patrick.net

Dude take some meds. MCAS could have been overridden with a push of a button. Again, 100% fact. You haven't clicked any links I've posted about this. There's tons of electronics on a plane. There are tons of gauges. There's buttons too. You can push one to stop an erratic plane on the yoke. This is called training. Regardless of the manual or knowing the system they were trained on this operation.

Boeing got sued because those airlines would go out of business overnight. High paid attorneys found a system that wasn't in the manual so the airlines got out of liability. MCAS is still on 737 Max built today. Boeing did a "software update" and the Max is flying as safe as it was before. You know Boeing did nothing with MCAS after these crashes, right? Blaming the pilots would be bad optics with 500 dead. They got caught with a manual error for legal reasons. The crashes were 100% pilot error.

Ever wonder why the vast majority of major aviation accidents happen overseas? Every country has their own version of the FAA. Some work in conjunction with training with the FAA. Others don't. Listen to some ATC chatter. Foreign pilots are less capable. Airbus is huge, but whether it's a 2nd language or not, most Europeans know how to speak English. Very few crashes in Europe.

Ethiopian Airlines is government owned in a land locked shit hole country. We all know how well that works... said no one. Lion Air, maybe click the link this time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air We're talking about pilots doing meth, not having a cocktail. These are poorly run airlines with poorly trained pilots with non-english speaking/understanding skills.

There were 8,600 flights per week when the Max was grounded. I don't care if Boeing is criminally liable, that's a legal issue and not a safety issue. Shitty pilots crashed the planes because they weren't trained properly. Again, someone prove otherwise... I'll still be waiting.

The_Deplorable says

B.A.C.A.H., this is another ad hominem attack and you are admitting that you cannot
respond to my argument - that Boeing did not inform the airlines and the pilots about the
presence of the MCAS system on the 737 MAX and that is why Boeing was found
criminally liable for the crashes.

Deplorable, I think I did a poor job of expressing myself on the comment I made. I was citing your comment pointing out that The World's Leading Expert On Aviation, Manufacturing, and Military Combat was making a personal attack on Senator Duckworth.

I agree with you on the Boeing thing as well as our Expert attacking the Senator.

WookieMan says

She's a fucking idiot

She's a 10th level dip shit

She lost her leg because she sucked at her job

and...

WookieMan says

She has no clue what she's talking about.

But our Expert knows everything. Everything about Aviation. Everything about Manufacturing. Everything about Military Combat. Everything about Top Management Ethics.

B.A.C.A.H. says

was making a personal attack on Senator Duckworth.

Let me know when you met and talked to her. I'll be waiting.... No personal attack. Personal experience... Not sure what is not to understand? Just because this is an anonymous forum does not mean I'm talking out my ass. If you want to take Tammy Duckworth's word I'd tread lightly. She's a crippled puppet. Until you know.... you don't know.

Again, this is my state senator. I'm an elected official. I've met her and other House Reps. I'm not some online troll. My wife is extremely prominent in infrastructure. You cats don't have to believe me and you also don't know shit, but if you met me you'd be tucking your dick between your legs and apologizing.

I have zero stake in Boeing. You guys have no clue about insurance and law. Enjoy masturbating together about something you know nothing about.

WookieMan says

"Dude take some meds. MCAS could have been overridden
with a push of a button."

Nonsense because the pilots did not know that their 737 MAX had MCAS.
You cannot turn off something that you do not know it exists! And this
because Boeing did not inform the pilots and the airlines about MCAS.

In other words, the 737 Max is, by design, unstable. Specifically, the 737 MAX
is incapable of straight and level flight because the nose of the MAX will go up
uncommanded. Uncommanded! Having the nose go up uncommanded leads
to a stall and that is why Boeing installed MCAS without informing the pilots
about the fact.

So why Boeing did not inform the pilots and the airlines about the presence of
MCAS? Because that would have required pilot training - an extra expense for
the airlines - and Boeing wanted to sell the 737 MAX on the assumption that it
is identical to the older 737 models.

That is why Boeing was found criminally liable for the crashes. And most
important, you cannot blame the pilots.

The_Deplorable says

You cannot turn off something that you do not know it exists!

You keep going back to this. It's a moot point. Electronic systems fail at time whether you know about them or not. There's a way to control the plane. They had dozens of other gauges to check and didn't. They didn't know what to do regardless of MCAS which as mention multiple times could be overridden without knowledge of the system with basic training on the aircraft.

No mention that Boeing has a couple astronauts stuck in space?
https://x.com/shaunmmaguire/status/1805327328169673049

Meanwhile, SpaceX is successfully launching AND LANDING rockets every few days now.

