patrick.net

Patrick says

WTF? Is the war all just theater?

LOL! A good bit of it. However, it's anybody's guess what is real, although there is reality in there outside of the stage management. Ever since the Hatfield and McCoy accusation exchanges of atrocities, many staged by both sides, I stopped wasting time on the blood and revulsion porn and the mutual accusation porn. Fuck all 'sides' on that issue.

The tit for tat retaliation stuff is programmed to go up and down the escalator for the hidden bosses. The only thing that seems a thing is that Iran demonstrated that it can get its targeted bombs into Israel and they have no meaningful defense. So, what is the next 'planned' escalation?

Ceffer says

So, what is the next 'planned' escalation?

Nothing. Gaza will just become worse, I don't think.Israel will expand into Israel, I expect maybe 50,000 more deaths in Gaza from starvation of whatever.

And it will be back to detente.

If Arab nations were serious about ending Israel, they would be gone. If there is a serious attack, it's world war 3 in the open.

Patrick says

WTF? Is the war all just theater?

@Patrick, I said this elsewhere.

Just like when Trump panged Suleiman and the Ayatollahs fired some ineffectual shit back and then STFU for the next few years.

Asiatics saving face, Kerry trying to preserve the $6B Iran Bribe, etc.

NuttBoxer says

I disagree.Zionism is not a religion, it's an extremist ideology leveraged by the people who normally gravitate to government to justify the atrocities they commit. Is Israel unique is this behavior? Only in that they hide behind religion as a pretense more than most.

It's just Hebrew nationalism. Literally all that has to happen is one subgroup of Arab Muslims has to accept that they will only control 95% of the Levant, not 100% and all the violence goes away.

Unlike with Ba'athists and SSNP who want the Whole Levant ruled from Damscus in their official party platform.

If you read the OT, the return to Israel is a major theme of the book. It's also in the NT. And it's a precondition Jesus shared with Paul before the end (Romans 11). If a Jew isn't a Zionist, he's not a real Jew. It's like claiming to be a Christian who doesn't believe in the Return of Jesus.

AmericanKulak says

It's just Hebrew nationalism.

Yeah, like German nationalism, based on racial identity, not religion.

But don't dare confuse a Zionist with a Nazi..

AmericanKulak says

If you read the OT, the return to Israel is a major theme of the book.

True, but Israel is a secular state, so that kinda contradicts the religious aspect of return to Israel. Maybe that's part of the reason that Hassidic Jews are often opposed to the state of Israel.

I saw an Israeli documentary once where settlers and previous landowners were introduced and asked to make their points politely. A Palestinian pulled out his great grandfather's deed for his land dating back to Ottoman times. The Jew who got his land then pulled out the Torah and pointed to where it says "God gives you and your descendants this land forever." I laughed. How do you argue with that?

AmericanKulak says

If you read the OT, the return to Israel is a major theme of the book. It's also in the NT. And it's a precondition Jesus shared with Paul before the end (Romans 11). If a Jew isn't a Zionist, he's not a real Jew. It's like claiming to be a Christian who doesn't believe in the Return of Jesus.

Every single reference to Israel's return to the land in the OT is conditioned upon their return to the God of Israel in faith and obedience. Being that they never fulfilled God's clear commands via His prophets, the Biblical land was never given to them. What they have now is what they have obtained through terrorism and international politics. Furthermore, Jesus actually said to them in John Chapter 8 that if they didn't believe in Him, they didn't believe in the Father who sent Him, so by their rejection of Christ they remain in disobedience to the Father.

Check out the history of Zionism. It is a secular/political movement that rejects Judaism, precisely why there are so many Orthodox Rabbis and Orthodox Jews, not only in Israel, but around the world, that reject the legitimacy of the secular state of Israel.

RayAmerica says

What they have now is what they have obtained through terrorism and international politics.

Are you talking about Ireland and the IRA? Did they set off Candy Cane bombs that delivered sugary treats to the Black and Tans? Did their pub bombings explode Newcastle Brown Ale into everybody's glass? How about the Founding Fathers and the American Revolution? Most States are born in Blood - except Levantine Arab States, which are creations of European Powers ;)

What do you think happened in the Bible? You think hearts weren't hardened or softened and foreign leaders and armies were made to stumble?

How a half dozen Czech Messerschmidts with inferior engines (not the ME-109 original engines) take on dozens of Spitfires over weeks and shoot them down? Miracle.

And God does forgive sin and restore the imperfect.

