patrick.net

""RayAmericaMarch 10th, 2010 at 3:21 pm | top | quote | share on Facebook | email this | impolite
Not according to Nancy Pelosi. We need it quick like and she’ll tell us what’s in the bill after they pass it. LOL""

I guess that would be like hank paulsen saying the world is going to end!!...if the gov doesnt bailout wallst RIGHT NOW, while few knew what that meant....til after they passed it.
Then there is the ole wmd thingy.

""RayAmerica on Tue, Mar 2nd, 2010 at 9:07 am
Interesting too that our politicians, so intent on ramming through National Healthcare, will be exempt from the very system they are trying to force on us, just as they are exempt from Social Security participation. And yet, we have people that “trust” our government and seemingly refuse to hold them accountable to the same set of laws, standards and restrictions they force on us. WHY IS THAT ???""

So, this part would liken to war and military service, wouldnt it....you know, that ole "trust" the gov toknow when to "do" war and
sacrifice young lives while being "exempt" from serving.
Oh!, You can "trust" them for that....cant....You.
You, also too....live in that cherry-pickin' Tbagrz haze where what is good for You is all that matters.
btw....who plowed your snow.
...yes, yes, I know...Im sure it was....You-the-plumber. LOL.

a most excellant point DocNomo

tatupu70 says

I don’t agree. It is not a middle/transition stage at all.

Well, in Marx's world it was (Socialism = state owned, Communism = nobody owned).

However, that was just what Marx wanted. There's no fundamental law of nature that says that socialism leads to communism. Most credible political scientists today argue that communism simply can't work, because it's just another name for anarchy.

I'm just ignoring the rest of the thread because this discussion is stupid. These people don't know what they're talking about, and, thankfully, their anarcho masturbation fantasies will never come to fruition anyway.

tatupu70 says

I think that calling a capitalistic government

If by capitalistic government you mean a government that is run by corporations, and uses government and the FED to privatize profits and socialize losses then perhaps you could call this a capitalist government. But a more honest description of the US government would be Corporatism or "Public/Private Partnership" in newspeak.

AdHominem says

Tatu, did you understand the article when it said regulation (ie reform) is newspeak. Rather than calling it socialism liberals want to call it “solutions for the free market”, when in reality it is socialism with a fancy name like “reform” or “regulation”, or “pay czar” etc…

I understand what the article is saying, but it's incorrect. Unfortunately, you can't believe everything you read on the interwebs.

AdHominem says

If by capitalistic government you mean a government that is run by corporations, and uses government and the FED to privatize profits and socialize losses then perhaps you could call this a capitalist government. But a more honest description of the US government would be Corporatism or “Public/Private Partnership” in newspeak.

I agree that our government has some big problems. And too much corporate lobbying and "donations" is very high on the list. Let's get some real campaign finance reform and fix it!

"Liberal Delusions About Freedom"

But, capitalist anarchy, thats jes fine, eh.
...wheres the emotey for "tool".

The government didnt fail....wallst did.

gnomograph says

One of the hallmarks

perhaps you will like this excerpt better?

" Take a look at this URL: http://www.ssa.gov/history/ottob.html. There you will see an engraving. It is not an engraving of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, or any of the Founding Fathers. Instead it is an engraving of Otto von Bismarck, who served as chancellor of Germany from 1862 to 1890.

You may have noticed that the URL has the letters “ssa.gov” in it. That is the Internet domain name for the U.S. Social Security Administration.

You might then ask, What in the world is the U.S. government doing glorifying a chancellor of Germany rather than America’s Founding Fathers? "

AdHominem says

gnomograph says

One of the hallmarks

perhaps you will like this excerpt better?
” Take a look at this URL: http://www.ssa.gov/history/ottob.html. There you will see an engraving. It is not an engraving of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, or any of the Founding Fathers. Instead it is an engraving of Otto von Bismarck, who served as chancellor of Germany from 1862 to 1890.
You may have noticed that the URL has the letters “ssa.gov” in it. That is the Internet domain name for the U.S. Social Security Administration.
You might then ask, What in the world is the U.S. government doing glorifying a chancellor of Germany rather than America’s Founding Fathers? “

Or then again, he might not. I already bet on Nomo's response & lost - so I'm gonna sit this one out. BTW, I'm referring to the latter supposition rather than the earlier question.

