you are regarded as a dead chattels making noise and being forcibly brought to 'life' by a dispute tax collector (lawyer) at bar. Your 'dispute' is usually resolved by taking shit away from both parties until the wealthier party prevails.
6   Patrick   2024 Mar 22, 2:11pm  

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/lawfare-against-donald-trump-is-approaching


How do I put this politely?

Everything about this case is insane.

I am trying to find an understandable analogy for the basis of the case against Trump, the crime he is supposed to have committed.

Here’s the best I can do:

You decide to replace some windows. The contractor comes, quotes you a price. You agree. He says, “Are you sure you can pay?”

You say “Yes, I have the money in my bank account.”

This is a lie. You don’t have the money in your account, but you are sure you’ll get it next week. You have a check coming.

He looks dubious but agrees.

He does the job. The money comes in as promised and you pay on time. He is satisfied.

New York state finds out that you lied about having the money in your account.

It claims you have committed fraud. And it takes your house.
7   HeadSet   2024 Mar 22, 6:00pm  

A better analogy would be this:

You sell your house for $500k to a man who got a loan from a bank that appraised that house for that $500k. The deal closes and everyone is happy. 5 years later you are hauled into court for fraud, since the tax assessment on the house was only $420k. The buyer and the bank testify that everything was fine, but the judge finds you guilty anyway and nails you with a $200k fine.
8   Ceffer   2024 Mar 22, 6:11pm  

The breakdown of the dispute and law system in NYC under Dem/KommieKunt tutelege is making it clear that lawfare seizure of any business on the basis of twisted, corrupt officials is a trending. Businesses are taking note and seeing NYC as a place no longer to do business if they simply have corrupt commissars and printing press moronic legal printing press diploma implants deciding to lawfare them and seize their assets. Businesses might not enjoy law, but when it becomes arbitrary and unpredictable to the extent demonstrated by Trump's so called trial, they realize that there is no longer a functional legal infrastructure that they can trust to be either legal or fair.
9   Ceffer   2024 Mar 22, 6:13pm  

@Patrick, your 'Choose File' button is no longer working on my computer for some reason.
10   richwicks   2024 Mar 22, 6:18pm  

Ceffer says

Patrick, your 'Choose File' button is no longer working on my computer for some reason.


@Ceffer - what operating system are you using, and what web browser? Patrick will need that to duplicate the problem. I may just be a glitch during updates as well. I run Linux, and I have it setup to do updates continuously, so every now and then my system breaks, then corrects itself a few hours later. Linux rarely requires reboots for system updates, even when the kernel is updated.
11   Reality   2024 Mar 22, 6:22pm  

HeadSet says


A better analogy would be this:

You sell your house for $500k to a man who got a loan from a bank that appraised that house for that $500k. The deal closes and everyone is happy. 5 years later you are hauled into court for fraud, since the tax assessment on the house was only $420k. The buyer and the bank testify that everything was fine, but the judge finds you guilty anyway and nails you with a $200k fine.


Excellent analogy! That's exactly what this case is like.

Perhaps we can buy a stack of 1Oz American Gold Eagle from the US Mint for $2300each then sue the US Mint for fraud in this Judge's court and get back $2250 for each coin, because each coin has a face value $50 right on the coin itself (back side of the coin)! The Judge is deliberately conflating real market value vs. what the taxmen think they can reasonably assess and collect tax on without a tax revolt. Whenever there is a tax on asset value, unless it's cash or immediately marketable securities, there is usually a wide gap between market assessed value vs. tax assessment value. Most loans on houses and cars would not be possible if loans are capped by excise tax value: 4yr old cars are routinely assessed at 10% of MSRP in states that have excise tax on cars, whereas in reality most 4yr old cars are traded around 50% MSRP.
12   Ceffer   2024 Mar 22, 6:27pm  

Ceffer says

Patrick, your 'Choose File' button is no longer working on my computer for some reason.

I am on a Mac. I will try later, rw said that it could be self correcting after updates (or something, I'm computer illiterate beyond the interface).
13   richwicks   2024 Mar 22, 6:57pm  

Ceffer says

Ceffer says


Patrick, your 'Choose File' button is no longer working on my computer for some reason.

I am on a Mac. I will try later, rw said that it could be self correcting after updates (or something, I'm computer illiterate beyond the interface).