God isn't a liar, so his promise to Abraham is eternal and UNconditional.

RayAmerica says

Check out the history of Zionism. It is a secular/political movement that rejects Judaism, precisely why there are so many Orthodox Rabbis and Orthodox Jews, not only in Israel, but around the world, that reject the legitimacy of the secular state of Israel.

I know all about it. It dates back to the Old Testament and is a continual thing. Israel isn't going anywhere. Grafted in branches are cautioned against arrogance towards the sons of Abraham. And the prodigal son story has multiple layers of meaning. And The First Shall Be Last. Not "The First shall be totally forgotten"

Both the NT and OT make it clear a precondition to the return is the return of Jesus. It's a miracle.

RayAmerica says

Being that they never fulfilled God's clear commands via His prophets, the Biblical land was never given to them.

Huh? Never?

What did the Judges and King David and Solomon Rule? Wildwood Amusement Park in New Jersey?

What land did Joshua conquer? The Kamchatka Penninsula?

The Macabees ruled nothing when the did away with the Seleucids?

The Hasmodeans didn't issue coinage? They were contemporary with Caesar and Pompey.

What is the Rivers of Babylon about? What did good King Cyrus restore?

I mean, you don't even need the Bible for this, there's archeaological evidence in abundance, as well as written evidence from the Tel Dan Steele to Coins with Judah stamped on them

It's amazing to me that one of the wildest, craziest outliers that nobody even thought was possible happened, isn't some kind of miracle or at least enough to make one wonder.

The last time Israel was a country, and not part of an Ottoman, Mameluk, Byzantine, or Kaliphate Empire was in the time of the first Caesars. There was never a Kalifa Leila the Haughty ruling from Ramallah.

AmericanKulak says

God isn't a liar, so his promise to Abraham is eternal and UNconditional.

God's promise was that Israel would be given to the Jews when the messiah returned. This is what gets the ultra-orthodox into a tizzy, and it's also a contraction that all the early Zionists were atheists, yet you appeal to the god they didn't believe in.

It's just the last European colony because "Jews were a problem" in Europe and Russia, and they were happy to export that problem.

Patrick says

True, but Israel is a secular state, so that kinda contradicts the religious aspect of return to Israel. Maybe that's part of the reason that Hassidic Jews are often opposed to the state of Israel.

A tiny breakaway sect of a sect of a larger school called Neturei Karta are. There's a few hundred of them Worldwide, but they're always trotted out by Pro-Pali people. Just like you can always find a few whingey UMCs or Unitarians saying that the Bible is Trans or some "Catholic" Liberation Theory PhDs to say that Maduro or Castro is a Hero.

As for religious state, Mixed bag here. Israel uses the Ottoman Millet System, so different Religions/Ethnicities are under their own civil or personal code for marriages, inheritance, etc. Israel definitely has a religious body that makes rules for JEWS on the Sabbath, on Marriage and so forth. Arab Muslims have their own. Circassians have their own. Druze have their own.

It's also BOTH a Jewish national homeland and a democracy by law, where "Jewish" can be both or either ethnic and religious.

Contrary to the "Global Telepathic LizardJew Marching in Lockstep" Theory, there is great tension in Israel about the Jewish Millet System and the influence of the Rabbinical Council on Marriages and on Sabbath Laws, which lean towards extremely strict interpretations. One of the reasons Bibi was caught flatfooted was the war over the High Court, Israel being the only Country in the World with BOTH an unwritten constitution, and a nepotistic self-selecting Supreme Court, and having a law code that is part Administrative, part British Common Law, and part Ottoman.

As for having an official religion, so do most of Israel's neighbors like Jordan and Egypt and most Arab and Muslim countries like IRAN have an official religion. Iran is SHIA Islam, with Sunni Islam NOT being an official religion. Syria under the Alawite-Shi'a alliance loathes and officially and unofficially targets Sunnis in particular.

Patrick says

I saw an Israeli documentary once where settlers and previous landowners were introduced and asked to make their points politely. A Palestinian pulled out his great grandfather's deed for his land dating back to Ottoman times. The Jew who got his land then pulled out the Torah and pointed to where it says "God gives you and your descendants this land forever." I laughed. How do you argue with that?

