patrick.net
An Antidote to Corporate Media
1,248,868 comments by 14,891 users - 6DOF, HeadSet, stereotomy online now
True cost of charging an EV is equivalent to paying $17.33 a gallon.
invite response
2023 Dec 15, 6:13am 7,581 views 131 comments
by GNL ➕follow (0) 💰tip ignore
« First « Previous Comments 68 - 107 of 131 Next » Last » Search these comments
68
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 6:56am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 6:56am
Eman says
For now is all I'll say. We don't have to agree. Your RE advice is sound so I don't think you're a bull shitter. I just think you're wrong on EV's long term. We have more oil long term for centuries. We haven't yet full explored the minerals needed for EV's. I don't think there's enough. The only thing going is demographics and population decline at the moment to make it work... for now.
EV's simply are not the future without grid expansion. That involves nukes. That takes a decade plus. We don't have the electric capacity for much more EV's. Roads are already shit and we lose MTF money if you're not paying for gas. It's the system we have. Love or hate it. EV's are in a bad spot in my opinion and a lot of it legal and legislative. Your Tesla in the near future will cost more than gas when you factor everything in. You still pay for the solar panels regardless if they're financed. You paid for the car itself. And you still pay for electric as solar homes still mostly rely on the grid. Especially this time of year even in the sunniest of regions.
Again... 6 figures to save maybe, a big maybe $100/mo? You can toss $100k into a CD right now and make more than the gas savings. My take is I'm not throwing it on a roof or into a small car with little to no utility. Just me.
Solar is financed 100%. It will pay for itself while I don’t get raped by the annual electricity increase.
For now is all I'll say. We don't have to agree. Your RE advice is sound so I don't think you're a bull shitter. I just think you're wrong on EV's long term. We have more oil long term for centuries. We haven't yet full explored the minerals needed for EV's. I don't think there's enough. The only thing going is demographics and population decline at the moment to make it work... for now.
EV's simply are not the future without grid expansion. That involves nukes. That takes a decade plus. We don't have the electric capacity for much more EV's. Roads are already shit and we lose MTF money if you're not paying for gas. It's the system we have. Love or hate it. EV's are in a bad spot in my opinion and a lot of it legal and legislative. Your Tesla in the near future will cost more than gas when you factor everything in. You still pay for the solar panels regardless if they're financed. You paid for the car itself. And you still pay for electric as solar homes still mostly rely on the grid. Especially this time of year even in the sunniest of regions.
Again... 6 figures to save maybe, a big maybe $100/mo? You can toss $100k into a CD right now and make more than the gas savings. My take is I'm not throwing it on a roof or into a small car with little to no utility. Just me.
69
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 18, 8:45am
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 18, 8:45am
Well said Wookie, I’d only add that the point of this OP is to raise awareness that ”green technology” is costing taxpayers and others who use the roads way more than Tesla would have you believe.
Drive a Tesla if you like it. I support your decision. But people need to know that the push for EV is going to have unintended consequences due to the facts. The facts are batteries are an inefficient store of energy compared to gasoline and diesel. The facts are that cold weather severely affects battery efficiency. The facts are many people need to tow heavy trailers and/or travel long distances without stopping for hours along the way. The facts are EV owners thus far have been heavily subsidized by the rest of us. The facts are that politics is pushing EV so the EV push is not about economics or helping people better themselves, it is about helping elites gain further control and getting their minions to accept an even lower standard of living.
Drive a Tesla if you like it. I support your decision. But people need to know that the push for EV is going to have unintended consequences due to the facts. The facts are batteries are an inefficient store of energy compared to gasoline and diesel. The facts are that cold weather severely affects battery efficiency. The facts are many people need to tow heavy trailers and/or travel long distances without stopping for hours along the way. The facts are EV owners thus far have been heavily subsidized by the rest of us. The facts are that politics is pushing EV so the EV push is not about economics or helping people better themselves, it is about helping elites gain further control and getting their minions to accept an even lower standard of living.
70
socal2
2023 Dec 18, 9:19am
WookieMan says
No one is disputing this. I think they will be producing new ICE cars for at least another quarter century.
WookieMan says
My Y cost less than half that and the new Model 3 is cheaper than most new ICE sedans. What are you talking about?
EV's simply are not the future without grid expansion. That involves nukes. That takes a decade plus.
No one is disputing this. I think they will be producing new ICE cars for at least another quarter century.
WookieMan says
Again... 6 figures to save maybe, a big maybe $100/mo?
My Y cost less than half that and the new Model 3 is cheaper than most new ICE sedans. What are you talking about?
71
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 10:59am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 10:59am
socal2 says
You haven't been looking at ICE vehicles it appears. M3 vs Civic
We're just talking new. These are totally comparable cars. $24k is cheaper than $39k. Financed you're looking at an easy $100 and potentially $200/mo. Paying cash, you could invest that $15k and make the difference in gas. Now throw in used cars that are just fine with 20k miles and there's another $7-10k savings.
I'm sorry bud, but you're defending something that doesn't make sense. It's a luxury. Enjoy it if you want. Some people don't want to pay more for a car thinking they're doing something good or saving money. You're not. That's fact.
My Y cost less than half that and the new Model 3 is cheaper than most new ICE sedans. What are you talking about?
