patrick.net

The_Deplorable says

Impossible because Boeing did not inform the airlines and the pilots that the 737 MAX was
unstable. Boeing did not even mention this in the pilot manual. So, how did you expect
the airlines to train their pilots about a problem they know nothing about?

Read up on the subject. Not what corporate news media puts out. Watch some videos from some of the most respected crash analyst that are pilots. Pretty sure I've already posted on it in this thread. Being held liable doesn't mean they weren't poorly trained pilots though. This is legal stuff because the insurance companies on the planes/airlines didn't want to pay out a couple billion dollars for the planes and families. They had to find anything to blame Boeing. Legal and insurance 101. They blame the pilots, no one flies their airlines.

Was it an issue? I guess for poorly trained pilots, but not from data from non-news people to get click bait articles and what I've read. There are procedures to take basic control of the plane though even if you didn't know MCAS was part of the plane. We had more delivered here in the US and were flying before being grounded. 0 crashes. There weren't many in service so US pilots had an exponentially higher chance of crashing. They didn't. Basic math and stats.

Just because you fly a big jet doesn't mean you're good at it even in different and older 737 models. General aviation is where most crashes happen, but overseas they simply have a poor track record outside of maybe Europe. It's like any industry and then throw in a language barrier and different level of basic training, not just on a specific plane and we got this situation.

You don't have to believe me, I don't care. This is a legal issue because of poor piloting. US pilots have attested to this that flew the MAX before grounding. I'm not sure what incentive they'd have to defend Boeing OR keep flying their planes if they didn't trust them. "Whistle blowers" were disgruntled employees or thought they had an opportunity to make money. We don't hear about it, but a Walmart employee probably kills themselves weekly.

Fact is it's the safest mode of transportation. Don't fly on one if you're scared. I definitely won't fly shit foreign airlines though knowing the process here and how it lacks in other countries. And yes, you have to believe this user is an actual pilot, but this is a detailed explanation how to stop MCAS. It was pilot error and insurance companies not wanting to pay. No one on this thread has proven otherwise. https://www.quora.com/Why-would-Boeing-ever-install-an-MCAS-system-in-the-737-Max-8-that-disallows-the-pilot-to-override-it

I can post more links to pilots talking or shooting videos on the topics if you want. 99% of my flights are on 737's. It freaked me out a touch until I researched it. It's media bull shit besides the door issue, but it was a strange configuration for the model.

TL:DR - Classic media overhype to get clicks that know nothing about a topic or researched it. Big company, big clicks/views and media revenue.

The_Deplorable says

Impossible because Boeing did not inform the airlines and the pilots that the 737 MAX was
unstable. Boeing did not even mention this in the pilot manual. So, how did you expect
the airlines to train their pilots about a problem they know nothing about?

WookieMan says

There are procedures to take basic control of the plane

The World's Leading Authority on aviation has spoken, Deplorable.

WookieMan, thanks for the link.

B.A.C.A.H. says

The World's Leading Authority on aviation has spoken, Deplorable.

I'll state again, at no point has anyone countered a single thing I've said. A link. Anything. I've posted video links. Don't watch them, fine. Don't click on the most recent one. Laziness is a bad trait. Whether is was in a manual, or mentioned by Boeing, there 100% was a way to override the system. Prove me wrong.... I'll wait. Knowing the system or not didn't matter. It's flying that class of plane.

If you guys want to bitch about Boeing, go for it. Back it up with some facts. Those pilots overseas fucked up. Insurance companies found a new system in the upgraded 737 and blamed Boeing for what was pilot error. Again, prove me wrong and I'll shut up.

WookieMan says

If you guys want to bitch about Boeing

Sorry Wookie, I neglected to mention also The World's Leading Expert on Heavy Manufacturing and Top Management Malfeasance.

My bad.

just_passing_through says

"My cousin fly's them... He said the crashes in other parts of the
world were due to lack of training."

That is Impossible because Boeing did not inform the airlines and the pilots that the 737 MAX
was unstable. Boeing did not even mention this in the pilot manual. So, how did you expect
the airlines to train their pilots about a problem they know nothing about?

WookieMan says

"Read up on the subject."

