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Patrick says

The article goes on about how incredibly low-trust India is as a society.

True? Any people from India want to opine on this?

Based on my dealings with family, It is both "low trust" and "high trust" society at the same time.

Low trust : Government and something common as the laws are lax and people want to steal as much as possible. Compare to US it is total dump.

High trust: Among smaller groups there is honor system and high trust. "Save the face" might not be as strong in east Asians like china but still very strong. Social boycott is like death sentence.. so it does create high trust group with enough channels to deal with low trust general environment. Casual dealings almost non-existent in US and every little thing involves Lawyers and government. So India wins handily here.

This is mostly correct.
Since “independence”, communists took over the country and implemented freebies to “poor” in education and government jobs. Special rights and privileges given to “minorities” who vote almost 100% to the same communist parties. All communist parties are puppets of the west, china, fake Stan.

Judiciary and police are totally corrupt.
Imagine about 85% cases are related to property crimes. Cases typically take about 1 to 6 decades. Cases get closed because most of the time one side gives up after threats, getting killed etc.
Land records from the government are really a big joke. Any one can create those documents and file a case against the actual owner to kick them out.

For the last 20 years right leaning government get elected and showing positive results in economy and improving law and order. But they have limited room to play as they are labeled with “Hindu” by media to end the government and bring back indirectly ruling opposition minority communist parties in to power.
“Minorities” are growing increasingly who associate with fake Stan than India. Christian missionaries are trying their best to create their own blocks and trying to separate on border states.
I don’t know much but there got be something common to correlate and bind people together to be productive. Without that, things would fall apart.

People in America don't care what caste you're from or what color is you skin. That kills Liberals.

Tenpoundbass says

People in America don't care what caste you're from or what color is you skin. That kills Liberals.

You are not reading comments from Andrew Torba then.
Conservative by nature tries to conserve and trad in nature.

One Indian guy I know told me that property rights are very uncertain in India, and that if the right person gets bribed, the title to your land gets taken away.

If you don't like it, you might get killed for objecting. I was pretty shocked.

Patrick says

One Indian guy I know told me that property rights are very uncertain in India, and that if the right person gets bribed, the title to your land gets taken away.

If you don't like it, you might get killed for objecting. I was pretty shocked.

It happens, But not very common as per people I know.
There has to be some minor dispute or you have abandoned it for long time.

India is as bad as this shocking video shows:
https://x.com/newstrackdaily/status/1872865594548326651

Patrick says

One Indian guy I know told me that property rights are very uncertain in India, and that if the right person gets bribed, the title to your land gets taken away.

If you don't like it, you might get killed for objecting. I was pretty shocked.

If the land value is getting high, one should look for political connection with bribes or sell often at very low price to them.
Otherwise one would get killed and land/property get occupied. Very likely gov employees, judges and police get their cut on the way.
I say it with experience of our family and quite a few we know, unfortunately. It’s quite common in cities particularly where there are more “minorities” live.
Remember most communist politician give everything "free" to "poor" people who love them!

Patrick says

One Indian guy I know told me that property rights are very uncertain in India, and that if the right person gets bribed, the title to your land gets taken away

Philippines is the same way.

I heard similar stories from a coworker from Vietnam. If the value goes up significantly higher, “gov” gets it in major cities.

Patrick says

The article goes on about how incredibly low-trust India is as a society.

True? Any people from India want to opine on this?

Hi Patrick,

I will give it a shot. But first a little background, please bear with me.

I was born and brought up in Bengaluru (aka Bangalore), like lots of people during the 90s, after graduating with Bachelors in engg and working for a couple of years came to US on a student visa and finished my MS@ArizonaState. Worked in Intel for a decade at Intel in Chandler, AZ. For various reasons moved back to my home town in 2006 and have been here since then. CoFounded a company (amongst other investors, Chamath P was also an investor) and successfully exited in 2020. Now I am the CEO and founder of Chara (chara.co.in), building RareEarth free motors and controllers for traction and various other applications. REs are critical minerals, PRC controls about 90% of the supply chain, our work has attracted lots of attention including the venture arm of the famous CIA !

I have been a lurker here for more than a decade, have exchanged messages with Patrick a couple of times. Politically I am right wing and would still like to keep in touch with the happenings in US for old times sake and for the simple reason that whatever US does has an effect on the rest of the world. And I severely doubt the narrative of the MSM

The video and the article that follows is extremely biased and simply wrong. This is somewhat similar to the WA messages we get about SF (crime, tent cities, drugs et al) or about the gun culture, the uninitiated might think this is how the whole US is. BTW I really feel sorry about the state of SF I was there in the summer of last year and the saw a fine city go to waste, sorry I digress.

India has 101 problems but is now a vibrant, developing economy. IMO this is the land of opportunities. Investors are pouring in money, because this is the last single largest market remaining in the world today that can be tapped into.

