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Retirement - How much does one need - Truth and Lies


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2024 Jun 7, 1:35pm   2,036 views  99 comments

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If you want to retire in comfort, investment firms and news headlines tell us, you may need
$1 million in the bank.
Or maybe not. One prominent economist says you can retire for a lot less: $50,000 to
$100,000 in total savings. He points to the experiences of actual retirees as evidence.
“You Don’t Need to Be a Millionaire to Retire,” says the headline of a column penned by
Andrew Biggs, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute think tank, and published
in April in The Wall Street Journal.
Most Americans retire with nowhere near $1 million in savings. The notion that we need that
much money to fund a secure retirement arises from opinion polls, personal finance columns
and two or three rules of thumb that suffuse the financial planning business.
Financial advisers tell you to save 10 times your annual salary for retirement, enough cash
that you can live on 4% of the balance for a year. In one widely reported survey, Americans
said they would need $1.46 million in the bank to retire comfortably.
Biggs disagrees. To prove his point, the economist looked at responses to the federal Survey
of Household Economics and Decisionmaking between 2019 and 2022.
The survey asked retirement-age Americans, 65 to 74, how well they were managing
financially.
A majority, roughly 85%, said they were just fine: They were living comfortably, or at least
“doing OK.”
Only 15% said they were struggling.
The finding matters, Biggs says, because most retirees have much less than $1 million in the
bank. In the federal survey, the typical senior who reported a satisfactory retirement had
$50,000 to $100,000 in savings.
“It’s impossible to find any evidence that seniors need even a fraction of $1.46 million in
savings to be financially secure,” Biggs wrote.
2/4
By his argument, retirees don’t need nearly so much savings as financial planners say they
do.
The average couple that retired in 2022 reaped nearly $46,000 in annual Social Security
benefits, by Biggs’s calculations. While that sum is “hardly extravagant,” he wrote, “a typical
couple can expect an income more than twice the elderly poverty threshold before they touch
a penny of their own savings.”
Biggs says retirement planners overstate how much income retirees actually need, and how
much they will spend, essentially as a way to drum up business.
Reactions to Biggs’s column ranged from admiration to outrage. Some readers reposted the
piece on X with praise. One critic quipped, “You don’t need to be a millionaire to retire and do
NOTHING!!!”
Biggs is a noted conservative economist and something of a contrarian. Earlier this year, he
and a colleague sparked outrage with a paper that argued for eliminating the 401(k) plan.
His new assertion, that people don’t need a million dollars to retire in comfort, flies in the face
of common wisdom in the retirement planning industry.
“What about rising health care costs?” said Lili Vasileff, a certified financial planner in
Greenwich, Connecticut. “What about more older adult children living for free with older
parents? What about divorces in later life that halve all assets on the cusp of retirement?”
Perhaps the most provocative claim in Biggs’s analysis is that only a few retirees face
financial challenges.
Alicia Munnell, director of the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College (and a past
collaborator with Biggs), estimates that at least two-fifths of retirees are struggling financially.
In the 2022 edition of the federal Survey of Consumer Finances, when seniors were asked
how they would handle a financial emergency, only 58% said they could rely on savings. To
Munnell, that figure reflects the depth of financial insecurity among retirees.
Why, then, did only 15% of seniors in the other federal survey, cited by Biggs, say they were
struggling?
Munnell thinks many retirees are reluctant to discuss their financial problems in surveys.
“When people are asked about their well-being, I think there’s a certain pride,” she said. “You
don’t want to say, ‘I really screwed up.’”
Though Munnell disagrees with Biggs on the financial well-being of American retirees, she
applauds his stance that you don’t need a million dollars to retire.
3/4
“I don’t think it helps to hold out unrealistic savings goals and to exaggerate how much
money people need to fund a comfortable retirement,” she said.
The million-dollar retirement is a frustrating quest, Munnell said, because most of us do not
retire as millionaires.
The typical senior with a retirement account has about $200,000 saved, according to data for
households in the 65-74 age range from the 2022 Survey of Consumer Finances.
But only about half of those households report having retirement accounts at all.
On this point, Biggs and his colleagues disagree. He contends that many seniors have other
kinds of savings, not to mention pensions. Munnell believes that Biggs is overconfident in the
security of American retirees.
“I don’t know people, really, who have retirement savings who don’t have a retirement
account,” she said.
Retirement experts often say people will need about 80% of their preretirement income to
fund their retirement years.
Social Security covers only about half of that, according to the Social Security Administration.
And so, for a comfortable retirement, we are urged to save.
One rule dictates that we should try to save 10 times our annual salary to supplement our
Social Security income. For a typical American household, that comes to nearly $750,000, or
10 times the median household income of $74,580.
And then there is the 4% rule: Plan to withdraw 4% of your retirement savings to cover your
annual living expenses, adjusting the figure for inflation each year.
Some experts say 4% is too low; others contend it’s too high. Either way, the message is
clear: If you are going to live on a single-digit percentage of your retirement savings, you will
need a lot of it.
Biggs believes those rules exist largely so that investment houses can sell investment
products, and so personal-finance websites can attract pageviews.
He points to the 80% rule: Not many retirees, he reasons, will ever spend that much of their
working income in retirement.
“For a long time, 70% was the recommended mean for middle-income retirees,” he said in an
email to USA TODAY, “and it’s crept up without (to my mind) particularly strong evidence.”
4/4
The 4% rule is a little harder to critique, he said, “but one thing we now know is that retirees
reduce their spending pretty significantly as they age.” Older retirees travel less, eat less and
spend less on children, Biggs said. Medical costs rise, but insurance covers most of them.
Retirement experts say the guidelines are meant as aspirational goals for working people to
plan their retirement.
“Those rules of thumb are helpful for folks in their early career, their mid-career,” said
Douglas Ornstein, a director with TIAA Wealth Management, part of the financial services
nonprofit. “By the time you’re five years out from retirement, those rules are probably not so
helpful anymore.”
No two retirements are alike, financial advisers say. Some retirees are still making mortgage
payments or supporting grandchildren. Others have neither dependents nor debt.
“If you’re living in Manhattan, yeah, you probably need a million dollars, if not more,” said
Christopher Lyman, a certified financial planner in Newtown, Pennsylvania. “If you’re living
out near Lancaster, Pennsylvania, with the Amish, there’s not a lot going on down there. If
you’ve got $50,000, you’re probably OK.”