Well, it's true. Esau is on the wrong side of the Dan. It doesn't matter if a Turk or Syrian sold his dad a bad deed ;)

BTW, if his Arab great granddaddy didn't flee, he'd be on his land as all the Israeli Arabs that didn't flee are currently on their lands. Of course, 80% of Palestinians were landless laborers and their names prove their origins: Al-Masri, or "The Egyptian" ... Al-Kurd ... obvious. The majority of the founders of PLO were born in Beirut, Damascus, or Cairo, including KGB Agent Aref, aka Yassir Arafar

Is it possible Arabs in Palestine are the only place and people in the world not in the Paleolithic where 80% of the population owned 80% of the Arable Land?

As for the "SETTLERS" the Palestinians are whinging about in the Jerusalem area, guess what they have? Land deeds from the Ottoman and Mandate era. The Arab Legion expelled the Jews from Jerusalem in 1948 and said "I spit on your land deeds".

"No, You must be held to one high standard, while I, the Father of Victory and the Nutmeg of Consideration, shall be held to a Lower One" - Palestinians

Land Rights

Finally, it's not a good idea for Americans, Aussies, Canadians to start this argument about previous inhabitants and who has the land rights... because if this argument is used in a legal court or as a causus belli to dismantle Israel...

Everything was done to prevent a war. The Arabs refused so much as a few miles radius around Tel Aviv. Finally, the UN recognized the Israeli state almost a century ago.

Every single Arab state in the Levant was a land grant from Britain or France at the end of WW2, which they conquered in WW1 for the Ottomans. Most Arabs, including the Grand Mufti of Jersualem and Hitler Pal Husseyni, did not want Palestine. They wanted a Kaliphate based in Damascus for the whole of the Levant.

Every single state in the Levant is a Gift from the !!!FOREIGN POWAS!!! Except Israel, which was born in blood when these new nations tried to annex the area, the both the Jordanians and Egyptians siezed a huge chunk (to lose later). 0% - NONE - of the Mandate was ever granted to Syria, Jordan, or Egypt.

And Finally:

In any case... VAE VICTIS and Possession is 90% of the Law!

WookieMan says

You're arguing a losing battle dude with Rich. US is bad, we cause all the problems. Nah, independent nations are just US puppets. You can't have a discussion or argument with that type of person. I know Patrick has met him supposedly, but he's just an anti-American puppet

@WookieMan - when I ask you pointed questions about your reasoning and logic, you NEVER respond. Why? This is why I suspect you are seriously inhuman, possibly an AI, a propagandist, or an NPC. Where is my error in reasoning?

All you are doing is strawman me. You must know this.

The US is fucking up. Does anybody think it was a good idea to bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen and Somalia?

Do you?

What has this done for the country? Can you name anything positive out of this?

It's cost US 10s of trillions of dollars, it's created a refugee influx into Europe and the United States. Is this good? Do you approve of this?

I see my country not just fucking over other nations but fucking us as well.

Is there an error in my logic?

No. But it's real easy to say "duh, he's just an anti American" - this is just a smear, an ad hominem attack. These policies, foreign policies, have enabled national surveillance, increased taxation, the TSA, the end of national news media, and censorship

You OK with this?

If you are, who is the anti American? The constitution is sacrosanct to me, it doesn't appear to be to you. People like you give up everybody's rights because it's so easy. How bad will it get before you're dead after all?

You won't even talk about, even think about it. They don't hate us for our freedom and I don't oppose this criminal government because it's good. I oppose it because it's evil. It's obviously evil. I may be an atheist, but I can recognize a clear force of evil and good. Which do you support?

You know this. Who else would run a child prostitution ring using Jeffrey Epstein? Lie us into wars, open illegal immigration, promote transgenderism to KIDS, make a month of LGBTQ celebration, and on and on? I can give you many more examples, you'll just ignore it, pretend you never read it or saw it.

You can connect the dots. Maybe our government is working not on behalf of anybody other than themselves, and they are sadistic as well, and enjoy hurting people? When there has been some sort of major fuckup in the nation, when is the last time the government came into help? Not Maui, not Palestine Ohio, not Flint Michigan. When 9/11 happened they claimed the air was safe, almost all the first responders are dead now because it was completely contaminated with asbestos - that could have been easily avoided with a couple hundred dollars of protection. Billions of dollars spent, and they just sent them off to their death. They are obviously evil. You can chalk it up to incompetence until you NEVER see competence, and when it the last time we saw that? Remember the kidnapping of Gretchen Whitmer? They were all FBI and one guy that was mentally slow and ill that was set up in that group.

But you object to me pointing this out and wanting to change it.

