patrick.net

"Please explain why. - Thunderlips11"

I already have. Just because you don't like the answers and what they mean doesn't mean that I haven't answered the question.

"Except they only owned 7% of the tiny pre-Independence Israel’s land and were only 11% of the population. Even in the early 40s they barely touched 15% of the population after a great deal of illegal immigration. - Thunderlips11"

And the point of this argument is? You still don't understand that the real problem is with foreign powers dividing the land as they saw fit. Blame the UN and the British. That's where the blame lies.

""During the Crusades local Jews fought with local Arabs against the Crusaders. They weren’t immigrants. That is a fact." - Simcha
"Again, nobody is denying they was an ultrareligous minority, and almost all of them lived inside Jerusalem, and there was probably always a tiny minority of Jews, but vastly outnumbered by Arabs. - Thunderlips11""

Maybe they were an ultrareligious minority. I don't know how religious these Jews who were already residing in their own homeland for millenia were. The fact remains that there have been Jews in that area for millenia. And yes, so what if they were vastly outnumbered? They were originally beaten into submission and most fled in ancient times. Some hardy souls remained even through the persecutions.

"A few ten thousand that were always there yes, a tiny minority. Millions? That is the result of immigration. - Thunderlips11"

I wasn't ever arguing this point. And immigration has always been part of the human experience. What's your point?

"And I’m sure you know enough of the History of Israel to know about the Exodus and the huge numbers of immigrants that poured in since Hertzl and really after WW2. I think you’re deliberately misleading people by overstating the pre 1900 population of Israel to make it sound like a national liberation... - Thunderlips11"

1. I'm not going to argue about any other ethnic group and their struggles. I'm going to stick to this topic in this thread.

2. I was the one who brought in the number of 1000 Jewish families in Israel being all there were before immigration from Europe. So I don't know where you get this impression.

"So if an ethnic group has a long written and oral tradition about returning to another land, we have to carve out a territory for them there, no matter how many millenium have passed? - Thunderlips11"

Why not? Many nations have been created in the world with less justification than that.

"Born Jewish. Bar-Mitzvahed on Massadah. I sang a part of the Torah, for a year a nice Conservative Jew from Brooklyn would drive out to Long Island where I grew up and help me learn it. In his beat up 1970s era Oldsmobile, right out of the stereotype book...

You do not have to be a Zionist to be a Jew. You’d be surprised at how many hundreds of thousands of Jews - not just secular Jews like me but even Hasidic Jews - are anti-Zionist. - Thunderlips11"

1. Just because you're a Jew doesn't mean that you aren't anti-semitic. My Great Uncle was 100% Jewish and hated Jews, blacks, Mexicans, etc.

2. No you don't have to be a Zionist to be a Jew. And anti-Zionists don't get to redefine Zionism.

3. Hassidic Jews are anti-Zionist because they believe that Jews shouldn't return to Eretz Yisrael until Moshiach comes. And most Orthodox Jews believe that no Jew should go to the Temple Mount because if you aren't a Kohen or Levi you could be walking into the Holy of Holies and be swallowed up by the Earth. They are anti-Zionist for purely religious reasons, not for moral reasons, and they certainly don't hate Zionists.

"What’s funny about living in America, is that one can read points like mine in Haaretz everyday, one of the biggest Israeli daily newspapers. Here it is considered heresy and evil. - Thunderlips11"

No, I don't consider it heresy or evil. That's one of the wonderful things about Israel, freedom of expression and freedom of the press. Too bad the Arabs don't have that freedom in any country. You'll never see anything negative being written in newspapers in Arab countries about Hamas or Hezbollah. That doesn't mean that they haven't committed atrocities and that they don't hold their own people hostage. And it doesn't mean that there aren't any Arabs who are angry at both Hamas and Hezbollah. It just means that their voices can't be heard.

"Israel doesn’t have long to last. - Thunderlips11"

That's an opinion. It's fine to have. Israel has always lived on the brink of destruction since its very inception.