But thanks for letting me play.

thanks ellie we have some lovely parting gifts for you. A year's subscription to the cheese of the month club and a case of Hiney whine.

AdHominem says

What in the world is the U.S. government doing glorifying a chancellor of Germany rather than America’s Founding Fathers? “

Because the founding fathers lived in a largely agrarian society on the edge of an entire f---ing continent, full of material riches, relatively free for the taking? Ie a society that no longer exists? And that's not even considering the indentured servitude of the north and the outright chattel slavery of the south.

The economic history of the 19th century is endlessly fascinating to me, and its lessons are subtle but clear.

Adam Smith, David Ricardo, John Stuart Mill, and Henry George are my polestars in understanding the dynamics of this age.

Europe, being more densely settled, hit their socioeconomic wall first, in 1848. That year scared the crap out of everyone. The rise of the collectivists prompted a reaction, and Bismarck, being the Mensch that he was, decided to steal some of their thunder and drink the Commie's milkshake.

HISTORY QUIZ

In 1800, Thomas Jefferson won the Presidency with how many votes?

A 400,000
B 4,000,000
C 10,000,000
D 40,000,000

waterbaby says

“Liberal Delusions About Freedom”

But, capitalist anarchy, thats jes fine, eh.

…wheres the emotey for “tool”.
The government didnt fail….wallst did.

judging by the number of former and probably future Goldman employees in high positions at the Treasury over the years... I would say Wall Street runs our Government pretty well (at least according to Goldman's point of view)

Turbo Tax Tim Geithner has done pretty good by them as well, especially as head of the NY FED leading up to the crisis in 2008.

Based on what do you believe in the "integrity" of the press?

In this case, tho, they printed a story in which they had a financial interest. There appears to be no other reason to write it - it certainly isn't "news." It did advertise the book the guy wrote. So I have a problem with it. Paralithodes says

Based on what do you believe in the “integrity” of the press?

Based on idealism. How dumb of me.

But idealism based on what? As Nomo points out, the press operates under free market principles, and additionally, the "mainstream media" consists primarily of for-profit corporations.

a href="/post/28942#comment-671404">Paralithodes says

But idealism based on what?

http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp According to the code of ethics for journalists, they should: — Distinguish news from advertising and shun hybrids that blur the lines between the two. — Avoid misleading re-enactments or staged news events. —Avoid conflicts of interest, real or perceived. I know there are worse things happening in the world - to most this is a non-issue. However, the paper has a financial interest in the guy's book, as they published it and sell it in their lobby. It's not news, it's a shameless advertisement disguised as a story. Had the story been plagarized, it would be an abomination to journalism. But to me this is just as bad.

I'm still giving you kudos for laying out your ideas in a very well thought out process. You even made it clear that you didn't have a huge chance of success, but the potential payout was making the investment worth while.

Gold is probably stuck where it's at because countries are now dealing with essentially 1 problem at a time. The EU had to deal with Greece and Greece appears to have made the decisions necessary, other countries have more or less backed them. They might not be 100% backing them, but they've indicated that they're making a move in the right direction. Nothing major on the jobs front. Nothing major on the housing front. Oil is relatively stable again. The real fire that was driving people to buy gold seems to have died down, and probably reducing the chances of a full bubble forming like you had predicted.

I don't see gold falling below $1000 ever again but I have on clue how long it takes to break out no the upside and go parabolic.

I see the medium-term structured differently.

We need to raise taxes. That's deflationary if you pay taxes.
We need to cut government spending. That's deflationary if you're someone receiving some of the $6.5T in annual government spending.
Oil supplies will continue to be constrained vs global demand -- that's deflationary if you buy petroleum products.
Interest rates can't get any lower (?). Deflationary if true!

The money's already been done created, 1995-2009. It is in the process of being moved from weaker to stronger hands.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MZM?cid=30

We'll see $2000 gold right around when Walmart's paying $20/hr.

^ honest abe can only express himself in a series of cliches apparently.

also, honest abe clearly doesn't understand anything about economics in general or land economics in particular.

