patrick.net

errc says

What exactly do you fear would have happened had the govt not bailed out all the bad actors?

Another Great Depression. 25% official unemployment. You get the picture.

GE is on record saying they were days away from not being able to make payroll.

errc says

What exactly do you fear would have happened had the govt not bailed out all the bad actors?

Complete financial collapse. All large financial institutions failing. Banks, Insurance companies, Health care providers, 10's of millions more unemployed.

And that would have all happened in the first week..........

Spoken like a man who gained his PhD at 22.

Mark D says

or maybe it's you who has difficulty grasping the basic rule of supply and demand

Oh I see, now you are jumping on supply and demand. No more bottom talk?

Bigsby says

Spoken like a man who gained his PhD at 22.

Thanks. Appreciate the compliment more when it comes from a man who had trouble getting out of high school at 22.

indigenous says

Bullshit. Read this thread. Or remain in complete ignorance

I read it. We do not know how things would have gone with no intervention. You have your theory, and I have my theory. I believe that you are completely wrong.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Bigsby says

Spoken like a man who gained his PhD at 22.

Thanks. Appreciate the compliment more when it comes from a man who had trouble getting out of high school at 22.

You're welcome. When are you going to graduate from your high school?

Bigsby says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Bigsby says

Spoken like a man who gained his PhD at 22.

Thanks. Appreciate the compliment more when it comes from a man who had trouble getting out of high school at 22.

You're welcome. When are you going to graduate from your high school?

Wow, great comeback. Never expected that one. Impressive.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Bigsby says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Bigsby says

Spoken like a man who gained his PhD at 22.

Thanks. Appreciate the compliment more when it comes from a man who had trouble getting out of high school at 22.

You're welcome. When are you going to graduate from your high school?

Wow, great comeback. Never expected that one. Impressive.

And that ladies and gentlemen is apparently the best a self-proclaimed genius can come up with.

Bigsby says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Bigsby says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Bigsby says

Spoken like a man who gained his PhD at 22.

Thanks. Appreciate the compliment more when it comes from a man who had trouble getting out of high school at 22.

You're welcome. When are you going to graduate from your high school?

Wow, great comeback. Never expected that one. Impressive.

And that ladies and gentlemen is apparently the best a self-proclaimed genius can come up with.

I think what you are displaying is a token Scientology gimmick. What, you are a full blown "clear"? Amazing, good for you. Can you levitate? Oh, only when no one is looking. Well, that is something...

Call it Crazy says

I believe he bought last year, so the talk of not reaching the bottom yet must have him really worried....

Ah, a buyer always think he bought it at the bottom - even 2006 buyers. :)

Genius level indeed.

A good article I just read on this subject:http://smaulgld.com/the-dark-side-of-rising-home-prices/

CaptainShuddup says

It could be the Mark Zuckerberg's of the world, are shifting software from productivity, to prying and spying on a honey trap of useless games and chatter.

It certainly isn't because Boomer MBAs have been outsourcing whenever possible since they first got into corporate leadership positions in the 1980s.

Call it Crazy says

I wonder who the real idiot is here?? Want to tell us more fairytale stories
about the recent snows???

LOL, I won't have to, remember that you supposedly live in New Jersey, and this same snow storm front is hitting you apparently as I type this. Again, SUPPOSEDLY.

..Another Winter Storm Batters the East Coast
By DAN GOOD and MAX GOLEMBO | Good Morning America – 3 hours ago
..http://gma.yahoo.com/another-snow-storm-batters-east-coast-091549330--abc-news-topstories.html?vp=1

Ice and snow is covering roadways, creating slick driving conditions and grounding thousands of flights. Anywhere from a few inches to a foot or more of snow is expected to fall on the East Coast.

By 4:30 a.m. the snow changed to sleet in New York City, with additional ice and sleet accumulation expected this morning due to low temperatures.

A winter storm warning was issued for Philadelphia, with the city experiencing rain and sleet. Rain fell across Washington, D.C., and Baltimore.