"The productive Israelis leave the county for New York and London, leaving only the rabid Likudites to keep upping the ante. - Thunderlips11"

I'm not sure that this is universally true. I do know that there is a large exodus of talented young people who are leaving. There are also new immigrants who have talent who come to Israel and stay. And these newer immigrants aren't necessarily Likudites.

"It’s too bad Israelis can’t reach out and establish a real democracy by inviting all the Arabs into Palestine, instead of keeping them in Ghettos. - Thunderlips11"

1. I agree that Israel would be best served by reaching out to Arabs.

2. It's too bad the Palestinian Arabs can't reach out to the Israelis and establish a real democracy by inviting all Israeli Jews to live along side of them in peace in a unified country.

3. It isn't the Israelis who keep the Palestinian Arabs in Ghettos. I went to Jordan and Egypt this year and I saw first hand a refugee camp in Jordan north of Amman where Palestinian Arabs are forced to live by the Jordanians. This situation is still going on in Lebanon too. The Palestinan Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank who live in refugee camps are forced to live there by their fellow Palestinian Arabs for the same reason that the Jordanians and Lebanese force Palestinian Arabs to live in refugee camps, to make a political point. Palestinian Arab refugees in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt are denied citizenship and forced to live separately to make a political point. There are no refugee camps in Israel proper. You can try to argue that Gaza and the West Bank are ghettos, but that's a very simplistic point of view that isn't based on facts.

Zionism does not equal Judaism. So your title is not very intelligent. It shows a political point of view that is anti-Zionist without understanding what Zionism is. Zionism isn't racist as many on the left claim. It's not about hate at all. It's about an idea that Israel is still our home and that we should be able to live there in peace physically. Zionism isn't anti-Arab or anti-anyone. The radical nationalists are one thing. Zionism is another.

It's also not just some romantic or nationalistic idea. It comes out of our spiritual tradition too. There is a belief that all Jews will be gathered to Jerusalem (the physical Jerusalem) when the Messiah comes. I'm sure you know that. Not all Jews believe it. However, the belief exists.

By the way, I don't consider myself a Zionist because I've never even been to Israel. The closest I've been is Jordan and Egypt. And I'm not willing to make Aliyah because I'm an American Jew and enjoy being an American. The USA is my physical home, not Israel. The concept of Israel is my spiritual home. I don't believe that Israel is a saintly country that does no wrong as many on the right seem to think.

I'm a realist. I see that both sides have blood on their hands. Both peoples have a right to be there. There are millions of Israeli Jews who were born and raised in Israel. It's too late to try to deport them. Where would they go? Their home is Israel simply because they were born there. Just like my home is the USA, because I was born here. As far as I'm concerned Palestinian Arabs should have the right to live where ever they want in peace just as Israeli Jews have the same right.

I don't forget that the Palestinian Arabs committed and continue to commit horrible atrocities against Israeli Jews. I don't forget that Israeli Jews committed and continue to commit horrible atrocities against Palestinian Arabs. Therefore, as a realist, I don't see both peoples embracing a "one state solution" any time soon. They're too bitter and angry at one another for good reasons. In my opinion the more realistic solution for now is to have a "two state solution." Maybe down the road both states may finally realize that they need each other. Right now, they just can't see past their mistrust, anger, and hate of one another.

And as far as "What is a Jew?" goes, you have illustrated my point beautifully. We Jews can't even agree on what a Jew is and who is a Jew. It's encoded in our DNA. "Two Jews, three opinions." ;)

thunderlips11 says

I believe he holds the all-time record for vacations

It's not a vacation if you take the work with you. Here's Bush reviewing the daily briefing memo entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US".

bad luck with that one. Then again, maybe not. Not stopping the attacks let him run a trillion-dollar (!) unnecessary war past/through Congress.

"I think the term “follower” is not correct for most right-wingers, such as myself. That term and philos is more of a left-winger application of life, in my experience."

my best guess is you mean this part (?)

