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True cost of charging an EV is equivalent to paying $17.33 a gallon.
invite response
2023 Dec 15, 6:13am 7,461 views 131 comments
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89
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 12:25pm
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 12:25pm
WookieMan says
Nothing to laugh about. I’m a numbers guy. I let that do the talking. It has served me well. No reason to change it if it’s not broken.
Eman says
I still believe EV “saves” consumers money in CA. I don’t see myself going back to ICE in this life.
Laugh all you want. Electric will be more expensive. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. I'll own it. I don't think I will be. Willing to take the gamble.
Nothing to laugh about. I’m a numbers guy. I let that do the talking. It has served me well. No reason to change it if it’s not broken.
90
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 10:00pm
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 10:00pm
Agree or disagree is irrelevant. The government will do what it wants to do. The goals, achievable or not, are up for debate. I highly doubt they’ll be achieved, but that’s just my opinion.
20% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2026
60% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2030.
100% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2035.
20% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2026
60% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2030.
100% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2035.
91
WookieMan
2023 Dec 20, 4:33am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 20, 4:33am
Eman says
It's not irrelevant. I don't think you understand what is coming. Government doesn't actually care about clean energy. They are going to tax you. Your numbers now work and you're right NOW. They 100% won't work in the near future.
If they can squeeze 50¢ a gallon out of ICE vehicles you can bet your ass they'll do the same with EV's. It's also a tracking mechanism. Again I'm not saying you're wrong for enjoying it now. What I'm saying is the wild west of EV's is coming to an end. My argument is about infrastructure, not the car. I'm 100% right.
Unless you're cool paying for blown out tires and broken axles than EV's are the future I guess. You cannot take away 3-6% of MFT taxes and expect already shit roads to be better. You say you're a numbers guy. These are real numbers. There's too many people that don't want EV's as well. A majority in fact. So it's an uphill battle to not be taxed more. Get ready for it.
The other thing is and I know it won't move someone like you. You can manage. You could get taxed and not care. The people paying $30-40k for a car they can't afford thinking they're doing the "good" thing are going to be screwed. They're blind. If you get hit it's a big who gives a shit, I got the money. People are being led down a path of getting their asses handed to them. It's fact. EV's 100% will be comparable to ICE vehicles within a few years per mile.
Agree or disagree is irrelevant. The government will do what it wants to do. The goals, achievable or not, are up for debate. I highly doubt they’ll be achieved, but that’s just my opinion.
20% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2026
60% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2030.
100% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2035.
It's not irrelevant. I don't think you understand what is coming. Government doesn't actually care about clean energy. They are going to tax you. Your numbers now work and you're right NOW. They 100% won't work in the near future.
If they can squeeze 50¢ a gallon out of ICE vehicles you can bet your ass they'll do the same with EV's. It's also a tracking mechanism. Again I'm not saying you're wrong for enjoying it now. What I'm saying is the wild west of EV's is coming to an end. My argument is about infrastructure, not the car. I'm 100% right.
Unless you're cool paying for blown out tires and broken axles than EV's are the future I guess. You cannot take away 3-6% of MFT taxes and expect already shit roads to be better. You say you're a numbers guy. These are real numbers. There's too many people that don't want EV's as well. A majority in fact. So it's an uphill battle to not be taxed more. Get ready for it.
The other thing is and I know it won't move someone like you. You can manage. You could get taxed and not care. The people paying $30-40k for a car they can't afford thinking they're doing the "good" thing are going to be screwed. They're blind. If you get hit it's a big who gives a shit, I got the money. People are being led down a path of getting their asses handed to them. It's fact. EV's 100% will be comparable to ICE vehicles within a few years per mile.
92
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 20, 9:56am
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 20, 9:56am
And, as long as electric utility ratepayers are going to get nailed for paying the infrastructure tab so EV owners can charge their cars, it's game over when those rate increases hit.
Whereas the gasoline/diesel distribution infrastructure is pretty self contained so that the entire bill is paid by just the end users (vehicle owners).
Whereas the gasoline/diesel distribution infrastructure is pretty self contained so that the entire bill is paid by just the end users (vehicle owners).
93
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 20, 1:50pm
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 20, 1:50pm
Eman says
There is a small fly in that ointment: Civic and Corolla (Forte, Impresa, etc) will still have an upper leg in ease of refuelling, which is important to dorm- and apt-dwelling young people who mostly buy that type of car. So if $25K Tesla materializes and is eligible for $7500 most of its potential buyers will either not have access to home charging or won't qualify for $7.5K in gubming cheese, or both.
socal2,
The moment Tesla rolls out the $25k EV be it 2025 or 2026, it’s game over for Corolla and Civic. The $7.5k tax credit is good till 2032 IIRC in addition to the state, local and utility company tax rebates.
There is a small fly in that ointment: Civic and Corolla (Forte, Impresa, etc) will still have an upper leg in ease of refuelling, which is important to dorm- and apt-dwelling young people who mostly buy that type of car. So if $25K Tesla materializes and is eligible for $7500 most of its potential buyers will either not have access to home charging or won't qualify for $7.5K in gubming cheese, or both.
