patrick.net

My views are quite similar to Nomadtoons', and I too am still here. Let me tell you why:

First, my elderly in-laws are here. We are staying here in order to be near them. If prices don't fall within the next couple of years I will probably force them to move to Chicago or Dallas with us. They are in their 80's, and everything they are familiar with is here, so I am waiting a little longer in the hope that we won't have to ask them to move.

Second, I like it here. CA is a wonderful place. It has many problems, but there is a lot of good stuff too. And I can ignore most of the problems. I am an ultra-conservative Republican, for example, but the extreme liberalism I am surrounded by doesn't really bother me. We Republicans have had to deal with the liberal media, liberal educational system, etc. for decades and we're used to feeling like outsiders. Becuase I like living here, and can put up with the disadvantages, I have decided to sit tight and rent just a little bit longer in the hope that I will be able to afford to stay.

Third, CA does have some professional advantages that other states don't have. I can tell you that the LA legal community is far, far more sophisticated than the one in Chicago. The overall quality of legal work is noticably higher here, and that's rewarding. The pay is not higher, but my job is more challenging and intersting than it was in Chicago. Here in CA, I get to work with the very best. There are plenty of good lawyers in Chicago, but the opportunities to do truly exceptional work are fewer there. This is true for a lot of professions -- entertainment, music, arguably tech, etc.

Finally, there is a desire not to give up. The economic forces that underlie this housing bubble are bigger than I am, I understand that. But I don't want to quit, you know?

Anyway, that's my $0.02. The one other thing I would add is that people who have lived in other areas sometimes have a broader perspective as a result of this. For instance, yeah, people in the South can be very religious. It always makes me uncomfortable to hear someone refer to "my faith" in casual conversation, for example, even though I myself am a fairly devout Catholic. But those obnoxious old hippies here in LA are every bit as bad in their own way. During the 2004 election season my wife's car got keyed three times and egged twice thanks to her Bush/Cheney bumper sticker. One time I was at a meeting at this public interest law firm in Santa Monica, one guy casually mentioned that he didn't know anyone who supported the Iraq war. When my boss volunteered that I support it, the guy leading the meeting stopped in mid sentence. You could have heard a pin drop in the silence that followed. The thing was, they weren't angry at the discovery of heritc in their midst -- oh, no. They had never even met anyone who had those views. They looked at me with utter confusion and amazement. The experience was that novel.

There are closed-minded people everywhere. The South, the Midwest, and CA all have them. People like Nomadtoons and I aren't put off by the idea of moving to an area where people are religious becuase we are already putting up with just as much rigidity and intolerance right here. That kind of thing is inescapable, there is no reason to pack up and move -- or refrain from packing up and moving -- because of it.

-"idea"
+"ideal"

FormerAptBroker,

I think you've nailed it here! I moved out of MBS some time back b/c the asset class as a whole is not healthy. And you're right, investors are not being paid for the risk they are taking. I must admit that I didn't know about the "one bad apple" when putting together a block of loans though. It's going to be a sh*tstorm.

Randy H,

Chagrin Falls?

DinOR,

That's NE Ohio. I'm from SW Ohio. Hint, they shot a movie there after all the hoopla because the downtown looks like something out of 1800s Americana.

nomadtoons2 Says:

"The fact that ethinic groups are shoved into ghettos here- like hunters point and West Oakland is proof to me, except that people don’t consider this to be racism. Racial segregation and unfair economic conditons are still rampant here."

Ethnic groups are not "shoved" in to ghettos here, they can live anywhere they want…

Every one of my black friends as an undergrad had lower high school grades and SAT scores than my white friends (and way lower than my Asian friends) but almost every one had more job offers and made more money after graduation.

Everyone of my black friends in grad school had lower undergrad grades and GMAT scores than others I knew yet every one of them got way more job offers and were making way more money after graduation.

Just because many ethnic groups that "chose" to live in ghettos does not mean that members of the same ethnic group will have any problem doing well...

Randy H,

I know it will come to me! I had a client from Chagrin and he always commented that it looked like something out of a Norman Rockwell painting. Speaking of which the Silverton Mural Society elected some years back to use his work as the basis for our image. The film Bandits w/Bruce Willis was filmed here b/c of it's 1800's appeal. What you say about "having roots" is so true. I managed for alot of banks and institutions but found myself in an uphill battle to get people to move their IRA over even though I've lived here for almost 20 years.