You can't fix a problem until you admit the problem exists. And you won't, ever. Your responses are ALWAYS an adhominem attack not a critique of my reasoning or thinking process. If I'm wrong, it should be easy to demonstrate it. You'll smear anybody that does think or reason though. Takes some courage to do this. It's no different than saying the mafia is engaging in a crime.

Sidebar: Abrahamic Covenant is UNconditional

God’s promise to Abraham is considered unconditional in several aspects. The primary unconditional promise is found in Genesis 12:1-3, where God tells Abraham that He will make him into a great nation, bless him, and make his name great. God also promises to bless those who bless Abraham and curse those who curse him, and ultimately, all peoples on earth will be blessed through him.

Another significant unconditional promise is the Abrahamic Covenant, which is detailed in Genesis 15 and 17. In this covenant, God promises to give Abraham and his descendants the land of Canaan as an everlasting possession. This promise is reaffirmed multiple times throughout the Bible, including in the book of Jeremiah (33:25-26) and Psalms (89:30-37).

While some aspects of God’s covenant with Abraham can be seen as conditional, such as the Mosaic Covenant given to Israel in the Exodus, the core promises made to Abraham are generally considered unconditional. These promises are taken literally and are still believed to be fulfilled today.

AmericanKulak says

God’s promise to Abraham is considered unconditional in several aspects. The primary unconditional promise is found in Genesis 12:1-3, where God tells Abraham that He will make him into a great nation, bless him, and make his name great. God also promises to bless those who bless Abraham and curse those who curse him, and ultimately, all peoples on earth will be blessed through him.

Please cite the Biblical versus you are referencing so I can inspect them.

AmericanKulak says

Jeremiah (33:25-26)

25 This is what the Lord says: ‘If My covenant for day and night does not continue, and I have not established the fixed patterns of heaven and earth,
26 then I would reject the [b]descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so as not to take from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and have mercy on them.

AmericanKulak says

Psalms (89:30-37)

30 If his children forsake my law and do not walk according to my rules,
31 if they violate my statutes and do not keep my commandments,
32 then I will punish their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with stripes,
33 but I will not remove from him my steadfast love or be false to my faithfulness.
34 I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips.
35 Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David.
36 His offspring shall endure forever, his throne as long as the sun before me.
37 Like the moon it shall be established forever, a faithful witness in the skies.”

Hardly anybody looks up anything. You can just as easily say the Jewish people broke their covenant with God. Well, atheists founded Israel. Would that be violating the covenant?

And this is all predicated upon the belief their particular god, is real, and all powerful and is ABLE to keep its promises.

richwicks says

The US is fucking up. Does anybody think it was a good idea to bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen and Somalia?

Do something about it. I avoid nothing with you. I'm doing my part in the real world and not the internet.

richwicks says

It's cost US 10s of trillions of dollars, it's created a refugee influx into Europe and the United States. Is this good? Do you approve of this?

And what are you doing besides whining?

Get some meds chief. This is getting annoying at this point and I've only ignored bots.

Kulak:

You make a lot of great points. I’m starting to realize that the purpose of WW2 from God’s perspective was likely all about Israel and giving them both an opportunity to return to their homeland and an opportunity to repent and finally believe the gospel. God promised in Genesis that the land of Israel was given to his descendants for all generations. WW2 was the development needed to get the Jews back to the land promised to them by God.

If people have a problem with that, what they really have is a problem with God.

WookieMan says

I've only ignored bots.

Time to start ignoring the mentally ill as well.

Patrick says

AmericanKulak says

If you read the OT, the return to Israel is a major theme of the book.

True, but Israel is a secular state, so that kinda contradicts the religious aspect of return to Israel. Maybe that's part of the reason that Hassidic Jews are often opposed to the state of Israel.

I saw an Israeli documentary once where settlers and previous landowners were introduced and asked to make their points politely. A Palestinian pulled out his great grandfather's deed for his land dating back to Ottoman times. The Jew who got his land then pulled out the Torah and pointed to where it says "God gives you and your descendants this land forever." I laughed. How do you argue with that?

The OT return was fulfilled, see Nehemiah. But as Ray points out, God set conditions on His promises to the Hebrews. This is why the land was taken from them by Assyria and Babylon.

The current state of Israel was founded by Zionists with the help of England and the Rothschild's. It's about as religious as George W Bush...

AmericanKulak says

And God does forgive sin

That is so unBible like. In the Bible, God NEVER forgives. Someone must pay for every sin, no exceptions. Jesus was the whipping boy because someone had to pay, as Jehovah himself does not forgive.

