patrick.net

https://www.anarchonomicon.com/p/national-honor-matters-epstein-wont

Trust the plan! Two more weeks!

But after the growing list of recent revelations…that Epstein raped and trafficked girls as young as 11, that he trafficked over American 1000 girls, Pam Bondi revealling that the government indeed had a list of Epstein’s clients and accomplices “on her desk” waiting to be released…

And then Trump’s plain decision to back-peddle, cover it up, and claim no such list existed… or rather it existed but was a hoax “By Obama” ...

Over 1000 (almost entirely white) American girls raped and sex trafficked by the agents of a foreign government…

That’s an attack comparable to Pearl Harbor, 9/11, or The Oct 7th Attacks.

Over 1000, directly targeted Civilian. Female. Children. In peacetime.

By contrast Japan’s surprise attack at Pearl Harbor seems downright gentlemanly… They were just sneaky not announcing their declaration of war until after the attack. Their target was a legitimate military target, and they were remarkably moral in their targeting, with only 68 civilians killed compared to over 2300 Military deaths ...

https://www.wpxi.com/news/local/president-trump-says-epstein-stole-young-women-mar-a-lago-spa-including-virginia-giuffre/6WIVWXRYCVFETKY3MWPJ4JXAWM/

President Donald Trump said Tuesday that Jeffrey Epstein “stole” young women who worked for the spa at Mar-a-Lago, the latest evolution in his description of how their highly scrutinized relationship ended years ago.

One of the women, he acknowledged, was Virginia Giuffre, who was among Epstein’s most well-known sex trafficking accusers.

Eric Holder says

The Epstein list does not exist, it also was created by Obama/Biden/Hillary, Bill Clinton's name has 28 entries in it, Donald Trump's name might have been planted there by the above mentioned creators of the list, but they decided to not release it during 2024 campaign even though Donald Trump's team made the list into a big election issue.

Did I summarize the whole covfefe correctly?

Also, there was an anonymous court filing reported that made a bunch of allegations but went nowhere, apparently Epstein has no Estate to Sue? Or it was just a political filing with the point being to smear.

Then a long rant about National Honor, tons of dark hints, and no meat anywhere.

Mossad, one of the greatest intel agencies in the world, used the daughter of a loudmouth Media Magnate and a braggart nobody to build a huge Egyptian Pyramid on an island, and a huge house in Manhattan, who recruited late-age teens to hang out with mostly has-beens and celebs, in the most obvious manner possible that allowed no plausible deniability whatsoever.

Patrick says

Trust the plan! Two more weeks!

But after the growing list of recent revelations…that Epstein raped and trafficked girls as young as 11, that he trafficked over American 1000 girls, Pam Bondi revealling that the government indeed had a list of Epstein’s clients and accomplices “on her desk” waiting to be released…

And then Trump’s plain decision to back-peddle, cover it up, and claim no such list existed… or rather it existed but was a hoax “By Obama” ...

Over 1000 (almost entirely white) American girls raped and sex trafficked by the agents of a foreign government…

You're not paying attention Patrick. You need listen to the tag-team Epstein experts here on this blog; all of the girls were 17+ and they were doing this because they wanted to. As far as 'agents of a foreign government ....' who on earth can that possibly be referring to?

Remember:

There are no lists and there are no files

There are no innocent children that have been raped by powerful politicians, etc.

There are no videos that prove differently

It's all just one gigantic hoax, probably done by those sneaky Russians

Think: Obama, Obama, Obama

Israel is our good and trusted friend, as in the absolute bestest in the entire universe.

PanicanDemoralizer says

Mossad, one of the greatest intel agencies in the world, used the daughter of a loudmouth Media Magnate and a braggart nobody to build a huge Egyptian Pyramid on an island, and a huge house in Manhattan, who recruited late-age teens to hang out with mostly has-beens and celebs, in the most obvious manner possible that allowed no plausible deniability whatsoever.

Another in a long line of weird comments. The 'loudmouth Media Magnate' was billionaire media mogul Robert Maxwell, who also had very close ties to the Mossad. When Maxwell died, Israel honored him with a rare State Funeral for being a 'great friend to the State of Israel.' His daughter Gislaine Maxwell just so happened to have been extremely close to one Jeffrey Epstein. Regarding the 'huge Egyptian Pyramid on an island,' claim, in typical lying fashion, did not and does not exist. Epstein did build a strange 'temple' on his island ... a huge Egyptian Pyramid? NO !

