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DinOR, Schmoe

I didn't move to Chicago until after college, so I'm really a small town Ohio boy. I did have the pleasure of living in Schaumburg and Palatine until I got smart enough to move to the city North Side. I had to toughen up before moving directly to the city. You know, being a hayseed and all.

astrid,

That's a very narcissistic view, even for me. (and I'm one of the few holdout fans of Ayn Rand Objectivism)

Joe, Randy,

I've waited sometime for this topic to come up so here goes.

Along with my Last of the Great Backyard Americans Club I'm starting another "movement". Just b/c you're a hayseed or lower middle class mid-westerner born but for one reason (to do better than your father did) doesn't mean you have to "carry" the company. STANDBY. Most of the sales force west of the Mississippi is from the mid-west. Hungry kids from state schools or NO school that were promsied a territory and all the product they could move. They won't fail and come home with their tail between their legs and employers know this! They've never seen anything but asphalt or corn fields and they are not coming back. No way. They'll kill themselves trying. THIS IS WHY IT"S O.K TO LOOK DOWN ON SALES PEOPLE ON THE WEST COAST. (None or few of them are from here). In fact, we KNOW you're not from here b/c you're in the sales dept! Yeah, yeah, I know! But my sales guy is from Redondo Beach. No he's not. He's from Des Moines ( he just got tired of telling his hayseed story and looking "unsophisticated") Here's my movement: Do not stop selling, do not stop working. Just work no harder than the guy that sits next to you! Economic collapse! 2 quarters tops. Let your sales manager/production manager explain. Besides you've "found yourself" and you're a (insert pre-occupied hobby here)! Let everybody else move that inventory/product and deal with the rejection. Ask for a transfer to admin. See what they say.

We’ve tried to go on the cheap as much as possible, and you still end up spending at least a couple hundred $$ just on party favors, drinks, snacks and so on.

Just give your kid a big lobster. It is cheaper than "a couple hundred $$" and your kid will love it more.

this past weekend my cousin’s husband retired, I didn’t go to the party, but I guess his kids gave him a 1963 Corvette Stingray for retiring.

What is a Corvette Stingray?

1963? I bet there are no airbags.

DinOr-

Yeah, and people from Naperville are known for their legendary toughness, just like Cicero.

LOL! I just about lost it there.

A friend of ours still lives on the South Side. If we stay in LA, I have resolved to send my kids to live with their Uncle Keith for one summer. He'll make sure that they are raised right, if you know what I mean. My wife is horrified at the thought, but you and I know that it will be a very good thing.

Astrid-

Thanks. We'll try that.

Interstingly, the birthday cake wasn't that expensive. We went to a really good bakery and it still only cost around $16. The Betty Crocker cake would probably cost at least $6-$8 to make when you factor in the cost of the eggs, milk, different kinds frosting, etc, so it was well worth it.

I am
in the mood
for feeding
the thread bubble.

Have you been going Huh recently?

Oh my God! I agree with astrid on this issue. I think a lot of it is overindulgence to the child and mommy competition.

As I kid, I never had any birthday party and I would not have wanted one anyway.

DinOR,

I'm in. Even though I've never been in sales proper, being an entrepreneur is pretty much like doing everything else and having a sales cape and mask in your brief case.

Joe,

For the same reasons I plan to have my son spend at least one summer back "home" working the fields detasseling corn. If he can survive with all digits attached, then he'll be a better man for it. It took me only two summers working corn and bailing to figure out how to land a job the next summer as our local library's first "computer programmer" (really just a sotware installer back then). I can only hope he's a faster learner than I was.