You haven't been looking at ICE vehicles it appears. M3 vs Civic
We're just talking new. These are totally comparable cars. $24k is cheaper than $39k. Financed you're looking at an easy $100 and potentially $200/mo. Paying cash, you could invest that $15k and make the difference in gas. Now throw in used cars that are just fine with 20k miles and there's another $7-10k savings.
I'm sorry bud, but you're defending something that doesn't make sense. It's a luxury. Enjoy it if you want. Some people don't want to pay more for a car thinking they're doing something good or saving money. You're not. That's fact.
72
socal2
2023 Dec 18, 11:11am
WookieMan says
That is just MSRP with no dealer fees and you are comparing a base model Civic with a Tesla??
Please.
You haven't been looking at ICE vehicles it appears. M3 vs Civic
That is just MSRP with no dealer fees and you are comparing a base model Civic with a Tesla??
Please.
73
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 18, 11:14am
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 18, 11:14am
socal2 says
If the goal is to have a car of a certain size and # of doors and save money - why not?
WookieMan says
You haven't been looking at ICE vehicles it appears. M3 vs Civic
That is just MSRP with no dealer fees and you are comparing a base model Civic with a Tesla??
Please.
If the goal is to have a car of a certain size and # of doors and save money - why not?
74
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 18, 11:30am
PeopleUnited
2023 Dec 18, 11:30am
socal2 says
Wookie was referencing the cost of installing solar charging capabilities and solar in general as EMan has done to battle rising electric rates. EMan is glad he did, but Wookie believes the upfront cost probably negates the nominal monthly benefits of solar. YMMV
I know where I live it would probably take 20 years just to break even with solar. It might make more sense to go with propane long term but propane costs can change too.
My Y cost less than half that and the new Model 3 is cheaper than most new ICE sedans. What are you talking about?
Wookie was referencing the cost of installing solar charging capabilities and solar in general as EMan has done to battle rising electric rates. EMan is glad he did, but Wookie believes the upfront cost probably negates the nominal monthly benefits of solar. YMMV
I know where I live it would probably take 20 years just to break even with solar. It might make more sense to go with propane long term but propane costs can change too.
75
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 1:22pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 1:22pm
socal2 says
Yes. I've been in both of these actual cars. Either way $15k has to come from someone to buy the Tesla. It's A to B. I don't care if you prefer a Tesla. That $15k has to come from somewhere.
Say you own a car for 5 years. That $15k comes out to $250/mo. I don't even care about models as I can get a car even cheaper than the Honda. I can get an ICE car and maintain it for under $250 a month all day. And I'm telling you, not predicting, telling you, your Tesla will cost as much as an ICE vehicle getting fueled up AND you'll have paid more.
Drive what you want to drive. Math is math. Your Tesla is more expensive and will 100% be more expensive in the future. You got lucky and bought at the right time. I don't blame you or am I jealous. I don't want a Tesla and that's okay. Enjoy yours for now. If you make good $$$$ you'll be fine, just know it's going to be more expensive in the near future.
That is just MSRP with no dealer fees and you are comparing a base model Civic with a Tesla??
Please.
Yes. I've been in both of these actual cars. Either way $15k has to come from someone to buy the Tesla. It's A to B. I don't care if you prefer a Tesla. That $15k has to come from somewhere.
Say you own a car for 5 years. That $15k comes out to $250/mo. I don't even care about models as I can get a car even cheaper than the Honda. I can get an ICE car and maintain it for under $250 a month all day. And I'm telling you, not predicting, telling you, your Tesla will cost as much as an ICE vehicle getting fueled up AND you'll have paid more.
Drive what you want to drive. Math is math. Your Tesla is more expensive and will 100% be more expensive in the future. You got lucky and bought at the right time. I don't blame you or am I jealous. I don't want a Tesla and that's okay. Enjoy yours for now. If you make good $$$$ you'll be fine, just know it's going to be more expensive in the near future.
76
Eman
2023 Dec 18, 2:03pm
Eman
2023 Dec 18, 2:03pm
This was why I asked for an apple to apple comparison. Speak fact rather than theoretical.
FACT: “Tesla Model 3 drivers traded in Honda Civics and Toyota Tacomas most frequently to get their electric vehicle, a new study shows.”
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-driver-s-trade-in-most-frequent-honda-civic-toyota-tacoma/
The question is what kind of cars do people trade in for a Honda Civic? Tesla? 🤷♂️
FACT: “Tesla Model 3 drivers traded in Honda Civics and Toyota Tacomas most frequently to get their electric vehicle, a new study shows.”
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-driver-s-trade-in-most-frequent-honda-civic-toyota-tacoma/
The question is what kind of cars do people trade in for a Honda Civic? Tesla? 🤷♂️
77
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 3:23pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 18, 3:23pm
Eman says
Come on dude. I respect you more than most users here. You linked a Tesla site man. I stated fact and provided MSRP of similar models of cars. Sure a Civic doesn't jump off the line. It 100% is a similar car. $15k doesn't show up out of no where is my point. I don't care if over 10 years electric is cheaper. It's not when you factor in ALL costs. Like $15k more for the base model of a Tesla for a comparable car.
I'd love to be making shit up. I wouldn't have to discuss this. You guys know I'm right. Again, enjoy it for now. It ain't lasting forever.