DinOR,

The movie was a screen adaptation of a Neil Simon Pulitzer Prize winning play. It was filmed there for the same reasons: Normal Rockwell frozen in time.

I will tell you about a cultural difference that really does make me want to leave CA: extravagent children's birthday parites.

When I was growing up in a blue-collar Midwestern exurb, birthday parties were low-key affairs. The parents would bake and decoarte a Betty Crocker-style cake themselves; you would only get a bakery cake for really special occasions, like confirmation and graduation. If lunch was served at the party it would consist of hot dogs and Fritos, or maybe pizza. There were no clowns or entertianers of any kind. If someone was feeling really, really flush they'd get an ice cream cake from Baskin-Robbins, but that was pretty much as extravagant as it got.

Venues like Chuck-E-Cheese and Showbiz Pizza were too expensive for birthdays. The average family could not afford to take 15 kids there. Instead, groups would go there -- the soccer team, the Cub Scout troop, etc. Each parent would contribute $4.00 or $7.00 or whatever to cover the cost of their own kid's meal. This worked out well for everyone: the kids got to go to the restaurant, the parents could afford the cost, and every family was able to take advantage of the savings offered by the group rate.

Imagine my surprise when my kids started getting invited to birthday parties out here. A former coworker recently invited me to her daugher's third birthday party. It was to be held at her house, and features the following attractions: Pony rides, a clown, a ballon vender, a face painter, and catered food. Again, it is her daughter's third birthday. This is the second such party my kids have been invited to. The other one was held at a Children's Museum and was almost as extravagent.

Both of the women who hosted these parties are excellent mothers. They are having these parties for the the noblest of reasons; they want to make their kids' birthdays special. And the parties aren't that expensive in absolute terms, even the one with all of the entertainers can't possibly cost more than $1500-$2000.

But the whole thing still creeps me out, badly. I do not like seeing children's parties that are this extravagent. It sends a chill down my spine. I think it sends the wrong message to impressionable little kids. I do not want my kids attending these parties, and we sure as hell will not be throwing one.

This is a genuine cultural difference that really bothers me. This is the kind of thing that really might become a deal breaker if it keeps on happening. I often feel like a fish out of water here, but that's okay, it's part of life. Besides, now that I have lived outside of the Midwest I am no longer entirely comfortable either. Life is full of compromises. But man, these birthday parties are the sort of thing that might just make me pack up and move away.

@Joe Schmoe,

What's your problem? Aren't the little darlings worth it? You should feel positively guilty for not taking out a third mortgage to finance a party your three-year-old will barely remember someday! C'mon and get with the program, man... Exactly how long have you been here? Living here should have taught you that Big Spending = love by now.

I just don't get your attitude... Oh, and btw, please sign my petition to ban any new housing or property taxes, please. I'm entitled to become eternally rich and live off the appreciation of my 1960's split-level ranch. And don't trust anyone under 40. Far out...

HARM, DinOR-

The funny thing is, when my wife wanted to get the cake for our eldest son's first birthday party from a bakery, it was sort of a watershed moment for me.

"Well, I am a rich lawyer now," I told myself. "I've got to get used to this sort of extravagence. It may make me uncomfortable, but I am in a different world now and just have to get used to these things, like it or not."

I resolved to make extra certain that my kids would not be spoiled by the extravagence of a store-bought birthday cake.

Little did I know...

tannenbaum,

In general I will tend to agree with you but I defy you to show me an opulent childrens's birthday party in Cicero! I'll know that more people have joined my club b/c there will be virtually NO traffic on the weekends (which used to sacred btw) and "shows" like the Home Decorating Show etc. will evaporate b/c of lackluster attendance! Please remember to make the LEAST of your weekend by making it as uneventful as possible.

Joe Schmoe,

Actually, none of my MD friends or my wife's lawyer friends have ever had one of these extravagant kid bday parties, not even senior partners. Not to stereotype, but I wonder if the delayed gratification needed to get into those professions selects out people who gravitate towards public displays of bling. Of course, there are plenty of exceptions, but I've definitely noticed a trend. Either that, or all our friends and I are cheap bastards (our poor kid!)