Latest launch last night from Vandenberg that I can see from my house.

You cannot turn off something that you do not know it exists!

WookieMan says

"You keep going back to this."

Yes. Why don't you respond to this argument. Tell us, how do you turn off MCAS
if you do not know it exists?

"They didn't know what to do regardless of MCAS which as
mention multiple times could be overridden without knowledge of the system with
basic training on the aircraft. "

Except Boeing wanted to avoid training! But please explain to us how do you turn
off MCAS if you do not know it exists?

And keep in mind, "Boeing CEO apologizes for lives lost and acknowledges role
of company’s flight-control system in two crashes... Muilenburg recognized the role
in both crashes of MCAS... MCAS can cause pilots to lose control of an aircraft in
response to erroneous data from the plane’s external sensors."
See https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/04/04/boeing-ceo-dennis-muilenburg-apologizes-lives-lost-ethiopian-indonesian-plane-crashes/

WookieMan says

Until you know.... you don't know.

Yeah.

Like about aviation. Manufacturing. Top Management Ethics. Military Combat.

The_Deplorable says

Yes. Why don't you respond to this argument. Tell us, how do you turn off MCAS
if you do not know it exists?

"They didn't know what to do regardless of MCAS which as
mention multiple times could be overridden without knowledge of the system with
basic training on the aircraft. "

Except Boeing wanted to avoid training! But please explain to us how do you turn
off MCAS if you do not know it exists?

Deplorable, because He Knows Everything about Aviation and Top Management Ethics (also Manufacturing and Military Combat). We are stupid, He knows everything.

socal2 says

Meanwhile, SpaceX is successfully launching AND LANDING rockets every few days now.

Falcon Heavy tomorrow afternoon! We will be at the river fishing and watching.

I just boarded flight with hot blond pilot, and most flaming black flight attendant talking as gay as possible on intercom. This might be my last post.

Edit the copilot was an asian woman that sounded like a Hispanic boy, wtf I hit the dei lotto.

The_Deplorable says

Yes. Why don't you respond to this argument. Tell us, how do you turn off MCAS
if you do not know it exists?

I've linked multiple times. If you can't figure it out I'm sorry. I don't wipe my kids ass, not going to wipe yours.

GREAT Quote about the lifecycle of companies:

Back when I worked for Exxon there was a proverb about this sort of thing: that a healthy oil company had a geologist in charge, a mature one had an engineer in charge, a declining company had an accountant in charge, and a dying one had a lawyer in charge.

John Johnston III @JohnTheKnife
https://x.com/JohnTheKnife/status/1805649597164879948

https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-prosecutors-recommend-doj-criminally-charge-boeing-deadline-looms-2024-06-23/

The_Deplorable says

just_passing_through says
"My cousin fly's them... He said the crashes in other parts of the
world were due to lack of training."

That is Impossible because Boeing did not inform the airlines and the pilots that the 737 MAX
was unstable. Boeing did not even mention this in the pilot manual. So, how did you expect
the airlines to train their pilots about a problem they know nothing about?

From my cousin - I think he misunderstood 'arguing' though:

You cannot turn MCAS itself off. You can turn the power off to the elevator trim motors, so that the commands from MCAS cannot be carried out. It is just a switch on the center console that we turn off the power to the elevator trim so even though the MCAS is commanding a nose down trim there's no power to actually execute that. The video doesn't actually show that though. I wouldn't get an arguments like that with idiots anyways. I'm a rated and qualified line captain on the 737 for the largest airline in the world. I think I know the system and anyone that doubts that is an idiot of themselves.

I am familiar with how the system works. That is one of the systems that there is no real training to be done and the pilot has no interaction with it and has no switches to control it. But I do know the system was designed to lower the pitch attitude of the aircraft if the aircraft senses an impending stall. Lowering the pitch attitude is the normal manner in which you use to break a stall and it's just assisting you in that job function. We are trained on it.

So to me it's sort of like automatic cruise control for your car as an analogy except it just turns on. I'm trained to drive a car and if I see a dangerous situation unfolding, like traffic stopping ahead I turn the cruise control off (perhaps by braking)...

just_passing_through says

So to me it's sort of like automatic cruise control for your car as an analogy except it just turns on. I'm trained to drive a car and if I see a dangerous situation unfolding, like traffic stopping ahead I turn the cruise control off (perhaps by braking)...

Bingo. Better than I've tried explaining it. The crashes were avoidable.

Boeing will be held liable only because of insurance reasons. The Alaska Air door incident was bad timing and likely bad manufacturing. Oh, and no one was hurt. Pilots control planes and don't crash them. Except when they're poorly trained or inept at the job. Rarely is it equipment or software. It's 2024, not 1970 when most pilots were drunk.