The storm could bring over a foot of snow to Albany, N.Y. and Hartford, Ct. Boston could also get hit hard, possibly as much as 10 inches. The storm should pull out of the Northeast late this afternoon.

All of the precipitation is impacting flight schedules. According to FlightAware.com, more than 2,000 nationwide flights have been delayed, with another 2,000 canceled by 7 a.m.

Some states declared states of emergency ahead of the storm, including New Jersey and Mississippi.

The snow was falling across the Midwest Tuesday, forcing schools, businesses and government buildings to close. Almost 13 inches fell in Topeka, Kansas, making it the third-biggest snowstorm in the city's history.

OOPS, none of the above ever happened, or is happening now, according to crazy.

At the risk of sounding paranoid, but in the past Housing policy has been dictated by Social policy.

When they wanted people to expand and have families they made housing cheap.

When they wanted to spread assets and get people to spend money they turned houses into piggy banks with equity loans.

When they wanted poor people to move into the suburbs they created sub-primes.

When they wanted to force urbanization and density, they built transit and fostered the creation of apartment buildings and apodments.

So...what do they want us to do next?

Call it Crazy says

And exactly what does this have to do with sales metrics of housing during
2013, like my original article stated above???

Call it
Crazy says

I wonder who the real idiot is here?? Want to tell us more fairytale stories
about the recent snows???

You lived up to your title of idiot!!

Yeah, who's the idiot? You asked/implied something, then I prove you wrong, and you pretend that you didn't read my response, AFTER you responded to it.

It's always the same ole shit with your type, where you think that if I tire of your annoying and redundant BS that I'll stop and you'll somehow be proven right or get the agenda out that you were tasked with, like a default version of reality.

AGAIN, you made assertions with YOUR post about some supposed fraud, lies, fake stas and/or data. Why don't YOU prove, you know since you're the one claiming all that fraudulant data, that the housing market recovery is beyond ANY doubt, based upon fraudulant data, cooked numbers......whatever you kooks call them. And try doing it without some references to crank websites and your fellow kooks, but mainstream normal, level-headed and rational people.

errc says

What exactly do you fear would have happened had the govt not bailed out all
the bad actors?

Well other than the obvious social upheaval and pain for a time, it would have been more of a consolidation of wealth. There would have been a market clearing, someone would have stepped in to acquire the assets in the bankruptcy.

Who do you think that would have been? Average Joe down the street making $50k at his job?

Point is, SOME of the wealthy were overleveraged and maybe even MOST of them would have been wiped out. But not all, and those left over would have been there to purchase the productive capital at bankruptcy.

It happened even with the bailouts - Buffet bought a significant portion of GS, BAC, etc. all at pretty sweet prices. Now I know you will say that he would have been wiped out without the bailout - maybe - but the point is not every rich guy was leveraged to his eyeballs.

No bailouts would have allowed productive capital to be consolidated in fewer hands.

Who bought Hostess brands in BK? Who bought the remnants of Merrill Lynch and Bear Stearns?

It certainly wasn't the middle class.

Most of the net worth that the middle class has is in the present value of their future labor plus the present value of their annuities due (also known as "entitlements").

I don't think you could buy Merrill Lynch with either of those.

My guess is Koch industries would have been sitting pretty in a financial system collapse. It would explain why they are so pissed about the bailouts.

Call it Crazy says

I have asked you over and over to provide data that disputes the housing
metrics in the OP, so far, crickets (and a lot of diarrhea) from you...

AGAIN, for whatever time this is, YOU, NOT ME, made the assertions, not me and you based them upon some ramblings from some crank website, not normal legit and respected critics.

You know what older people are doing? Working low wage jobs, they are not retiring. Because very few can afford to retire.

Today you are looking at housing only, tomorrow hopefully you'll see the entire picture.

Call it Crazy says

I have asked you over and over to provide data that disputes the housing
metrics in the OP, so far, crickets (and a lot of diarrhea) from you...

You're asking me to dispute something that you(or Jim Quinn) pulled from your collective asses?

Where's the definitive data and legitimate historical stats that prove any of your BS beyond any doubt?