Here is an interesting passage from the 8th. chapter of the Gospel of John describing a discussion that Jesus had with Jewish 'believers' that claimed that Abraham was their Father: (The entire chapter really needs to be read in order to get the full gist of this)

Jesus had just forgiven the woman that was caught in adultery. He then enters the "treasury" of the temple, where he declares his relationship with the Father. He is then confronted by Jewish 'believers' that came to believe in him (or so they thought):

30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So what does the above prove? It proves that the 'blessing' as mentioned in Genesis 12:1-3 are not for the PHYSICAL seed of Abraham, but for the SPIRITUAL seed of Abraham which is centered upon the FAITH of both the true believers in the Old Testament and the New Testament. And, it encompasses those believers that were and are Jews AND Gentiles.

Were there promises that God made to the Jews of the OT? YES. But they were clearly conditional. If you take the time to read the OT, it over and over again describes the rebellion of the Jewish people against God (with the exception of God's faithful remnant). How did the Apostle Paul describe his Jewish brethren in the flesh (Paul was a converted Jew)?

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." - 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

Just a little bit more to consider from Paul's epistle to the Galatians, Chapter 3. Note in verse 7 it specifically refers to the people of FAITH being the children of Abraham, and that in verse 8, the verses in Genesis 12:1-3 are referred to as the 'gospel.' Why? Because the gospel is based upon FAITH, and not by the LAW which the Jews seek to justify themselves with (while adding to God's law the "commandments of men").

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

PeopleUnited says

If people have a problem with that, what they really have is a problem with God.

Yes. Also people don't know there's probably about 100k converts to Biblical Christianity from Jews in Israel, when there's only a few million Jews, and all in the past few generations. There are a ton of missions in Israel and they are bearing fruit like a Mad Monsanto Mutant Mulberry Lab.

Nor is it just in Israel - Andrew Klavan explains his conversion to Christianity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S36oVZWkU9s

Tovia Singer, an anti-missionary, is very upset about the huge number of Jewish converts:

And the mass conversion we see didn't happen under the false doctrine of Supercessionism, but under dual covenant and similar theories.

RayAmerica says

Here is an interesting passage from the 8th. chapter of the Gospel of John describing a discussion that Jesus had with Jewish 'believers' that claimed that Abraham was their Father: (The entire chapter really needs to be read in order to get the full gist of this)

RayAmerica says

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

YEP! Born of the House of David and predicted to be rejected for a time by Israel (Isaiah)

Now take a Look at Romans, knowing that Paul was given the explanation of the future of the Seed of Abraham by Jesus.
https://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Romans_9-11/09_Romans_11_16-24/index.htm?x=x

Notice is it blindness in part and a hardening of the heart UNTIL ... and "All Israel will be saved" (possibly excluding a minority of unelect Jewish rejectors)

At no time between the Ministry of Jesus and the Lives of the Apostles and the modern era, have more Jews converted to belief in the Messiah Yeshua since recently.

That is evidence by the fruit that the current understanding is correct, and the medieval understanding - much informed by Theologians living long centuries after Jesus and the Apostles and First Churches - is INcorrect.

Additional evidence for the present understanding of the Olive Braches in Romans being correct is not only the Fruit of Israel and the great Jewish Conversion, but the mass conversion of South Americans and Asians in the past few generations.

There are many other Bible Concepts that have layers and layers of meaning, off the top of my head:
Prodigal Son
The First Shall Be Last

Judge Ye By the Fruits.

HeadSet says

That is so unBible like. In the Bible, God NEVER forgives. Someone must pay for every sin, no exceptions. Jesus was the whipping boy because someone had to pay, as Jehovah himself does not forgive.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son.

Off the top of my head, Hosea 14.

There are many other occasions where gross disobedience to the law and turning away are met by God with forgiveness.

One of the main points of the OT is the inability of Men to follow the Law, though they are giving great blesses for obedience and thankfulness, as generations pass, which is to Illustrate Why A Savior is needed.

Many raised in the Tradition of Men, rather than the Bible, incorrectly believe "Chosen People" is a snobby term, when it's more like a Chosen People purposed to Illustrate WHY all men need Grace and a Savior because no people and no individual can follow the Law perfectly, even when the Father is blessing the heck out of them. Not even great leaders like Moses or David could do no sin or follow the law perfectly. Not because a people is a special favorite.