I did:

U.S. Senator and pilot Tammy Duckworth Calls on FAA to Review Boeing’s Disturbing
Pattern of Failing to Disclose Critical 737 MAX Safety Information to Pilots. Duckworth cited
as one example Boeing’s earlier decision, to not include the Maneuvering Characteristics
Augmentation System (MCAS) in the 737 MAX 8 flight manual, which left the flight crew on
Lion Air flight 610 unaware of what was forcing their aircraft into a nose-dive. MCAS ultimately
caused Lion flight 610’s crash, killing all 189 humans on board that 2018 flight. A second
MCAS-related crash followed in 2019, raising the 737 MAX death toll to 346 people.
https://www.duckworth.senate.gov/news/press-releases/duckworth-calls-on-faa-to-review-boeings-disturbing-pattern-of-failing-to-disclose-critical-737-max-safety-information-to-pilots

The_Deplorable says

U.S. Senator and pilot Tammy Duckworth

Lost all credibility there dude. If you're able meet your House Reps and Senators please do it and you wouldn't quote a thing she says. She is my Senator... sadly. So I didn't read the rest because I know it's horse shit.

She was an Obama puppet with no leg pawned to get a Senate seat. She's a fucking idiot dude having talked to her. She has no clue what she's talking about. She wasn't a pilot of fixed wing aircraft when she lost her leg... get to the choppa, now. She's the female McCain really thinking about it. She lost her leg because she sucked at her job.

I'm not going to keep posting links that literally show you instructions how to disable ANY system whether known or not. If something is off you are TRAINED to solve it. There was a solution regardless to not crash the planes. You're not getting the point. MCAS or not, a pilot can take control of the plane. That's fact.

Please don't ever quote Tammy Duckworth again. Hell, almost any government official. Again, she's my Senator and I have personal experience with her. Even though IL is conceived as a shit hole, we do politics illegally at the highest level. She's a 10th level dip shit and this isn't a D or R thing. She was a first wave DEI military hire that knows nothing.

Interesting article discussing the impact of software on modern airplane design - and why we use software as a shortcut to fix design shortcomings.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/how-the-boeing-737-max-disaster-looks-to-a-software-developer

krc says

Interesting article discussing the impact of software on modern airplane design - and why we use software as a shortcut to fix design shortcomings.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/how-the-boeing-737-max-disaster-looks-to-a-software-developer

Software is fine. Can be overridden. I'd take a quote like this from the article with a grain of salt.

"In response to the company’s near-crisis state, The Los Angeles Times reported on 30 Jan. that a former Boeing manager has publicly stated his aversion to ever flying on the redesigned 737. “I would absolutely not fly a Max airplance,”

Not me fucking with copy and paste either. This is your news media. Also it's a manager, not a pilot or maintenance staff or engineering. They know nothing. They manage people to do their job. They know squat about the aircraft. It's a different skill set.

Most white collar employees have no clue how to change a tire let alone build a plane that's been built for half a century.

WookieMan says

"Lost all credibility there dude... Please don't ever quote Tammy
Duckworth again."

WookieMan, This is an ad hominem attack against Tammy Duckworth and you are
saying in effect, that you cannot reply to Tammy Duckworth's argument. You are, in
other words, validating the Tammy Duckworth argument.

Again, Duckworth cited as one example Boeing’s earlier decision, to not include the
Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) in the 737 MAX 8 flight
manual, which left the flight crew on Lion Air flight 610 unaware of what was forcing
their aircraft into a nose-dive. MCAS ultimately caused Lion flight 610’s crash, killing
all 189 humans on board that 2018 flight. A second MCAS-related crash followed in
2019, raising the 737 MAX death toll to 346 people.
https://www.duckworth.senate.gov/news/press-releases/duckworth-calls-on-faa-to-review-boeings-disturbing-pattern-of-failing-to-disclose-critical-737-max-safety-information-to-pilots

Question: Is this true? Yes or No? Did Boeing inform the airlines and the pilots about
the MCAS system? Answer: No!

WookieMan says

I'd take a quote like this from the article with a grain of salt

Agree. I was just posting the article because it really discusses the impact of moving from known mechanical systems to fly by wire.
I think airbus was the first with fly by wire. And as things rely more on computers and therefore coders, more people are removed from the actual
"airplane" development. Software is a "quick fix" at times but can cover up hardware design flaws. A software engineer will go "I can fix this" with
a subroutine to do x - when really they should be challenging the hardware team if this is even appropriate or "good design".

WookieMan says

She's a fucking idiot

She has no clue what she's talking about.

She lost her leg because she sucked at her job.

The_Deplorable: Don't you know The World's Leading Expert On Aviation and Military Combat has spoken?
Is He a pilot? An aerospace engineer? Combat Veteran? Just asking.