Source: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/really-1m-retirement-savings-not-091427748.html

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74   brazil66   2024 Jul 2, 9:57am  

I don't think I'll leave SoCal until I age out of surfing.

Quick anecdote for the surfers at PatNet:

I know a full-time county lifeguard who is near the end of his career. He's doing this wild schedule where he works a few days straight, then flies out to San Sebastian, Spain where his wife and son are living. They wanted to live in Europe for a year or so, and his schedule makes it doable (more or less). I saw some footage of the left at Mundaka going off a few months ago, so I texted him and asked if he surfed it that day. He said it was just OGs out there that day. He then told me that Europe is filled with fit, competitive surfers who have LOTS of time off for surfing. I said, "Damn, you're making HB Cliffs sound good."

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side of the planet. I think a lot of the surfing experience is what's going on between your ears.
75   Ceffer   2024 Jul 2, 10:03am  

The perspective is true. My wife's relatives in Louisiana live in large, well built and well appointed homes that wouldn't get you a fleabag trailer in Santa Cruz. They have income to travel as they please and spend time all over the country and abroad in the best accommodations, great resorts, and top flight hotels. They spend a bit of time in California at Tahoe. The key word is 'disposable income' that doesn't interfere with savings or home lifestyle.

I personally don't like travel that much. Spending time in airports, waiting on planes, getting the next destination hookup on time and place, delays, departure drama seems to hold charm for some. It's like breaking and setting up camp over and over. Aside from the occasional spectacle, it's kind of redundant and pointless activity. I like guided tours and learning packages when I do it.

The lady that does my hair goes on cruises and vacations about six or seven times a year. She and her husband are kind of compulsive about it and it does resemble compulsive traveling behavior. She has also described that every fifth or sixth trip or so is kind of a dud and a prolonged unpleasant experience. I heard that from compulsively traveling clients, too, when I had my business.
76   socal2   2024 Jul 2, 10:51am  

brazil66 says

I don't think I'll leave SoCal until I age out of surfing.


Amen!

There are a couple guys at my break who are definitely in their 70's and still killing it.

There is no sport, activity or enjoyment in this world (other than family) that holds a candle to good waves IMHO.
77   WookieMan   2024 Jul 2, 11:03am  

socal2 says

Yeah - but still sounds like you could live pretty comfortably in California. I could cash out and live like a king back east in a much larger house and probably retire 5 years early, but what's the point?

It's income. We don't have plug and replace jobs. I do I guess. Wife's is very specific and the money isn't any better in CA. Frankly the cold weather helps us in her industry. Freeze/thaw cycle every year. So she can make more here with the cold weather.