'Late-age teens' is another in a long line of lies from this liar in order to portray the false narrative that Epstein did not use 1,000+ underage minors in his political blackmail operation. It was all just a wild party involving "late-age teens" that were more than willing to participate, with the obvious fake implication that Israel harbors no guilt when it comes to the Epstein pedophile operation.

Funny thing. Why is Gislaine Maxwell in prison, why was Jeffrey Epstein arrested, and why have there been 25+ settlements with victims, including the $16 MILLION paid out by Prince Andrew to Virginia Giuffre, if this was all consensual involving 'late-age teens?'

Past Epsteins: Charlie Manson and Hugh Hefner.

Charlie was CIA recruit to use underage girls (all of his close female lieutenants were daughters of Intel or high military) to trap celebrities and music industry figures Diddy style. Spahn Ranch had high rental costs that were covered by somebody, not a group of ragtag hippies dumpster diving for food or exploiting the elderly Spahn.

The false flag faked Manson murders and trials were likewise a deception to disgrace the hippie movement. Sharon Tate's father was high military Intel, and she lived out her life as an added sister to her family. She was likely estranged from Polanski for a while, and her child was probably Jay Sebring's, not Polanski's. Expert prison observers said that 'Charlie' (who was dragged out periodically for publicity) appeared with hair and garb disallowed by the prison systems.

Bugliosi's book 'Helter Skelter' was fiction, and the trials were publicity stunts. Sound familiar, like fake Federal trials of Sam of FTX, Jizzlaine, and Diddy? Bugliosi was nearly insane with reactivity to journalists who questioned his participation and the staged presentations, constantly threatening to sue. He was forced to live out his life on the lies.

An odd postscript is Tarantino's movie 'Once Upon A Time In Hollywood' (fairy tale title) in which he broadcasts more or less the Tate fraud by altering the end of his movie to show Tate and Sebring untouched while the Manson 'crew' attack a fictitious declining actor and his stunt double next door and are killed in the attack. So, it appears the Hollywood cognoscenti are aware of the fraud.

Roman Polanski was a participant in the Tate fraud. He was imported with his Polish team of film makers to purposely introduce the predictive programming of Satanism into Hollywood movies. He was undone by his own pedophile appetites. Of course, as a protected asset, he was given 'safe passage' to non extradition, though his indictments remain active in Los Angeles.

Another Epstein is Richard Branson, arguably worse, but untouched, resident on another island and a hop and skip from Epstein Island. The honey traps never go away, they just change venue.

They don't care what you believe as long as what you believe is a lie. Fake facts and fake histories are up and down through the 'educational' system as well as the Mockingbird captured media.

Whenever the population starts synchronizing on a 'truth', the red light starts flashing in Switzerland. The public needs to believe only controlled lies, cartoons and movies. Such absolute devotion to inversions and deceptions indicate worship of Lucifer and Satanic entities, it's their religion. It doesn't matter what 'we' believe, it's what 'they' believe.

RayAmerica says

Funny thing. Why is Gislaine Maxwell in prison, why was Jeffrey Epstein arrested, and why have there been 25+ settlements with victims, including the $16 MILLION paid out by Prince Andrew to Virginia Giuffre, if this was all consensual involving 'late-age teens?'

They want it to go away and they can make it happen. Maxwell and Epstein trafficked minors and adult aged people.

Put this way, before we almost got in trouble for it, we almost got hit with a trafficking charge for my nephew. We have to get a notarized document every time we travel now. All it takes is one verifiable time it was actual trafficking with no relation. Given we don't have guardianship and he's black, we were huge targets by authorities.

Maxwell and Epstein were moving kids around without adult permission. And yes, this could be 18+. The end result is kind of moot. They were moving people without acceptance or permission via a private jet to fancy places. After that no one really knows what happened. Prince Andrew has the money to make it go away so he's not associated with the whole thing. Settlements even when innocent are easier than dealing with shit for 2-5 years and court cases. Happens all the time.

Names for those who give a shit any more.



Epstein names pdf

I looked at the file Patrick, I didn't see Bill Gates there. That doesn't make sense, they spoke and met a lot.

