patrick.net

GNL says

Patrick says

I'll eat my foot if that dark blue Ford gets 20mpg.

+1

Maybe going down a stretch of extremely flat freeway at 55 mpg. MAYBE. But realistically it should be something like a typical gas truck of that size (and on that kind of tires): 13-14 mpg in mixed driving.

Funny thing: he didn't have to exaggerate to make his point - it still true even at 14 mpg.

Most Teslas in California are running on natural gas burned at a power station somewhere.
In Northern California it's in Moss Landing.

Instead of pushing for battery cars, they should have encouraged natural gas cars.
The C02 coming out the back of a car can be recycled by the plants, trees, and phytoplankton on earth.
The batteriers of a Tesla can be recycled where and how? They're electronic toxic waste.

I would buy an electric car someday when I am really a geezer who won't drive long distances, nor about Baja back roads, etc.

clambo says

Most Teslas in California are running on natural gas burned at a power station somewhere.
In Northern California it's in Moss Landing.

Instead of pushing for battery cars, they should have encouraged natural gas cars.
The C02 coming out the back of a car can be recycled by the plants, trees, and phytoplankton on earth.
The batteriers of a Tesla can be recycled where and how? They're electronic toxic waste.

I would buy an electric car someday when I am really a geezer who won't drive long distances, nor about Baja back roads, etc.

1) Natural Gas also requires processing, just like electricity.
2) Other stuff besides CO2 comes out of the exhaust of cars. One of the reasons you can't run your car with the garage door closed, as I can with my Tesla - such as when I want to cool the cabin before I drive. (Oh yes, I'm so wasteful!!)
3. Tesla Batteries are fully recyclable. This is already happening: https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling
4. The Cybertruck can handle those back roads. But it must be a terrible Truck, there are only 1.5 million+ reservations already.

Bottom line, I pay about 1/3 the price of gas to run my Tesla. No Oil changes, no Engine maintenance (Fuel Filters, EGR valves, Timing Chains, Exhaust, Transmissions, etc.) No fluid filler caps under the hood at all except windshield washer goop. Very few brake pads or brake fluid replacements - regen braking.

Just take a test drive. You'll be impressed.

But don't you feel a bit worried that it's reporting everywhere you drive and could be commandeered to lock the doors and take you where you might not want to go?

Those parts creep me out.

Rocketjoe, we know you can't breathe car exhaust.
You also can't eat a lithium battery.
So what if Teslas are nice cars; nobody buys them, maybe they can't afford the payments.

The idea of electric motor drive instead of complex engines and transmissions is good. The Chevy Volt had electric drive and the small engine recharged the batteries.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars will replace battery cars someday.

Yeah, I can only afford it because I invested in Tesla just before covid. Got lucky, went 5x, sold 80%, enough to afford the Tesla.
But I see a TON of new, veerrrry expensive-looking Trucks on the road. People just like trucks. I get it. It's a choice.

Yep, Hydrogen fuel cells are just around the corner - like Fusion Power. Hell, NASA & JPL have been working fuel cell tech for 50 years. If it was commercially viable, it would have been prime time long ago.

rocketjoe79 says

1) Natural Gas also requires processing, just like electricity.

Oil and gas come from the ground. Where does the electricity charging your car come from, lightning?

rocketjoe79 says

3. Tesla Batteries are fully recyclable.

So you're ok with blood minerals?
https://stopthesethings.com/2022/08/12/ethical-vacuum-re-batteries-all-electric-vehicles-drive-demand-for-blood-minerals/

rocketjoe79 says

Bottom line, I pay about 1/3 the price of gas to run my Tesla. No Oil changes, no Engine maintenance (Fuel Filters, EGR valves, Timing Chains, Exhaust, Transmissions, etc.) No fluid filler caps under the hood at all except windshield washer goop. Very few brake pads or brake fluid replacements - regen braking.

How much electricity do you pay? How much does a chip replacement cost, assuming there are chips available? This entire line of thinking makes no sense. We are SW people here. And as SW people we know the commonality in all SW is bugs. More SW is not a selling point for me.