Maybe the words in the memo had too many syllables.

thunderlips11 says

Yes, you’re right. Sykes-Picot was a disaster, the Mid East was better under the Ottomans. They treated the Jews well also, Jews always held high offices under the Turks. Or Imagine if King Hussein of Jordan and not the House of Saud were still the rulers of Mecca, with Queen Nouri, how different and more advanced socially/politically the Middle East would be.

I agree. I found that Jordanians were very friendly and most were quite cosmopolitan. My friend who is Jordanian and lives in Amman told me that there are radical elements who live in Jordan close to the Saudi border who fly the Saudi flag instead of the Jordanian flag. She's half Palistinian Arab. Her mother is Jordanian and is a high ranking official in the government. Her father is a professor at a university. She and I went to school together here in the Bay Area. I believe that if the Middle East would have been left to sort itself out the Middle East would have been in much better shape.

Simchaland, thank you for that. I loathe getting into arguments about Israel, I get too hyperdefensive and emotional about it, and knowing so should have never began it.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I get emotional about arguments about Israel. I just get floored when people look at the situation as one side is good and the other side is bad. Here in the Bay Area it's the Palestinian Arabs who are seen as the saintly victims and the Israelis are seen as horrible oppressive colonizers who eat Arab babies for breakfast. OK, I exaggerate, but still it can be quite intense. There's always some protest going on somewhere in the Bay Area concerning the Palestinians and the Israelis. The larger crowd is always with the Palestinians. Back in Chicago where I'm from, it's the opposite. I wish more people could see a middle ground.

My wife is Cuban, she visited my parents and relatives with me a year ago. It was basically a 3-hour debate over everything from Dunkin vs. Starbucks to Why Don’t We move to Florida or Visit More Often to Greenspan Was/Wasn’t Responsible for the Crisis. Nothing but raised voices over coffee cake. She said “Now I see where it comes from”

Wow! Your kids must really be something in a debate! LOL! All of that passion combined with rapid repartee must be something to witness. :)

Simchaland, my apologies on assuming that you were that way. From your other posts, I should have realized not to insult your intelligence by thinking you were narrowminded on ANY subject.

It's OK. I apologize for assuming that you were narrowminded too. I should have realized that you too would be more well-rounded than that. :)

I apologize for any hard feelings or nastygrams.
Now back to the other regularly scheduled debates.

The same goes for me. Let's get back to it. :)

Bap33 says

“I think the term “follower” is not correct for most right-wingers, such as myself. That term and philos is more of a left-winger application of life, in my experience.”
my best guess is you mean this part (?)

Yes, that would be the same part for which I would have an objection too.

The endgame for the right is fascism. Fascism is all about following the leader, without question.

The endgame for the left is communism. Communism is about following the crowd, without question.

The way I see it, the moderates are the ones who rarely follow, especially moderate libertarians.

elliemae says

Maybe the words in the memo had too many syllables.

Maybe there were too many darn letters and it wasn't written in Texan.

Mavbe the title of the memo should have been, "Bin Laden's Fixin' to Blow Up Stuff in America Y'all."

Difference between a redneck story & a fairy tale:

A fairy tale starts out, "Once upon a time..."

and a redneck story starts out:

"Ya'll ain't gonna believe this shit..."

that makes sense ... I guess I'm more libertarian than conservative (?). But, wait, I'm a leader ... that means followers just happen ... lol ... now what?

I tend to see "right" as folks that demand personal responsibility, and agree with traditional right and wrong. I see "left" as accepting irresposible behavior at the expense of the group, and a distaste for absolute right and wrong (moral code I guess?). The dope smoking shows the left to be followers!! lol. Just kiddin.

Seriously ... as I said, my life experience shaped my view, I have no rock solid arquements to support my gut feelings as produced from life. Please do not be frustrated by that.

Krugman's

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/20/opinion/20krugman.html?_r=1&src=tptw

is OK as far as it goes but does not explore what is involved in "rebuilding the economy".

How do you rebuild manufacturing when there are still 200 million Chinese able if not exactly willing to work for $300/mo?