Well, personally I'm trying to convince him to retire early. I don't trust Boeing anymore. In fact, that is going into my calculus as to when or whether or not I sell my Maui condo soon. I don't want to crash and DEI in the middle of the Pacific.

just_passing_through says

"So to me it's sort of like automatic cruise control for your car as an analogy except it just turns on."

How do you turn off cruise control if you do not know it exists?

How do you turn off cruise control if you do not know the definition of cruise control?

Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft - with two astronauts onboard - are currently stuck in space.

"It remains unclear when exactly the astronauts will be able to make their return to Earth."

It makes you wonder if the Starliner is missing any bolts...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/26/boeing-starliner-astronauts

The_Deplorable says

Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft - with two astronauts onboard - are currently stuck in space.

"It remains unclear when exactly the astronauts will be able to make their return to Earth."

It makes you wonder if the Starliner is missing any bolts...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/26/boeing-starliner-astronauts

They are not 'stuck' in space. SpaceX can send up a Dragon, if necessary.

It would be humiliating for both NASA and Boeing.

Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft - with two astronauts onboard - are currently stuck in space.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

"They are not 'stuck' in space. SpaceX can send up a Dragon, if necessary."

In other words they are currently stuck in space.

The_Deplorable says

just_passing_through says

"So to me it's sort of like automatic cruise control for your car as an analogy except it just turns on."

How do you turn off cruise control if you do not know it exists?

How do you turn off cruise control if you do not know the definition of cruise control?

He literally said it in his comment you selectively quoted. You tap the brake. Never used cruise control? There's a button for that on the plane that I've linked multiple times.

"Oh shit this car is going out of control" tap the brake. It was an extremely good analogy. Pilots "should" know how to override the electronics and tap the brakes so to speak. They were trained on this regardless of ANY electronic system. Take complete control of the plane.

Again for the 10th teen time, this is an insurance issue where billions will be paid out. Pilot error and culpability will never happen with ANY airline. Insurers and attorneys found software that wasn't in the manual. Very smart to be honest. It does NOT mean the pilots couldn't have fixed the situation. This isn't an online argument or debate. This is fact. They were poorly trained pilots.

Fact is Sully putting the plane with no thrust in the Hudson, urban environment proves what training and decision making does. The pilots of Lion Air and Ethiopia Air failed. They had functioning engines and the ability to override a system they didn't know about. There was a procedure for that for all 737's. They weren't trained well or freaked out. This thread should just be deleted at this point. I've posted plenty of links.

The pilots knew the procedure 100%. They forgot how to do it or what to do in time. Pilot error. This is the consensus with almost every pilot that flies the 737. Boeing made the right decision to just take a bath on this. The door incident didn't help, but this was pilot error. Yet to see a link from someone that's not flown a fixed wing aircraft that is a military grifter #tammy.

The_Deplorable says

Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft - with two astronauts onboard - are currently stuck in space.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

"They are not 'stuck' in space. SpaceX can send up a Dragon, if necessary."

In other words they are currently stuck in space.

Would you go to space? I have no sympathy for them. Be it Boeing's fault, they took a risk in boarding a risky endeavor. Space X legit lets their rockets blowup for testing. I would NOT get a Boeing spacecraft. They are commercial aviation and military.

They likely spread themselves too thin in a market they'll never dominate. So proof I'm not a Boeing fan boy in my comments.

How do you turn off cruise control if you do not know it exists?
How do you turn off cruise control if you do not know the definition of cruise control?

WookieMan says

"He literally said it in his comment you selectively quoted. You tap
the brake."

Except if you do not know that a cruise controller exists and if you do not know the
definition of a cruise control, you are not going to tap the break.

Give it a rest. Have a nice day.

The_Deplorable says

Except if you do not know that a cruise controller exists and if you do not know the
definition of a cruise control, you are not going to tap the break.

Give it a rest. Have a nice day.

Nope. You tap the brake. Not giving this a rest. No company is flawless. Neither are pilots. There was an operation to stop any auto pilot, etc. These pilots didn't know what to do. Read articles on it, not Tammy Duckworth who knows nothing about fixed wing aircraft. People are dumping on DEI hires SHE was one of the first in the 90's. Someone that got a military job being hispanic looking and woman? They didn't let women fly planes during that time. She got to the choppa. Learn a bit about what you quote. She knows nothing about Boeing aircraft.