94
WookieMan
2023 Dec 20, 2:30pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 20, 2:30pm
Eric Holder says
Bingo. And it's not just that. It's cost per mile. It will 100% be the same as ICE vehicles. Government gives no shits about "green" energy or EV's. For what we sent to Ukraine we could have built out a solar array that would cover at least 50% of our power needs nationwide. They are and will come after your EV. It will not be cheaper.
Tesla and full EV's really only work in warm weather, short commute areas. This isn't debatable. Guess what, 50%+ of the US is not that market. We ain't paying for your luxury toy that you pay nothing towards road maintenance or improvement. The government agrees. People can say I'm wrong. I'm not.
So if $25K Tesla materializes and is eligible for $7500 most of its potential buyers will either not have access to home charging or won't qualify for $7.5K in gubming cheese, or both.
Bingo. And it's not just that. It's cost per mile. It will 100% be the same as ICE vehicles. Government gives no shits about "green" energy or EV's. For what we sent to Ukraine we could have built out a solar array that would cover at least 50% of our power needs nationwide. They are and will come after your EV. It will not be cheaper.
Tesla and full EV's really only work in warm weather, short commute areas. This isn't debatable. Guess what, 50%+ of the US is not that market. We ain't paying for your luxury toy that you pay nothing towards road maintenance or improvement. The government agrees. People can say I'm wrong. I'm not.
95
socal2
2023 Dec 20, 3:03pm
WookieMan says
Doubtful, maybe in Commie Illinois land where they have to tax the living shit out of everything to maintain the jungle society in Chicago.
Even if it ends up costing the same per mile in the future because government taxes the shit out of electricity, driving EV's (especially Tesla's) is far superior and more enjoyable than any primitive ICE car.
There are so many other benefits of EV's beyond the economy. Tesla's are literally the safest cars on the planet right now.
Tesla Model Y wins 2023 safety award with “near-perfect safety rating”
https://thedriven.io/2023/01/23/tesla-model-y-wins-2023-safety-award-with-near-perfect-safety-rating/
It's cost per mile. It will 100% be the same as ICE vehicles.
Doubtful, maybe in Commie Illinois land where they have to tax the living shit out of everything to maintain the jungle society in Chicago.
Even if it ends up costing the same per mile in the future because government taxes the shit out of electricity, driving EV's (especially Tesla's) is far superior and more enjoyable than any primitive ICE car.
There are so many other benefits of EV's beyond the economy. Tesla's are literally the safest cars on the planet right now.
Tesla Model Y wins 2023 safety award with “near-perfect safety rating”
https://thedriven.io/2023/01/23/tesla-model-y-wins-2023-safety-award-with-near-perfect-safety-rating/
96
GNL
2023 Dec 20, 3:10pm
GNL
2023 Dec 20, 3:10pm
I believe the true intent of the green "revolution" is 1. to conserve gas/oil (the last nation with gas/oil wins) and/or 2. such a huge change can move money. Movement of money can make people who are positioned correctly, BIG MONEY.
97
Eman
2023 Dec 20, 3:56pm
Eman
2023 Dec 20, 3:56pm
Talking about the safest car. According to the Firefighter Chief. This was the only person/family that survived the devil slide in his 50 years of experience. It was simply a miracle.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/tesla-crash-warrant-18097182.php
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/tesla-crash-warrant-18097182.php
98
Eman
2023 Dec 20, 4:00pm
Eman
2023 Dec 20, 4:00pm
Eric Holder says
We’ll find out in the coming years. Just like how the skeptics said the Cybertruck would not be produced, or how Tesla would go bankrupt, etc….
Getting the $7.5k tax credit is the easy part IMO. If the kids work, they can claim it. If not, I’m sure their parents will cosign, file the taxes and get the credit.
I maybe jaded as I live in the Bay Area. It seems like people figure out how to charge their EV without issues.
Eman says
socal2,
The moment Tesla rolls out the $25k EV be it 2025 or 2026, it’s game over for Corolla and Civic. The $7.5k tax credit is good till 2032 IIRC in addition to the state, local and utility company tax rebates.
There is a small fly in that ointment: Civic and Corolla (Forte, Impresa, etc) will still have an upper leg in ease of refuelling, which is important to dorm- and apt-dwelling young people who mostly buy that type of car. So if $25K Tesla materializes and is eligible for $7500 most of its potential buyers will either not have access to home charging or won't qualify for $7.5K in gubming cheese, or both.
We’ll find out in the coming years. Just like how the skeptics said the Cybertruck would not be produced, or how Tesla would go bankrupt, etc….
Getting the $7.5k tax credit is the easy part IMO. If the kids work, they can claim it. If not, I’m sure their parents will cosign, file the taxes and get the credit.
I maybe jaded as I live in the Bay Area. It seems like people figure out how to charge their EV without issues.
99
ForcedTQ
2023 Dec 20, 7:57pm
PumpingRedheads says
As it should be for EV users as well, but now co-mingling without separate metering of EV charging circuits has severely muddied the waters.
And, as long as electric utility ratepayers are going to get nailed for paying the infrastructure tab so EV owners can charge their cars, it's game over when those rate increases hit.
Whereas the gasoline/diesel distribution infrastructure is pretty self contained so that the entire bill is paid by just the end users (vehicle owners).
As it should be for EV users as well, but now co-mingling without separate metering of EV charging circuits has severely muddied the waters.