PS: The statement that I haven't moved back to my home state due to the lack of economic opportunities. Wrong. The fact is, while I might not make a bazlillion bucks like people can out here, you only need a fraction of the salary to get more there. The job market is actually doing quite well across the state in all industries.read here:http://www.expansionmanagement.com/smo/newsviewer/default.asp?cmd=articledetail&articleid=17012&st=3

As for the rest who chimed in, I appologize. Many of you are older, wealthier, and longer term residents than I am. Your percpectives on what it is really like to be a middle class, educated, busting- my-ass -everyday kind of guy trying to figure out how in the hell things got so terribly out of whack here and what my options are may be diffrent than mine.Maybe not. I come here to unload sometimes. I'm frusturated.Frusturation is too kind a word for how I feel as a guy who just got married and has the same rights as some of you who bought " when the buying was good", but can't. If I could snap my fingers and be back in TN and have a decent job and all that other stuff taken care of, I'd do it. But it isn't as easy as that as you all know, and the longer I stay here, the more irratated I get at the economic disparity. I'm sorry of sometimes my posts get into the danger zone of what is acceptable here. I don't pretend to be highly philosophical. I'm just speaking my kind, so forgive me if I go off in the weeds.I love it here, but I love it there too. The way things are here in this state wants me to simply say Screw it. If you're familiar with the artist Jonathon Richmond, then his song: " city Vs country" sums up how I feel perfectly. I'm a part redneck- part artist- part semi-intellectual person caught in the middle.

Randy H,

Glad to have you on board! Believe me, I know it's alot easier to be a pure "sales animal" then the breed that actually has to conjure up a product "to sell" AND clear all of the regulatory/legal hurdles as well. In your case you are truly ALWAYS selling b/c you represent the company 24/7. I don't want to beat it to death but I've been "sold" by some of the native reps and they just concede so easily. I actually get them laughing and then help them with their "presentation". Some of them are eager to learn how to sell and you just have to admire that. I don't want to live in an America w/out selling. "Marketers" on the other hand think we're obsolete b/c if someone has to "ask for the order" then their approach has failed. People today want a Jetta (not a car) a Starbucks (not a coffee). This had become such a dying art it's actually awkward these days.

I’ve seen this too. It’s so hard to find the right balance. I think overindulgence is a form of abuse just as surely as neglect is, but how does one know when you’re crossing the line?

Don't worry, SQT, it is all in the stars. ;)

You and your kid will do just fine.

Wow, now this thread is turning into something completely tangential. Birthday parties for kids is now a problem ? Meaning there is a right way and a wrong way to celebrate it ? (Assuming having kids is OK)

What' next ? How much people spend on monthly cable TV ? Why buy a book when you can borrow it from library ? Why buy a designer perfume when most people cannot tell the difference ?

Most people earn money to spend it the way they want. I certainly do. The only reason I save, invest and earn is to spend it later on something I like. It could be on education for kids or on rare books or for eating in the most expensive restaurants or BUYING A McMANSION or whatever.

Spending is a PERSONAL CHOICE. There are lot of intangibles associated with it. It's not pure accounting.

astrid Says:

I’m very thankful someone’s having kids who’ll sponge bath me in my old age

By then, that job will be outsourced or done by a guest worker.

These are the people who have missed the boat completely and are trying to jump from the dock and the boat’s 20 yards out IMO.

20 yards? Think international waters.

To BA Or Not To BA Says:
To BA Or Not To BA Says:

Spending is a PERSONAL CHOICE.

To bring this discussion back to the topic of this board, the problem with these extravagances is when (as some here recount) folks clearly without the means to blow $4K on a 5-year-old's birthday party do it. It's just another symptom of the debt society, need for bling showiness, and keeping up with the Joneses.

And to bring it back to this specific thread (assuming HELOC is 2 syllables):

A birthday party
For my spoiled kid. How to pay?
Take out a HELOC.

RE: international waters

Perhaps people can retire on old barges in international waters just outside a fourth world country. Workers can be ferried to "sponge bath" retirees. These barges will be earthquake-proof and is save against rising sea level due to global warming.

Does anyone know how far out from the coast for them to be in international waters? This is important because gambling will have to be a revenue source for the operator. :)

Joe Schmoe,

I used to run deliveries for my old man and my godfather up that way on Rte. 83. They got up there more often as they divided their "off time" between Sportsman Park, Arlington and Comiskey! I still may go to Safeco when the Sox are in town later this month and we will be as we have always been, (in the center field bleachers). Watch for the "Sox Nation" morons on ESPN. (I'll be, yes, in THAT crowd).