Plus creating a whole new network is a 2-5 year process. We'd probably drop to $150-200k income out there for a bit not including at least $20-50k moving costs. That doesn't work out there from the research I've done on cost of living.

Again, not bashing. My situation wouldn't work though. I have no issue with humidity right now or the cold months. Perfect? No. But it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Try Duluth, MN. 2 months of summer and then hell. I've been in Ely, MN and the high was 48ºF in July. There are worse places to live and my cost of living allows me to fly to other places. As an insomniac I'm usually only awake at night, so it's not like I could enjoy it out there either. Work or kids activities otherwise.
78   Ceffer   2024 Jul 2, 11:39am  

As usual, California snobs rely on 'Da wedder' pretense and seldom describe social circumstances. I have two friends who were born and raised in California and their Cali Chauvinism is like an old moth eaten coat full of holes. I am fine with them and we enjoy each other, but they literally get up in the morning dreaming of who they are going to fuck over and attack, or how to defend themselves against somebody going after them. My homeowner's in Santa Cruz may as well stock restraining order forms at the office. You can be poor and stoned and get by on welfare and mooches in various ways, but I'm not sure that such minimal lifestyles are rewarding, and in times like now when massive inflation taxation is rampant, those can be pushed out on the ice floes. Even where we bought our place in Santa Cruz, our humble hood has become increasingly gentrified with higher asset/income people.

People continually wonder how they can come to Coastal Cali to battle for their square inches in daily competition assault with money draining out of their pockets, and wind up after fifteen or twenty years with no close friends. We have known people who moved to Nashville or Houston and are incredibly shocked that they have genuine, nice friends, good value systems, and warm welcomes in a matter of months.

The Cali dream lifestyle that used to be accessible to ordinary 'middle class' and even lower middle class has moved increasingly into very high income categories who can also wall themselves off from the razor chatter. There are also increasing numbers of entitled groups of inheritors who can bypass some of the money draining stuff. Also, the rich are astronomically rich in Cali in the coastal areas, and competing with them can be a null proposition if you could be enjoying your life elsewhere.
79   WookieMan   2024 Jul 2, 11:56am  

Ceffer says

The lady that does my hair goes on cruises and vacations about six or seven times a year.

Cruises are a hard no, at least routinely. Every other year or so is fine and fun, especially group trips. Same with all inclusives. We're more national park types or Caribbean (not cruise) and just flat out camping in Wisconsin or locally. I like Montana Piggy back some of the trips paid for by the wife's work. Might do a lake house in Atlanta late summer this year.

I've done the trips every year many times 2-3 times to the panhandle. Love it there, but need a change of pace, so we stopped going around the start of Covid. I don't get the hardcore cruisers or all inclusive people.

I get the flying pain. We just don't pay for it, so it probably doesn't bother me as much. If I'm dropping $250/ticket F that noise. I pay I think $5.60 one way for any flight, which everyone pays. 9/11 fees. TSA does such a great job... said no one. Accidentally brought drugs (weed) onto planes multiple times. Nothing.
80   socal2   2024 Jul 2, 12:14pm  

Ceffer says

As usual, California snobs rely on 'Da wedder' pretense and seldom describe social circumstances. I have two friends who were born and raised in California and their Cali Chauvinism is like an old moth eaten coat full of holes.


Dude - trust me, I know.

I am a transplant from the Midwest and moved here 30 years ago for a job when I got out of school. I am trying to fix this place while I watch all the the so-called "Conservative" California natives flee. I keep saying this place is far too beautiful to abandon it to the Commies, Trannies and weirdos.

That said, there are still tons of great places to live and raise kids here in California. I am fortunate to live in one of the nice places that has sober City and County governance and thank Patrick for this site in helping me score my forever home back in 2011.

I honestly thinking living out here with the great weather and outdoor activities keeps me healthier and hopefully living a longer to enjoy retirement in paradise!
81   WookieMan   2024 Jul 2, 12:17pm  

Ceffer says

We have known people who moved to Nashville or Houston and are incredibly shocked that they have genuine, nice friends, good value systems, and warm welcomes in a matter of months.