The_Deplorable says

This is an ad hominem attack against Tammy Duckworth

B.A.C.A.H. says

"The_Deplorable: Don't you know The World's Leading Expert On
Aviation and Military Combat has spoken? Is He a pilot? An aerospace engineer?
Combat Veteran? Just asking."

B.A.C.A.H., this is another ad hominem attack and you are admitting that you cannot
respond to my argument - that Boeing did not inform the airlines and the pilots about the
presence of the MCAS system on the 737 MAX and that is why Boeing was found
criminally liable for the crashes.

The_Deplorable says

Question: Is this true? Yes or No? Did Boeing inform the airlines and the pilots about
the MCAS system? Answer: No!

What difference does it make? It's not a yes or no answer. American pilots noticed the issues and used their training to fix an issue in flight. These pilots didn't. No airline or insurer is going to blame the pilots or both go out of business. They needed to get rid of it so they blamed some software the was EASILY overridden even if you didn't know it was there. You still don't get the issue.

The override was in the manual. They were not trained well trained. Even if MCAS was in the manual they still would have crashed those planes. I frankly don't know how you understand this and bring a moron into the conversation.

The_Deplorable says

WookieMan, This is an ad hominem attack against Tammy Duckworth and you are
saying in effect, that you cannot reply to Tammy Duckworth's argument. You are, in
other words, validating the Tammy Duckworth argument.

Tammy is and has never been a fixed wing pilot. I'll take my knowledge from actual fixed wing pilots and mechanics. She talks to donors and people that will scratch her back. You don't get the game. They're trying to trash the stock and short it. This is so ridiculous that you keep arguing it and don't see what's in front of you. How in the flying fuck do you not see what's going on????

$174k as a Senator. These people have multimillion dollar homes. They can fuck with a company as a committee and then trade the stock. They can help a company and buy stock before they release the info. $174k/yr is a joke.

They were found criminally liable because of fucking insurance. We're talking $1B plus. That will put most airline insurance companies under because it's the safest mode of transportation. I can keep explaining this, but I can't help stupid.

WookieMan says

"If you guys want to bitch about Boeing, go for it. Back it up with
some facts."

Ok.

FACT: Boeing did not inform the airlines and the pilots about the presence of
the MCAS system on the 737 MAX and that is why Boeing was found criminally
liable for the crashes.

Question WookieMan: Is this true? Yes or No? Did Boeing inform the airlines and
the pilots about the MCAS system? Answer: No!

"What difference does it make? It's not a yes or no answer."

It is! Did Boeing inform the airlines and the pilots about the MCAS system?
Answer: No! That is why Boeing is criminally liable for the crashes. And
most important, you cannot blame the pilots.

Dude take some meds. MCAS could have been overridden with a push of a button. Again, 100% fact. You haven't clicked any links I've posted about this. There's tons of electronics on a plane. There are tons of gauges. There's buttons too. You can push one to stop an erratic plane on the yoke. This is called training. Regardless of the manual or knowing the system they were trained on this operation.

Boeing got sued because those airlines would go out of business overnight. High paid attorneys found a system that wasn't in the manual so the airlines got out of liability. MCAS is still on 737 Max built today. Boeing did a "software update" and the Max is flying as safe as it was before. You know Boeing did nothing with MCAS after these crashes, right? Blaming the pilots would be bad optics with 500 dead. They got caught with a manual error for legal reasons. The crashes were 100% pilot error.

Ever wonder why the vast majority of major aviation accidents happen overseas? Every country has their own version of the FAA. Some work in conjunction with training with the FAA. Others don't. Listen to some ATC chatter. Foreign pilots are less capable. Airbus is huge, but whether it's a 2nd language or not, most Europeans know how to speak English. Very few crashes in Europe.

Ethiopian Airlines is government owned in a land locked shit hole country. We all know how well that works... said no one. Lion Air, maybe click the link this time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air We're talking about pilots doing meth, not having a cocktail. These are poorly run airlines with poorly trained pilots with non-english speaking/understanding skills.

There were 8,600 flights per week when the Max was grounded. I don't care if Boeing is criminally liable, that's a legal issue and not a safety issue. Shitty pilots crashed the planes because they weren't trained properly. Again, someone prove otherwise... I'll still be waiting.