Joe Schmoe,

Joe don't give in to the "dark side"! Join me and my "Last of the Great Backyard Americans". Lawn Darts! Horse shoes. Remember Whiffle Ball? Not only do we need to be we vigilant about not getting talked into buying a McMansion we need to sculpt our family's expectations. Summer camps that offer canoeing and volleyball are drying up! Nowadays kids are being groomed to expect "chef prepared" meals and cultural "events". Oh, you know what, I've had enough! Bachelor parties, bachelorette parties, recently divorced parties (all extravagant). Everybody wants these McChateaux's but no one wants to spend any time there. Get in your car bright and early this Saturday morning and park at the main intersection by your house. Start early, get a cup of coffee and just sit there. 7 O'clock, nothing, 9 O'clock nothing, then between 9 and 10 the whole world wakes up and they're all leaving. And where are they going? Why they're going to the spending orgy of course! On the bright side, if you do refrain and stay home just think of it! You'll have the whole place to yourself!

tannenbaum,

I think you're missing the point. These "over the top" parties are just plain wrong. No matter your locale or socioeconomic background. Naperville is a souless place with no downtown or character whatsoever. How do I know? It's where Paula Zahn is from. I never did understand why she didn't marry Michael J. Fox. They could have made the perfect souless couple! Yeah, and people from Naperville are known for their legendary toughness, just like Cicero.

DinOR,

we listen to the White Sox game on a single speaker AM radio while grilling ball park hot dogs and drink macro brews by the pallet load.

Let's make it a Cubbie/Sox double header with choice Ol' Mil. We can go all out and get a steel keg and enough ice to keep it cold while we grill lake trout and steaks.

Randy H,

I still can't figure out where it is that you are from! But let me work on it a little.

There is quite a bit of inter-league play scheduled this year and it should be fun. I don't mean to get adamant about the "spending orgy" or even being called "lower middle class" (hell we were proud just have the middle part in there) but if you're spending a $1,000 plus per birthday times 2 or 3 kids until they are 18 or even 21 it's a pauper's fortune! My father was fond of saying that we could run a mirror image of America just with what's wasted. And this is definitely a waste.

It's funny, I actually grew up in Arlington Heights, but that was before it gentrified. Boy, has it changed a lot.

When I was growing up in the 70's and 80's, Arlington Heights was the original exurb. Becuase all of the jobs were in downtown Chicago, AH was an undesirable place to live because getting to work required at least a two and a half hour commute (and that was only if you could catch an express train). As a result, houses were nice but cheap. AH was sort of a "second generation suburb;" most of the peopel there had grown up on the South Side; their parents had been part of the white flight in the 50's and had moved their families to places like Jefferson Park and Burbank. Their kids moved even farther out to places like Arlington Heights. The trend has continued; my high school friends all live in places like Lake Zurich.

AH was a strictly lower middle class community. My freinds' fathers all had occupations like fireman, plumber, insurance salesmen, gas station owner, state government paralegal, etc. My dad drove a cab. The moms worked part time at retail stores for minimum wage. Almost no one had a true white collar professional job, one kid I knew had a dad who was an architect, but there were certianly no doctors, lawyers, or executives.

The rural Midwest was close by, in 10 minutes you'd be in the middle of corn fields and my mom had to join the Farm Bureau in order to qualify for a 10% discount on her car insurance.

The culture, such as it was, was striclty Middle American. No one -- and I mean no one -- owned a BMW or an MB, everyone had custom vans and big Oldsmobile sedans. There were no microbreweries, tapas bars, etc., and the local "cocktail lounge" was more Soprano than Sanatra.

All this changed in the mid 90's, when corporate offices started to move to the suburbs. Suddenly, instead of being 2 and a half hours from work, AH was only 20 minutes from the office. Property values skyrocketed. BMW's started apparing on the streets. Then Starbucks. Brokerages. I probably wouldn't even recognize it today.

Today, the middle class homes of my youth (alas, we were renters so my parents do not get to benefit from the changes) are being torn down and replaced with McMansions. There are something like 40 homes listed for more than $1,000,000 in AH on Realtor.com right now. In Arlington Heights!

It would not totally surprise me to find extravagent children's birthday parties there now. This may be a generational thing. But I would be surprised to find the people I grew up with hosting such parties for their kids. I do think there is a real cultural differnece here.