My wife had an Altima for a short time. Lots more of the computer parts that you mentioned, and broke down all the time. And the failure was always related to those chips or electrical parts. Electrical problems in general are a pain in the ass. Even in my older cars, when I've had those issues in the past, I usually have to go to an electrical shop, and my regular mechanic at the time was a very seasoned veteran. Repairs for older cars are easier because parts are plentiful, and it's all physical mechanics. But how many people know how to diagnose Tesla logs, and replace chips? Can you even do it yourself, or does Tesla have it all locked down?

And I haven't even touched the smart grid control, remote shut-off, and other privacy issues of your vehicle, which are MASSIVE.

rocketjoe79 says

If it was commercially viable, it would have been prime time long ago.

Definitely not. See the two people recently killed who were working on alternative vehicles. Recently, because if you go back far enough, you can find cars that run on compressed air, and the inventor was either killed, or bought out, and the invention never saw the light of day.

I find all the talk about spark
plugs this and timing chains that highly exaggerated. One of my jalopies has just crossed the 250,000 mark and I've changed spark plugs in it exactly 2 times so far. Took me about 15 minutes every time. The timing chain has NO service interval stated anywhere in the factory service manual. Air filter? Every 30K miles which roughly translates into 5 years with my current driving pattern. And takes less than 5 min to swap. I do remember swapping a camshaft position sensor 6-7 years ago, so yeah, these sensors are horrible pain and expense (paid $20 for the set of 3 and the other two are still waiting their turn). :)

PS. I did test-drive a base Model 3 and found the experience practically identical to the sedan I have: size, acceleration, handling.... Turns out even auto rag numbers for 0-60 match down to the first decimal. So I decided that I'm not missing out for now. Will revisit when the wheels fall off. :)

How much are you paying to insure your Teslas? I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year).

Eric Holder says

I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year)

Actually its even more.

Blue says

Eric Holder says

I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year)

Actually its even more.

HOLY MOTHER OF FUCKING SHIT!

Eric Holder says

How much are you paying to insure your Teslas? I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year).

Blue says

Actually its even more.

Status Symbol Prices, losers.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Eric Holder says

How much are you paying to insure your Teslas? I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year).

Blue says

Actually its even more.

Status Symbol Prices, losers.

Is that a Tesla in California? A Model 3 is said to cost about $1,600/yr to insure.
https://insuraviz.com/vehicles/tesla/tesla-model-3-insurance/

HeadSet says

B.A.C.A.H. says

Eric Holder says

How much are you paying to insure your Teslas? I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year).

Blue says

Actually its even more.

Status Symbol Prices, losers.

Is that a Tesla in California? A Model 3 is said to cost about $1,600/yr to insure.
https://insuraviz.com/vehicles/tesla/tesla-model-3-insurance/

Yes CA, try Plaid with all options on and adding a young driver costs a bit more.

The internet seems to think a Tesla model 3 uses about 0.25 kWh per mile traveled. My current off-peak electric rate is about $0.40 per kWh. (Electricity pricing is convoluted here, but that's about what I calculate.) So, that means 10¢ per mile for the electric car. With the current "elevated" gasoline prices, a gasoline powered vehicle would need to get 50 MPG on $5 gasoline to match 10¢/mile. If gasoline goes down to $3 then you'd only need to get 30 MPG, which is easy for many modern cars and even some trucklets.

Blue says

Yes CA, try Plaid with all options on and adding a young driver costs a bit more.

Yes, but insuring a Plaid is like insuring a Ferrari.

Blue says

HeadSet says

B.A.C.A.H. says

Eric Holder says

How much are you paying to insure your Teslas? I heard the rates are outrageous on these (to the tune of $3K/year).

Blue says

Actually its even more.

Status Symbol Prices, losers.

Is that a Tesla in California? A Model 3 is said to cost about $1,600/yr to insure.
https://insuraviz.com/vehicles/tesla/tesla-model-3-insurance/

Yes CA, try Plaid with all options on and adding a young driver costs a bit more.