Fortwaye says

That doesn't make sense, they spoke and met a lot.

I have not a care in the world for Bill Gates. Wouldn't shed a tear tomorrow morning if he died. We have to stop this guilt by association crap though with Epstein. People continue to keep saying certain people flew to Epstein Island. That's a complete impossibility of flying TO THE ISLAND. They flew to St. Thomas at best and then maybe went to the island. Which isn't trackable.

You can't incriminate someone without proof. This is where the island will never get anyone. Those videos are all gone or at least in another country at this point. NY, FL and NM are your only bets for a "list" if that's what you're looking for.

Patrick says

If the system can’t be fixed from within, then what is the alternative?

And do you really want to live to see that day?

The Antichrist is likely waiting in the wings to establish the new world order totalitarian government.

So I guess it’s pick your poison people. Imperfect Trump and democratic elections with some semblance of freedom, or the new world order totalitarian world government and no meaningful freedom of choice.

Ceffer says

Names for those who give a shit any more.



Epstein names pdf

So it says Scottland Yard and The Home Office fucked little girls?

Ceffer says

Names for those who give a shit any more.

What really matters is the video evidence.

Why is there no catalogue of who is in those videos, and doing what?

PeopleUnited says

Patrick says

If the system can’t be fixed from within, then what is the alternative?

And do you really want to live to see that day?

The Antichrist is likely waiting in the wings to establish the new world order totalitarian government.

So I guess it’s pick your poison people. Imperfect Trump and democratic elections with some semblance of freedom, or the new world order totalitarian world government and no meaningful freedom of choice.

tree of liberty if you remember. Jefferson wrote about it. It’ll happen sooner or later, because system will crash down one way or another. God punishes on his own timing.

https://nypost.com/2025/08/01/us-news/virginia-giuffres-family-calls-for-epstein-docs-to-be-released-believe-ghislaine-maxwell-deserves-to-rot-in-prison/

Virginia Giuffre’s family calls for Epstein docs to be released — and for Ghislaine Maxwell to be left to ‘rot in prison’

Fortwaye says

It’ll happen sooner or later, because system will crash down one way or another. God punishes on his own timing.

My point exactly. Do you really want to live to see that day?

https://rudy.substack.com/p/valuation-ambiguity

Nice discussion between Tucker Carlson and Ana Kasparian of the generally left-wing Young Turks:

“I would like to know, and I think this is very important: whether we live in a sovereign country where our politicians are actually representing us, or if we're living in a situation where a foreign country might have blackmail on our politicians or people in positions of power, and as a result that blackmail is being used to force these politicians to pursue policies that are not beneficial to the American people, but beneficial to a foreign country…”

- Ana Kasparian

https://rudy.substack.com/p/valuation-ambiguity

A fascinating now-scrubbed Medium article posted on the day Epstein was suicided: "Jeffrey Epstein won the Oklahoma Powerball lottery, July 2, 2008"

https://web.archive.org/web/20190813131609/https://medium.com/@nathanielhebert/did-jeffrey-epstein-win-the-oklahoma-powerball-lottery-july-2-2008-d23d2b0933e5

The link between Jeffrey Epstein and Zorro Trust is very apparent, so the
question that begs asking. Did Jeffrey Epstein receive $29.3 million in the
form of an anonymous trust from the Oklahoma Powerball Lottery? And
why did it happen after July 1st, 2008, just as Epstein started to serve his
18-month jail term in Florida?

Patrick says

Did Jeffrey Epstein receive $29.3 million in the
form of an anonymous trust from the Oklahoma Powerball Lottery?

Laundering again with the aid and abetment of the political apparatus.

https://www.ryandawson.org/p/billionaire-pedophiles-and-sexual

Everyone knows at least something about Epstein and Maxwell and their partners Brunel, Wexner, Bronfman, Black, and Dubin. I spoke at length about Epstein with Martyr Made here:

https://substack.com/home/post/p-169714115 Epstein Deep Lore & More w/Ryan Dawson

But there are also the cases of Miller, Kraft, Jefferies, Raniere, Nygard, four of whom are billionaires. No blackmail involved. But they set up complex rings with co-conspirators to abuse women and girls and in Jefferies’s case boys.