100
GNL
2023 Dec 20, 8:01pm
GNL
2023 Dec 20, 8:01pm
Here's a question: why are Teslas so ugly? The cheap model looks no better than a VW Bug. For $100,000 car/truck comparison, look at the Porsche, Corvette, Escalade or even a decked out F-150. How about the Ford Raptor? Styling is not Tesla's forte.
101
GNL
2023 Dec 21, 5:19am
GNL
2023 Dec 21, 5:19am
This is a joke, right? Not only that but, how long has this truck been in the works? Must be something I'm missing but, what is so different that it can't be to market yet?
102
HeadSet
2023 Dec 21, 7:12am
HeadSet
2023 Dec 21, 7:12am
GNL says
May have to do with standing out. For non-car fans, a Ford F-150, a Chevy Silverado, a GMC Sierra, Toyota Tundra, Nissan Titan, and a RAM 1500 all look pretty much the same. The Tesla truck is obvious to everyone it is a Tesla.
Here's a question: why are Teslas so ugly? The cheap model looks no better than a VW Bug. For $100,000 car/truck comparison, look at the Porsche, Corvette, Escalade or even a decked out F-150. How about the Ford Raptor? Styling is not Tesla's forte.
May have to do with standing out. For non-car fans, a Ford F-150, a Chevy Silverado, a GMC Sierra, Toyota Tundra, Nissan Titan, and a RAM 1500 all look pretty much the same. The Tesla truck is obvious to everyone it is a Tesla.
103
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 7:15am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 7:15am
GNL says
I don't care about car looks in my comments here. A to B. I'd rather have a nice watch or even a nice pair of jeans over an over priced car be it Tesla or Porsche.
I can't drive the point home any more. ANY EV is more expensive MSRP and will in the near future be as expensive or more expensive than ICE cars to operate MPG(equivalent) wise. I can make a golf cart perform the same as any model Tesla for $5k. It's electric motors and batteries. It's not complicated. It's expensive and between labor and minerals used it's a negative big time.
Enjoy. I don't actually care. I'm just warning you Telsa homers that the time of reckoning is coming. You will be charged via tax or utility as much or more than an ICE vehicle. Enjoy the ride. I have. I have no interest in paying 2-3x's as much for a car that has no utility and will be even more expensive in the future.
Here's a question: why are Teslas so ugly? The cheap model looks no better than a VW Bug. For $100,000 car/truck comparison, look at the Porsche, Corvette, Escalade or even a decked out F-150. How about the Ford Raptor? Styling is not Tesla's forte.
I don't care about car looks in my comments here. A to B. I'd rather have a nice watch or even a nice pair of jeans over an over priced car be it Tesla or Porsche.
I can't drive the point home any more. ANY EV is more expensive MSRP and will in the near future be as expensive or more expensive than ICE cars to operate MPG(equivalent) wise. I can make a golf cart perform the same as any model Tesla for $5k. It's electric motors and batteries. It's not complicated. It's expensive and between labor and minerals used it's a negative big time.
Enjoy. I don't actually care. I'm just warning you Telsa homers that the time of reckoning is coming. You will be charged via tax or utility as much or more than an ICE vehicle. Enjoy the ride. I have. I have no interest in paying 2-3x's as much for a car that has no utility and will be even more expensive in the future.
104
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 21, 8:04am
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 21, 8:04am
GNL says
Not sure if serious: ModelS looks very good to me. The rest looks worse because just stretching/sclaing of a good design rarely comes out perfect. Cybertruck is a fucking joke, of course, no argument there, but it was designed by Elon himself, not that Dutch ex-Mazda, ex-Audi designer who penned the ModelS. Porch has his chare of ugly ducklings too (first Panamera, anyone?) and don't get me started on the Bimmer's latest designs.
Here's a question: why are Teslas so ugly? The cheap model looks no better than a VW Bug. For $100,000 car/truck comparison, look at the Porsche, Corvette, Escalade or even a decked out F-150. How about the Ford Raptor? Styling is not Tesla's forte.
Not sure if serious: ModelS looks very good to me. The rest looks worse because just stretching/sclaing of a good design rarely comes out perfect. Cybertruck is a fucking joke, of course, no argument there, but it was designed by Elon himself, not that Dutch ex-Mazda, ex-Audi designer who penned the ModelS. Porch has his chare of ugly ducklings too (first Panamera, anyone?) and don't get me started on the Bimmer's latest designs.
105
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 21, 8:07am
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 21, 8:07am
EVs do depreciate the fastest: https://www.iseecars.com/cars-that-hold-their-value-study
The worst offenders are the top-spec EVs like Plaid Teslas, Taycan Turbo-S, Lucid Air, Audi e-Tron and such. You can buy one of these for literally 1/2 price at 1 y.o.
The worst offenders are the top-spec EVs like Plaid Teslas, Taycan Turbo-S, Lucid Air, Audi e-Tron and such. You can buy one of these for literally 1/2 price at 1 y.o.
106
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 9:44am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 9:44am
Eric Holder says
I paid $1,300 for a 48v golf cart battery. It was cheap Chinese crap (does still work). That's to move a 300lbs vehicle. A car is going to be 10x's. And yes, the batteries do fail.