The challenge as I see it is that we've got too many rentiers and not enough workers:

this is a chart lifted from the excellent http://illusionofprosperity.blogspot.com that shows the ratio of wage income to other income. "Down" means the re-serfication of the American worker.

The central feature of the Bush Economy was the $6T rise in household debt.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CMDEBT

Maybe half of that is pure bubble debt that isn't going to repaid without bona-fide WAGE inflation, but how can we get wage inflation when everything is going to hell? How can we turn the machines back on???

To rebuild the economy we've got to either declare economic war on the Chindians, or accept that they (all 2.5 billion of them) are going to "take our jobs" and decide to use the savings we get from their cheap labor to start pensioning people off here, or otherwise modify our labor arrangements (double vacation time, cut work week to 32hrs/week) to open up employment again.

The bottom line is not only J-O-B-S, but also GDP per imported energy, too. While energy costs are kinda marginal in the scheme of things, they are a definite drag on wealth-creation that is only going to get worse. We could kill two birds with one stone if we could get some directed R&D investment into the energy sector. That $1T we've spent on Iraq coulda done wonders here, alas. Thanks, Ralph.

Bap33 says

I see “left” as accepting irresposible behavior at the expense of the group, and a distaste for absolute right and wrong (moral code I guess?).

I see the "right" as feeling they know exactly what is right and wrong (because god told them - it must be nice) and therefore always so very good at judging others to be morally right or wrong or "responsible" or "irresponsible."

This judging others is a function of the ego, not of the higher self or the "soul."

IT helps us to feel superior,... as transparent as that sometimes may be. (e.g., see Abe and his incessant need to put down liberal thought as a "mental disorder." one only need to consider the ego to understand where this is coming from).

why not call them a heathen sinner?

or maybe call those who disagree with you an infidel.

i don't know, what are some other ways that i can consider people inferior to me?

That's what my poor ego needs

if deflation is such a problem why not just have the treasury print dollars and eliminate income taxes completely for everyone making under 30,000, dollars a year, seems like a great plan, business will pay less on thier labor in taxes, people will keep more disposable income and presumably spend it, and the exta dollars in actual circulation as opposed to in bank vaults will fight deflation.. seems like a no brainier to me, also i would raise the taxes on stock and interest income, to discourage bubbling the stock market and encourage spending

People making under $30,000 don't pay income taxes already.

Single-mother making $30,000, two sprogs, 15% bracket, less $5700 std deduction, less $10950 exempts, less $2000 Bush child tax credit, leaves Federal income tax burden at . . . $2.50.

Just printing dollars isn't going to solve things, since the people with pricing power -- energy producers, medical service providers, landlords -- already have all the money. In any inflation game, they will raise their fees to protect their real profits.

Raising taxes on enterprise isn't such a great idea either. The intelligent thing would be to tax the rentiers directly -- at the pump and on every rent check and medical service payment. 100% chance of that not even coming close to being on the table. Way too easily demagogued (since it's counter-intuitive who bears these taxes).

The core problem is that The System is structured to expect that debt line to keep rising. People think real GDP increases pull up the debt curve, but I think the opposite is the case, just a bubble economy on all sides and any real productivity gains have come from offshoring our plant.

simchaland says

The endgame for the right is fascism. Fascism is all about following the leader, without question.
The endgame for the left is communism. Communism is about following the crowd, without question.

Does this mean you are going to stop voting for the Dems? Awesome! To me, it looks like the endgame for both Dems and Repubs is fascism...but no need to nit pick.

Also, in practice, both of these ism's have been about following a supreme leader. See communist China, communist Russia, communist Cuba, fascist Germany, and fascist Italy--all run by a tiny group of very powerful people, not too much unlike the Dem and Repub vision.