Patrick uses a Mac I believe. He should be able to reproduce it soon, or it will correct itself in a hour or two.

Get the Brave web browser, It does away with advertisements.
14   Patrick   2024 Mar 22, 7:44pm  

@Ceffer What if you just reload the page, does it work then?

If you're on a Chromium-based browser (which is most browser at this point), you should be able to open the browser's javascript console with option-command-i (press all 3 keys at the same time).

If you manage to open the javascript console, it should show an error message of some kind. That would help me figure things out.
15   Ceffer   2024 Mar 22, 10:13pm  

No, reloading doesn't help. I could show you the screenshot of the code?, but I can't upload it without the submit button.

A banner at the bottom says: "Third Party cookie phaseout warnings in Network and Application"
16   Ceffer   2024 Mar 22, 10:17pm  

OK, restarting fixed it. Apparently, the browser was in some kind of unannounced update (I presume), and something got glitched. Sorry for the alarm, but it seems to be fixed with the reboot.
17   Onvacation   2024 Mar 23, 7:24am  

Ceffer says

OK, restarting fixed it

My best fix when I was a technician back in the '90's. Closely followed by plugging something in.

One time I had to drive 3 hours from La Jolla to El Segundo in morning traffic to troubleshoot a modem problem. We tried to troubleshoot the issue over the phone to no avail. I finally battle through LA rush hour get to the office only to find that the user has the phone line plugged into the ethernet port.
18   Ceffer   2024 Mar 23, 5:23pm  

Yes, I have gotten into some special kind of stupid closed loops. Goes with the territory of having no coding. A bunch of funny letters and symbols rather than pretty pictures and all that.
20   Patrick   2024 Mar 25, 10:57am  

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/urgent-update-to-fridays-article


A New York appeals court has reduced the bond Donald Trump must post to appeal the civil fraud judgment against him to $175 million, giving him a crucial victory

Assuming Trump can post the $175 million bond, he will now be able to appeal the insane $464 million (and counting) penalty that Judge Arthur Engeron imposed on him last month. He will not face losing his properties until his appeal is heard.

Recall that Engeron’s ruling came for a “fraud” that Trump committed by taking out loans, then paying them back in full, with interest. Whatever one thinks of Trump, that decision was a travesty of justice and should frighten anyone who does business in New York. I suspect this is the first step in undoing it.
21   HeadSet   2024 Mar 25, 11:54am  

Patrick says

that decision was a travesty of justice and should frighten anyone who does business in New York

Yes, the businesses will be sure to kowtow bigly to Dems and never oppose them. "Want to donate to my campaign, or would you prefer to see my buddy Engoron?"
23   Patrick   2024 Mar 26, 7:48pm  

https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/four-years-tuesday-march-26-2024


And, while the appellate court’s decision was good, it wasn’t great. Even a $175 million dollar bond in this case is outrageous. The good news is the amount — a third of the original — signals the court of appeals is leaning toward lopping the head of Judge Engoran’s ridiculous fine.

The appellate judges are probably thinking about the Constitutional issue.

Under the Constitution and settled Supreme Court law, punitive fines generally can’t exceed three times actual damages. Nor can they be so large as to bankrupt someone, or even “impose an undue financial burden on the individual.” Overlarge fines offend the Eighth Amendment’s prohibition of excessive fines. In a major recent case, Timbs v. Indiana (2019), the Court confirmed that the excessive fines clause of the Eighth Amendment applies to the States (not just the federal government), in both civil and criminal cases.

So that’s my best guess as to what the court of appeals had in view. That and politics. If it waived the bond requirement it would have been pilloried. Media doesn’t seem to know what to make of the $175 million bond, which is still a LOT, so they’re mostly ignoring it.

Assuming that Judge Engoran’s fine for “overestimating real estate” stands at all, it seems likely to be greatly reduced.
26   HeadSet   2024 Apr 5, 5:42pm  

Patrick says





It was worse than that. They have now set a precedence for anyone who gets a HELOC or reverse mortgage based on a home value greater than the tax assessment to be guilty of fraud. What happens when a house is bought with a mortgage that exceeds the tax assessment?

Please register to comment:

api   best comments   contact   latest images   memes   one year ago   random   suggestions