The question is what kind of cars do people trade in for a Honda Civic? Tesla? 🤷♂️
Come on dude. I respect you more than most users here. You linked a Tesla site man. I stated fact and provided MSRP of similar models of cars. Sure a Civic doesn't jump off the line. It 100% is a similar car. $15k doesn't show up out of no where is my point. I don't care if over 10 years electric is cheaper. It's not when you factor in ALL costs. Like $15k more for the base model of a Tesla for a comparable car.
I'd love to be making shit up. I wouldn't have to discuss this. You guys know I'm right. Again, enjoy it for now. It ain't lasting forever.
78
Eman
2023 Dec 18, 5:57pm
Eman
2023 Dec 18, 5:57pm
It’s not about being right or wrong. It’s about comparing apples to apples. If it’s about getting point A to B, why buy a Tesla model 3 when a Bolt will do for $10k less? Why drive a Benz S550 when a Benz C350 will do for $50k less?
As SoCal mentioned above, the author and some folks here talk 💩 about Tesla/EV while the money/incentive is there for any car company to take. Also, Tesla paid back the loan with interest while GM got bailed out and never paid back the money. Where’s the outrage? Where’s the study about the cost per gallon for GM? Solyndra solar company took $500M from Obama and filed BK the next year. Where’s the study on that? The list goes on….
In CA, the projection is 32% increase in the cost of electricity by 2026. PG&E just got approved for 13% increase in 2024 so another 19% more to go in 2025 and 2026. I bought my EV in 2017 and saw electricity rate went up like 120% in 6 years. I saw the writing on the wall so I got solar.
I always go back to my thesis of “do what I can control”. No reason to get pissed off over stuff I can’t control.
It seems like we’re not going to agree on this so just let it go. Looking forward to 2025 and see how your prediction plays out.
As SoCal mentioned above, the author and some folks here talk 💩 about Tesla/EV while the money/incentive is there for any car company to take. Also, Tesla paid back the loan with interest while GM got bailed out and never paid back the money. Where’s the outrage? Where’s the study about the cost per gallon for GM? Solyndra solar company took $500M from Obama and filed BK the next year. Where’s the study on that? The list goes on….
In CA, the projection is 32% increase in the cost of electricity by 2026. PG&E just got approved for 13% increase in 2024 so another 19% more to go in 2025 and 2026. I bought my EV in 2017 and saw electricity rate went up like 120% in 6 years. I saw the writing on the wall so I got solar.
I always go back to my thesis of “do what I can control”. No reason to get pissed off over stuff I can’t control.
It seems like we’re not going to agree on this so just let it go. Looking forward to 2025 and see how your prediction plays out.
79
WookieMan
2023 Dec 19, 4:52am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 19, 4:52am
Eman says
I'm not looking to agree. I think that's pretty clear. Forget the utilities (though they matter). I don't think I'm being heard. Your government is going to tax the hell out of your car even if you have a grid free house. It's simple with vehicle registration. Roads don't maintain themselves for fun.
It's math. You can't have a car paying 0% taxes and using the roads that others are paying ridiculous taxes for AND they get subsidized. It's IL, but CA is substantially worse. Look at that screen shot. They will 100% tax you're EV at similar amounts. Government gets its money. Don't know this for sure, but I know the inner workings of government than probably any user here. Your EV "gas tax" is coming. That's the point I've been making. It won't be cheaper than an ICE vehicle even if you ignore price of the vehicle. It will be more expensive.
If you don't know anyone personally in government then you don't know. I am an elected official. I see multiple elected officials daily basically that have control over this. EV's are going to be taxed. Depends on how slow or fast CA wants to enact it.
Also I have no issue with Tesla or Musk. He's gaming a system and the bigs failed at taking advantage. Who cares? My point is the days of cheap EV usage are coming to an end. It will 100% be the same cost as an ICE with a higher MSRP sticker price. Where there's a market the government will take it from you. There's no disputing this. And I know it's coming.
It seems like we’re not going to agree on this so just let it go. Looking forward to 2025 and see how your prediction plays out.
I'm not looking to agree. I think that's pretty clear. Forget the utilities (though they matter). I don't think I'm being heard. Your government is going to tax the hell out of your car even if you have a grid free house. It's simple with vehicle registration. Roads don't maintain themselves for fun.
It's math. You can't have a car paying 0% taxes and using the roads that others are paying ridiculous taxes for AND they get subsidized. It's IL, but CA is substantially worse. Look at that screen shot. They will 100% tax you're EV at similar amounts. Government gets its money. Don't know this for sure, but I know the inner workings of government than probably any user here. Your EV "gas tax" is coming. That's the point I've been making. It won't be cheaper than an ICE vehicle even if you ignore price of the vehicle. It will be more expensive.
If you don't know anyone personally in government then you don't know. I am an elected official. I see multiple elected officials daily basically that have control over this. EV's are going to be taxed. Depends on how slow or fast CA wants to enact it.
Also I have no issue with Tesla or Musk. He's gaming a system and the bigs failed at taking advantage. Who cares? My point is the days of cheap EV usage are coming to an end. It will 100% be the same cost as an ICE with a higher MSRP sticker price. Where there's a market the government will take it from you. There's no disputing this. And I know it's coming.