You don't know IL and you don't know our politicians. Tammy is a dip shit know nothing. Let me know when you meet with her.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-blames-missing-paperwork-alaska-111838576.html

The_Deplorable says

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-blames-missing-paperwork-alaska-111838576.html

I wonder what the whistleblowers have to say about this.

...oh, wait.

The_Deplorable says

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-blames-missing-paperwork-alaska-111838576.html

If this is directed at me I haven't disputed the door incident.

That said I also check my air pressure on my tires weekly either electronically or manually. Simple maintenance is guess what? Simple. The aircraft should have been inspected to make sure it met spec. I'd call it a 50/50 liability issue. Boeing and Alaska. It was a custom order as well for the door. Your mechanics should double check that on delivery.

It appears no one has worked in manufacturing here on the labor side. Everyone on this forum has seen a sign I've made or assisted with. There will always be errors in manufacturing. I made errors at that age and even injured myself. For a product that goes 550mph I'd give them a passing grade. A few incidents doesn't make a bad company. No different than Trump grabbing them by the pussy, yet he was the best POTUS in most of our lifetimes, covid aside.

WookieMan says

The_Deplorable says

Except if you do not know that a cruise controller exists and if you do not know the
definition of a cruise control, you are not going to tap the break.

Give it a rest. Have a nice day.

Nope. You tap the brake. Not giving this a rest. No company is flawless. Neither are pilots. There was an operation to stop any auto pilot, etc. These pilots didn't know what to do. Read articles on it, not Tammy Duckworth who knows nothing about fixed wing aircraft.

Come on, Deplorable: don't you know by now?

He is an Expert on Aviation, Manufacturing, Top Management Corporate Ethics, and Military Combat.

You and me are clueless dumb-shits. Give it a rest.

B.A.C.A.H. says

You and me are clueless dumb-shits. Give it a rest.

Counter anything I've said besides whining. Quote something. Link something. Anything. I'll wait. In the meantime you can have a popsicle from the freezer. I won't tell mom.

https://babylonbee.com/cleanArticle/assange-plea-deal-includes-free-flight-home-on-a-boeing

WookieMan says

Quote something

Here's some quotes for you, Mr. Aviation / Manufacturing / Corporate Ethics / Military Combat Expert:

She's a fucking idiot

She's a 10th level dip shit

She lost her leg because she sucked at her job

You're The Expert!

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-on-edge-as-it-awaits-fateful-decision-from-doj-150442687.html

B.A.C.A.H. says

WookieMan says

Quote something

Here's some quotes for you, Mr. Aviation / Manufacturing / Corporate Ethics / Military Combat Expert:

She's a fucking idiot

She's a 10th level dip shit

She lost her leg because she sucked at her job

You're The Expert!

You know Tammy? Talk to her? Nope. I'll have a chat with my house rep tomorrow. Federal, not state.

How many combat veterans would you call friends. I have two really really good friends. Golfing with one on Friday that did two tours in Afghanistan and just saw another that did two tours. I see him almost weekly.

I've been the labor for manufacturing. Not some tech geek. I could build a house with my own hands if I wanted to.

I know corporate ethics well. Not doxing myself. My dad was and sister are prominent attorneys.

I know it looks like I talk a big game, but it's not bull shit dude. You've given me shit about travel and airport lingo. You've said you've flown planes. Maybe believe someone and don't act like they're shit talkers. I'm not.

WookieMan says

She's a fucking idiot

She's a 10th level dip shit

She lost her leg because she sucked at her job

Yes indeed Sir you are The Expert on so many things.

I know it's important to get in the last word, so go for it

B.A.C.A.H. says

Yes indeed Sir you are The Expert on so many things.

I know it's important to get in the last word, so go for it

Have you met her? Talked with her? Not going to name call, but come on dude. Have every right to criticize someone I've met. You have no clue.

Tampa 737 Flight has landing gear failure

https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1811182823220576527

Sheeeeeeit. Damn Old White Perfectionist Male Engineers.

AmericanKulak says

Tampa 737 Flight has landing gear failure

https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1811182823220576527

Sheeeeeeit. Damn Old White Perfectionist Male Engineers.

Hyperbolic much. Good pilot yet somehow it’s Boeings fault American didn’t maintain their tires?

We have kids wanting to be YouTube stars. There’s no talent in the trades. You can easily make $100k+ by 30. You can end up making more than a pilot just more hours.

WookieMan says

Hyperbolic much. Good pilot yet somehow it’s Boeings fault American didn’t maintain their tires?

I agree. I wonder if it was not a design and manufacturing problem, but an operation and maintenance problem.

As far as maintenance, they do not perform checks such as torque checks on bolts for doors and wheels.

And i understand what you mean as far as pilot error due lack of full competency.

.