You have all the same expenses as an ICE vehicle. An ICE motor is going to outlast a EV battery with basic maintenance 10 out of 10 times. It has to be replaced and it's not cheap. Let me know who has replaced an ICE engine (not for upgrades) in the last 20-30 years? No one. It is fact you'll have to replace a battery pack on any EV. I'm not Tesla bashing. It's just fact. That will be 5 figures. And that price won't change with adaptation. Battery prices are not coming down and probably never will.
Factor in the coming price to operate increases, you bought a "luxury" car that will cost as much as a high end Audi, Mercedes, etc. AKA a waste of money and then pay more for electric, registration or however the government WILL rape you. 2025. Government takes a while to realize that it shot itself in the foot on green energy. You cannot reduce tax revenue. It's not even an argument. EV's reduce tax revenue. I don't why this is so complicated for some.
EVs do depreciate the fastest: https://www.iseecars.com/cars-that-hold-their-value-study
The worst offenders are the top-spec EVs like Plaid Teslas, Taycan Turbo-S, Lucid Air, Audi e-Tron and such. You can buy one of these for literally 1/2 price at 1 y.o.
I paid $1,300 for a 48v golf cart battery. It was cheap Chinese crap (does still work). That's to move a 300lbs vehicle. A car is going to be 10x's. And yes, the batteries do fail.
You have all the same expenses as an ICE vehicle. An ICE motor is going to outlast a EV battery with basic maintenance 10 out of 10 times. It has to be replaced and it's not cheap. Let me know who has replaced an ICE engine (not for upgrades) in the last 20-30 years? No one. It is fact you'll have to replace a battery pack on any EV. I'm not Tesla bashing. It's just fact. That will be 5 figures. And that price won't change with adaptation. Battery prices are not coming down and probably never will.
Factor in the coming price to operate increases, you bought a "luxury" car that will cost as much as a high end Audi, Mercedes, etc. AKA a waste of money and then pay more for electric, registration or however the government WILL rape you. 2025. Government takes a while to realize that it shot itself in the foot on green energy. You cannot reduce tax revenue. It's not even an argument. EV's reduce tax revenue. I don't why this is so complicated for some.
107
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 21, 9:57am
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 21, 9:57am
WookieMan says
Just spit my coffee thru my nose while reading that. Damn you Wookie!
:)~
I paid $1,300 for a 48v golf cart battery.
Just spit my coffee thru my nose while reading that. Damn you Wookie!
:)~
108
GNL
2023 Dec 21, 10:04am
GNL
2023 Dec 21, 10:04am
GNL says
This looks like old, tired and Grey communism.
This is a joke, right? Not only that but, how long has this truck been in the works? Must be something I'm missing but, what is so different that it can't be to market yet?
This looks like old, tired and Grey communism.
109
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 21, 10:28am
RWSGFY
2023 Dec 21, 10:28am
You can buy a low-miles engine from a JDM car for ~$1500 and swap it in your garage in 2 weekends using a $150 HF engine hoist. Can you buy a used Tesla battery and swap
it in? Sure, but it won't be $1500 + 150. There is a guy on youtube making videos about fixing Teslas, so it is doable, but def more costly than fixing ICE cars.
it in? Sure, but it won't be $1500 + 150. There is a guy on youtube making videos about fixing Teslas, so it is doable, but def more costly than fixing ICE cars.
110
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 10:34am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 10:34am
PumpingRedheads says
I'm a fucking idiot sometimes. I'll admit that. It's fun to get around town and the cart was free to me. Hopefully a 10 year battery, so amortized it's not that much. New hobby too. I need to keep busy.
WookieMan says
I paid $1,300 for a 48v golf cart battery.
Just spit my coffee thru my nose while reading that. Damn you Wookie!
:)~
I'm a fucking idiot sometimes. I'll admit that. It's fun to get around town and the cart was free to me. Hopefully a 10 year battery, so amortized it's not that much. New hobby too. I need to keep busy.
112
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 7:28pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 7:28pm
PumpingRedheads says
This is what I don't think the EV people understand. I'm not paying for the grid update. I literally won't. Who are they gonna charge to update or add capacity? Not me. EV drivers.
When MFT funds are down 5-10%. Where does that money come from? With inflation and labor costs it's probably closer to 15-20% in states with high EV usage. They don't get it. Just because it's not happening now doesn't mean it's not coming. They will be taxed or have increased electric rates on par with the cost of gas. This is undeniable.
This is what I don't think the EV people understand. I'm not paying for the grid update. I literally won't. Who are they gonna charge to update or add capacity? Not me. EV drivers.
When MFT funds are down 5-10%. Where does that money come from? With inflation and labor costs it's probably closer to 15-20% in states with high EV usage. They don't get it. Just because it's not happening now doesn't mean it's not coming. They will be taxed or have increased electric rates on par with the cost of gas. This is undeniable.
113
Eman
2024 Jan 11, 4:00pm
Eman
2024 Jan 11, 4:00pm
Saw this post on X and thought of this thread. I’m not smart enough to understand the true cost of operating an EV or an ICE vehicle, and which is more subsidized, or more expensive.
https://x.com/nicklasnilsso14/status/1744615674423484786?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
https://x.com/nicklasnilsso14/status/1744615674423484786?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
114
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 11, 5:05pm
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 11, 5:05pm
WookieMan says
Exactly. Or more likely: they are going to TRY to foist that onto non-EV owning ratepayers. And in a lot of cases they are going to succeed. But there will be a limit at which point ratepayers will revolt.