Both Dems and Repubs want more power for the already bloated federal government. Allowing a small group to gain power over a large group is never good for the group. The small group in power will always spend vast resources convincing the masses that it is in their best interests to give the small group more power (both Dems and Repubs do this blatently). Using religion, favorable academians, employing "experts" who agree with you, etc. are all common tactics. In the end, it is always about a small group fleecing money and power from the producing public. Vote all Dems and Repubs out of office, in favor of those willing to uphold the constitutional limits of the federal government. Don't buy into the egalitarian smokescreen of the lefties or the god/free market lies of the Repubs.

marcus says

i don’t know, what are some other ways that i can consider people inferior to me?

If you read the classic, "How to win freinds and influence people", a main theme in the book is how human nature will instantly judge others to be inferior. Typically a person will judge others by their own virtues--a personal measuring stick. An artist might judge others by creativity, an athelete by physique, an academic by vocabulary, etc. Learning to suppress this divisive instinct, and then to see and compliment a unique and positive trait in every person is the book's theme.

Carnegie uses a dog as an example of how to get people to like you. Why are dogs universally loved by people? Because we have learned that a dog is always happy to see you, regardless of the situation. Nothing makes a dog's day more than a little attention from you.

marcus says

or maybe call those who disagree with you an infidel.
i don’t know, what are some other ways that i can consider people inferior to me?

well ... hmmm .... teabaggers ring a bell? homophobe? capitalist pig? The left minded folks are better at shaping public opinion through vocabulary -- at least, to me it seems anyways. That makes sense really, they are more vocal in general.

But, marcus, I don't disagree that you see things they way that you shared. Your life experiences, coupled with your personality, shaped your view just as mine have done to me. Agreed?

pkennedy says

welfare recipiets aren’t where you find the American dream. You find a basic existence. Go show us you’re hardworking and capable, start a business and stop complaining.

I think what you're trying to say is that welfare "recipiets" should get off welfare and start a business. I like the part too about "stop complaining." There's way too much complaining out there, particularly from the left.

Troy says

How do you rebuild manufacturing when there are still 200 million Chinese able if not exactly willing to work for $300/mo?

Amazingly, the Globalists were able to convince the majority of Americans that this would be possible. That was back when the politicians and the media were all proclaiming the same message: globalist trade will lift all people to higher lifestyles. Along with that lie came another equally effective lie, i.e. that the economy is "shifting from a manufacturing economy into a service economy." The fact that wealth is created when things are produced never seemed to cross their minds. These unfair, unequal trade policies have helped the Chinese "worker" albeit somewhat, etc. but have been devastating to the American worker. Now reality is setting in. Millions of manufacturing jobs have been eliminated forever. These workers are being told that they need to "retrain." Retrain for what? The middle class has been vehemently attacked by the elitists for several decades. Now, middle class Americans find themselves deep in debt, their retirement savings plans vastly diminished, many are upside down on their mortgages, and are either out of work or soon to be. Along with this, millions of illegal aliens are allowed to steal jobs from a workforce that has been crippled. When the state of Arizona steps in to do something about it, the Federal Government sides with the illegals against the citizens of Arizona. All of this didn't just "happen." IMO, this is a concerted effort by the elite of this world to crush the one remaining obstacle to one world government: the American middle class. I do not know one single person that is optimistic about the future of this country. Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”

CBOEtrader says

Question for the more bible/torah inclined folks here: Is Leviticus the only place that says homosexuality is wrong in the new/old testament?

Romans 1

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
….

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

RayAmerica says

I do not know one single person that is optimistic about the future of this country.

Life isn't all doom & gloom. You need to meet more people. There's such thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

elliemae says

Life isn’t all doom & gloom. You need to meet more people. There’s such thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

RayAmerica says

Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”

Bap33 says

But, marcus, I don’t disagree that you see things they way that you shared. Your life experiences, coupled with your personality, shaped your view just as mine have done to me. Agreed?

Sure, but as CBOeTrader said, one might "learn to suppress that instinct to feel superior." I think in my case I had to hit certain lows (not morally - but with career, and in other aspects of my life) before one day having the experience of seeing a bunch of poor strangers on a bus as my equals, no better no worse.