81
socal2
2023 Dec 19, 8:20am
WookieMan says
You keep acting like it is going to be a light switch change. Maybe in crap-ass Illinois where your taxes and politicians are more retarded and corrupt than most the country and even California? But the Commies running our government are true believers in Climate Change and don't want to fuck over the transition to EV's by taxing them too hard early on.
So I fully expect that taxes on EV charging and registration will gradually phase in as more cars transition to electric - it is totally fair and needed to maintain infrastructure. No one is arguing this.
Meanwhile, I have been benefitting the last half decade driving the fastest and most advanced cars I could afford and those EV savings I already enjoyed might get gobbled up down the road in new fees. But at the same time, EV prices have come down dramatically. My first Chevy Bolt MSRP was over $45K back in 2018, now it is $30K.
I'm not looking to agree. I think that's pretty clear. Forget the utilities (though they matter). I don't think I'm being heard. Your government is going to tax the hell out of your car even if you have a grid free house. It's simple with vehicle registration. Roads don't maintain themselves for fun.
You keep acting like it is going to be a light switch change. Maybe in crap-ass Illinois where your taxes and politicians are more retarded and corrupt than most the country and even California? But the Commies running our government are true believers in Climate Change and don't want to fuck over the transition to EV's by taxing them too hard early on.
So I fully expect that taxes on EV charging and registration will gradually phase in as more cars transition to electric - it is totally fair and needed to maintain infrastructure. No one is arguing this.
Meanwhile, I have been benefitting the last half decade driving the fastest and most advanced cars I could afford and those EV savings I already enjoyed might get gobbled up down the road in new fees. But at the same time, EV prices have come down dramatically. My first Chevy Bolt MSRP was over $45K back in 2018, now it is $30K.
82
WookieMan
2023 Dec 19, 8:50am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 19, 8:50am
socal2 says
You're preaching to the choir my friend. It will be overnight. Literal flip of a switch. You appease 93% of the taxpayers in any corrupt state or keep the 3% happy? Edits after in the next comment. Slippery pinky finger and I somehow posted this.
You keep acting like it is going to be a light switch change. Maybe in crap-ass Illinois where your taxes and politicians are more retarded and corrupt than most the country and even California?
You're preaching to the choir my friend. It will be overnight. Literal flip of a switch. You appease 93% of the taxpayers in any corrupt state or keep the 3% happy? Edits after in the next comment. Slippery pinky finger and I somehow posted this.
83
WookieMan
2023 Dec 19, 9:00am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 19, 9:00am
socal2 says
Last comment was good but meant to post in one comment.
I've said multiple times over and over that you SHOULD take advantage. Long term it's not going to be cheaper is all I'm saying. This is coming from the people that tax you. Not me. It will be a flick of the switch as well and you're going to be pissed. I wouldn't blame you. I'm not the bad guy. Don't shoot the messenger. I've made predictions. Shoot me if I'm wrong. Until then I'd be cautious with what you think is a winner is all.
Also, $30k for a Bolt is hysterical. I get the prices are coming down. But seriously, that's moving in the right direction?? I can buy a lot of things for $30k that benefit me more than a car. I could get a cheaper car. You EV guys had made this a religion. I'm not arguing that they're less cost for NOW. I'm talking future. I know what I know.
But the Commies running our government are true believers in Climate Change and don't want to fuck over the transition to EV's by taxing them too hard early on.
Last comment was good but meant to post in one comment.
I've said multiple times over and over that you SHOULD take advantage. Long term it's not going to be cheaper is all I'm saying. This is coming from the people that tax you. Not me. It will be a flick of the switch as well and you're going to be pissed. I wouldn't blame you. I'm not the bad guy. Don't shoot the messenger. I've made predictions. Shoot me if I'm wrong. Until then I'd be cautious with what you think is a winner is all.
Also, $30k for a Bolt is hysterical. I get the prices are coming down. But seriously, that's moving in the right direction?? I can buy a lot of things for $30k that benefit me more than a car. I could get a cheaper car. You EV guys had made this a religion. I'm not arguing that they're less cost for NOW. I'm talking future. I know what I know.
85
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 10:27am
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 10:27am
@Wookieman,
What is long term to you? A decade or three?
What is the future to you? 2-5 years out or longer?
CA has already implemented a $175/year registration fee for EV to compensate for the “gas tax”. Backing out the number, it’s about right.
CA’s gas is freaking expensive compared to the nation due to all the required additives they make the refineries mix in with gas for “clean” burning. 😂 I still believe EV “saves” consumers money in CA. I don’t see myself going back to ICE in this life.
What is long term to you? A decade or three?
What is the future to you? 2-5 years out or longer?
CA has already implemented a $175/year registration fee for EV to compensate for the “gas tax”. Backing out the number, it’s about right.
CA’s gas is freaking expensive compared to the nation due to all the required additives they make the refineries mix in with gas for “clean” burning. 😂 I still believe EV “saves” consumers money in CA. I don’t see myself going back to ICE in this life.
86
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 10:29am
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 10:29am
The reason I ask for your time frame so I can do a “cost analysis” for all to see vs. the funny number from the author presented
87
WookieMan
2023 Dec 19, 11:21am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 19, 11:21am
Eman says
Laugh all you want. Electric will be more expensive. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. I'll own it. I don't think I will be. Willing to take the gamble.