Compared to US this is a low trust society for a variety of historical reasons, but technology is solving many of them.

Having lived in both sides of the planet, the biggest problem that still troubles me are the following, in that order.

1. Governance is poor (courts are slow, bureaucracy is inefficient and corrupt and enforcement is lax)
2. Too much diversity (it is my opinion that diversity introduces friction when one trying to build a business, a community or a country)
3. Too many people (again my opinion, some see this as a huge advantage, could be true)
4. Infra needs lots of improvement
5. It is somewhat a feudalistic society (the old vestiges of class and hierarchy still permeates but is rapidly disappearing)
6. Air quality is bad in the cities (this will take a decade or so to fix I think)

Superficially that hits visitors is the chaos of traffic and trash thrown around.

On the plus side, the economy is growing at a blistering pace, lots of opportunities. And things are improving a lot. During the 80s and 90s the difference between India and USofA was stark, almost black and white. Now it is not, it is shades of gray. I say this after talking to recent college grads, they no longer see the west as the only way for career growth and prosperity, they now want to stay back in India and do something here (this probably because the new administration in the last 12 years has rekindled the animal-instincts/pride/nationalism and has shown real progress which we can all see).

And the food is simply amazing, especially the old restaurants. (Vidyarthi Bhavan, CTR, MLTR et al if you are from Bengaluru). And I love the music and the dance concerts and the travel to visit old monuments, there are so many of them, most of them more than 1000 years old.

I have lots of friends who have moved back (some of them even born in the US and a few Caucasian) and have decided to stay back for good. I do visit US roughly once a year mostly on work and I am more amazed now than before. Unfortunately I also see the degradation in some aspects and worry about the rise of China. I really hope the new administration takes some drastic steps in fixing some of the fundamental issues.

Cheers,
-Bhaktha

PS : I really like the format, the community and the "management" of Patrick in this forum, would love to do this here when I retire (a few years away ...)

I am OK with Hindus @bhaktha who actually go back to India and try to fix that 💩 rather than living in 🇺🇸 and calling “ 🇮🇳 is great”

I have seen in another "developing country" over the years improvements in technology, infrastructure, etc. but not much in the average person's attitudes nor morals.

I have never visited India nor will I ever, but I recently came to the conclusion that third world countries are different because their people think differently.

Visit Canada England, France, Switzerland, Japan and then visit Mexico to see what I mean.

My impression of India is it's an over-populated hell-hole and has been for centuries probably.

Being desperately poor leads to desperate, uncooperative, dishonest, sometimes criminal behavior; this is probably true in all countries with a large poor population, and a history of poverty by most.

Poor people behave nobly only in novels or the movies; my dealings with poor showed me they generally are the opposite.

After watching the movie Slumdog Millionaire I had even less desire to visit India.

Almost all countries colonized and then left after it's wealth stolen are poor.

Historically 500 years n before, india and china were well off. British took all industry from india n moved it to Britain.

It was in control of communist n muslims till last 10 years.

It has now highest length of roads in the world.
5 countries to space.
It is turning similar to west , tons of mcdonalds, subways, burgers king, dominoes ... Basically u have way more food options and cleaner option than ever.

Islam is destroying it from within. Extreme diversity has caused too many issues. Seculars n previous government who ruled india for 70 years kept them poor. Why the fuck mostly hindu country had muslim education minister for 50 years.

It has china n pakistan attacking it all the time to do land grab. If Tibet wasn't part of china , how can anything beyond it, be part of china. But they keep stealing land. Pakistan was US's bitch n kept attaking india with terrorists. Osama bin la din was found in pakistan, so basically US has raised lot of snakes, but now they are coming after US after pakistan became china's bitch.

For traveller's it's safe if you stay in good hotel, n visit north Golden triangle. Taj mahal, delhi, n forts of Rajasthan n gujarat.

Also avoid muslim areas.

Rape happens but per capita it's lower than most countries
https://www.tbsnews.net/world/countries-highest-rape-incidents-144499.

DOGEWontAmountToShit says

This electrified train is indeed technologically advanced and eco-friendly.

“Historically 500 years n before, india and china were well off. British took all industry from india n moved it to Britain.”

You mean, England automated textile production during the Industrial Revolution and could produce clothing more cheaply than India. “Took all the industry.” That’s what happened to the American manufacturing base the last 25 years (treasonous Kissinger et al), but the US base had more to export than hand looming and subsistence farming.

If they could produce cheap in England, pretty sure they can produce it even cheaper in india.

It's multi step process, de industrialize, steal gold n diamonds , tax local manufacturing, buy up food and grains at cheap prices to starve n kill locals.

If you get chance check out British museums in London, also known as museum of theft. Besides some diamonds n gold n weapons displayed, many more were stolen. Look up how Yale university creator got its money.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/2/how-british-colonial-policy-killed-100-million-indians

Point being, people make fun of poverty, but forget the assholes who were evil n immoral and created poverty.

goofus says

“Historically 500 years n before, india and china were well off. British took all industry from india n moved it to Britain.”