I'm looking at Puerto Rico for retirement down the road. If I wanted to stay mainland I'm still convinced that Mississippi on a lake would be a good option 50-100 miles inland from the gulf. Limited hurricane action. Cheap ass property/land. Short drive to the Gulf and beaches. Same with Alabama. I can deal with the summers as they're no different than IL most months. Winter would be much more mild.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/345-Tradewind-Cv_Brandon_MS_39042_M88353-97685?from=srp-list-card

4 hour or so drive to Orange Beach or Pensacola. 6 acres on a lake. Far enough inland. Looks good to me. Would probably come out to $4k property tax. Jackson has a solid airport. I don't think most California folks could handle it though. Lots of blacks and no jobs.
82   stfu   2024 Jul 2, 1:22pm  

WookieMan says

I'm looking


That's a beautiful house and property. I have envy. I'm living in the Appalachian foothills and I thought real estate was cheap here. That house would be well over 1.5 million where I live.
83   WookieMan   2024 Jul 2, 1:45pm  

stfu says

WookieMan says


I'm looking


That's a beautiful house and property. I have envy. I'm living in the Appalachian foothills and I thought real estate was cheap here. That house would be well over 1.5 million where I live.

Exactly. Even in non-sexy IL it would be that much with the acreage.

This is why I say there's a disconnect with the greater population with how a lot of us live. That house is still expensive in my opinion, but toss in close airport access and a relatively quick trip to the best beaches in the country? Seems like a deal. Just have to be willing to deal with bugs and humidity. Few spots on the planet that's happening.

AL and MS are sleeper states in my opinion. Lots of lakefront properties. FL I love, but it's getting overpriced in most areas. Panhandle is trying to hold out, but you need to be 20-40 miles inland.
84   Ceffer   2024 Jul 2, 2:02pm  

socal2 says


I honestly thinking living out here with the great weather and outdoor activities keeps me healthier and hopefully living a longer to enjoy retirement in paradise!

Bread, circuses, constant motion, entertainment, etc. are the substitutes for an anchoring sense of place and pleasant, filial relationships. You could probably say the same for big cities, where the hustle, bustle, exotic entertainments and adrenalin substitute for those relationships.

I love the ocean. Going out just a few feet seem to entirely extricate you from the yammering smoggy masses in an instant.

However, these entertainments are not as accessible as they used to be, and not cheap to buy the real estate where you can be close to them, or afford them with the crowds competing for them, too. I can't believe I lived in California where you could drive into Yosemite and sleep on the bank of the Merced by the falls overnight in a sleeping bag with the jalopy next to you. That California of dreams and myths is no longer there. People in LA I have talked with live in a world of 'future planning' where shit has to be reserved as much as a year in advance, if you can even make it to the event on the designated reservation through traffic etc.

My wife had some friends, Kommie inheritors who spent some time at a university as profs and administrators, who got their inherited manse on the cliffs overlooking Monterey Bay with lovely evening sunsets when clear. They bemoaned the times when they could go down to the beach for bonfires and picnics at twilight. Because of the meth heads and criminals that come out after dark, beaches and bonfires at that area are no longer allowed by regulation, and the regularly scheduled and increasing regulatory state and local squeezes have crept in every year to make things more restrictive.
85   GNL   2024 Jul 2, 2:48pm  

zzyzzx says

GNL says


It would take 120 years of saving $50,000 per year to reach $6,000,000 (of course that doesn't include investing profits but that total would be after tax however so...). Plus a paid off home and all of the expenses you had to pay over those 120 years. Yeah, almost no one is reaching that goal.


I have to figure everyone here has at least that much.

Don't make me laugh.
86   Ceffer   2024 Jul 2, 3:36pm  

Short reason why the oligarchs and RichFucks push up the beach prices. Go inland a short distance, the air conditioning of the Pacific disappears. There is even a difference between the mile we are from the beach and the beach itself. However, I have even been in Santa Cruz when it was 105 and a sweat bath. However, the ocean breezes come in after 4PM usually and cool things down a lot for the evenings.




87   zzyzzx   2024 Jul 3, 5:04am  

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/dont-least-10-million-dont-201026302.html

'If You Don't Have At Least $10 Million, Don't Retire Early' — Suze Orman Warns It'll Be The 'Biggest Mistake Of Your Lifetime'

I remember when 5M was enough to retire.
88   clambo   2024 Jul 3, 6:29pm  

10 million is excessive. She's full of shit.
How early is early retirement? 40?
I'm retired, and I have observed something interesting.
See how stocks compounded returns looks a bit like an exponential curve?
Your net worth grows gradually, but after 30 years it starts to shoot up.
Now I'm wondering how to spend the money as fast it grows, because I am at the steep end of the curve.
Edit: I just glanced at the Orman article, and she said "5 to 10 million" not 10 million.
$5 million is not unachievable if you make investing a priority over consuming for 33 years or so.
89   NewGuy   2024 Jul 3, 7:31pm  

GNL says

It would take 120 years of saving $50,000 per year to reach $6,000,000 (of course that doesn't include investing profits but that total would be after tax however so...). Plus a paid off home and all of the expenses you had to pay over those 120 years. Yeah, almost no one is reaching that goal.