I didn't learn to suppress it, it just went away at some point, and not out of a desire to be liked. Just a sudden shift. Maybe a kind of growth experience "moment of clarity" that many or most people have from time to time. Sure I still judge people at times. I still have my insecurities, and my moments of arrogance.

Many of us, if we have had good fortune, be it through our gifts, or our family that we were lucky enough to have, or if it was from hard work alone and persistence and determination, then it is our success and even our wealth that maybe becomes the frame of reference or measuring stick that gives us a sense of superiority. I think religion, if taken the wrong way also can actually take someone away from humility rather than toward it.

So Bap, since there is less tendency to be rich on the democrat side, and less tendency to be fundamentalist Christian, I guess there is also more of a tendency to be what I would call, truly humble. You might say that it is our humility that makes us superior (just kidding).

elliemae says

Nomo contributes in a positive manner.

I like the comedic relief. Also, when he decides to actually discuss something his posts are interesting. Unfortunately, most of his posts revolve around the theme of calling a right leaning poster either an am talk radio junkie, or a whiner, or a racist.

Nomograph says

I’m saying the wasting your days complaining about welfare and food stamps is a losing proposition.

When a democrat type states that the republicans have destroyed our economy, and the opportunities for the working class are disappearing, that isn't a problem for you. When a right leaning type says the democratic policies are destroying the working class, you call him an AM talk radio junkie, or a racist, or a whiner. Your uneven response is not logical, and is boardering on trolling. If you don't like what Ray has to say, why don't you just ignore it?

CBOEtrader says

When a democrat type states that the republicans have destroyed our economy, and the opportunities for the working class are disappearing, that isn’t a problem for you. When a right leaning type says the democratic policies are destroying the working class, you call him an AM talk radio junkie, or a racist, or a whiner.

That is the Crux of the biggest fundamental problem facing America, and will hinder any and all efforts to pull out from our Romefate nosedive.

And the same could be said in reverse CBOE don't kid your self.

marcus says

Sure, but as CBOeTrader said, one might “learn to suppress that instinct to feel superior.” I think in my case I had to hit certain lows (not morally - but with career, and in other aspects of my life) before one day having the experience of seeing a bunch of poor strangers on a bus as my equals, no better no worse.

I have had the exact same experience. I remember the specific day when I realized how judgemental I had previously been towards homeless and poor people. I had to come an inch from bankruptcy to realize how much of a natural asshole I am. It helped me kick the MTV version of reality I was playing in my head as I chased my riches. Probably the most valuable lesson I have learned in life: your ego is a trap.

Now, I often feel bad for rich people, especially rich people who hit it big on their first lucky swing. They may never have that eureka moment. Many of them will be slaves to their own egos for their entire lives.

marcus says

Sure I still judge people at times.

The buddhists believe that this only goes away completely upon enlightenment, though I am not sure which is the cause and which the effect. They also believe it is a one in 10 million type of person that can get there.

I am definitely not blessed with natural spiritual talent, though I'm trying.

"Many of us, if we have had good fortune, be it through our gifts, or our family that we were lucky enough to have, or if it was from hard work alone and persistence and determination, then it is our success and even our wealth that maybe becomes the frame of reference or measuring stick that gives us a sense of superiority. I think religion, if taken the wrong way also can actually take someone away from humility rather than toward it."

A very wise statement!

Tenouncetrout says

That is the Crux of the biggest fundamental problem facing America, and will hinder any and all efforts to pull out from our Romefate nosedive.

This is exactly why I keep harping on this issue.

Tenouncetrout says

And the same could be said in reverse CBOE don’t kid your self.

Sure. It took the republicans 25 years to realize that their leadership was lying to them. I am hoping the democrats can figure this out much sooner in the power cycle.

I will also openly admit my mind is encumbered by logical fallacies, Pavlovian responses, and the like. Much like Nassim Taleb in his "Fooled by Randomness" book series, though, my personal theme is to try to recognize this fact, and work to overcome it as much as I can.