Robert Miller - Serial raped high school girls and younger, in Canada. Often had threesomes with underage girls in hotel and then in homes he bought just for that purpose. Raymond Poulet his associate was just arrested last week. MIller bought a home from Charles Bronfman

https://globalnews.ca/news/10960114/sex-class-action-greenlit-against-montreal-billionaire-robert-miller/

Robert Kraft - On the board for Leon Black’s Global Apollo. , founder of FCAS, Foundation to Combat Antisemitism which is reality just targets the BDS movement. Got caught paying prostitutes for hand and blow jobs at a massage parlor.

https://www.thecut.com/2019/02/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-charged-with-soliciting-sex.html

Keith Raniere - Ran NXIVM sex cult as was financed by Bronfmans. Used to brand women as one brands a cow with a hot poker.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/20/us/nxivm-keith-raniere-restitution/index.html

Mike Jefferies - Homosexual sex trafficking ring, hired by Wexner

https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/former-ceo-abercrombie-fitch-and-two-other-individuals-charged-sex-trafficking-and

Peter Nygard - He sexually assaulted, drugged and raped young girls form Canada to the Bahamas. Also friends with Prince Andrew

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cxe2e0m0g3do

They all know each other. They all either trafficked people or were customers of trafficked people.

HeadSet says

Let's see how this ages.

Right, my bet is that Trump is just another bullshitter, and no one with real influence will be arrested no matter what the crime.

https://slaynews.com/news/royal-family-insider-epstein-sold-videos-prince-andrew-russia/

British Royal Family insiders have claimed that Jeffrey Epstein sold “lots of videos” and other incriminating evidence he had on Prince Andrew to the Russian government.

The bombshell was revealed by historian and investigative author Andrew Lownie in his devastating new biography of the British prince. ...

One clue to what they might reveal lies in a newspaper report in September 2019 saying that “British intelligence chiefs were concerned that Russia may have obtained kompromat, compromising material, on Prince Andrew over the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.”

According to the paper, John Mark Dougan, a former deputy in the Palm Beach County sheriff’s office, had fled to Russia with copies of files on Andrew and was in touch with Pavel Borodin, a mentor of Vladimir Putin.

Asked what might be in the files, Dougan said: “Lots of videos but I wasn’t going to sit around and watch them.

Never heard that Epstein was selling these files before.

https://www.ryandawson.org/p/billionaire-pedophiles-robert-miller

Canadian Billionaire Robert Miller was a cross between Peter Nygard and Jeffrey Epstein. Like Epstein he knew both Les Wexner and the Bronfman crime family. Robert Miller is a wealthy pedophile, he amassed billions of dollar with his company Future Electronics which was sold last year to Taiwan for 3.8Bn. ...

His system evolved over time. At first he would pay a pimp, Raymond Poulet to act as his middle man and recruit young girls. They would bring them to a hotel usually the Intercontinental Hotel a luxury hotel in Montreal, or the Queen Elizabeth hotel. Once at the hotel they would be wine and dined then Poulet would pass them off to Miller who was only known to the girls as Bob. ...

Miller would instruct them to take a bath, usually he would undress and join them washing them himself and engaging in foreplay. From there he would move things into the bed room where he had unprotected sex and or used sex toys. Whenever possible there would be two girls.

Similar to Epstein he paid his victims albeit a much higher rate of 1500 Canadian. If they pulled out before sex he might give them $700. The craziest thing is no one told the hotel staff or police. Or if they did it never went anywhere.

Three individuals are most responsible for eventually bringing down Miller’s network. John Weslake a former cop turned P.I. Donna Loupret the director of security at the Intercontinental Hotel and Robert’s Miller’s Ex-Wife. It was his Ex-Wife who first tipped off Westlake.

Donna Loupret noticed the odd behavior of Robert Miller. He always rented the same room on the 25th floor, room 2520. He had it renovated on his own dime. He demanded they install a large tub in the bathroom and they did. It was called the Fuck-Tub.

THE GLENN BECK PODCAST https://www.theblaze.com/shows/glenn-beck-podcast/epsteins-lawyer-makes-shocking-claim-about-client-list

Epstein’s lawyer makes SHOCKING claim about client list ... (SHOCKING I tell ya, just SHOCKING)

Alan Dershowitz, Epstein's lawyer, tells all ! And guess what? Jeffrey Epstein was not involved in *pedophilia, and NO! ... he was NOT working for a 'foreign government' because DIRTshowtiz 'would have known,' so that settles that you anti-semite lowlifes. And shame on you for even thinking such a thing.