DinOR, Schmoe

I didn't move to Chicago until after college, so I'm really a small town Ohio boy. I did have the pleasure of living in Schaumburg and Palatine until I got smart enough to move to the city North Side. I had to toughen up before moving directly to the city. You know, being a hayseed and all.

astrid,

That's a very narcissistic view, even for me. (and I'm one of the few holdout fans of Ayn Rand Objectivism)

Joe, Randy,

I've waited sometime for this topic to come up so here goes.

Along with my Last of the Great Backyard Americans Club I'm starting another "movement". Just b/c you're a hayseed or lower middle class mid-westerner born but for one reason (to do better than your father did) doesn't mean you have to "carry" the company. STANDBY. Most of the sales force west of the Mississippi is from the mid-west. Hungry kids from state schools or NO school that were promsied a territory and all the product they could move. They won't fail and come home with their tail between their legs and employers know this! They've never seen anything but asphalt or corn fields and they are not coming back. No way. They'll kill themselves trying. THIS IS WHY IT"S O.K TO LOOK DOWN ON SALES PEOPLE ON THE WEST COAST. (None or few of them are from here). In fact, we KNOW you're not from here b/c you're in the sales dept! Yeah, yeah, I know! But my sales guy is from Redondo Beach. No he's not. He's from Des Moines ( he just got tired of telling his hayseed story and looking "unsophisticated") Here's my movement: Do not stop selling, do not stop working. Just work no harder than the guy that sits next to you! Economic collapse! 2 quarters tops. Let your sales manager/production manager explain. Besides you've "found yourself" and you're a (insert pre-occupied hobby here)! Let everybody else move that inventory/product and deal with the rejection. Ask for a transfer to admin. See what they say.

We’ve tried to go on the cheap as much as possible, and you still end up spending at least a couple hundred $$ just on party favors, drinks, snacks and so on.

Just give your kid a big lobster. It is cheaper than "a couple hundred $$" and your kid will love it more.

this past weekend my cousin’s husband retired, I didn’t go to the party, but I guess his kids gave him a 1963 Corvette Stingray for retiring.

What is a Corvette Stingray?

1963? I bet there are no airbags.

DinOr-

Yeah, and people from Naperville are known for their legendary toughness, just like Cicero.

LOL! I just about lost it there.

A friend of ours still lives on the South Side. If we stay in LA, I have resolved to send my kids to live with their Uncle Keith for one summer. He'll make sure that they are raised right, if you know what I mean. My wife is horrified at the thought, but you and I know that it will be a very good thing.

Astrid-

Thanks. We'll try that.

Interstingly, the birthday cake wasn't that expensive. We went to a really good bakery and it still only cost around $16. The Betty Crocker cake would probably cost at least $6-$8 to make when you factor in the cost of the eggs, milk, different kinds frosting, etc, so it was well worth it.

I am
in the mood
for feeding
the thread bubble.

Have you been going Huh recently?

Oh my God! I agree with astrid on this issue. I think a lot of it is overindulgence to the child and mommy competition.

As I kid, I never had any birthday party and I would not have wanted one anyway.

DinOR,

I'm in. Even though I've never been in sales proper, being an entrepreneur is pretty much like doing everything else and having a sales cape and mask in your brief case.

Joe,

For the same reasons I plan to have my son spend at least one summer back "home" working the fields detasseling corn. If he can survive with all digits attached, then he'll be a better man for it. It took me only two summers working corn and bailing to figure out how to land a job the next summer as our local library's first "computer programmer" (really just a sotware installer back then). I can only hope he's a faster learner than I was.

PS: The statement that I haven't moved back to my home state due to the lack of economic opportunities. Wrong. The fact is, while I might not make a bazlillion bucks like people can out here, you only need a fraction of the salary to get more there. The job market is actually doing quite well across the state in all industries.read here:http://www.expansionmanagement.com/smo/newsviewer/default.asp?cmd=articledetail&articleid=17012&st=3

As for the rest who chimed in, I appologize. Many of you are older, wealthier, and longer term residents than I am. Your percpectives on what it is really like to be a middle class, educated, busting- my-ass -everyday kind of guy trying to figure out how in the hell things got so terribly out of whack here and what my options are may be diffrent than mine.Maybe not. I come here to unload sometimes. I'm frusturated.Frusturation is too kind a word for how I feel as a guy who just got married and has the same rights as some of you who bought " when the buying was good", but can't. If I could snap my fingers and be back in TN and have a decent job and all that other stuff taken care of, I'd do it. But it isn't as easy as that as you all know, and the longer I stay here, the more irratated I get at the economic disparity. I'm sorry of sometimes my posts get into the danger zone of what is acceptable here. I don't pretend to be highly philosophical. I'm just speaking my kind, so forgive me if I go off in the weeds.I love it here, but I love it there too. The way things are here in this state wants me to simply say Screw it. If you're familiar with the artist Jonathon Richmond, then his song: " city Vs country" sums up how I feel perfectly. I'm a part redneck- part artist- part semi-intellectual person caught in the middle.