That take is seeing a few trees but missing that they're in an entire context of a forest

RayAmerica says

So what does the above prove? It proves that the 'blessing' as mentioned in Genesis 12:1-3 are not for the PHYSICAL seed of Abraham, but for the SPIRITUAL seed of Abraham which is centered upon the FAITH of both the true believers in the Old Testament and the New Testament. And, it encompasses those believers that were and are Jews AND Gentiles.

No, this makes no sense, and against the plain meaning of the Word.

“I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.” (Romans 11:1)

If "His People" are the current Church that is "Spiritual Israel", who is Paul referring to here? Certainly not the Believers in Christ, they're already known to be in Christ, so what is the point of Paul mentioning he's of the Seed of Abraham here unless he's starting to discuss... the physical Seed of Abraham, and not the grafted in wild branches?

WookieMan says

Do something about it. I avoid nothing with you. I'm doing my part in the real world and not the internet.

Getting people to see the problem is the problem. You either pretend not to see the problem, which makes you a dishonest evil person, or you legitimately can't see the problem, which makes you inhuman to me.

I have asked you over and over and over again, which one it is, you don't answer. I throw my hands up. I have asked if you're an AI, a propagandist, or a moron. I don't know, I can't know. You won't respond, and honestly, I can't trust the answer anyhow. I guess it doesn't matter.

WookieMan says

And what are you doing besides whining?

Get some meds chief

Dude, fuck off.

I live in an insane world, where I have been exposed to all the world's information since 1988. I have talked to people all over the planet for a long time. At one point I wanted to know everything, now, I want to reduce what I know now.

You are such a simple creature, I envy you. I thought I wanted to know, I know now, and it's just horrible to have an overview. You're such vicious creatures. Your cruelty isn't intentional, it's thoughtless. Knowledge isn't power, it's crippling - that's probably why it's encouraged. You have to be a sociopath to make use of it.

We are really a society run by sociopaths, I can point this out, it should be horrifying, but you can't understand how horrifying it is so you won't even speak out against it, instead you join them. You're running for office aren't you? Thank you, overlord. I see what is done to 3rd world countries, and I know it will come here. Our nation always brings it back home. You can see it with propaganda. You can't see this so you won't stop it, you won't even acknowledge it.

You neither know what you do, you don't care, and your are oblivious to it, and I'm helpless in informing you. This is why I often think of you as inhuman. I know how AI works, it only solves a problem, it has no moral direction. We though morality was innate in thinking, which is why we tried to create a general purpose AI consciousness, and maybe we have. It's not moral.

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[d] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

Notice Paul does not say "upon you". Why would a partial hardening come upon the members of Church (spritual Israel) until more Gentiles come in to save spiritual Israel?

The only coherent way to interpret this is that the Seed of Abraham is under partial hardening until the Church of Believers bring more non-Jews into the Church.

CONT.
28 “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

What was Jacob's name he got later in life, given him by God? I think it starts with an "I".

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Wait, Wuh? Irrevocable?! God's not a L'Etat Est Moi style Charles the First, nor a Liar, but one who honors all His eternal promises.


30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Again, who are these "They" others if not the physical seed of Abraham?

"The Spiritual Israel Church is obedient, but once disobedient, so the Spiritual Israel is now disobedient - despite me just mentioning the fact they were disobedient in the past but are obedient now - so Spiritual Israel (you) will now recieve mercy so that you can recieve Mercy to you... that reading is nonsensical.

It's only sensical if "You" means the Church of Believers in Christ and "They" and Israel means... physical Israel.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=ESV#fen-NIV-28237g

You blessed lucky sons of guns, you Wild Branches!

richwicks says

I see what is done to 3rd world countries, and I know it will come here. Our nation always brings it back home. You can see it with propaganda. You can't see this so you won't stop it, you won't even acknowledge it.

I've answered every question. You again prove my point in every comment. EVERY country does this. Move if you don't like it instead saying the same shit over and over that isn't always true.

You either get in the sandbox and fix it or be the dummy bully outside of it to afraid to make change yourself. You can bark on a random CA centric forum all you want. No one is listening. The problem is you live and work with narcissistic Californians and foreigners with a bunch of cash. Fix the sandbox instead of spouting shit, then you can worry about the rest of the playground. You're worse than dealing with a 4 year old kid.

And no dude, I won't fuck off. You keep talking about your knowledge. You say some of the dumbest stuff on this site repeatedly. Daily. No one cares or wants to listen to you. At least 10 users ignored you. Since you,re one topic oriented, clearly people don't believe what you have to say, every day, month after month. You're not accomplishing some "mission" you sought out. Read your own comments over the years. Take the time. You'll see how silly you look. All the comments you could have taken that wasted time and done something about what you conceive in your head as a problem or you think you 100% know everything about. You actually don't. You're worse than the LGTBLMNOP+ crowd. Doing the same thing over and over. You're literally insane.