"Its the same thing that caused house prices, over time, to increase"

Monetary inflation has ZERO to do with land values. Rents and land values respond to producer surplus of the wage earning class, moderated by their access to credit.

Productivity goes up? Assuming labor sees a piece of this increased wealth (not a given) rents and home prices will go up.

Spouses join the workforce? Household income goes up, and rents and home prices will also go up.

Interest rates go down? Household buying power goes up, and rents and home prices go up. (see the chart)

50% down becomes 20% down becomes 5% down becomes 0% down becomes -4% down? Home prices go up.

Borrowers qualified on the temporary teaser rates not the back-end actual rates? Buying power goes up, home prices go up.

Tax cuts increase household aftertax income by hundreds of dollars a month? Buying power goes up, home prices go up.

I could go on but I think anyone with a brain gets the point. None of these factors has ANYTHING to do with the metallic backing of money.

Troy, everything you said is correct, with two exceptions: (1) I believe my understanding of economics is sound and (2) monetary inflation has EVERYTHING to do with the cost of EVERYTHING. Inflation can not pick and choose what it will effect and what it won't. It either exists or it doesn't (hint: it exists).

Honest Abe says

Inflation can not pick and choose what it will effect and what it won’t. It either exists or it doesn’t (hint: it exists).

As I said about a month ago, housing inflation has historically existed with both fiat money and with fully convertible money. The core problem is credit (and credit-worth borrowers), not money supply. And credit isn't always a problem, credit can either fuel capital creation (good!) or plain consumption (bad!), which is why we attempt to regulate credit through government oversight of the private credit markets.

Historically, the United States was on the gold standard from 1900-1932, fat lot of good it did preventing real estate bubbles in LA and Florida.

Expanding money supply hasn't prevented the Japanese real estate market from pancaking since 1990, either. Japanese M1 has expanded almost 4X since then, yet prices are down 50% or more, and would be done even more except 10yr mortgage interest rates are 2%.

Economies are somewhat subtle processes. Money supply is tied to turnover, trade flows, dark pools, sovereign wealth funds.

But inflation is also pretty simple, too. If you can ask your boss for a COLA, and get it, we've got "inflation expectations" and the economy will be off to the races in a wage-price spiral, like what we saw in the 1970s and late 1990s.

Without more earning power -- takehome pay -- in J6P's grubby little hands, there can BE no total price inflation -- just reallocation of inflation in things we need and deflation in things we want.

This is a brutal process as prices readjust to what the buyers are ready and willing to pay. I just bought 3 2L of Mountain Dew from Safeway for 88c each. That, my friend, is not inflation.

Troy says

Expanding money supply hasn’t prevented the Japanese real estate market from pancaking since 1990, either. Japanese M1 has expanded almost 4X since then, yet prices are down 50% or more, and would be done even more except 10yr mortgage interest rates are 2%.

I think this is the point where gold-bugs / inflationists (they tend to be the same people), put their fingers in their ears and go la, la, la, la.

Economic theory from 100 years ago that has been thoroughly debunked is coming in to fashion among some groups. Blame it on the internet I guess.

I personally think it is understandable. In finance and economics "common sense" is often dead wrong since it's not very intuitive. Intuition tells us that money is a "thing", some sort of commodity. But it is unlike any other "thing" in that it cannot exist without it's opposite, anti-money (debt). There is no such thing as "anti-gold", or anti-anything-else in the real tangible world, so the human mind does not naturally take to the concept.

Let's not forget, as I noted elsewhere, the Fed has abandoned QE (at least for now). When you shut down the printing presses, I cannot imagine that not having an effect on the price of gold. We'll see how long Ben can tow the line...

MarkInSF says

Troy says

Expanding money supply hasn’t prevented the Japanese real estate market from pancaking since 1990, either. Japanese M1 has expanded almost 4X since then, yet prices are down 50% or more, and would be done even more except 10yr mortgage interest rates are 2%.