I still believe EV “saves” consumers money in CA. I don’t see myself going back to ICE in this life.
Laugh all you want. Electric will be more expensive. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. I'll own it. I don't think I will be. Willing to take the gamble.
88
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 12:24pm
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 12:24pm
@socal2,
The moment Tesla rolls out the $25k EV be it 2025 or 2026, it’s game over for Corolla and Civic. The $7.5k tax credit is good till 2032 IIRC in addition to the state, local and utility company tax rebates.
The moment Tesla rolls out the $25k EV be it 2025 or 2026, it’s game over for Corolla and Civic. The $7.5k tax credit is good till 2032 IIRC in addition to the state, local and utility company tax rebates.
89
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 12:25pm
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 12:25pm
WookieMan says
Nothing to laugh about. I’m a numbers guy. I let that do the talking. It has served me well. No reason to change it if it’s not broken.
Eman says
I still believe EV “saves” consumers money in CA. I don’t see myself going back to ICE in this life.
Laugh all you want. Electric will be more expensive. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. I'll own it. I don't think I will be. Willing to take the gamble.
Nothing to laugh about. I’m a numbers guy. I let that do the talking. It has served me well. No reason to change it if it’s not broken.
90
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 10:00pm
Eman
2023 Dec 19, 10:00pm
Agree or disagree is irrelevant. The government will do what it wants to do. The goals, achievable or not, are up for debate. I highly doubt they’ll be achieved, but that’s just my opinion.
20% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2026
60% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2030.
100% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2035.
20% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2026
60% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2030.
100% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2035.
91
WookieMan
2023 Dec 20, 4:33am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 20, 4:33am
Eman says
It's not irrelevant. I don't think you understand what is coming. Government doesn't actually care about clean energy. They are going to tax you. Your numbers now work and you're right NOW. They 100% won't work in the near future.
If they can squeeze 50¢ a gallon out of ICE vehicles you can bet your ass they'll do the same with EV's. It's also a tracking mechanism. Again I'm not saying you're wrong for enjoying it now. What I'm saying is the wild west of EV's is coming to an end. My argument is about infrastructure, not the car. I'm 100% right.
Unless you're cool paying for blown out tires and broken axles than EV's are the future I guess. You cannot take away 3-6% of MFT taxes and expect already shit roads to be better. You say you're a numbers guy. These are real numbers. There's too many people that don't want EV's as well. A majority in fact. So it's an uphill battle to not be taxed more. Get ready for it.
The other thing is and I know it won't move someone like you. You can manage. You could get taxed and not care. The people paying $30-40k for a car they can't afford thinking they're doing the "good" thing are going to be screwed. They're blind. If you get hit it's a big who gives a shit, I got the money. People are being led down a path of getting their asses handed to them. It's fact. EV's 100% will be comparable to ICE vehicles within a few years per mile.
Agree or disagree is irrelevant. The government will do what it wants to do. The goals, achievable or not, are up for debate. I highly doubt they’ll be achieved, but that’s just my opinion.
20% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2026
60% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2030.
100% of all vehicles sold to be zero emissions by 2035.
It's not irrelevant. I don't think you understand what is coming. Government doesn't actually care about clean energy. They are going to tax you. Your numbers now work and you're right NOW. They 100% won't work in the near future.
If they can squeeze 50¢ a gallon out of ICE vehicles you can bet your ass they'll do the same with EV's. It's also a tracking mechanism. Again I'm not saying you're wrong for enjoying it now. What I'm saying is the wild west of EV's is coming to an end. My argument is about infrastructure, not the car. I'm 100% right.
Unless you're cool paying for blown out tires and broken axles than EV's are the future I guess. You cannot take away 3-6% of MFT taxes and expect already shit roads to be better. You say you're a numbers guy. These are real numbers. There's too many people that don't want EV's as well. A majority in fact. So it's an uphill battle to not be taxed more. Get ready for it.
The other thing is and I know it won't move someone like you. You can manage. You could get taxed and not care. The people paying $30-40k for a car they can't afford thinking they're doing the "good" thing are going to be screwed. They're blind. If you get hit it's a big who gives a shit, I got the money. People are being led down a path of getting their asses handed to them. It's fact. EV's 100% will be comparable to ICE vehicles within a few years per mile.
92
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 20, 9:56am
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 20, 9:56am
And, as long as electric utility ratepayers are going to get nailed for paying the infrastructure tab so EV owners can charge their cars, it's game over when those rate increases hit.
Whereas the gasoline/diesel distribution infrastructure is pretty self contained so that the entire bill is paid by just the end users (vehicle owners).
Whereas the gasoline/diesel distribution infrastructure is pretty self contained so that the entire bill is paid by just the end users (vehicle owners).
93
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 20, 1:50pm
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 20, 1:50pm
Eman says
There is a small fly in that ointment: Civic and Corolla (Forte, Impresa, etc) will still have an upper leg in ease of refuelling, which is important to dorm- and apt-dwelling young people who mostly buy that type of car. So if $25K Tesla materializes and is eligible for $7500 most of its potential buyers will either not have access to home charging or won't qualify for $7.5K in gubming cheese, or both.
socal2,
The moment Tesla rolls out the $25k EV be it 2025 or 2026, it’s game over for Corolla and Civic. The $7.5k tax credit is good till 2032 IIRC in addition to the state, local and utility company tax rebates.