The ONLY thing that you've linked to so far is a tirade from The Burning Platform, whose past of irrational rants and history of being devoid of many facts is known and so is appropriately referred to as a 'crank site'.

I deleted this because it double posted.

Call it Crazy says

upisdown
says

The ONLY think that you've linked to so far is a tirade from The Burning
Platform,

Really??

Yea, really. F-n scroll up. Or, better yet, I'll copy and paste the only link that you gave in the original post:

http://www.theburningplatform.com/2014/02/02/warped-distorted-manipulated-flipped-housing-market/

John Bailo says

When they wanted people to expand and have families they made housing cheap

That's the problem. This Administration does not want "Family" expansion. In fact they want to destroy the family unit.
And Insurance is proving to be as invaluable as the Teachers and curriculum they chose.

I mean they can tell the kids that they are hopeless and will never amount to much, and they should sit at home and collect SNAP while routing that the uneducated (Darker than you)man gets socially promoted all the way to the top in Government jobs with cushy retirement terms.

But all of that is for naught, if Mom and Dad are at home fucking things up, like teaching Jr to get a job, save money have a goal, save up for a car and learn all of the stuff that it takes to be a self sufficient adult in the Modern Society.

So what's a Lib to do?

Well you could crush all of the cheap used cars, insure all cars at the highest common denominator, fine families an extra $300 a month if Jr gets his drivers license, whether you let him drive your new car or not, or whether he drives a $800 fully paid for hooptie or not. But what family crisis would be complete with out the lack of suitible employment.
I bet no Kid in America is paying their own damn way, earning minimum wage, at 17 hours a week. That's not even enough to cover the gas bill.
Let alone that $300 a month premium. And I'll be damned if Mom and Dad can foot the bill, they've got you down for another $300 a month on Obamacare premiums until you're 26.

Call it Crazy says

upisdown
says

Where's the definitive data and legitimate historical stats that prove any of
your BS beyond any doubt?

That's what I keep asking from you!!! Disprove it!!

Disprove what? You've NEVER established that it was true to begin with, so that's impossible.

Call it Crazy says

Why don't you actually READ that article and you'll see where the data came
from..... Tooo much work?? Or will that take away from your diarrhea time??

Seriously? Look at f-n title of the link, along with the fact that THAT website is a known 'crank' site, or more commonly referred to as a 'collapse blog'. The recurring theme is doom and gloom, not facts.

And, as I've asked plenty of times before this, if it's such a known fact then you shouldn't have any trouble whatsoever finding a legitimate site, or facts, and data to establish what you're trying to imply. From the way you're acting, you'd think it was all over the www and on billboards too, but you have yet to link to any of those places.

Why is that?

Something tells me the young generation won't be paying the boomers the prices they demand for their shacks.

Either the boomers will rot in place, with special property-tax grandfathering giving them 1990 taxes on their 2025-priced houses, or they will sell at much lower prices, as in: prices the younger generations can actually afford.

Unless there is wage inflation - hahahahahaha! - I see no sale at current prices.

control point says

My guess is Koch industries would have been sitting pretty in a financial system collapse. It would explain why they are so pissed about the bailouts.

Oil hit $40/barrel. Koch would have been crushed. That is the whole point, if you do nothing when does it stop?

Lehman collapses
Ok we do nothing......
Reserve Primary fund breaks the buck due to Lehman collapse
Ok we do nothing......
Just pick your poison because if we continue to do nothing it gets way way worse.

Remember the fed backstopped EVERYTHING
Bank accounts 250k, money market funds, hell they even backstopped commercial paper so GE could stay in business.

We are in a credit based world if we get rid of credit, prices and wages drop to cash values. 1.2 Trillion in printed US dollars on the planet. You do the math.

Business idea: Bag-out service, cleaning out rotting bodies and stacks of 'Doors' and 'Rolling Stones' albums from boomer houses.

Between now and 2040, they'll be dropping at the rate of one each 30 seconds - that's 2880 per day.

Talkin' 'bout their generation!

Anyone who can't see dollar signs here has a heart of stone!

yup1 says

hell they even backstopped commercial paper so GE could stay in business.