Young driver is a very special case.

NuttBoxer says

BUT HE SAVED SO MUCH MONEY ON GAS!!! AND DON'T FORGET THAT ACCELEREYSHUN!!!

Eric Holder says

BUT HE SAVED SO MUCH MONEY ON GAS!!! AND DON'T FORGET THAT ACCELEREYSHUN!!!

Nope, not even acceleration. This is a hybrid, not a full electric.

Using a small generator like in that above pic would take several hours just to get 5 miles of range.

Beating the dead horse here, but EV's cannot compete with ICE trucks or large SUV's. Ever probably. I NEED to tow large amounts over long distances and not stop every 150 miles. We're nowhere near that point from a consumer standpoint. It would take massive batteries. I can tow 9k with my Armada. That would include most campers, trailers for work, etc.

Outside of what Musk is trying to build for the trucking industry, there's nothing close to a daily driver with a family of 5 that can tow 9k in the EV world. I don't think anyone is even trying at this point. And that's what I need. I'm okay paying up to $10/gal if I have to. I need the utility and EV's don't have it at all.

HeadSet says

Eric Holder says

BUT HE SAVED SO MUCH MONEY ON GAS!!! AND DON'T FORGET THAT ACCELEREYSHUN!!!

Nope, not even acceleration. This is a hybrid, not a full electric.

I'm in the battery market right now for my golf cart I got. Fuck me running. I'm looking at $2,500-3k for a LIPO battery that fits my needs. Want to throw new tires and a lift kit on it as well. Hoping to get 30-40 miles range on Wisconsin trails, which are as smooth as a golf course, not super off road, so a modified cart could handle it. If you've done the Wisconsin journey, it's basically ATV/snowmobile trails and/or maintained gravel roads. Oh and bars.

Also could use it around town and not drive our big cars. This is where EV's make sense to me. I just don't think EV trucks or SUV's are practical financially. My Armada to get the same specs would like need a $100k battery BEFORE the body, chassis, brakes and other parts.

Put gas and it goes!

Can't beat that folks!

That may be why the internal combustion engine has lasted so long.

casandra says

Put gas and it goes!

Can't beat that folks!

That may be why the internal combustion engine has lasted so long.

And why it's not going anywhere. Except maybe some looney places like UK. But even California won't be able to kill it.

Patrick says

Next strp in the EV evolution: make the gas generator in that space permanenly installed and integrated into the vehicle control system for smooth operation...

🤡

I have had 2 electric cars, and been pretty happy with them, especially on cost of ownership.. I think the OP article is making some pretty odd assumptions about how often people use public rapid charging vs charging at home on the off-peak rate offered by utilities. Those assumptions do not reflect my reality at all. But I will say it depends on your circumstances whether an electric car makes sense for you.

My cars are both nissan leaf (I leased the first one and returned it at the end of the lease, and bought the 2nd one), and i got them pretty cheap. Insurance costs are same as any car, if you have comprehensive insurance the cost will be related to the cost of the car.

My experience is that they my Leafs are the lowest total cost of ownership cars (on a per mile basis) of any cars I have owned, even lower than my honda civic, which is pretty low TCO. Purchase cost for me was about the same as a civic, but fuel costs are ~1/3 the cost of a civic, and maintenance costs are extremely low.

I think people who own a home and have a garage where they can charge, and who also own more than one car for the family (so the other car can be a gas car) can make good use of electric cars. Off peak rates vary.. when I first got an electric car in 2015, I paid 11 cents/kwh. But lately, PGE has increased this to 26 cents/kwh. 'breakeven' where electricity costs the same as gas is around 50 cents/kwh. So I used to pay about 1/4 the cost of gas... but now I pay about 1/2 the cost of gas. On rare occasions where I need to use a public quick charger, I pay 50 cents/kwh, which is about the same as gas. but I have only done that maybe 5 times in 7 years. The rest of the time I charge my car in my garage on a timer so it uses off-peak rates.