* Admittedly, Epstein, says Dershowitz, had an 'attraction' to 16, 17 and older teens and was not personally a pedophile. Dershowitz fails to mention that there are women that claim to have been abused by the Epstein operation when they were as young as 10 years old! Dershowitz also doesn't mention the fact that 'TENS of thousands' of videos exist that contain 'child pornography' (according to AG Pam Bondi) that were confiscated as evidence at Epstein's residences. Question: WERE THERE ADULTS on those videos (of course there were) and WHY ARE THEY NOT BEING ARRESTED AND PROSECUTED?
Oh! I forgot! Russiagate is far more important than crimes being committed against innocent CHILDREN! And of course we know that the US Department of Justice (120,000 employees) just doesn't have the manpower to investigate two crimes at once.

PS: Dershowitz failed to mention that he received 'messages' from young girls, which was OK because the scum bag wore his dirty underwear during these innocent sessions. (Try to imagine your wife's reaction if she walked into your bedroom while you were wearing only your undies being messaged by a 15 year old). I'm sure she would have told the Judge: "Honest your Honor, I didn't know the gun was loaded ..."

Patrick says

Who painted it?

RayAmerica says

(Try to imagine your wife's reaction if she walked in on a message in your bedroom while you were wearing your undies being messaged by a 15 year old).

And? That's the problem with all the Epstein file shit. My kids have rubbed my back or scratched it for me. So? I'm not a pedo at all. I would go to the cutest masseuse 10 out of 10 times, doesn't mean we have any kind of sex.

Also if your wife is that insecure you've clearly never done a couples massage. This whole thing keeps leading to no where. If you fucked Bill Clinton or some famous person when you were 15 you'd say something and make a shit ton of money. Do interviews, write a book, sue, etc. Your name as victim doesn't even have to be disclosed.

Epstein and Maxwell were caught moving humans around for work. Was it for sex? Who knows. Fact is if there's no case, there's no case if they don't have evidence and victims. Prince Andrew or whoever the fuck he is just wants this to go away. If I knew I was going to spend $10M on attorney fees I'll settle for less to make the perceived situation go away and be done with it. It's not an admission of guilt. Where are these other girls not looking to get a pay day?

I have no like or dislike towards anyone famous supposedly involved. As an outsider it appears there's no evidence. A prosecutor is not going to charge someone without evidence. That's a career killer. Bondi made a mistake about files that she didn't even look at. A single individual would take 2-3 years to explore 10k files. She lied and should be canned. Or her staff lied to her.

Keep chasing though. There is no there, there. Nothing is going to happen. Unless there's a willing victim, evidence and culprit and then a jury of 12 people or whatever finds them guilty. It's a he said she said situation. No way you get 12 or even a single judge to agree.

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

Who painted it?

Just a wild guess; the same 'artist' that painted Bill Clinton in that Blue Dress?

You are correct, sir.

https://pryankleid.wordpress.com/author/pryankleid/

https://slaynews.com/news/bill-hillary-clinton-subpoenaed-testify-jeffrey-epstein/

House Oversight Committee has subpoenaed Bill and Hillary Clinton to testify before congressional investigators on their ties to notorious child trafficker Jeffrey Epstein.

The Oversight Committee, led by Chairman James Comer (R-KY), has escalated its investigation into the Epstein case by issuing subpoenas for testimony from the Clintons and several other high-profile figures.

Probably just more bullshit theater.

https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/draculas-brides-tuesday-august-5

Holy chandeliers of shame, Batman. I predict a brand new social media wildfire today, arising from the New York Times’ top-of-page story this morning, headlined, “New Photos of Jeffrey Epstein’s Manhattan Townhouse.” (Note: I pasted it as a gift link, so you might get past the paywall.) It was the largest Epstein disclosure since 2019, and it included more pictures than we have ever seen. Get ready. Remember— the last development was Ghislaine Maxwell’s chatty Kathy interview and her relocation to Club Fed.