Google compounding interest.
90   GNL   2024 Jul 3, 7:40pm  

NewGuy says


GNL says


It would take 120 years of saving $50,000 per year to reach $6,000,000 (of course that doesn't include investing profits but that total would be after tax however so...). Plus a paid off home and all of the expenses you had to pay over those 120 years. Yeah, almost no one is reaching that goal.


Google compounding interest.


Of course. I thought it was evident in my comment.

You could reach the $6 million mark by starting with $5,000 and contributing $3,000 per month over 30 years. Yeah, like I said, almost no one is doing/achieving that.

My vehicle of choice for me to reach my financial goals has always been owning a business. Even a small business can generate pretty great returns. I knew a guy who couldn’t read or write. He inherited a struggling printing business. He got to a place where he was paying himself $1 million a year.

An interesting little fact I forgot about is he is jabbed. Had a stroke some time later and Covid fucked his business up and he lost it.
91   SoTex   2024 Jul 3, 8:41pm  

WookieMan says

Just have to be willing to deal with bugs and humidity.


You couldn't keep a boat on that lake. By morning the hull would be covered in algae. That sort of stuff starts happening heading East once you reach Houston.
92   SoTex   2024 Jul 3, 8:42pm  

Ceffer says

Go inland a short distance, the air conditioning of the Pacific disappears.


I've heard a rule of thumb is heading away from the coast in CA the temperature in summer increases by ~1F every mile you go.
93   SoTex   2024 Jul 3, 8:44pm  

GNL says


You could reach the $6 million mark by starting with $5,000 and contributing $3,000 per month over 30 years. Yeah, like I said, almost no one is doing/achieving that.


The only way I ever reach that is if something goes nutz with bitcorn or my real estate assets hyper-inflate. I'm closing in on 3 though over the next 2-3 years if I can avoid being laid off.
94   AmericanKulak   2024 Jul 3, 9:00pm  

WookieMan says


I'm looking at Puerto Rico for retirement down the road.

Why not the Carribean coast of Colombia? Nice deals to be had.

Santa Marta district, you can go from the Tropical Carribean to the Snow-capped Mountains in about 2-3 hours.

Costa Rica is now ridiculous.
95   AD   2024 Jul 3, 9:47pm  

SoTex says

GNL says

You could reach the $6 million mark by starting with $5,000 and contributing $3,000 per month over 30 years. Yeah, like I said, almost no one is doing/achieving that.

The only way I ever reach that is if something goes nutz with bitcorn or my real estate assets hyper-inflate. I'm closing in on 3 though over the next 2-3 years.


At best without too extreme risk is to invest in SPDR Portfolio S&P 500 Growth ETF

That is if you do not want to invest in stocks for an extended period like the Magnificent Seven (Googl, Amzn, Msft, etc)

That should earn you +20% a year for an extended period
96   Patrick   2024 Jul 3, 9:59pm  

socal2 says

I am a transplant from the Midwest


From where in the Midwest?

@socal2
97   GNL   2024 Jul 4, 6:37am  

AD says

SoTex says


GNL says

You could reach the $6 million mark by starting with $5,000 and contributing $3,000 per month over 30 years. Yeah, like I said, almost no one is doing/achieving that.

The only way I ever reach that is if something goes nutz with bitcorn or my real estate assets hyper-inflate. I'm closing in on 3 though over the next 2-3 years.


At best without too extreme risk is to invest in SPDR Portfolio S&P 500 Growth ETF

That is if you do not want to invest in stocks for an extended period like the Magnificent Seven (Googl, Amzn, Msft, etc)

That should earn you +20% a year for an extended period

What? That’s up there with Buffet.

“If you want to be impressed, consider Berkshire Hathaway's compounded annual gain (in per-share market value) from 1965-2018.

Over that time period, Berkshire Hathaway returned 20.5% per year, compared to an annual gain of 9.7% for the S&P 500 (with dividends included).”

https://www.davemanuel.com/2019/09/30/warren-buffett-annual-returns/
98   GNL   2024 Jul 4, 6:41am  

At 20% annual return, you could start with $5,000 and only add $300 per month and get there in 30.
99   socal2   2024 Jul 4, 8:00am  

Patrick says

socal2 says


I am a transplant from the Midwest


From where in the Midwest?

socal2


Chicago and Indianapolis. Moved to California in 1995.

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