There is a small fly in that ointment: Civic and Corolla (Forte, Impresa, etc) will still have an upper leg in ease of refuelling, which is important to dorm- and apt-dwelling young people who mostly buy that type of car. So if $25K Tesla materializes and is eligible for $7500 most of its potential buyers will either not have access to home charging or won't qualify for $7.5K in gubming cheese, or both.
94
WookieMan
2023 Dec 20, 2:30pm
WookieMan
2023 Dec 20, 2:30pm
Eric Holder says
Bingo. And it's not just that. It's cost per mile. It will 100% be the same as ICE vehicles. Government gives no shits about "green" energy or EV's. For what we sent to Ukraine we could have built out a solar array that would cover at least 50% of our power needs nationwide. They are and will come after your EV. It will not be cheaper.
Tesla and full EV's really only work in warm weather, short commute areas. This isn't debatable. Guess what, 50%+ of the US is not that market. We ain't paying for your luxury toy that you pay nothing towards road maintenance or improvement. The government agrees. People can say I'm wrong. I'm not.
So if $25K Tesla materializes and is eligible for $7500 most of its potential buyers will either not have access to home charging or won't qualify for $7.5K in gubming cheese, or both.
Bingo. And it's not just that. It's cost per mile. It will 100% be the same as ICE vehicles. Government gives no shits about "green" energy or EV's. For what we sent to Ukraine we could have built out a solar array that would cover at least 50% of our power needs nationwide. They are and will come after your EV. It will not be cheaper.
Tesla and full EV's really only work in warm weather, short commute areas. This isn't debatable. Guess what, 50%+ of the US is not that market. We ain't paying for your luxury toy that you pay nothing towards road maintenance or improvement. The government agrees. People can say I'm wrong. I'm not.
95
socal2
2023 Dec 20, 3:03pm
WookieMan says
Doubtful, maybe in Commie Illinois land where they have to tax the living shit out of everything to maintain the jungle society in Chicago.
Even if it ends up costing the same per mile in the future because government taxes the shit out of electricity, driving EV's (especially Tesla's) is far superior and more enjoyable than any primitive ICE car.
There are so many other benefits of EV's beyond the economy. Tesla's are literally the safest cars on the planet right now.
Tesla Model Y wins 2023 safety award with “near-perfect safety rating”
https://thedriven.io/2023/01/23/tesla-model-y-wins-2023-safety-award-with-near-perfect-safety-rating/
It's cost per mile. It will 100% be the same as ICE vehicles.
Doubtful, maybe in Commie Illinois land where they have to tax the living shit out of everything to maintain the jungle society in Chicago.
Even if it ends up costing the same per mile in the future because government taxes the shit out of electricity, driving EV's (especially Tesla's) is far superior and more enjoyable than any primitive ICE car.
There are so many other benefits of EV's beyond the economy. Tesla's are literally the safest cars on the planet right now.
Tesla Model Y wins 2023 safety award with “near-perfect safety rating”
https://thedriven.io/2023/01/23/tesla-model-y-wins-2023-safety-award-with-near-perfect-safety-rating/
96
GNL
2023 Dec 20, 3:10pm
GNL
2023 Dec 20, 3:10pm
I believe the true intent of the green "revolution" is 1. to conserve gas/oil (the last nation with gas/oil wins) and/or 2. such a huge change can move money. Movement of money can make people who are positioned correctly, BIG MONEY.
97
Eman
2023 Dec 20, 3:56pm
Eman
2023 Dec 20, 3:56pm
Talking about the safest car. According to the Firefighter Chief. This was the only person/family that survived the devil slide in his 50 years of experience. It was simply a miracle.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/tesla-crash-warrant-18097182.php
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/tesla-crash-warrant-18097182.php
98
Eman
2023 Dec 20, 4:00pm
Eman
2023 Dec 20, 4:00pm
Eric Holder says
We’ll find out in the coming years. Just like how the skeptics said the Cybertruck would not be produced, or how Tesla would go bankrupt, etc….
Getting the $7.5k tax credit is the easy part IMO. If the kids work, they can claim it. If not, I’m sure their parents will cosign, file the taxes and get the credit.
I maybe jaded as I live in the Bay Area. It seems like people figure out how to charge their EV without issues.
Eman says
socal2,
The moment Tesla rolls out the $25k EV be it 2025 or 2026, it’s game over for Corolla and Civic. The $7.5k tax credit is good till 2032 IIRC in addition to the state, local and utility company tax rebates.
There is a small fly in that ointment: Civic and Corolla (Forte, Impresa, etc) will still have an upper leg in ease of refuelling, which is important to dorm- and apt-dwelling young people who mostly buy that type of car. So if $25K Tesla materializes and is eligible for $7500 most of its potential buyers will either not have access to home charging or won't qualify for $7.5K in gubming cheese, or both.
We’ll find out in the coming years. Just like how the skeptics said the Cybertruck would not be produced, or how Tesla would go bankrupt, etc….