That, my friends, is a photo of the artwork decorating the entry of Epstein’s Manhattan home, where he lived next door to Woody Allen, and where he met with loads of elites, celebrities, world leaders, and girls aged 14-17. The “sculpture,” if you can call it that, was called simply, “the bride.”

That wasn’t the weirdest part. “Dozens of framed prosthetic eyeballs lined the entryway,” the Times drily reported. (But no pictures of the eyeballs, which is weirdly ironic, almost as weird as the frame prosthetics themselves.) It was a twisted joke. You are always being watched.

The article included picture after picture identifying the locations of hidden cameras in various rooms. Here’s one example, from Epstein’s master bedroom:




Epstein’s place was decorated with pictures of himself with various public figures. Presumably, this was to psychologically reinforce his power and influence for new visitors. Each new visitor (or victim) became another pictorial trophy added to Epstein’s collection. Here’s one example of many:




The collection of framed snapshots included never-before-seen (or rarely published) images of the serial rapist with people like: Pope John Paul II, Elon Musk, Fidel Castro, Larry Summers, Bill Clinton, Richard Branson, Mohammed Bin Salman, and Mick Jagger.

One of the most damning disclosures was the article’s report of a signed first-edition copy of Nabokov’s pedophile novel Lolita, preserved in a pristine condition on a wooden sideboard in Epstein’s office. (Also not pictured.)

One of the most remarkable disclosures wasn’t a photo from Epstein’s townhouse at all, but a letter from Epstein’s Birthday Book, written by his next door neighbor, Woody Allen. Here it is in full:




Let us not forget— Woody Allen should know. Not only was he right there, but the director had a long, controversial history involving inappropriate relationships, including with women decades younger, and in one notorious case, his own legally adopted stepdaughter. Allen’s public persona is built around neurotic self-awareness— the kind of man who always knows the subtext and wants you to know he knows it too.

(Note: The Times brought up Trump’s alleged “naked woman” doodle, but —to avoid liability— also mentioned Trump has denied it, and has sued the Wall Street Journal for defamation. No Trump letter appeared in the article.)

Now that you have an idea how sensational the imagery was, let’s dismantle the story.

Consider this: in a story about never-before-seen photos from the inside of a federal crime scene, with high-resolution images of one of the most politically and culturally explosive narratives going, the Times never once said where the photos came from.

They didn’t say, “obtained through court records,” “forwarded by a source close to the investigation,” or “provided by an official under condition of anonymity.” They didn’t say anything about the source of the new images. Nada. Bupkis.

Nor did the article explain why the photos were being released now. Or where they’ve been since 2019. Or why nobody’s seen them before. Journalistically speaking, the absence of sourcing and timing is highly irregular, to say the least.

So that was the first revealing omission. But there’s more.

Next, the Times pointed out the cameras, the bedrooms, the massage rooms, the cascades of elite visitors, and the network of “young female assistants”— but never once directly connected those dots to the most obvious, long-standing suspicion surrounding Epstein: That the townhouse was a surveillance trap, designed to record blackmail material on the world’s most powerful men.

They stopped, inches from the edge of the narrative cliff, and then just wandered away. They didn’t find a community college “expert” to quote or even generally reference speculation about Epstein’s house being a kompromat factory.

It’s not like the article was afraid to ask hard questions. But it limited them to one short paragraph:

Since Mr. Epstein's death in federal custody in 2019, which was
ruled a suicide, many mysteries about his life have remained
unsolved. How did he amass a nine-figure fortune? And why did so
many powerful men continue to fraternize with him long after he
became a registered sex offender?

Finally, and the biggest admission of all: the Times pointed at but never mentioned all the potential witnesses. The article described dozens or hundreds of staff and visitors, but never speculated about their value to an investigation. It pointed out all the cameras, but never mused about who installed and maintained them. Or where the videos went.

The Times showed us the cameras. They showed us the rooms. They showed us the guests. But they never asked the only questions that matter: If the house was wired —and it clearly was— then where are the recordings? Where are the hard drives? Who had access? Who took custody? Where are they now?

Related: A fulsome 2019 Times story openly discussed a blackmail operation, but said no cameras were found in Epstein’s lair (now contradicted by yesterday’s story). But the entire long article, quoting multiple witnesses including Epstein himself (“we keep everything”), acted like it was settled that the video archive was real and existed.