We are already hitting that point with renewables.
This is what I don't think the EV people understand. I'm not paying for the grid update. I literally won't. Who are they gonna charge to update or add capacity? Not me. EV drivers.
Exactly. Or more likely: they are going to TRY to foist that onto non-EV owning ratepayers. And in a lot of cases they are going to succeed. But there will be a limit at which point ratepayers will revolt.
We are already hitting that point with renewables.
115
Eman
2024 Jan 11, 5:22pm
Eman
2024 Jan 11, 5:22pm
I don’t like to rely on others for anything so I installed solar. I designed the system with degradation and future (3rd EV usage) buffer. My solar produces more electricity than I consume. In fact, I’ll be getting a credit from PG&E. Good luck with folks who rely on PG&E for their electricity. I don’t like to screw others, but also don’t like to get screwed.
116
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 11, 5:54pm
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 11, 5:54pm
Eman says
Lot of that is bullshit. Truth is EVs are are way more energy intensive to make. That energy is fossil fuel extensive. (Same applies to polysilicon). And require more minerals than an ICE. Some quite exotic.
Worldwide nickle production alone will have to increase 20x. Copper 4x.
Not gonna happen.
The scaling up of EVs to be a significant portion of the motor vehicle fleet will be impossible to do. You can't just whip up new mines. Nor the processing capacity to do it. It is mostly done in China because they don't have any environmental enforcement and have no qualms about building new coal plants for the power.
Recycling claims are also bullshit just as they are for wind turbines and solar panels UNLESS they are manufactured differently (as in ways that increase costs 4 -6 fold). They can probably get to the lithium in the battery cells, tho.
BUT you need to mine the shit to begin with before it can be recycled. See above.
AND THAT doesn't even take into consideration what's needed to power the damn things...AT SCALE. This is what Wookie is getting into.
New battery tech that uses less/different materials? Like Sodium Ion Batts?
A strawman barfed up by people who can't argue against this. Even the Sodium Ion batteries still need those other minerals.
Graphene buckypaper supercapaciters would be a real game changer that would make a difference, sure. But that is science fiction until you see it mass manufactured. Room temp superconductors even more so.
Saw this post on X and thought of this thread. I’m not smart enough to understand the true cost of operating an EV or an ICE vehicle, and which is more subsidized, or more expensive.
https://x.com/nicklasnilsso14/status/1744615674423484786?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
Lot of that is bullshit. Truth is EVs are are way more energy intensive to make. That energy is fossil fuel extensive. (Same applies to polysilicon). And require more minerals than an ICE. Some quite exotic.
Worldwide nickle production alone will have to increase 20x. Copper 4x.
Not gonna happen.
The scaling up of EVs to be a significant portion of the motor vehicle fleet will be impossible to do. You can't just whip up new mines. Nor the processing capacity to do it. It is mostly done in China because they don't have any environmental enforcement and have no qualms about building new coal plants for the power.
Recycling claims are also bullshit just as they are for wind turbines and solar panels UNLESS they are manufactured differently (as in ways that increase costs 4 -6 fold). They can probably get to the lithium in the battery cells, tho.
BUT you need to mine the shit to begin with before it can be recycled. See above.
AND THAT doesn't even take into consideration what's needed to power the damn things...AT SCALE. This is what Wookie is getting into.
New battery tech that uses less/different materials? Like Sodium Ion Batts?
A strawman barfed up by people who can't argue against this. Even the Sodium Ion batteries still need those other minerals.
Graphene buckypaper supercapaciters would be a real game changer that would make a difference, sure. But that is science fiction until you see it mass manufactured. Room temp superconductors even more so.
117
WookieMan
2024 Jan 12, 12:08am
WookieMan
2024 Jan 12, 12:08am
UkraineIsFucked says
I generally don't get into the battery itself. It's hard to break through a cult through that avenue. If we double EV's to 6-10% of the overall market, where in the flying fuck is the electric coming from? I'm glad Eman can charge for $0 dollars. That's less than 1% of EV drivers. Where is the money coming from for solar? Where is the money coming from for power? ME. Coal.
It's literally the least efficient, most polluting means of travel. More expensive out the gate when you can save $10-30k with a hybrid, pay gas AND still come out way ahead. This is math. As I'll continue to say, enjoy Tesla, I've had fun driving them. It's not cheaper and it's not green at all.
AND THAT doesn't even take into consideration what's needed to power the damn things...AT SCALE. This is what Wookie is getting into
I generally don't get into the battery itself. It's hard to break through a cult through that avenue. If we double EV's to 6-10% of the overall market, where in the flying fuck is the electric coming from? I'm glad Eman can charge for $0 dollars. That's less than 1% of EV drivers. Where is the money coming from for solar? Where is the money coming from for power? ME. Coal.
It's literally the least efficient, most polluting means of travel. More expensive out the gate when you can save $10-30k with a hybrid, pay gas AND still come out way ahead. This is math. As I'll continue to say, enjoy Tesla, I've had fun driving them. It's not cheaper and it's not green at all.
