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Apple trades at 8.75 times sales. Not income but sales. Sales and income are forecasted to be decreasing. Hewlett Packard trades at about .63 times sales.

However, Apple commands the #1 position in terms of capitalization. It therefore attracts the most of any company from index investors.

You've got about 100 million people that are working, that are putting their money blindly into the stock market through their retirement programs where they work.

You've only got about 2.3 million first time home buyers a year.

Good luck trying to convince either group that what they are spending is waaaaaaay outta line.

Misc says

There's only 3403 stocks in the Wilshire 5000 nowadays.

Yes, but that is the closest to getting enough broad market exposure or diversification as far as investing in the "entire stock market".

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Misc says

You've got about 100 million people that are working, that are putting their money blindly into the stock market through their retirement programs where they work.

You've only got about 2.3 million first time home buyers a year.

I read that contributions to the S&P 500 index fund through 401K and IRA contributions such as the federal government employees contributing every 2 weeks to their Thrift Savings Plan adds volume to the S&P 500 and contributes to demand every 2 weeks.

I'm not sure how many workers out of 100 million contribute regularly such as at least monthly to their 401Ks (and IRAs) and adding that much demand for the S&P 500 stocks.

I know of 1099 contractors who max out their retirement contributions such as Solo 401Ks and Traditional IRAs.

But I see where there is concern the stock market is a ponzi scheme or at risk of wiping people out such as the +53% drop in the S&P 500 around 2001 and 2009. Hopefully those close to retirement only had no more than 30% in stocks.

Where else can you put your 401K money ? Or don't put the money in a 401K ?

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There's about 330 million people in the US with a work participation rate of about 63%. About half have an employee contribution plan at work that they are taking advantage of. That's where I get the ballpark number of 100 million blindly contributing.

Given the market cap of the US stock market and estimated returns, the math just don't pencil out.

If you get selective, there are some stocks worthy of investment, but none that are widely known. Any stock known by the masses is hugely overvalued, especially if it is has a large market cap, as those are driven by inflows into index funds.

What 100 million lemmings cannot be wrong.

Just put in enough to get the match, and do it pre-tax, no Roth 401-k where you don't get the tax benefit. Best you can do with a 401-k type program and stay away from Index funds.

While it is possible for an individual to "save" money, it is impossible for a society to do so.

At the society level, all investment/savings programs Ponzi.

Misc says

Just put in enough to get the match, and do it pre-tax, no Roth 401-k where you don't get the tax benefit. Best you can do with a 401-k type program and stay away from Index funds.

I agree about contributing to traditional 401K (pre-tax). When you retire and withdraw from it, you'll be in a lower tax bracket.

What do you mean stay away from index funds like Wilshire 5000 or S&P 500 ? ? ? ?

Where do you put the money ? If you work for the federal guvmint, the Thrift Savings Plan (i.e., 401K) only has index funds and government bond fund.

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Misc says

While it is possible for an individual to "save" money, it is impossible for a society to do so.

At the society level, all investment/savings programs Ponzi.

Well I understand as us investors such as through government bond funds, depend on future society to be functional enough.

If not, then those bonds will never be paid back, but I guess we will have a lot bigger concerns such as society becoming like a Mad Max movie.

So when you invest like this, its an investment in hope for a better (or tolerable) future.

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AD says

Misc says

Just put in enough to get the match, and do it pre-tax, no Roth 401-k where you don't get the tax benefit. Best you can do with a 401-k type program and stay away from Index funds.

I agree about contributing to traditional 401K (pre-tax). When you retire and withdraw from it, you'll be in a lower tax bracket.

What do you mean stay away from index funds like Wilshire 5000 or S&P 500 ? ? ? ?

Where do you put the money ? If you work for the federal guvmint, the Thrift Savings Plan (i.e., 401K) only has index funds and government bond fund.

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Lots of private companies have been sold on the Index fund route a, as well. By at least getting the match and going pre-tax, you lose less value over the long term. Mathematically, the vast majority of people must lose value on their investments. The idea is to lose as little as possible.

Anyone here buying Tbills through Treasury Direct?

HeadSet says

Anyone here buying Tbills through Treasury Direct?

I used to but now the return pretty meh.

Misc says

Lots of private companies have been sold on the Index fund route a, as well. By at least getting the match and going pre-tax, you lose less value over the long term. Mathematically, the vast majority of people must lose value on their investments. The idea is to lose as little as possible.

I never lost money on my S&P 500 Fund as I've sold shares that I owned for at least 7 years

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