I think this is the point where gold-bugs / inflationists (they tend to be the same people), put their fingers in their ears and go la, la, la, la.
Economic theory from 100 years ago that has been thoroughly debunked is coming in to fashion among some groups. Blame it on the internet I guess.
I personally think it is understandable. In finance and economics “common sense” is often dead wrong since it’s not very intuitive. Intuition tells us that money is a “thing”, some sort of commodity. But it is unlike any other “thing” in that it cannot exist without it’s opposite, anti-money (debt). There is no such thing as “anti-gold”, or anti-anything-else in the real tangible world, so the human mind does not naturally take to the concept.

Actually, the only economics that have really been debunked is pretty much the entire field of academic economics that has plagued our universities for about 70 years.

Nomo,

There you go again, interjecting reason. How dare you?

The problem with tea party and the grandstanding senators and the palins of the world is that they play on emotion and manipulation. Take palin for example - she denounced the bridge to nowhere and publicly refused to build it because it was bad PR.

Then she kept the money. Kind of like the girl you ask to marry you, find out she's been sleeping with all your friends, and you break off the engagement. But she keeps the ring.

elliemae says

The problem with tea party and the grandstanding senators and the palins of the world is that they play on emotion and manipulation.

Kind of like the White House playing on emotion and manipulation by purposefully misrepresenting Wellpoint's profits last quarter in order to incite anger against the insurance industry?

Even the above plays on emotion and manipulation. The "reality" answers of some of them are not at all reality, because they are yet to be seen. It is likely that both sides will be correct about some and incorrect on others. To call them all "reality" now is simply an emotional wish.

EBGuy says

Let’s not forget, as I noted elsewhere, the Fed has abandoned QE (at least for now). When you shut down the printing presses, I cannot imagine that not having an effect on the price of gold. We’ll see how long Ben can tow the line…

How do we know they have abandoned this?

Paralithodes says

Kind of like the White House playing on emotion and manipulation by purposefully misrepresenting Wellpoint’s profits last quarter in order to incite anger against the insurance industry?

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/177566.php

funny, I didn't see the white house quoted in this article. In fact, I looked on three pages of google searches before I got bored, with none of the results being white house oriented. In fact, the only mention of politics was by Wellpoint, bitching that they'd have to raise premiums if the democrats had their way... I guess that they'd have to raise thier rates in order to continue to rake in huge profits. But do tell us how the white house manipulated this information and the media chose not to report the facts.

I have assumed the thought that Tea Party followers are simply former Republicans who feel that Republicans are now too liberal.

we so called LIBERALS hit Bush so hard for the past 8 years mistakes that now Republicans, Libertarians and any other supporter of his is out for nothing but vengence. They dont care about societal improvements because they have everything they need.

We're past "Death Panels" Suga'.

Get ready for the Facist Death Squads, when they catch you, with out your Medi Corp Card. party papers, and Insurers logo branded on your ass.

yea, but it was different back then. 'cause she is so awesome, you know.

"The Tea Party is a golem created by Karl Rove that is haunting the Republican party."

Karl Rove is the lunatic fringe. The Tea Party Movement is the mainstream in that the Tea Party movement is all about the government being too big which is simply common sense, and labeling common sense "lunatic fringe" is a bit nutty in itself.

That's even better than Glen Beck telling his audience that he educated himself on the evils of Progressivism at the public library.

"It's Free!"

The tea party is a lot of old white people who are afraid of black people. It's obvious.

If the tea parties are such lunatic fringe nuts, why are they being discussed? It's like the democrats are not capable of ignoring idiocy. It's a typical straw man mentality. Ignore any reasonable criticism of the healthcare bill, while focusing on overblown stories of drunk rednecks spitting on random congress people. The tea parties are all a silly media hyped distraction.

The article in the OP is full of fluff, while lacking much content. Of the "myths" presented in the article, there are only a few that are worth discussing at all. (The rest is a convenient straw man.)

1) MYTH: The bill will cover illegal immigrants. --I am curious to see how this works out in practice. The truth is that illegal immigrants already get medical care via Medicare. If they don't change Medicare, it really doesn't matter that they won't be getting extra care from this program. Perhaps they have addressed this problem already, but I can't gain any relevant info from the article.

