patrick.net

GNL says

Are you saying it is bad engineering? I posit that no matter how you engineer a Tesla, the battery will always be susceptible to fires.

I wouldn't say it's bad engineering, I'm saying that it's an overall bad concept. It's not the design that is flawed, they have probably made it as safe as it's possible to make. It's a bad product, and I don't think any amount of engineering will make it safe.

But you can argue that a gasoline car is dangerous as well, that's just a bunch of flammable liquid that can easily become explosive. I just think batteries are worse.

Where's @Eman and @socal2? Aren't they supposed to be hijacking threads like this and turning them into Tesla Fluffer Porn?

GNL says

RWSGFY says

"Akshually", there was a number of recalls for ICE cars spontaneously combusting while parked. Ford, BMW and KIA come to mind. Much easier to put out though.

PS. Most recent covfefe: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/park-recalled-hyundai-kia-vehicles-outside-fire-risk-a1164933239/

While this is true, it is not because of a known limitation. Instead, it is because of bad engineering. Tesla battery fires aren't because of bad engineering.

Why? Samsung phone battery fires were definitely because of bad engineering. Same for Li batteries igniting on planes - remember these? Both apparently not an issue anymore. Same for Tesla: if they are self-combusting it means some re-engineering is in order.

It isn't just EVs ...

Green Globalist Disaster: E-Bikes Caused Record Fires, Injuries, and Deaths Last Year In NYC

(Zero Hedge)—Electric bicycles were responsible for a record number of fires, injuries and deaths in New York City last year.

In total, e-bikes caused 267 fires, causing 18 deaths and 150 injuries in the city, the New York Fire Department (FDNY) told Fox News, which notes that the figures represent the highest levels of each statistic – with deaths jumping 200% and fires increasing 21% over last year.

A couple of very interesting videos:
https://conservativeplaybook.com/green-globalist-disaster-e-bikes-caused-record-fires-injuries-and-deaths-last-year-in-nyc/

Eman says

Everybody = myself included. I accept what the government offers to everyone. I didn’t take anything from anyone illegitimately.

The government is illegitimate. Don't you realize that? We don't have border controls, our current jerk off of a president wasn't elected, we have political prisoners, we don't have free speech, our government directly censors individuals, and our military is completely occupied in going to wars that have nothing to do with this country as our president and many members of congress openly engage in accepting bribes and doing insider stock trading.

That's our government.

If solar panels actually produced cheaper electricity, and they don't in many cases, just be installing solar your electric bill would go down. It doesn't. This is another boondoogle program that harms EVERYBODY. The energy consumption in producing your solar panels very likely exceeds the amount of energy you'll ever recover from using them. That make any sense to you?

They're basically intermittent batteries that never get more energy out of them than is put into making them. Who would do this?

In time we might get viable solutions, but there's no sense installing nonviable ones.

Eman says

You’re a whiner. I won’t waste my time with you.

I'm an engineer, I use my brain. You don't. MOST people don't. Most engineers don't. I'm fucking tired of it. "Duuuur, it advantages me because I offload the cost using a corrupt stupid government to do it!" You don't even recognize that you MIGHT be scum.

All these green-energy initiatives just consume MORE energy. People do the analysis and explain it, it's not part of the latest government scam so it's never in your stupid "news".

Do you think they are JUST finding out that solar electric doesn't make sense? Solar ALMOST does - if you take good care of it and maintain it, you can actually walk out ahead, but you have also be lucky, no breakage, have to remove dust, etc. Solar is the closest thing we've got, wind is a complete wash, total waste of money. It's engineered stupidity. There's just SO MANY SCAMS, and we have real problems to work on.

RayAmerica says

It isn't just EVs ...

Green Globalist Disaster: E-Bikes Caused Record Fires, Injuries, and Deaths Last Year In NYC

(Zero Hedge)—Electric bicycles were responsible for a record number of fires, injuries and deaths in New York City last year.

In total, e-bikes caused 267 fires, causing 18 deaths and 150 injuries in the city, the New York Fire Department (FDNY) told Fox News, which notes that the figures represent the highest levels of each statistic – with deaths jumping 200% and fires increasing 21% over last year.

A couple of very interesting videos:
https://conservativeplaybook.com/green-globalist-disaster-e-bikes-caused-record-fires-injuries-and-deaths-last-year-in-nyc/

Right. Most of these are made in Chyna literally in sheds to a lowesr price point possible. Engineering? What engineering? And good luck finding the manufacturer and holding it accountable.

With cars the game is completely different and in the US NTHSA will be breathing down your neck the very next day your jalopies start self-combusting. It's "make your shit not self-immolate or die" kinda situation.