Who wrote that?

DOGEWontAmountToShit says

goofus says

“Historically 500 years n before, india and china were well off. British took all industry from india n moved it to Britain.”

Who wrote that?

KgK post 18. Thinking further, the comment is more ridiculous than it seems. India was under the heel of Muslim Mughals until England broke their hold. Millions of Hindus and Sikhs killed by Mughals, not exactly a golden age.

KgK one says

If they could produce cheap in England, pretty sure they can produce it even cheaper in india.

It's multi step process, de industrialize, steal gold n diamonds , tax local manufacturing, buy up food and grains at cheap prices to starve n kill locals.

If you get chance check out British museums in London, also known as museum of theft. Besides some diamonds n gold n weapons displayed, many more were stolen. Look up how Yale university creator got its money.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/2/how-british-colonial-policy-killed-100-million-indians

Point being, people make fun of poverty, but forget the assholes who were evil n immoral and created poverty.

England could produce textiles cheaply because they understood thermodynamics and how to harness steam power. India was at Bronze Age levels of technology, comparatively. There was nothing to “de-industrialize” in India, just raw materials to export.

Britain did introduce technology to India, including farming methods that enabled the population boom. Also trains, roads, legal systems, schooling, hospitals, and most everything else. Apologies to the nationalist partisans.

Edited: Admittedly the East India Company was more or less a piracy organization. Funded by the crown, then run by robber barons. My impression is that India came out ahead (far ahead) of where it had been only after the British Raj was established. EIC didn’t do much positive for India, but developments under the Raj did.

goofus says

KgK post 18. Thinking further, the comment is more ridiculous than it seems. India was under the heel of Muslim Mughals until England broke their hold. Millions of Hindus and Sikhs killed by Mughals, not exactly a golden age.

Oh, yeah. One of the few ppl I have on ignore.

One has to post some patently bullshitty stuff to get on my ignore list.

Not even socal2 is on it.

DOGEWontAmountToShit says

goofus says

KgK post 18. Thinking further, the comment is more ridiculous than it seems. India was under the heel of Muslim Mughals until England broke their hold. Millions of Hindus and Sikhs killed by Mughals, not exactly a golden age.

Oh, yeah. One of the few ppl I have on ignore.

One has to post some patently bullshitty stuff to get on my ignore list.

Not even socal2 is on it.

Ha, I think I only have Apocalypse Fuck on ignore. Post-Trump apocalypse, he really went off the rails.

🇮🇳 sucked and sucks now.
Keep bashing Hindus and watch “Dennis the menace” to learn why Hindus suck so much.

https://x.com/DennisxToxic

https://barsoom.substack.com/p/the-great-christmas-h1b-war-of-2024

It really would have been a very good time for them to be quiet. Unfortunately, the elite human capitalists could not help themselves, because they come from a culture in which the mental habits inculcated by thousands of years inside a brutal caste system (what was that about racism?) force everyone into the role of either abused or abuser. One is either in an inferior position, in which case one is expected to be obsequious, servile, slavish, bootlicking, and sycophantic; or one is in a superior position, in which case one must be tyrannical, sadistic, and rapacious. There is no in between. If in an inferior position, one can only survive the impositions of the superior by being crafty, by lying, by being lazy – doing as little as one can get away with, exaggerating what one has done, obeying instructions to their strict letter while ignoring their spirit, and never, ever taking initiative. If in a superior position, one knows implicitly that all of one’s inferiors are backstabbing, shiftless, deceitful little wretches, and treats them accordingly. That may have sounded harsh to you. If so, read this from Jayant Bhandari, an Indian who’s lived in the West for some time: It’s Worse Than You Think. All of the above is lifted straight from his description and diagnosis. If anything, I toned it down.

Outsourcing, DEI preferences, immigrant tax breaks, ethnic hiring mafias, and all the rest of the little advantages that have enabled Indians to gain a foothold in Western countries have given them their first taste of power and success in several centuries, and the few drops of this sweet, intoxicating nectar that they have been allowed have apparently sufficed, sometime in the last few years, to flip the switch in the collective brain of Bharat vis a vis its relationship with the West from ‘abused’ to ‘abuser’. As a result they have been rampaging across the Internet, blithely unconcerned by the fatal damage their horrifying behaviour is doing to both their national brand, and to the discursive influence of the only people who are keeping the migration pipeline open.

This made the debate even more rancorous, widening its scope from the conflict between private economic interests and the dignity of the nation’s workers, to include questions about the desirability of demographic change and the cultural change that invariably follows. Does America want to become more like India? Is that in anyone’s best interests? Is India anyone’s idea of an improvement over, well, anywhere?

It’s hard to imagine a more perfect clusterfuck.