Getting the $7.5k tax credit is the easy part IMO. If the kids work, they can claim it. If not, I’m sure their parents will cosign, file the taxes and get the credit.
I maybe jaded as I live in the Bay Area. It seems like people figure out how to charge their EV without issues.
99
ForcedTQ
2023 Dec 20, 7:57pm
PumpingRedheads says
As it should be for EV users as well, but now co-mingling without separate metering of EV charging circuits has severely muddied the waters.
And, as long as electric utility ratepayers are going to get nailed for paying the infrastructure tab so EV owners can charge their cars, it's game over when those rate increases hit.
Whereas the gasoline/diesel distribution infrastructure is pretty self contained so that the entire bill is paid by just the end users (vehicle owners).
As it should be for EV users as well, but now co-mingling without separate metering of EV charging circuits has severely muddied the waters.
100
GNL
2023 Dec 20, 8:01pm
GNL
2023 Dec 20, 8:01pm
Here's a question: why are Teslas so ugly? The cheap model looks no better than a VW Bug. For $100,000 car/truck comparison, look at the Porsche, Corvette, Escalade or even a decked out F-150. How about the Ford Raptor? Styling is not Tesla's forte.
101
GNL
2023 Dec 21, 5:19am
GNL
2023 Dec 21, 5:19am
This is a joke, right? Not only that but, how long has this truck been in the works? Must be something I'm missing but, what is so different that it can't be to market yet?
102
HeadSet
2023 Dec 21, 7:12am
HeadSet
2023 Dec 21, 7:12am
GNL says
May have to do with standing out. For non-car fans, a Ford F-150, a Chevy Silverado, a GMC Sierra, Toyota Tundra, Nissan Titan, and a RAM 1500 all look pretty much the same. The Tesla truck is obvious to everyone it is a Tesla.
Here's a question: why are Teslas so ugly? The cheap model looks no better than a VW Bug. For $100,000 car/truck comparison, look at the Porsche, Corvette, Escalade or even a decked out F-150. How about the Ford Raptor? Styling is not Tesla's forte.
May have to do with standing out. For non-car fans, a Ford F-150, a Chevy Silverado, a GMC Sierra, Toyota Tundra, Nissan Titan, and a RAM 1500 all look pretty much the same. The Tesla truck is obvious to everyone it is a Tesla.
103
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 7:15am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 7:15am
GNL says
I don't care about car looks in my comments here. A to B. I'd rather have a nice watch or even a nice pair of jeans over an over priced car be it Tesla or Porsche.
I can't drive the point home any more. ANY EV is more expensive MSRP and will in the near future be as expensive or more expensive than ICE cars to operate MPG(equivalent) wise. I can make a golf cart perform the same as any model Tesla for $5k. It's electric motors and batteries. It's not complicated. It's expensive and between labor and minerals used it's a negative big time.
Enjoy. I don't actually care. I'm just warning you Telsa homers that the time of reckoning is coming. You will be charged via tax or utility as much or more than an ICE vehicle. Enjoy the ride. I have. I have no interest in paying 2-3x's as much for a car that has no utility and will be even more expensive in the future.
Here's a question: why are Teslas so ugly? The cheap model looks no better than a VW Bug. For $100,000 car/truck comparison, look at the Porsche, Corvette, Escalade or even a decked out F-150. How about the Ford Raptor? Styling is not Tesla's forte.
I don't care about car looks in my comments here. A to B. I'd rather have a nice watch or even a nice pair of jeans over an over priced car be it Tesla or Porsche.
I can't drive the point home any more. ANY EV is more expensive MSRP and will in the near future be as expensive or more expensive than ICE cars to operate MPG(equivalent) wise. I can make a golf cart perform the same as any model Tesla for $5k. It's electric motors and batteries. It's not complicated. It's expensive and between labor and minerals used it's a negative big time.
Enjoy. I don't actually care. I'm just warning you Telsa homers that the time of reckoning is coming. You will be charged via tax or utility as much or more than an ICE vehicle. Enjoy the ride. I have. I have no interest in paying 2-3x's as much for a car that has no utility and will be even more expensive in the future.
104
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 21, 8:04am
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 21, 8:04am
GNL says
Not sure if serious: ModelS looks very good to me. The rest looks worse because just stretching/sclaing of a good design rarely comes out perfect. Cybertruck is a fucking joke, of course, no argument there, but it was designed by Elon himself, not that Dutch ex-Mazda, ex-Audi designer who penned the ModelS. Porch has his chare of ugly ducklings too (first Panamera, anyone?) and don't get me started on the Bimmer's latest designs.
Here's a question: why are Teslas so ugly? The cheap model looks no better than a VW Bug. For $100,000 car/truck comparison, look at the Porsche, Corvette, Escalade or even a decked out F-150. How about the Ford Raptor? Styling is not Tesla's forte.
Not sure if serious: ModelS looks very good to me. The rest looks worse because just stretching/sclaing of a good design rarely comes out perfect. Cybertruck is a fucking joke, of course, no argument there, but it was designed by Elon himself, not that Dutch ex-Mazda, ex-Audi designer who penned the ModelS. Porch has his chare of ugly ducklings too (first Panamera, anyone?) and don't get me started on the Bimmer's latest designs.