118
SunnyvaleCA
2024 Jan 12, 1:28am
WookieMan says
Around here we have that beaten easily... hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles!
Hydrogen is stripped from natural gas (releasing loads of CO2) then compressed and cooled (takes loads of mechanical energy, so maybe 30% loss of energy). While waiting to be put into a car (the Toyota Murai, to be specific), it is constantly evaporating to keep the pressure from exploding the holding tank (maybe 5% loss per day). Once in the Murai it continues to evaporate, but is eventually run through a fuel cell to generate electricity (10% loss in that chemical -> electrical conversion) but doesn't just drive an electric motor! No! The fuel cell isn't powerful enough to run an electric motor when the vehicle is accelerating, so the fuel cell charges a LiON battery (5% loss) and then the LiON battery runs the electric motor (5% loss). The other benefit of the LiON battery is that the fuel cell process isn't reversible, so the LiON handles the regenerative braking.
If we had infinite fusion power we could use hydrogen as energy storage because we could create it from electrolysis of water. Although electrolysis is an even less efficient starting point, if you you have unlimited fusion energy, go for it! But even then, the system would be much more expensive than just synthesizing methane and re-introducing the Honda Civic GX — a viable ICE car that you filled up at home from natural gas.
[EVs are] literally the least efficient, most polluting means of travel.
Around here we have that beaten easily... hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles!
Hydrogen is stripped from natural gas (releasing loads of CO2) then compressed and cooled (takes loads of mechanical energy, so maybe 30% loss of energy). While waiting to be put into a car (the Toyota Murai, to be specific), it is constantly evaporating to keep the pressure from exploding the holding tank (maybe 5% loss per day). Once in the Murai it continues to evaporate, but is eventually run through a fuel cell to generate electricity (10% loss in that chemical -> electrical conversion) but doesn't just drive an electric motor! No! The fuel cell isn't powerful enough to run an electric motor when the vehicle is accelerating, so the fuel cell charges a LiON battery (5% loss) and then the LiON battery runs the electric motor (5% loss). The other benefit of the LiON battery is that the fuel cell process isn't reversible, so the LiON handles the regenerative braking.
If we had infinite fusion power we could use hydrogen as energy storage because we could create it from electrolysis of water. Although electrolysis is an even less efficient starting point, if you you have unlimited fusion energy, go for it! But even then, the system would be much more expensive than just synthesizing methane and re-introducing the Honda Civic GX — a viable ICE car that you filled up at home from natural gas.
119
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 12, 7:08am
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 12, 7:08am
SunnyvaleCA says
They have developed fuel cells that can strip the hydrogen from a hydrocarbon like methane. Don't think it is commercializable tho.
If we had infinite fusion power we could use hydrogen as energy storage because we could create it from electrolysis of water. Although electrolysis is an even less efficient starting point, if you you have unlimited fusion energy, go for it! But even then, the system would be much more expensive than just synthesizing methane and re-introducing the Honda Civic GX — a viable ICE car that you filled up at home from natural gas.
They have developed fuel cells that can strip the hydrogen from a hydrocarbon like methane. Don't think it is commercializable tho.
120
RWSGFY
2024 Jan 12, 8:10am
RWSGFY
2024 Jan 12, 8:10am
Jump on Google maps, search for Hydrogen fuel stations and marvel at horror stories in the reviews section.
121
SoTex
2024 Jan 12, 8:17am
SoTex
2024 Jan 12, 8:17am
SunnyvaleCA says
I've been stuck behind those (or maybe the same guy) in stop and go traffic on my daily commute in SD. It shoots what looks like a urine stream out the back of the car and when we got lucky enough to reach maybe 40mph it would bounce off of the pavement and hit my windshield. I hate getting behind those things.
Toyota Murai
I've been stuck behind those (or maybe the same guy) in stop and go traffic on my daily commute in SD. It shoots what looks like a urine stream out the back of the car and when we got lucky enough to reach maybe 40mph it would bounce off of the pavement and hit my windshield. I hate getting behind those things.
122
RWSGFY
2024 Jan 12, 8:21am
RWSGFY
2024 Jan 12, 8:21am
just_passing_through says
It's water, but it is annoying AF.
PS. They are practically giving them away now: you can buy a 2yo off-lease Mirai for $18-19K and it comes with a $15K "gas card".
SunnyvaleCA says
Toyota Murai
I've been stuck behind those (or maybe the same guy) in stop and go traffic on my daily commute in SD. It shoots what looks like a urine stream out the back of the car and when we got lucky enough to reach maybe 40mph it would bounce off of the pavement and hit my windshield. I hate getting behind those things.
It's water, but it is annoying AF.
PS. They are practically giving them away now: you can buy a 2yo off-lease Mirai for $18-19K and it comes with a $15K "gas card".
123
SunnyvaleCA
2024 Jan 12, 1:20pm
just_passing_through says
That's annoying. I've only seen steam coming out of them, but maybe I was lucky enough to have one clogging the road in front of me on a warm day.