Peter P,

By International Maritime Law I believe it is still 12 nautical miles.

I wonder how many of the ultra-extravagant parties have been funded by home equity? Can you imagine taking out a loan for a party?

SQT, come on, that party will cost you only $50 per month [for the next 30 years]. How can you not do that? Do you even love your kid!? ;)

Randy H Says:

"astrid, That’s a very narcissistic view, even for me. (and I’m one of the few holdout fans of Ayn Rand Objectivism)"

I'm amazed at the number of Ayn Rand fans I meet. I first struggled through Atlas Shrugged as a 12 year old kid and knew it was an important book but didn't understand everything. When I read Atlas Shrugged again (and everything else written by Ayn Rand) in High School my entire outlook on life changed...

Oh well heck, I should go and reserve the yacht right now!

Do you want me to send a "Personal Mortgage Consultant" over?

Skibum,

Thank you. Well put. The way I look at it is if you're a professional musician then fine, spend what you need to get your sound right. Garage hacks like me spending major $'s on a US made Fender Strat? Have you heard me play? Now that's difference between a justifiable expense and obscene! Many of my friends that don't even play as (well?) as I do insist on nothing but the best. Not b/c they rate it but b/c they can afford it. I'm sure skiing is no different.

Haiku Housing Blues Whine:

Olga make big dough.
Big Bulgarian realtor.
Me, poor MBA.

I should have sold shit-
boxes for a living, not
try to be legit.

In debt for college,
Hippy-ass professors laugh,
For they have tenure.

Burn rate of housing,
Big national scandal. I
Write check for school loan.

I whine because I
Earned it and played by the rules.
Done got me no where.

Should have been just like
Olga: dumb, but hawking real-
estate. Could have been rich.

Now I make twelve an
Hour, as a telemarket-
ing, cheap phone biatch.

God almighty, how
Can anyone endure this
Much less survive it?

I curse your stupid
McMansions, and pray for the
Day justice prevails.

See the groundhog smile,
With life so simple and free.
Wish I was one, too!

Maybe I'll go on
Welfare. At least I'd have some
Free Medical care .

Perhaps another
Big depression shall arise,
Wash it all away.

I crack open a
Dos Equis, and dream of life
When it was normal.

I see people scram-
Bling, like birdies for a
Nest: they've failed the test.

West of the Missis-
Sippi, Giuseppie bakes a
Zippy little pie.

Should have been him,
The happy little baker
From north Italy.

Ho hum, I'm on Dos
Equis one-hundred and one.
I sit here drunk...blitzed!

Perhaps people can retire on old barges in international waters just outside a fourth world country. Workers can be ferried to “sponge bath” retirees. These barges will be earthquake-proof and is save against rising sea level due to global warming.

Not a bad idea, but why stop with retirement barges? How about "Home-roids" or “X-blimps”. They can all be staffed with Cryo-boomer zombie Wal-Mart greeters!

Do you like Chinese food? Are you too poor to retire to Arizona or Florida? Afraid of hurricanes and earthquakes? Like abusing low wage domestic workers? Too poor to own your own car?

Perhaps we should help those who are too poor to retire period. How about a "work-vacation" in Arizona or Florida during which they will learn important skills such as sponge-bathing retirees and decontaminating bathing facilities.

I’m only familiar with China, but maybe we can sell these folks some land the Sahara too.

How about some virtual land in some up-and-coming role-playing Xbox games?

SQT Says:

"I wonder how many of the ultra-extravagant parties have been funded by home equity?"

Most of the ultra-extravagant/over the top Bay Area kids birthday parties have been paid for in cash since both mom and dad earn a few Ha Has per year.

An ex girlfriend described one party for a three year old (that in addition to the clown, the pony and the jumpy room was catered by Paula LeDuc, had tons of Joseph Schmidt truffles and two bars with bartenders making mimosas with Dom Perignon and pouring Silver Oak Cab and Far Niente Chardonnay) as a "grotesque display of wealth"…

When I was managing property in the East Bay I often had Hispanic families who borrowed money and spent way more than they could afford on big "Quinceanera" (15th Birthday) parties...