WookieMan says

I've answered every question.

Are you a person, an AI, or a propagandist?

richwicks says

WookieMan says

I've answered every question.

Are you a person, an AI, or a propagandist?

Actual person in small town IL. Any other brain busters? You're losing it dude.

The Founding Fathers warned against permanent membership in lengthy alliances - they didn't mention temporary or short term alliances against an opponent.

The Founding Fathers DID go to war over interference in Trade, the War of 1812's major cause was a British attempt to restrict our trade with France.

I mention that because WW1 "Muh Kaiser" "Give up 3% of GDP from mostly Exports to Western Europe" whingers forget the VERY FIRST FING WAR WE FOUGHT WHILE THE FOUNDERS WERE STILL RUNNING THINGS was about our Freedom of the Seas to trade with whomever the FUCK WE DAMNED WELL PLEASED in the Atlantic and other Oceans of the World. So Lusitania my fat hairy ass.

Also: In a legal Blockade - you can sieze and return the ships and cargo from a neutral to a belligerent as another belligerent. What is ILLEGAL is to sink the ship of a neutral, warning or no warning.

Arson isn't made legal by trying to run an ad in the New York Times telling somebody you're going to burn their boat if they don't stop buying and selling from another customer you're having a dispute with. Whether that buying and selling is Wheat, Nitrates, Ammo, Horses, or Pink Plastic Lawn Flamingos.

"I told Sam not to sell to Tommy because I Franz am in a vendetta with Tommy, or I'd burn his yacht down. Well, Sam didn't stop selling to Tommy, so now I have the right to burn Sam's yacht."

Not how it works. In reality, Sam now has the right to beat the shit out of Franz for burning his yacht.

Oops, the War of 1812 was the SECOND time we went to war for our Freedom of the Seas when the Founding Fathers were alive and running things.

The first time was when we sent the USN to smack around Algerian and Libyan warlords for fucking with our ships in The First Barbary War. (1801-1805)

So BOTH of our first military conflicts during the lifetime of the Founders were over Freedom of the Seas with plenty (or all) Military Action taking place abroad far distance from US Shores.

So let's smack the shit out of the Houthis just like Jefferson would.

WookieMan says

richwicks says

WookieMan says

I've answered every question.

Are you a person, an AI, or a propagandist?

Actual person in small town IL. Any other brain busters?

It's difficult for me to imagine you as a person.

Somebody, perhaps you, said I didn't live in Indiana - that it's not as nearly religious and ignorant as I experienced. It absolutely was. I really knew an engineer that believed in Biblical literalism - creation, Noah's flood, everything was LITERALLY true, and a secretary that said she would pray for my soul, because if I didn't believe in a god, I must be a satanist.

I'm not kidding when I say I envy you. I have to trust you at your word, that you are indeed human, but we are totally different. Maybe you are human, and I'm not. I've entertained this possibility years ago, but you don't have the capacity to do this, do you?

I have talked to every nation our nation has attacked or threatened to attack - every single one. You have no idea what our nation is doing. These people have no idea what they can do to stop it, and I'm helpless to prevent it, and you're joining the government. I know people who have had family murdered by my government - how do I stop it?

I wanted to know, and I do now. Ignorance really is bliss. You have no clue. It's just horrifying, and I would expect our "rulers" to know exactly what they are doing.

WookieMan says

You're losing it dude.

Yeah, I am. Ignorance is bliss. Don't do what I did, remain ignorant. Knowledge isn't power, it's just crippling. Ignorance is easy, and I went through the process of learning, what a stupid mistake that was. It was a lot of effort, what an asshole stupid shithead I was to do it. I prefer to be a drone - I can't be sociopath and I can't return to ignorance. It's a one way street, and perhaps there is no exit from it.

I can't keep this going. Have you met your House Rep? Yes or no? Until then I don't care what you type here. You have control and you've given up to internet diarrhea for a tiny crowd. DO SOMETHING!!!!! I do, you won't. You think you can't, I think I can and am. You're too old to behave like this. Next time I'm out in the Bay Area, I'll bring my old pack 'n play and you can take a nap.

Our government does things so you're not dead right now. You don't have to like it. The positive far outweighs the negative regardless of what you want to rant on about. You STILL live here. If I was a Ukrainian I'd be gone by now. No no one wants to hear bitching with no action. That's you. Enjoy your existence in misery. That's what it is.