SunnyvaleCA says
Toyota Murai
I've been stuck behind those (or maybe the same guy) in stop and go traffic on my daily commute in SD. It shoots what looks like a urine stream out the back of the car and when we got lucky enough to reach maybe 40mph it would bounce off of the pavement and hit my windshield. I hate getting behind those things.
That's annoying. I've only seen steam coming out of them, but maybe I was lucky enough to have one clogging the road in front of me on a warm day.
124
GNL
2024 Jan 12, 4:13pm
GNL
2024 Jan 12, 4:13pm
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hertz-sell-20-000-evs-143449475.html
(Bloomberg) -- Hertz Global Holdings Inc. plans to sell a third of its US electric vehicle fleet and reinvest in gas-powered cars due to weak demand and high repair costs for its battery-powered options.
(Bloomberg) -- Hertz Global Holdings Inc. plans to sell a third of its US electric vehicle fleet and reinvest in gas-powered cars due to weak demand and high repair costs for its battery-powered options.
125
socal2
2024 Jan 12, 4:37pm
EV sales reached a record 18% of total Global Vehicle Sales in 2023. The Tesla Model Y is the best selling car IN THE ENTIRE WORLD in 2023.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/electric-vehicle-sales-by-model-2023/#:~:text=Electric%20vehicle%20(EV)%20sales%20are,increasingly%20look%20to%20electric%20options
You guys act like there is no demand for good EV's like Tesla. Most of this growth kicked in before the big government incentives took place. Face it, if you don't have to constantly tow heavy loads or drive cross country, Tesla's are superior vehicles for the majority of the population that can charge their cars at home at night.
Tesla is scaling and revolutionizing battery and manufacturing production like no other breaking all automotive records in terms of margins and production efficiency.
It will take 25 years to beef up our energy grid, power plants (hopefully new nuke plants) and additional mining/processing to meet total demand. But if we can build the Empire State Building in under 2 years 100 years ago, I am confident we can still build great things in this country if we aren't retarded.
Within 50 years we will have nearly a closed loop system where we will have enough batteries to recycle avoiding the need for new mining. It is already much easier/cheaper to process some rare earth metals out of existing batteries than mining/processing new.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/electric-vehicle-sales-by-model-2023/#:~:text=Electric%20vehicle%20(EV)%20sales%20are,increasingly%20look%20to%20electric%20options
You guys act like there is no demand for good EV's like Tesla. Most of this growth kicked in before the big government incentives took place. Face it, if you don't have to constantly tow heavy loads or drive cross country, Tesla's are superior vehicles for the majority of the population that can charge their cars at home at night.
Tesla is scaling and revolutionizing battery and manufacturing production like no other breaking all automotive records in terms of margins and production efficiency.
It will take 25 years to beef up our energy grid, power plants (hopefully new nuke plants) and additional mining/processing to meet total demand. But if we can build the Empire State Building in under 2 years 100 years ago, I am confident we can still build great things in this country if we aren't retarded.
Within 50 years we will have nearly a closed loop system where we will have enough batteries to recycle avoiding the need for new mining. It is already much easier/cheaper to process some rare earth metals out of existing batteries than mining/processing new.
126
WookieMan
2024 Jan 12, 5:26pm
WookieMan
2024 Jan 12, 5:26pm
socal2 says
We can't and won't. That has been my point. I never even mentioned sales and don't care. EV owners are going to pay for that build out and probably be dead before it becomes realistic. In the meantime you WILL be taxed extra via vehicle registration for MFT AND electric rates to build the new power plants. It's not an if conversation. It's when and I think it will be 2025.
I understand the tech. I have an electric golf cart to tool around town. I installed everything myself. I know how long it takes to charge. I have a miniature version of a Tesla. I've driven a Tesla multiple times. We're talking about costs here. They're going up. Or you can drop another $30k on a solar setup like Eman did. A Tesla is a $100k waste if you want it zero energy. That money could have been put into more productive investments that would easily cover a $10k/yr gas bill (high).
Trust me, your EV registration is probably going to go up by a factor of 5 and maybe more annually. Depending on state. My wife is a prominent national figure in road building industry. MFT is the majority of taxes used for roads and EV's aren't paying a dime. That time is coming to an end whether you like it or not. If people pay X% for MFT with gas, they're going to get it from EV drivers as well. You can't just use infrastructure for free.
The mining is wasteful for sure. We have an entire system in place for ICE vehicles. The future is hybrid. If we just double EV charging our grid is fucked. So everyone is fucked because you want an electric car?? You've gotta a pay for it and you guys will. Trust me. The day of reckoning is coming.
It will take 25 years to beef up our energy grid, power plants (hopefully new nuke plants) and additional mining/processing to meet total demand. But if we can build the Empire State Building in under 2 years 100 years ago, I am confident we can still build great things in this country if we aren't retarded.
We can't and won't. That has been my point. I never even mentioned sales and don't care. EV owners are going to pay for that build out and probably be dead before it becomes realistic. In the meantime you WILL be taxed extra via vehicle registration for MFT AND electric rates to build the new power plants. It's not an if conversation. It's when and I think it will be 2025.
I understand the tech. I have an electric golf cart to tool around town. I installed everything myself. I know how long it takes to charge. I have a miniature version of a Tesla. I've driven a Tesla multiple times. We're talking about costs here. They're going up. Or you can drop another $30k on a solar setup like Eman did. A Tesla is a $100k waste if you want it zero energy. That money could have been put into more productive investments that would easily cover a $10k/yr gas bill (high).