The_Deplorable says

B.A.C.A.H., this is another ad hominem attack and you are admitting that you cannot
respond to my argument - that Boeing did not inform the airlines and the pilots about the
presence of the MCAS system on the 737 MAX and that is why Boeing was found
criminally liable for the crashes.

Deplorable, I think I did a poor job of expressing myself on the comment I made. I was citing your comment pointing out that The World's Leading Expert On Aviation, Manufacturing, and Military Combat was making a personal attack on Senator Duckworth.

I agree with you on the Boeing thing as well as our Expert attacking the Senator.

WookieMan says

She's a fucking idiot

She's a 10th level dip shit

She lost her leg because she sucked at her job

and...

WookieMan says

She has no clue what she's talking about.

But our Expert knows everything. Everything about Aviation. Everything about Manufacturing. Everything about Military Combat. Everything about Top Management Ethics.

B.A.C.A.H. says

was making a personal attack on Senator Duckworth.

Let me know when you met and talked to her. I'll be waiting.... No personal attack. Personal experience... Not sure what is not to understand? Just because this is an anonymous forum does not mean I'm talking out my ass. If you want to take Tammy Duckworth's word I'd tread lightly. She's a crippled puppet. Until you know.... you don't know.

Again, this is my state senator. I'm an elected official. I've met her and other House Reps. I'm not some online troll. My wife is extremely prominent in infrastructure. You cats don't have to believe me and you also don't know shit, but if you met me you'd be tucking your dick between your legs and apologizing.

I have zero stake in Boeing. You guys have no clue about insurance and law. Enjoy masturbating together about something you know nothing about.

WookieMan says

"Dude take some meds. MCAS could have been overridden
with a push of a button."

Nonsense because the pilots did not know that their 737 MAX had MCAS.
You cannot turn off something that you do not know it exists! And this
because Boeing did not inform the pilots and the airlines about MCAS.

In other words, the 737 Max is, by design, unstable. Specifically, the 737 MAX
is incapable of straight and level flight because the nose of the MAX will go up
uncommanded. Uncommanded! Having the nose go up uncommanded leads
to a stall and that is why Boeing installed MCAS without informing the pilots
about the fact.

So why Boeing did not inform the pilots and the airlines about the presence of
MCAS? Because that would have required pilot training - an extra expense for
the airlines - and Boeing wanted to sell the 737 MAX on the assumption that it
is identical to the older 737 models.

That is why Boeing was found criminally liable for the crashes. And most
important, you cannot blame the pilots.

The_Deplorable says

You cannot turn off something that you do not know it exists!

You keep going back to this. It's a moot point. Electronic systems fail at time whether you know about them or not. There's a way to control the plane. They had dozens of other gauges to check and didn't. They didn't know what to do regardless of MCAS which as mention multiple times could be overridden without knowledge of the system with basic training on the aircraft.

No mention that Boeing has a couple astronauts stuck in space?
https://x.com/shaunmmaguire/status/1805327328169673049

Meanwhile, SpaceX is successfully launching AND LANDING rockets every few days now.

Latest launch last night from Vandenberg that I can see from my house.

You cannot turn off something that you do not know it exists!

WookieMan says

"You keep going back to this."

Yes. Why don't you respond to this argument. Tell us, how do you turn off MCAS
if you do not know it exists?

"They didn't know what to do regardless of MCAS which as
mention multiple times could be overridden without knowledge of the system with
basic training on the aircraft. "

Except Boeing wanted to avoid training! But please explain to us how do you turn
off MCAS if you do not know it exists?

And keep in mind, "Boeing CEO apologizes for lives lost and acknowledges role
of company’s flight-control system in two crashes... Muilenburg recognized the role
in both crashes of MCAS... MCAS can cause pilots to lose control of an aircraft in
response to erroneous data from the plane’s external sensors."
See https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/04/04/boeing-ceo-dennis-muilenburg-apologizes-lives-lost-ethiopian-indonesian-plane-crashes/

WookieMan says

Until you know.... you don't know.

Yeah.

Like about aviation. Manufacturing. Top Management Ethics. Military Combat.

The_Deplorable says

Yes. Why don't you respond to this argument. Tell us, how do you turn off MCAS
if you do not know it exists?

"They didn't know what to do regardless of MCAS which as
mention multiple times could be overridden without knowledge of the system with
basic training on the aircraft. "

Except Boeing wanted to avoid training! But please explain to us how do you turn
off MCAS if you do not know it exists?