Maintenance cost is lower, no oil change, brakes rarely wear down due to regen braking reducing friction braking demand. the only maintenance I have ever had done on either car is tire rotations and tire replacements.

Overall I like the experience of driving electric cars... they have a smooth torque and pleasant driving characteristics, and they are quiet. Some of them have super hardcore acceleration.. but my leaf is pretty wimpy in this regard, beats my civic, but doesnt beat a corvette. Because I charge in my garage more than 99% of the time, i dont have to find a gas station and spend 5 minutes going out of my way to fill up... so overall if given a choice I always choose the electric car in my garage. I have a gas car for when I need more range than my leaf offers, and Im happy to drive it when I need to, but for commuting, errands, local stuff, the majority of my driving, I always choose my electric car.

Its not great for roadtrips, and I've never tried to do one.

Thats my experience.

The new ford and some other trucks will offer on-board inverters that can power your house in a power outage, or run tools/appliances remotely. Thats a nice perk. My car doesnt do that, but I'd like to own one that did.

As with all things, everyone's use case and circumstances vary... if you are a 1 car family, need to drive long distances, or dont have a home where you can regularly charge, an EV may not be a great choice for you. But if you are a 2 car family and can charge your EV at home and use a gas car for roadtrips, a modestly priced eV can be extremely low TCO, and they are very pleasant to drive.

DeficitHawk says

I have had 2 electric cars, and been pretty happy with them, especially on cost of ownership.. I think the OP article is making some pretty odd assumptions about how often people use public rapid charging vs charging at home on the off-peak rate offered by utilities. Those assumptions do not reflect my reality at all. But I will say it depends on your circumstances whether an electric car makes sense for you.

My cars are both nissan leaf (I leased the first one and returned it at the end of the lease, and bought the 2nd one), and i got them pretty cheap. Insurance costs are same as any car, if you have comprehensive insurance the cost will be related to the cost of the car.

My experience is that they my Leafs are the lowest total cost of ownership cars (on a per mile basis) of any cars I have owned, even lower than my honda civic, which is pretty low TCO. Purchase cost for me was about the same as a civic, but fuel costs are ~1/3 the cost of a civic, and...

Very well said @DeficitHawk. It’s ironic the folks, who are negative about EV, don’t own an EV.

We have 2 EV’s and no gas car. Wife’s car charges about twice a week at home during off-peak. I get free charge for life and also charge about twice a week. Plug it in, go for a walk or jog, or shopping. Come back and 87-95% charged most of the time.

Most siblings also own 1-2 EV. It works for us. The experience has been great in the last 5+ years.

RWSGFY says

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.

I am surprised that no one seems to see what I see. Biden's Administration does not care because all is going fine for their goal. The plan is not to substitute electric mobility for ICE, the plan is for the public to stop driving while reserving personal transportation to politicians and the connected rich. Joe Citizen will take the bus while living in clustered cities. The "financial reality" is that an electric car in 2035 will cost the equivalent of $100,000 and be subject to high road use and mileage taxes to "pay for infrastructure." Get used to riding by bus or subway, living close to work in order to walk or cycle, and at best using a shared ride service, where something like 15 passenger van is summoned and scheduled by app to picked up and drop off people in an optimized route.

HeadSet says

I am surprised that no one seems to see what I see. Biden's Administration does not care because all is going fine for their goal. The plan is not to substitute electric mobility for ICE, the plan is for the public to stop driving while reserving personal transportation to politicians and the connected rich.

Makes sense, but I have no intention of giving up my big cars. I NEED them. Not a want. Until EV/Car manufacturers solve that problem, 90% of America will not adopt EVs. SFBA, LA, NYC, MIA, etc, fine, they work over short commuter distances.

It really can't work in a place like IL as the OP states or Wyoming. Most of IL is cornfields. Rockford, Decatur, Champaign, Peoria and Springfield are the next biggest and they're all spread out. EVs are and will always be for city dwellers that don't travel at all outside the "zone" so to speak. Let the private market figure it out. Zero tax dollars should be going to EV's (and a lot of other things...).