2) MYTH: Under the bill, there will be health care rationing and/or death panels. --Notice how the author didn't deny this point. She merely twisted the definition of rationing (doublespeak?) to claim that life will be better with government mandated rationing rather than limited access via costs. To be fair, when someone can't afford something, THAT IS NOT RATIONING. Rationing is when you CAN afford something, but you are not allowed to buy it. There is no system that can offer ever advanced medical services to every citizen. A capitalistic system makes the most use of limited resources via costs, whereas a government run system makes use of resources via some bureaucrat's god-complex.

It is an ugly fact in healthcare, that we can not afford to pay for every procedure for every patient. Furthermore, there has never been a system of healthcare that didn't offer a higher tier of service to the most powerful/rich/politically connected. There is no way to ration healthcare in a "fair" way, though the government will be forced to make these decisions. The method by which our government rations healthcare has been conveniently left out of every debate, simply by associating the concept with Tea Party types. The democrats are simply putting on blinders and plowing ahead. These are scary times.

3) MYTH: The bill will make health care costs skyrocket. --This is forecasting, but the smart money is on this prediction coming true. Notice again that RAND doesn't even mention how they come to the 2% increase figure. Most figures that I've seen are using "costs" synonymously with "government net costs minus funding." Therefore, the fact that all of our private insurance bills will increase (which they absolutely must), is probably not included in any of these calculations. All they "count" is the net effect on the national debt from the tax increase revenue minus the projected government expenditure of the program. Does anyone know the actual projected cost of this legislation? This would be akin to me saying my new Ferrari won't cost a thing, because I plan to downsize my mortgage, which will fully cover the monthly payments. It's doublespeak logic.

I don't mind reading an article that is shooting down ridiculous criticisms of a bill. I would also like to see honest critiques and valid complaints regarding the bill. What could they do better, what did it fix, what did it not fix, what will get better/worse, etc. Unfortunately this article reads like a Pelosi webpage. It adds nothing of interest to the discussion. This article reads like propaganda to me. At best, its an opinion piece.

Rand is a mostly government sponsored think tank, who's job it is to critique and effect public legislation (can you say conflict of interest?). The money they recieve from "private" sources comes mostly from huge corporations (including the health insurance business), and from a small group of the filthy rich individuals.

elliemae says

funny, I didn’t see the white house quoted in this article. In fact, I looked on three pages of google searches before I got bored, with none of the results being white house oriented. In fact, the only mention of politics was by Wellpoint, bitching that they’d have to raise premiums if the democrats had their way… I guess that they’d have to raise thier rates in order to continue to rake in huge profits. But do tell us how the white house manipulated this information and the media chose not to report the facts.

Even funnier, I found direct White House references to Wellpoint in the second entry on the very first page of a Google search, simply using "White House Wellpoint" as the search term.
"http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/03/11/when-health-insurance-companies-attack

Here alone, the White House reports: "In recent weeks, you’ve probably heard a lot about WellPoint, the big insurance company that reported earning $2.7 billion in one quarter, and then promptly raised rates on some customers in California by up to 39 percent. " This is aside from other public statements by the White House and by KS directly about Wellpoint, but this example will do fine.

What the White House doesn't tell you is that their reference to "$2.7 billion in one quarter" was literally just in one quarter, and that $2.2 billion of that was due specifically to the sale of a business unit. Their regular profit from operations in that "one quarter" was more in the $500M range, similar to their normal quarterly profits, and consistent with their profit margin of between 2-5%, across its quarterly profit margins across the last several years.

And this is part of the problem with the whole debate. Many conservatives, such as me, don't actually want to defend insurance companies. I see them as a huge part of the problem, but not for the over-simplified - to the point of being practically untrue -, non-"nuanced" explanation that it is all about their wish to "rake in huge profits." If that were in fact the case, then the Administration could simply tell the untarnished truth that does not depend on financial/accounting ignorance on the part of most of the population. Wellpoint, from a financial performance standpoint, does NOT stand out among the large insurance companies, which do not "rake in huge profits." But I guess it is just very easy to pick a target (the insurance companies in general and Wellpoint specifically) and make it THE scapegoat for the entire issue. Plenty of folks will fall for the propaganda and jump right on the bandwagon.