Trust me, your EV registration is probably going to go up by a factor of 5 and maybe more annually. Depending on state. My wife is a prominent national figure in road building industry. MFT is the majority of taxes used for roads and EV's aren't paying a dime. That time is coming to an end whether you like it or not. If people pay X% for MFT with gas, they're going to get it from EV drivers as well. You can't just use infrastructure for free.
The mining is wasteful for sure. We have an entire system in place for ICE vehicles. The future is hybrid. If we just double EV charging our grid is fucked. So everyone is fucked because you want an electric car?? You've gotta a pay for it and you guys will. Trust me. The day of reckoning is coming.
127
socal2
2024 Jan 12, 6:35pm
WookieMan says
We can reuse what we mine over and over again, as opposed to burning oil once.
We have an entire electric grid already in place for EV's. Same shit we have been using over 100 years. Just plug it in at your home like you do your phone. Tesla is already beefing up electric grids all over the world deploying their major Mega storage battery packs. More work to be done for sure as more EV's come on line.
Hybrids have tremendous complexity, costs and more to go wrong having ICE engines, electric motors, batteries and transmissions just to get an extra 50-100 miles of range. Hybrids are tremendously lame.
WookieMan says
I can afford a luxury sedan. It is not really a cost issue for me, even though I have been making out like a bandit economically for the last half decade driving my Bolt and Model Y.
So even if it costs more (it doesn't right now) I would be willing to pay the premium to enjoy superior driving experience, fun and practicality of a Tesla over anything else.
Seriously, if someone offered me a Plaid Model X or S or Cybertruck over a Bugatti or Lamborghini - I am taking the Tesla every time.
The mining is wasteful for sure. We have an entire system in place for ICE vehicles. The future is hybrid.
We can reuse what we mine over and over again, as opposed to burning oil once.
We have an entire electric grid already in place for EV's. Same shit we have been using over 100 years. Just plug it in at your home like you do your phone. Tesla is already beefing up electric grids all over the world deploying their major Mega storage battery packs. More work to be done for sure as more EV's come on line.
Hybrids have tremendous complexity, costs and more to go wrong having ICE engines, electric motors, batteries and transmissions just to get an extra 50-100 miles of range. Hybrids are tremendously lame.
WookieMan says
We're talking about costs here. They're going up.
I can afford a luxury sedan. It is not really a cost issue for me, even though I have been making out like a bandit economically for the last half decade driving my Bolt and Model Y.
So even if it costs more (it doesn't right now) I would be willing to pay the premium to enjoy superior driving experience, fun and practicality of a Tesla over anything else.
Seriously, if someone offered me a Plaid Model X or S or Cybertruck over a Bugatti or Lamborghini - I am taking the Tesla every time.
128
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 14, 8:08am
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2024 Jan 14, 8:08am
socal2 says
Not going to happen.
.socal2 says
Didn't require new mines, rare earths nor a rebuilt grid.
How do you function in life?
It will take 25 years to beef up our energy grid, power plants (hopefully new nuke plants) and additional mining/processing to meet total demand
Not going to happen.
.socal2 says
But if we can build the Empire State Building in under 2 years 100 years ago
Didn't require new mines, rare earths nor a rebuilt grid.
How do you function in life?
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By Olivia Murray
In October, I wrote an essay on a “bombshell report” from a Texas think tank “which revealed that the actual cost of rechargeable cars and the E.V. industry is, in reality, much higher than they’re leading us to believe.”
The report is around 20-pages long, so I was only able to cover one of the explosive revelations—the average battery-powered car (E.V.) would cost “approximately $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period” were it not for the “staggering” handouts from the taxpayer via an extortionary and feckless government—but there were more.
Now, not only were the energy experts able to quantify the additional cost over time, but they were also able to put a dollar amount on the real cost of charging the vehicle, translated into price per gallon of gasoline. As you might guess, the price is astronomical, but that’s not the the end of it.
While EV advocates claim charging costs are equivalent to $1.21-per-gallon gasoline, the real amount is an order of magnitude more.
Including the charging equipment, subsidies from governments and utilities and other frequently excluded expenses, the true cost of charging an EV is equivalent to $17.33-per-gallon gasoline — but the EV owner pays less than 7% of that.
So if the E.V. owner pays less than 7% of that massively inflated cost to “fuel” a car, that means more than 93% of the financial burden falls on the taxpayer—as the NY Post authors also write:
This is socialism for the rich: a transfer of costs from higher net-worth individuals to middle- and lower-income taxpayers.
It’s the equivalent of levying taxes and fees on public-transportation users and those who walk or bicycle to work and using the money to reduce the price of gasoline.
At this stage, E.V.s, if forced to stand on their own, are an utter failure, and as I noted in my previous blog, bad ideas and inferior products only find security in a “free” market… rigorously controlled by big government fascists. If our market were truly free, an extremely expensive car that can spontaneously combust, only works in a limited temperature range, occasionally malfunctions and locks occupants inside before rolling backwards into bodies of water, and costs $17.33 per “gallon” to “fuel” up, would be dead on arrival—as it should be.