DinOR,

You're right about the skiing. The funniest sight on the mountain is a gear-head from the city with high-end skis that are too long for him, boots that are too stiff (usually racing boots), and some Marmot or similar outfit that was designed to withstand an assault on Mt. Everest. He's invariably in a squat-dump position straight-lining down a black diamond run he has no business being on. Usually a prelude to a total yard sale.

SFWoman Says:

This is why the knowledge of foreign languages is becoming increasingly important. That is if we aren’t the ones scrubbing the backs of people from other countries…

How do you say, "don't forget to scrub between the fat folds" in Spanish or Chinese?

Here's an interesting question (IMO): How many housing bears do you think are objectivist and/or libertarian in political/philosophical leaning? I wonder if there's a correlation, since I think what goads most of us is the lemming/sheeple/no independent thinking mindset driving this thing.

Gross display of wealth yes, but at least the food would have been edible. I think that party clearly falls into the “he’ll be too young to remember, we might as well enjoy ourselves” catagory.

Perhaps I should throw a big birthday party for our cat. How about toro, awabi, and uni? The cat will not enjoy the food but I will finish it. :)

Here’s an interesting question (IMO): How many housing bears do you think are objectivist and/or libertarian in political/philosophical leaning?

Perhaps objectivist. Many bears are liberals though.

Your cat must be wimpy. My cat would eat that before you could even get out your chopsticks.

My cats somehow do not enjoy seafood too much.

I haven’t found a true political home. I am fiscally conservative, fairly socially liberal, but am disgusted by not requiring people to assume responsibility for themselves but still allowing them the benefits of our society. Is there a political group out there for me?

SFWoman,

You are in a similar category as myself. I guess you could call us "Classical Libertarian", or "Minarchists". See The Libertarianism-Morality Conundrum thread).

PS,

I knew where Joe Schmoe was going and believe it or not this blog is one of the few places you can actually discuss it. Many people get quite offended when you mention these types of issues. It's kind of like "Can't you see, I've pulled my hair out and pulled out all the stops to make this a party a smash and you're trying to ruin it with your kill joy attitude"?

A lot of bears are liberals, it is true. However, this is partially due to the red state/blue state divide. Appreciation in places like Texas and Georgia has been mostly modest and steady, and affordability is not a problem, so people there have good reason to be bullish on housing.

The red states, with the noted exceptions of AZ, FL, NV and CO (the latter two are not that red, but they did go for Bush in 2004) , have mostly escaped the housing bubble. In TX you can get a brand new 1800 sq ft middle class home from KB for $95,000. Heck, even unskilled workers can afford a home; there are plenty of $55,000 SFH's in middle class neghborhoods there.

Moreover, a lot of conservatives are Baby Boomers. While the Boomers are mostly characterized by their libreralism, there are many millions of conservatiives in their 40's and 50's who have no understanding of what market conditions are like today. They are bullish on housing because their house has always gone up in value. In this way, your conservatives in Simi Valley are no different from the libs in Montecito, both are equally clueless. Furthermore, they tend to explain away complaints about prices as "whining," advising younger people to "brown-bag it" for a while in order to save up a down payment.

Some conservatives are fully aware of the housing bubble and attribute it to the decline of the blue states' social and economic policies. They are always pointing out that the blue states have been losing population for years, while red states have been growing rapidly, etc. I sometimes find myself in this camp, but I make a real effort not to politicize every economic tend that comes along, so I tend to think that the bubble is just a fact of life that can't really be blamed on either party.

Some conservatives are fully aware of the housing bubble and attribute it to the decline of the blue states’ social and economic policies.

I also fall into this camp, although t think these are only catalysts. Greed and fear is the main driving force of all bubbles.

Furthermore, they tend to explain away complaints about prices as “whining,” advising younger people to “brown-bag it” for a while in order to save up a down payment.

Just say, "price is not the concern, value is" and they will go away.