🤷‍♂️

https://x.com/tescalendar1/status/1749050553160577071?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

RWSGFY says

Why? Samsung phone battery fires were definitely because of bad engineering. Same for Li batteries igniting on planes - remember these? Both apparently not an issue anymore. Same for Tesla: if they are self-combusting it means some re-engineering is in order.

Maybe because there is a limitation?

RWSGFY says

With cars the game is completely different and in the US NTHSA will be breathing down your neck the very next day your jalopies start self-combusting.

I'd agree, but that 1 in 100,000 chance is not worth it. You can't put those fires out. You're generally trying to save your home at that point and the car is for sure totaled. Hopefully your life and family isn't.

Spec/stock ICE cars will not start on fire sitting in the garage. EV's cannot make this claim. I have no interest in potentially killing my family over an overpriced car that's fun to drive. Oh and while I was in FL and the Bahamas last week the Teslas simply didn't work. Couldn't charge in Chicago. 50% of the country gets freezing temps in the winter consistently. The worst possible time to not have a functioning car. Count me out.

Eman says

🤷‍♂️

https://x.com/tescalendar1/status/1749050553160577071?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

Dude, did you click on the link? There's nothing there. On a website owned by the owner of Tesla. Linked to a congressional committee that's run by Dem Senators that tout this shit.

Let us know how those electric trains are going. The electric shipping container ships. Those electric semis that I've seen zero of. If it was more efficient these would be the industries making the changes first. They're not. Why is that? Golf courses are more advanced than trillions of dollars in shipping. Good luck even owning a Tesla without oil. It couldn't be built. So yeah it's subsidized for good reason.

Just admit you like to own an expensive car that doesn't save you money. It simply doesn't. You've admittedly stated you're over $100k in to fund a car basically. This isn't jealousy. It's pointing out stupidity. I don't care if you make $10M a year, it's a stupid purchase. Maybe make memories and not buy stupid shit because you could stroke out tomorrow and was the car worth it? Nope. Your priorities are a joke my friend.

Your true colors are being shown so you post "texts" "helping" friends out on million dollar deals. I'm calling bull shit dude. You don't get markets or how things are actually made by posting this meme. Enjoy the overpriced golf cart. You're out of your element.

Eman says

🤷‍♂️

https://x.com/tescalendar1/status/1749050553160577071?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

A trillion? I'm very doubtful of that. I think what they are doing is including the ENTIRE US military budget in that calculation.

There should be no subsidies whatsoever. Eliminate them, and we will end up with the best solution if we allow the market to decide.

WookieMan says

RWSGFY says

With cars the game is completely different and in the US NTHSA will be breathing down your neck the very next day your jalopies start self-combusting.

I'd agree, but that 1 in 100,000 chance is not worth it. You can't put those fires out. You're generally trying to save your home at that point and the car is for sure totaled. Hopefully your life and family isn't.

Spec/stock ICE cars will not start on fire sitting in the garage. EV's cannot make this claim.

I literally posted a link on a recall for self-combusting ICE cars with a recommendation to not park in a garage until modified by dealer.

Yes, they are harder to put out. No, they are not supposed to self-ignite if engineered properly. No differenf from phones or laptops or batteries on planes.

"I Rented a Tesla for a 1,600-Mile Road Trip. I’ll Think Twice Next Time."

https://apple.news/AoJQFQaBXQ6K7K3W3BBdE0w

RWSGFY says

I literally posted a link on a recall for self-combusting ICE cars with a recommendation to not park in a garage until modified by dealer.

Yes, they are harder to put out. No, they are not supposed to self-ignite if engineered properly. No differenf from phones or laptops or batteries on planes.

Why can't the manufactuerers be sued into oblivion?

GNL says

RWSGFY says

I literally posted a link on a recall for self-combusting ICE cars with a recommendation to not park in a garage until modified by dealer.

Yes, they are harder to put out. No, they are not supposed to self-ignite if engineered properly. No differenf from phones or laptops or batteries on planes.

Why can't the manufactuerers be sued into oblivion?

Not enough failures for that, apparently.

RWSGFY says

Akshually

Did you attend K-12 in Oaktown?

RWSGFY says

No, they are not supposed to self-ignite if engineered properly. No differenf from phones or laptops or batteries on planes.