105
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 21, 8:07am
Eric Holder
2023 Dec 21, 8:07am
EVs do depreciate the fastest: https://www.iseecars.com/cars-that-hold-their-value-study
The worst offenders are the top-spec EVs like Plaid Teslas, Taycan Turbo-S, Lucid Air, Audi e-Tron and such. You can buy one of these for literally 1/2 price at 1 y.o.
The worst offenders are the top-spec EVs like Plaid Teslas, Taycan Turbo-S, Lucid Air, Audi e-Tron and such. You can buy one of these for literally 1/2 price at 1 y.o.
106
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 9:44am
WookieMan
2023 Dec 21, 9:44am
Eric Holder says
I paid $1,300 for a 48v golf cart battery. It was cheap Chinese crap (does still work). That's to move a 300lbs vehicle. A car is going to be 10x's. And yes, the batteries do fail.
You have all the same expenses as an ICE vehicle. An ICE motor is going to outlast a EV battery with basic maintenance 10 out of 10 times. It has to be replaced and it's not cheap. Let me know who has replaced an ICE engine (not for upgrades) in the last 20-30 years? No one. It is fact you'll have to replace a battery pack on any EV. I'm not Tesla bashing. It's just fact. That will be 5 figures. And that price won't change with adaptation. Battery prices are not coming down and probably never will.
Factor in the coming price to operate increases, you bought a "luxury" car that will cost as much as a high end Audi, Mercedes, etc. AKA a waste of money and then pay more for electric, registration or however the government WILL rape you. 2025. Government takes a while to realize that it shot itself in the foot on green energy. You cannot reduce tax revenue. It's not even an argument. EV's reduce tax revenue. I don't why this is so complicated for some.
EVs do depreciate the fastest: https://www.iseecars.com/cars-that-hold-their-value-study
The worst offenders are the top-spec EVs like Plaid Teslas, Taycan Turbo-S, Lucid Air, Audi e-Tron and such. You can buy one of these for literally 1/2 price at 1 y.o.
I paid $1,300 for a 48v golf cart battery. It was cheap Chinese crap (does still work). That's to move a 300lbs vehicle. A car is going to be 10x's. And yes, the batteries do fail.
You have all the same expenses as an ICE vehicle. An ICE motor is going to outlast a EV battery with basic maintenance 10 out of 10 times. It has to be replaced and it's not cheap. Let me know who has replaced an ICE engine (not for upgrades) in the last 20-30 years? No one. It is fact you'll have to replace a battery pack on any EV. I'm not Tesla bashing. It's just fact. That will be 5 figures. And that price won't change with adaptation. Battery prices are not coming down and probably never will.
Factor in the coming price to operate increases, you bought a "luxury" car that will cost as much as a high end Audi, Mercedes, etc. AKA a waste of money and then pay more for electric, registration or however the government WILL rape you. 2025. Government takes a while to realize that it shot itself in the foot on green energy. You cannot reduce tax revenue. It's not even an argument. EV's reduce tax revenue. I don't why this is so complicated for some.
107
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 21, 9:57am
DemocratsAreTotallyFucked
2023 Dec 21, 9:57am
WookieMan says
Just spit my coffee thru my nose while reading that. Damn you Wookie!
:)~
I paid $1,300 for a 48v golf cart battery.
Just spit my coffee thru my nose while reading that. Damn you Wookie!
:)~
« First « Previous Comments 68 - 107 of 131 Next » Last » Search these comments
By Olivia Murray
In October, I wrote an essay on a “bombshell report” from a Texas think tank “which revealed that the actual cost of rechargeable cars and the E.V. industry is, in reality, much higher than they’re leading us to believe.”
The report is around 20-pages long, so I was only able to cover one of the explosive revelations—the average battery-powered car (E.V.) would cost “approximately $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period” were it not for the “staggering” handouts from the taxpayer via an extortionary and feckless government—but there were more.
Now, not only were the energy experts able to quantify the additional cost over time, but they were also able to put a dollar amount on the real cost of charging the vehicle, translated into price per gallon of gasoline. As you might guess, the price is astronomical, but that’s not the the end of it.
While EV advocates claim charging costs are equivalent to $1.21-per-gallon gasoline, the real amount is an order of magnitude more.
Including the charging equipment, subsidies from governments and utilities and other frequently excluded expenses, the true cost of charging an EV is equivalent to $17.33-per-gallon gasoline — but the EV owner pays less than 7% of that.
So if the E.V. owner pays less than 7% of that massively inflated cost to “fuel” a car, that means more than 93% of the financial burden falls on the taxpayer—as the NY Post authors also write:
This is socialism for the rich: a transfer of costs from higher net-worth individuals to middle- and lower-income taxpayers.
It’s the equivalent of levying taxes and fees on public-transportation users and those who walk or bicycle to work and using the money to reduce the price of gasoline.
At this stage, E.V.s, if forced to stand on their own, are an utter failure, and as I noted in my previous blog, bad ideas and inferior products only find security in a “free” market… rigorously controlled by big government fascists. If our market were truly free, an extremely expensive car that can spontaneously combust, only works in a limited temperature range, occasionally malfunctions and locks occupants inside before rolling backwards into bodies of water, and costs $17.33 per “gallon” to “fuel” up, would be dead on arrival—as it should be.