Not true GE had to rollover 5 billion a week with commercial paper it had sales of 200 billion per year. They would have lost earnings but they were not going to go BK. This was part of the charade that Immelt conned Paulson with.

yup1 says

We are in a credit based world if we get rid of credit, prices and wages drop to cash values. 1.2 Trillion in printed US dollars on the planet. You do the math.

So what. The value of currency would be higher and prices would be lower.

indigenous says

Not true GE had to rollover 5 billion a week with commercial paper it had
sales of 200 billion per year. They would have lost earnings but they were not
going to go BK. This was part of the charade that Immelt conned Paulson
with.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Probably best to just direct me to where you read and regurgitated this from so I can review and it confirm or debunk it.

indigenous says

Not true GE had to rollover 5 billion a week with commercial paper it had sales of 200 billion per year.

lol--you've got to be kidding. What was their cash flow? If you can't tell me that, then you have no idea what their situation was.

indigenous says

So what. The value of currency would be higher and prices would be lower.

After you've been laid off and have run through your savings, I'm sure you'll take solace in the fact that the value of the dollar is higher.

control point says

indigenous says

Not true GE had to rollover 5 billion a week with commercial paper it had

sales of 200 billion per year. They would have lost earnings but they were not

going to go BK. This was part of the charade that Immelt conned Paulson

with.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Probably best to just direct me to where you read and regurgitated this from so I can review and it confirm or debunk it.

David Stockman's book on the bailout. It is 700 pages long.

tatupu70 says

You read about as well as Reality. My position is now, and always has been, that nobody can know whether the bailouts were necessary. Because it's IMPOSSIBLE to know.

Given that, and that the consequences of no bailouts was so dire, I think it's very naive of you guys to pretend that the bailouts were a horrible idea and that things would have been fine without them.

LOL... So it's "IMPOSSIBLE to know" whether they were necessary... but "..the consequences of no bailouts was so dire..."

In other words, you believe they were absolutely necessary but simply don't have the honesty or balls to state so directly.

Paralithodes says

LOL... So it's "IMPOSSIBLE to know" whether they were necessary... but "..the consequences of no bailouts was so dire..."

In other words, you believe they were absolutely necessary but simply don't have the honesty or balls to state so directly.

You're right---I should have said--the potential consequences....

But--I have stated it honestly and directly. You guys just seem to have a very difficult time understanding it.

indigenous says

David Stockman's book on the bailout. It is 700 pages long.

The Great Deformation? What page?

Without the criminal bailouts (rule of law anyone?) we would have had some of the worst cronies and leeches removed from the taxpayers teats, overall a huge win! Instead we slipped into a banana republic where some are above the law - way to juice the economy! It works so well that printing money is legal and encouraged - oh wait, it isn't if you aren't part of the chosen ones doing heavenly work on the sheeple ;)

control point says

The Great Deformation? What page?

I use a Kindle so there are page numbers. But it is covered in chapter 3

indigenous says

I use a Kindle so there are page numbers. But it is covered in chapter 3

Since you are being intentionally obtuse, I will assume that this is a direct quote from his book.

indigenous says

Not true GE had to rollover 5 billion a week with commercial paper it had
sales of 200 billion per year. They would have lost earnings but they were not
going to go BK. This was part of the charade that Immelt conned Paulson
with.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/40545/000119312511047479/d10k.htm#tx37537_8

In 2008, GE had revenues of $181.5B. So the "sales of 200 Billion" was an exxageration on Stockman's part.

GE had $193B in short term borrowings at the end of 2008. If they cannot roll that debt into new financings - that is the amount due.

Here, we see short-term borrowings exceeds SALES. As if sales means one f-in thing. They had $8B, net, cash flow from operating and investing activities.

If they had not been bailed out and given the ability to roll their $193B of short term debt(refinance), they do not have the cash to cover it.

If a company cannot meet its short term payables, it is Bankrupt.

If this is a direct quote from Stockman's book, Stockman is an assclown. He is being dishonest and intentionally misleading when comparing annual sales to monthly payroll payable.