Randy H,

Glad to have you on board! Believe me, I know it's alot easier to be a pure "sales animal" then the breed that actually has to conjure up a product "to sell" AND clear all of the regulatory/legal hurdles as well. In your case you are truly ALWAYS selling b/c you represent the company 24/7. I don't want to beat it to death but I've been "sold" by some of the native reps and they just concede so easily. I actually get them laughing and then help them with their "presentation". Some of them are eager to learn how to sell and you just have to admire that. I don't want to live in an America w/out selling. "Marketers" on the other hand think we're obsolete b/c if someone has to "ask for the order" then their approach has failed. People today want a Jetta (not a car) a Starbucks (not a coffee). This had become such a dying art it's actually awkward these days.

I’ve seen this too. It’s so hard to find the right balance. I think overindulgence is a form of abuse just as surely as neglect is, but how does one know when you’re crossing the line?

Don't worry, SQT, it is all in the stars. ;)

You and your kid will do just fine.

Wow, now this thread is turning into something completely tangential. Birthday parties for kids is now a problem ? Meaning there is a right way and a wrong way to celebrate it ? (Assuming having kids is OK)

What' next ? How much people spend on monthly cable TV ? Why buy a book when you can borrow it from library ? Why buy a designer perfume when most people cannot tell the difference ?

Most people earn money to spend it the way they want. I certainly do. The only reason I save, invest and earn is to spend it later on something I like. It could be on education for kids or on rare books or for eating in the most expensive restaurants or BUYING A McMANSION or whatever.

Spending is a PERSONAL CHOICE. There are lot of intangibles associated with it. It's not pure accounting.

astrid Says:

I’m very thankful someone’s having kids who’ll sponge bath me in my old age

By then, that job will be outsourced or done by a guest worker.

These are the people who have missed the boat completely and are trying to jump from the dock and the boat’s 20 yards out IMO.

20 yards? Think international waters.

To BA Or Not To BA Says:
To BA Or Not To BA Says:

Spending is a PERSONAL CHOICE.

To bring this discussion back to the topic of this board, the problem with these extravagances is when (as some here recount) folks clearly without the means to blow $4K on a 5-year-old's birthday party do it. It's just another symptom of the debt society, need for bling showiness, and keeping up with the Joneses.

And to bring it back to this specific thread (assuming HELOC is 2 syllables):

A birthday party
For my spoiled kid. How to pay?
Take out a HELOC.

RE: international waters

Perhaps people can retire on old barges in international waters just outside a fourth world country. Workers can be ferried to "sponge bath" retirees. These barges will be earthquake-proof and is save against rising sea level due to global warming.

Does anyone know how far out from the coast for them to be in international waters? This is important because gambling will have to be a revenue source for the operator. :)

Joe Schmoe,

I used to run deliveries for my old man and my godfather up that way on Rte. 83. They got up there more often as they divided their "off time" between Sportsman Park, Arlington and Comiskey! I still may go to Safeco when the Sox are in town later this month and we will be as we have always been, (in the center field bleachers). Watch for the "Sox Nation" morons on ESPN. (I'll be, yes, in THAT crowd).

Peter P,

By International Maritime Law I believe it is still 12 nautical miles.

I wonder how many of the ultra-extravagant parties have been funded by home equity? Can you imagine taking out a loan for a party?

SQT, come on, that party will cost you only $50 per month [for the next 30 years]. How can you not do that? Do you even love your kid!? ;)

Randy H Says:

"astrid, That’s a very narcissistic view, even for me. (and I’m one of the few holdout fans of Ayn Rand Objectivism)"

I'm amazed at the number of Ayn Rand fans I meet. I first struggled through Atlas Shrugged as a 12 year old kid and knew it was an important book but didn't understand everything. When I read Atlas Shrugged again (and everything else written by Ayn Rand) in High School my entire outlook on life changed...