Not quite the same from a purely engineering perspective: if each lithium battery has a 1 in a million chance of shorting out in a month, a laptop with 4 lithium cells would have only 1 in 250k chance . . . whereas an EV with 5000 cells would have 0.999999^5000 = 0.995 safety, or 1 in 200 chance of starting a fire (thermo run-away event), a ship transporting 100 EV's like that mixed in its cargo hold of thousands of cars would have only 60% chance of crossing the Atlantic or the Pacific (surviving one month at sea). The nature of the thermo run-away fire makes the system inherently unsafe when the large numbers pile up.

The above illustration only took into account risk associated with each lithium cell, not even taking into account the additional risks of each soldering point connecting lithium cells to each other or soldering debris left in the battery aggregate packs or cars' battery storage boxes.

Making them from thousands of cells is an engineering choice. It's not set in stone that it has to be done this way.

RWSGFY says

Not enough failures for that, apparently.

yeah good point as far as class action lawsuit , i was thinking of ralph nader's book unsafe at any speed ... need him or his successors (if there are any) to write a book about EV's

problem is any ralph nader successor likely would be progressive and ideologically biased (and/or bought off) to not criticize EV's unless it is just to sabotage elon musk

.

ad says

problem is any ralph nader successor likely would be progressive and ideologically biased (and/or bought off) to not criticize EV's unless it is just to sabotage elon musk

My dislike for EV's is people that say they're cheaper. I have no issue with Musk outside of being a massive government grifter in multiple industries. He wouldn't be able to do what he does without credits on products and literal cash from the government. He seems like a fun dude you could be friends with.

Depending on the model of Tesla you can get a similar sized car (or bigger) for $20-50k less. Say you finance it for 4 years or pay cash. In the financed scenario that's $5k/yr-$12.5k/yr on the high end instead of getting a hybrid. I drive a full ICE V-8 Nissan Armada. I spend maybe $3-4k on gas and it cost less than a Tesla. Has more utility and space. I know there will be a gas station, so no need to search for chargers. No need to worry about cold.

Now factor in something like a RAV-4 hybrid and my daily commute would be $0 in gas. You can get slightly used ones for $30k. I wouldn't qualify for the $7,500 tax credit due to income so full sticker price. Tesla mini "SUV" models are smaller and substantially more expensive.

There's not anything in this comment that can be denied. It's actual fact that Tesla owners just wanted a fun car to drive. And that's okay. I don't care, but I do care that the owners lie about the costs. It's simply not true. It will not be cheaper than a full ICE vehicle or hybrid. Never has. Gas savings are minimal and that's just for now.

For where a Tesla is best operated, it makes no sense to spend $20k+ versus comparable cars. Hell they don't even hold a charge in half the country this time of year. It's fun to drive and status. Plain and simple. It's not an argument. Just would appreciate owners would stop lying and just own up to their insecurities.

RWSGFY says

"I Rented a Tesla for a 1,600-Mile Road Trip. I’ll Think Twice Next Time."

lol. You can't go full retard.

original link

Extra edit: This is just a rental. This guy spells it out almost exactly as imagined IMHO. And that doesn't include the price of the car if it was purchased and not a rental. They're not cheaper.

This is why I’m an investor and you’re not Wookie. I understand numbers. You buy used cars, and think like a W2 person. I think like a business person. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again. We’re at 2 different points in our lives.

With respect to solar/electricity, there are 2 options: 1) pay the utility company, or pay the bank to finance the solar system. No money out of pocket. The solar system can pay for itself in 6 years, and the remaining 19+ years of electricity is free. Which one makes more financial sense? I’ll let the readers decide.

Eman says

This is why I’m an investor and you’re not Wookie. I understand numbers. You buy used cars, and think like a W2 person. I think like a business person. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again. We’re at 2 different points in our lives.

You don't think like a business person though. You buy a big vehicle and get the better tax incentive and write the gas off and it's cheaper than a Tesla and has more function. Again, you wanted a fun to drive car and status. There's nothing more to this. If you're truly a business owner and investor you would have taken advantage of this. You didn't.

I buy used cars because they're cheaper and I'm not an idiot. I don't need a fancy or fast car. There's literally no reason for it besides ego. Nothing else. I'll say it again and again and again. It's a fun car to drive. It's stupid to own one. I guess I like to work with my hands and not drive a baby car around. I need to tow stuff. Tesla's wouldn't even charge last week in Chicago. You got yourself a $70k paperweight.

Eman says

With respect to solar/electricity, there are 2 options: 1) pay the utility company, or pay the bank to finance the solar system. No money out of pocket. The solar system can pay for itself in 6 years, and the remaining 19+ years of electricity is free. Which one makes more financial sense? I’ll let the readers decide.