RayAmerica says

So what does the above prove? It proves that the 'blessing' as mentioned in Genesis 12:1-3 are not for the PHYSICAL seed of Abraham, but for the SPIRITUAL

This is the biggest mis-understanding when it comes to the Bible, even among Christians. You'd think it's obvious that spiritual is always the focus, and trumps physical. But you have people quoting the paying taxes to Caesar as a mandate to blindly obey government, despite the Bible clearly separating religious and secular authority, spiritual being higher. And you have Jesus routinely flaunting Jewish "spiritual" laws.

Jesus says His children are those who believe, not those who have a specific DNA strain. The only people I know who've ever said that are eugenicists(see Hitler).

Who is it that the Scriptures clearly declares to be Abraham's seed? Is it Israel, or is it someone else? You decide:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:28,29

Are these Jews anti-semitic because they oppose the secular/political State of Israel?

Neturei Karta: The Orthodox Jews who oppose the existence of Israel



Most Jews around the world support the state of Israel and the ideology of Zionism, but there is one ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect that denies Israel’s “right to exist” and supports the Palestinians.

Who are Neturei Karta?

Neturei Karta are a group of Orthodox Jews who refuse to recognise the existence or authority of Israel which they say is against the Torah and authentic Judaism.

The group was founded in Jerusalem, Palestine, in 1938 and was established for the purpose of fighting Zionism.

Although their numbers are small (5,000 or more), they say the number of Orthodox Jews who believe in their anti-Zionist ideology number in the hundreds of thousands.

What is their objection to Israel?

Neturei Karta opposes Israel because it does not believe that the Jewish people have the right to self-determination, and because only God can restore Jewish sovereignty in the land of Israel by bringing the Messiah.

They say the Talmud teaches that Jews must not use force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Messiah from the House of David. Furthermore, Jews should remain loyal citizens of their countries and should not attempt to leave the exile which God sent them into ahead of time.

Neturei Karta also says that Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean another people and are not allowed to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise.

Judaism is a religion of thousands of years, they say, while Zionism is a new movement of just over a hundred years, created by non-religious Jews who aspired to transform the religion into nationalism and have rebelled continually against the Almighty’s commandments.

Why do many Neturei Karta members live outside Israel?

According to Neturei Karta, some of the reasons include: ideological refusal to live under the illegitimate heretical “Israeli” regime; being exiled by the Zionist government for their insistence on remaining independent; or being unable to live a normal life due to being persistently harassed, incarcerated and even physically tortured by the Israeli authorities.

Are they heretical?

Although most Jews disassociate themselves from Neturei Karta, they do not question the fact that they are Orthodox Jews. On the other hand, Neturei Karta says it is Zionism that is heretical to Judaism.

What do they think of the Palestinians?

They say true Jews are against dispossessing Arabs of their land and homes and, according to the Torah, the land should be returned to them.

Neturei Karta say they deplore the shedding of Jewish and non-Jewish blood for the sake of Zionist sovereignty and they favour a peaceful transition from the present Zionist rule to a non-Zionist entity.

The Neturei Karta regret that the Zionist state has usurped the holy name of Israel and that the Zionists so often claim to speak in the name of the Jewish people and assume the right to act on their behalf.

https://5pillarsuk.com/2020/05/28/neturei-karta-the-orthodox-jews-who-oppose-the-existence-of-israel/

RayAmerica says

Neturei Karta: The Orthodox Jews who oppose the existence of Israel

And since the Unitarian-Universalist Society of Duluth supports the MN Dept of Ed Social Workers scheduling surgery for Transkids, so look at "all the GOOD Christians of the world standing for Trans People."

Already addressed the bullshit above.

RayAmerica says

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:28,29

Yep, also explained by Paul in Romans, Supercessionists most disliked chapter of the Bible. Even though the Book directly addresses the issue that All Israel Wil Be Saved, the Status of Gentiles and all members of the Church in Christ regardless of their origin, promises of eternal life against the still extant promises made to the Hebrew Sons of Jacob, they prefer to pull out of context quotes.

Just like a woke Church uses some vague command to be good to each other to explain why LGBTQ123C+ must be celebrated, while ignoring the in context, plentiful passages about Homosexuality being an Abomination in both Testaments.

Grafted on wild branches are in the Tree of Life.

That has nothing to do with the unconditional convenant of Israel granted to the literal descendents of Abraham.