Here is a great article about a guy who attempts to live his life purely rationally--which is almost impossible.

http://www.esquire.com/features/rationality-project-1108

"My brain is deeply flawed. And no offense, but so is yours..."

Nomograph says

You’re just saying that because you are a whining racist AM talk radio junkie.

See, that's the Nomo we WANT around here. Why can't you be funny like that all the time? Does it come in waves?

Nomograph says

As someone who would best be described as libertarian, I look unfavorably upon almost all ideologists, right or left.

ROFL !!! Cite one single example when and where you have EVER been unfavorable to any position from the left. PLEASE …. I’d love to see it.

CBOEtrader says

“My brain is deeply flawed. And no offense, but so is yours…”

No! I'm just a Nut Sack with a half a brain.

RayAmerica says

ROFL !!! Cite one single example when and where you have EVER been unfavorable to any position from the left. PLEASE …. I’d love to see it.

You don't get it rayray. you seem to be trying, but you really don't get it. RayAmerica says

elliemae says

Life isn’t all doom & gloom. You need to meet more people. There’s such thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

RayAmerica says

Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”

As I said before, you need to meet more people.

ellie .... for a change, instead of making snide, personal remarks, etc., comment specifically on where I am wrong in the following:

RayAmerica says

Amazingly, the Globalists were able to convince the majority of Americans that this would be possible. That was back when the politicians and the media were all proclaiming the same message: globalist trade will lift all people to higher lifestyles. Along with that lie came another equally effective lie, i.e. that the economy is “shifting from a manufacturing economy into a service economy.” The fact that wealth is created when things are produced never seemed to cross their minds. These unfair, unequal trade policies have helped the Chinese “worker” albeit somewhat, etc. but have been devastating to the American worker. Now reality is setting in. Millions of manufacturing jobs have been eliminated forever. These workers are being told that they need to “retrain.” Retrain for what? The middle class has been vehemently attacked by the elitists for several decades. Now, middle class Americans find themselves deep in debt, their retirement savings plans vastly diminished, many are upside down on their mortgages, and are either out of work or soon to be. Along with this, millions of illegal aliens are allowed to steal jobs from a workforce that has been crippled. When the state of Arizona steps in to do something about it, the Federal Government sides with the illegals against the citizens of Arizona. All of this didn’t just “happen.” IMO, this is a concerted effort by the elite of this world to crush the one remaining obstacle to one world government: the American middle class. I do not know one single person that is optimistic about the future of this country. Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”

Nomograph says

Look at some of my responses to GaryA’s posts. You two are cut from opposite sides the same cloth.

Please be specific. What policy or program that is promulgated by the left that you specifically disagree with? Are there several, two, one? Please name them.

CBOEtrader says

I think religion, if taken the wrong way also can actually take someone away from humility rather than toward it.”

Great point. That is exactly what I've found in "religion" too. In my opinion, religion is not at all what God has in mind for man. Man created religion, not God.

Many people are religious about lots of things - school, work, brushing teeth, bar, dance clubs, Monday Night Football, NASCAR, and for some it is church attendance. God wants a relationship with man. Being religous and not having love in your heart will not work out well.

As far as being judgemental ... that is all anyone does. Even when you judge me to be (or not be) judgemental, you have been judgemental. There is nothing wrong with judgeing a persons actions or expressions. Those are used to shape ones opinion of a person. The judgement that is wrong is saying who is going to hell and who aint. You can judge only the outward things, but God judges the inward things - your heart and soul.

CBOEtrader says

“My brain is deeply flawed. And no offense, but so is yours…”

Sounds like the flip side of the popular 70s book, "I'm okay you're okay."

I'll read it.

RayAmerica says

All of this didn’t just “happen.” IMO, this is a concerted effort by the elite of this world to crush the one remaining obstacle to one world government: the American middle class.

I don't completely disagree with your observations, but I frame it a different way.

Could we have realistically claimed that capitalism and a free market economy are right, without advocating the same system for all countries ? That is globalization, which leads gradually to a leveling out income differences (bad for us) was inevitable, unless you advocate isolationist policies, which ultimately would have to led to bad outcomes anyway.