Deplorable, because He Knows Everything about Aviation and Top Management Ethics (also Manufacturing and Military Combat). We are stupid, He knows everything.

socal2 says

Meanwhile, SpaceX is successfully launching AND LANDING rockets every few days now.

Falcon Heavy tomorrow afternoon! We will be at the river fishing and watching.

I just boarded flight with hot blond pilot, and most flaming black flight attendant talking as gay as possible on intercom. This might be my last post.

Edit the copilot was an asian woman that sounded like a Hispanic boy, wtf I hit the dei lotto.

The_Deplorable says

Yes. Why don't you respond to this argument. Tell us, how do you turn off MCAS
if you do not know it exists?

I've linked multiple times. If you can't figure it out I'm sorry. I don't wipe my kids ass, not going to wipe yours.

GREAT Quote about the lifecycle of companies:

Back when I worked for Exxon there was a proverb about this sort of thing: that a healthy oil company had a geologist in charge, a mature one had an engineer in charge, a declining company had an accountant in charge, and a dying one had a lawyer in charge.

John Johnston III @JohnTheKnife
https://x.com/JohnTheKnife/status/1805649597164879948

https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-prosecutors-recommend-doj-criminally-charge-boeing-deadline-looms-2024-06-23/

The_Deplorable says

just_passing_through says
"My cousin fly's them... He said the crashes in other parts of the
world were due to lack of training."

That is Impossible because Boeing did not inform the airlines and the pilots that the 737 MAX
was unstable. Boeing did not even mention this in the pilot manual. So, how did you expect
the airlines to train their pilots about a problem they know nothing about?

From my cousin - I think he misunderstood 'arguing' though:

You cannot turn MCAS itself off. You can turn the power off to the elevator trim motors, so that the commands from MCAS cannot be carried out. It is just a switch on the center console that we turn off the power to the elevator trim so even though the MCAS is commanding a nose down trim there's no power to actually execute that. The video doesn't actually show that though. I wouldn't get an arguments like that with idiots anyways. I'm a rated and qualified line captain on the 737 for the largest airline in the world. I think I know the system and anyone that doubts that is an idiot of themselves.

I am familiar with how the system works. That is one of the systems that there is no real training to be done and the pilot has no interaction with it and has no switches to control it. But I do know the system was designed to lower the pitch attitude of the aircraft if the aircraft senses an impending stall. Lowering the pitch attitude is the normal manner in which you use to break a stall and it's just assisting you in that job function. We are trained on it.

So to me it's sort of like automatic cruise control for your car as an analogy except it just turns on. I'm trained to drive a car and if I see a dangerous situation unfolding, like traffic stopping ahead I turn the cruise control off (perhaps by braking)...

just_passing_through says

So to me it's sort of like automatic cruise control for your car as an analogy except it just turns on. I'm trained to drive a car and if I see a dangerous situation unfolding, like traffic stopping ahead I turn the cruise control off (perhaps by braking)...

Bingo. Better than I've tried explaining it. The crashes were avoidable.

Boeing will be held liable only because of insurance reasons. The Alaska Air door incident was bad timing and likely bad manufacturing. Oh, and no one was hurt. Pilots control planes and don't crash them. Except when they're poorly trained or inept at the job. Rarely is it equipment or software. It's 2024, not 1970 when most pilots were drunk.

Well, personally I'm trying to convince him to retire early. I don't trust Boeing anymore. In fact, that is going into my calculus as to when or whether or not I sell my Maui condo soon. I don't want to crash and DEI in the middle of the Pacific.

just_passing_through says

"So to me it's sort of like automatic cruise control for your car as an analogy except it just turns on."

How do you turn off cruise control if you do not know it exists?

How do you turn off cruise control if you do not know the definition of cruise control?

Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft - with two astronauts onboard - are currently stuck in space.

"It remains unclear when exactly the astronauts will be able to make their return to Earth."

It makes you wonder if the Starliner is missing any bolts...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/26/boeing-starliner-astronauts

The_Deplorable says

Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft - with two astronauts onboard - are currently stuck in space.

"It remains unclear when exactly the astronauts will be able to make their return to Earth."

It makes you wonder if the Starliner is missing any bolts...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/26/boeing-starliner-astronauts

They are not 'stuck' in space. SpaceX can send up a Dragon, if necessary.

It would be humiliating for both NASA and Boeing.

Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft - with two astronauts onboard - are currently stuck in space.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

"They are not 'stuck' in space. SpaceX can send up a Dragon, if necessary."

In other words they are currently stuck in space.