19 years, lol. Rarely does anyone live in a home that long. You just covered someone else's electric bill. Even if you did the next Tesla will be $100k and the next $150k by then. You literally don't have any savings dude. You paid for a car on a monthly basis for solar on your roof, financed to charge your expensive car... Dude, you're not making any sense.

You still haven't factored in the charges that are coming. It will be even more expensive. Especially in CA. Rising state income taxes, more EV's on the road and there will be a EVT (electric vehicle tax). Your utility is going to charge you more. For the 40th time or whatever. You bought a car that is fun to drive and you like it. It's not cheaper. It's not green. Just say that. You're trying to justify something that isn't true by any data readily available.

WookieMan says

I understand numbers.

Hahaha

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says

I understand numbers.

Hahaha

misquote? I mostly understand numbers but I know I ain't perfect. I know I'm right on Tesla's being over priced and takes years to even out gas costs though. And if you run a business a big ICE car will do you better.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. We don’t see eye to eye on this issue.

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.

By the way, Tesla is not a status. They’re everywhere in the Bay Area unlike where you live. Just ask the Bay Areans here

“19 years”

It’s more often than you think. Ask all homeowners on Patnet how long have they been in their house?

We might be the exception, but I’ve been in our house for over 20 years. My older sister has been in hers for 27 years. Younger brothers 13-14 years. Youngest sister is 5+ years. She’ll likely keep it as a rental when she upgrades in the coming years. Low property tax basis, low fixed mortgage rate so why not. I bought this place 12 years ago during the downturn and she “inherited” the low basis.

Wife’s siblings, her youngest brother last move was 9 years ago. All others have been in theirs for 14-25 years.

Wookie is most certainly correct about average number of years between moves. This is a fact.

Eman says

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.

The Tesla Model Y (even without incentives or anticipated gas savings) was simply cheaper from the start (and much faster and more fun to drive) than all of the other luxury models I was looking buy. Simple as that. I make enough money and drive enough that I am not settling for a Toyota Camry or another Ford Explorer.

Wookieman at least claims to have driven in a Tesla. Apparently his frequent long road trips and hauling requirements make it a no go for him.

Putin Porn Boy just responds with his typical autistic screechy bot type replies thinking he is clever - instead of sounding retarded..

WookieMan says

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says

I understand numbers.

Hahaha

misquote? I mostly understand numbers but I know I ain't perfect. I know I'm right on Tesla's being over priced and takes years to even out gas costs though. And if you run a business a big ICE car will do you better.

Have you seen the prices of comparable ICE cars these days? Price of Tesla's (without incentives) is nearly on par with equivalent ICE vehicles. If you are only in a market for a basic 4 cylinder Toyota Camry to get you around, Tesla would still be a luxury.

EV prices (at least Teslas) will continue to drop as Tesla continues to revolutionize manufacturing and battery production. Tesla has already dramatically reduced the cost of batteries and have been creating a price war in the last 6 months that is killing the other OEMs.

Guarantee you that Tesla will be able to manage their COGS a fuck-ton better than the other OEM's are going to manage their Union labor and pension costs they just dramatically jacked up last year.


https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-ev-market-ice-price-parity-2023/

socal2 says

Have you seen the prices of comparable ICE cars these days? Price of Tesla's (without incentives) is nearly on par with equivalent ICE vehicles.

So? The COST of them is several times over.

GNL says

Wookie is most certainly correct about average number of years between moves. This is a fact.

I know the average is 7 years, but it’s not common in my sphere of friends and family. We’re likely the exceptions. Maybe different cultures handle/view housing differently. Highly likely I’ll die in this house.

Ask all the people who went from an ICE car to EV. Who will go back to ICE and who will never go back. People vote with their checkbook. Let the numbers do the talking.

We live in the most innovative region of the world. I don’t blame others for their views and thinking. They don’t know what they don’t know.

Eman says

Ask all the people who went from an ICE car to EV. Who will go back to ICE and who will never go back. People vote with their checkbook. Let the numbers do the talking.

So what?

Doesn't change reality.

UkraineIsFucked says

So? The COST of them is several times over.

No not at all.

Prices are about the same now between Tesla and comparable ICE cars.

But Tesla makes 4X the profit margin (without incentives) than the other automakers making ICE cars.

How does that work unless Tesla has brought down Costs?

socal2 says

No not at all.

Prices are about the same now between Tesla and comparable ICE cars.

But Tesla makes 4X the profit margin (without incentives) than the other automakers making ICE cars.

How does that work unless Tesla has brought down Costs?

You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.

UkraineIsFucked says

You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.

socal2 says

UkraineIsFucked says

You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.

That's right. It's all you post. And now Eman has hitched his wagon to it. Amazing.