We can't have global capitalism, but only the good parts, that benefit us.

And a world government may be inevitable. Think of the savings in military expenditures. But we better get the US government together first.

marcus says

world government may be inevitable

Mo' money mo' problems I think.

Before world gov't would have to come integration of Canada, US, and Mexico. The retarded 30% of this country has been made deathly afraid of Canadian socialism, and of course we already have too many Mexicans here for their taste.

Just like there is a "Former Soviet Union" I think it's more likely there will be a "Former United States", with the Bible Belt being the Ukraine, the West/Midwest being Russia, and the East being the Baltic states and regaining sovereignty.

It is fairly typical that those that advocate fair and equal trade policies are labeled “isolationists.” This is unfortunate, but admittedly effective because once that label is applied, it closes all meaningful debate. I don’t know of a single, credible person that is advocating isolationism when it comes to trade. If you do, please name him or her.

As far as a world government is concerned, its creation and the policies enacted as a result would be anything but peaceful. Imagine the ultimate, mega, centralized government that mandates, by force, conformity across the board. Marx & Engels advocated this in their political philosophy, which of course was in fact implemented in practice by Lenin/Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Castro, etc. resulting in the elimination of millions of people by state certified murder. There is absolutely nothing in history to illustrate that any group of human beings, let alone elitists, yielding the unlimited power of a totalitarian centralized government would result in anything peaceful. Whenever totalitarianism has been implemented, no matter how seemingly well intentioned, the heads of the non conformists have always “sneezed in the basket," as further illustrated by the French Revolution.

Troy ... you might not be too far off in your Balkanization theory. A top Russian political scientist, not too far back, predicted the USA would in fact break up into regions along the lines of the Balkans. Not too long ago, such a theory would have been considered completely whacko. I don't think it's all that crazy of a thing to ponder now. Personally, I have never seen such stark division in this country. I think the case can be made that we are approaching the same fault lines that preceded the Civil War, possibly even worse.

RayAmerica says

ellie …. for a change, instead of making snide, personal remarks, etc., comment specifically on where I am wrong in the following...

elliemae says

RayAmerica says
elliemae says

Life isn’t all doom & gloom. You need to meet more people. There’s such thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

RayAmerica says

Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”
As I said before, you need to meet more people.

RayAmerica says

Something has made you bitter, maybe that’s it.

RayAmerica says

Are you trying to tell me that this is what “hope & change” is all about?

RayAmerica says

I honestly don’t know what point you were attempting to make. I’m sure there is one, but I couldn’t find it

RayAmerica says

I’m offering a spell check service for Patrick.net and am hoping to sign up my first client.

RayAmerica says

I like the part too about “stop complaining.” There’s way too much complaining out there, particularly from the left.

RayAmerica says

I do not know one single person that is optimistic about the future of this country.

RayAmerica says

Someone said to me recently: “in order to be an optimist today, you need to deny reality.”

My remarks aren't meant to be snide. Your message leads one to believe that the US is going to hell in a handbasket and that there's nothing to look forward to. You state your disdain with patnet readers with comments such as "Some of you people on your best day are way worse than Dr. Laura on her worst day, IMO. " Yet you're still here, so you must either respect us or have nowhere else to go.

Either way, it appears that there's no positivity in your life and you're waiting for the end of the world. I'd recommend taking a walk in the sunshine, sitting out under the stars, playing a game of touch football, dipping your toes into the ocean/pool/stream... Life is too short to be as miserable as you purport yourself to be. And I mean this all in the most constructive of ways. I work with the elderly, and those people who were miserable all their lives are merely better at it when they get old.

simchaland says

Rayray is just throwing out chum here folks. There’s nothing to see here. Move along…

Your chum, ellie.

elliemae says

You state your disdain with patnet readers with comments such as “Some of you people on your best day are way worse than Dr. Laura on her worst day, IMO. ”

I should have learned my lesson a long time ago. Humor is an orphan when it comes to you.