patrick.net

zzyzzx is deplorable says

Thunderlips Russian Agent 0069 says

All the growth is going to the rich right now. It didn't when we made much of our own shit.

When we made out own shit, jobs were easier to get and paid better in relative terms. Meaning instead of zero or negative wages after inflation for over 30-something years, we will have positive wage growth after inflation. Everyone will get richer.

Pure fantasy. It's a world economy. You can't put the cheap shipping, cheap airfare, international communications and data interconnection genie back in the bottle.

Do you really think you can slap punitive tariffs on imports and the rest of the world will say that's ok? Other countries will shut down our exports in a heart beat. There isn't anything the US manufactures that can't be sourced from another country. For every job you bring back, most will be robots anyway, 2 export related jobs will be lost. The .1% will work the money flow for a profit whichever way it goes, the average person will be screwed.

jazz music votes early says

Back when America was great, 1950's and 1960's Republicans were more left-wing than either party is at this time. Thanks to Tea Party, southern strategy, and all the government workers who are always extremely conservative.

Add to that the general polarization caused by everyone having a custom news feed that caters to their beliefs and never shows an opinion or fact that challenges those beliefs.

jazz music votes early says

zzyzzx is deplorable says

I like getting higher wages.

Will inflation really just apply to your wages?

Inflation will continue to apply to commodities and stocks, but not to wages.

Thunderlips Russian Agent 0069 says

Hillary is to the right of Nixon on most issues

I said that many times. How anyone calls Hillary a liberal is beyond me.

Futurama summed up Richard Nixon's character better than anyone else ever has.

www.youtube.com/embed/1ne_Lv0OUus

AllTruth says

Trolling is a legitimate form of communication, conversing, conveying info, and otherwise exchanging ideas.

Actually no. You're describing witty retorts, sarcasm, and irreverent parody. Trolling is an attempt to derail discussions and have them degrade into poo flinging. It conveys no ideas, offers no counter-arguments, and is entirely non-persuasive.

hahaha. a jazz freakout....love it!

jazz music votes early says

Presidency of the United States Of America: the greatest toy a racist slumlord's trust fund brat could ever have!

Now what are you going to say?

Say hello to extremist evangelist/regressive/racist Mike Pence who will be the one showing up for work every day.

Instead of saying Hillary is so fucked up, why not say how United States Of America is not so screwed?

You can't because all you got is PROMISES BY THE MOST BRAZEN LIAR EVER TO SEEK OFFICE on one hand and the REPUBLICAN AGENDA which has not changed and WILL NOT change and oh yeah, bible-thumping/regressive/racist/extremist Mike Pence ... FUCKIN A!

A fucking reality TV star who makes shitty faces and says "YOU'RE FIRED!" and then lies about being rich too.

Trump is good. 55 million fradulent votes.
That's some serious rigging.

Will we have a Black Swan during the lame duck?
Rep/Con/Teas will have to worry about the FUCK YOU BIRD for 4 years.
Look up! Are vultures circling?
Presidency & Congress under Rep/Con/Tea control & the SCOTUS,soon?
If SHTF:
They won't be able to point fingers. They can just look in a mirror.

The big question is,those that didn't vote,happy?

From Michael Moore,

The MAJORITY of Americans preferred Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump. Period.

Yes, a majority preferred one turd sandwich slightly over the other, but a vast majority preferred Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton and by a lot. Sure, not the foolish Democratic primary voters, but the majority of the general electorate.

Still, we should get rid of the electoral college and all voting districts and congressional districts.

I wonder if nobody had learned the lesson that there is no such a thing as trickle down economy. The rich will hold onto their money they have saved on tax. The investment does not create the goods and services that are in demand, it the people. When you are giving so much money to the rich at the cost of our deficit budget and our national debt, there will be no more money to give to universities and schools. The universities are the institution where we create the people who can produce goods and services that are in demand. But there is no money at our school. These schools accept more foreign students eliminating more seats for our kids here in US. When there are no young talents here in US but overseas, how can that make US a great country?

I am so afraid of our ever inflating budget deficit and national debt. We may have finished our future.

bob2356 says

Pure fantasy. It's a world economy. You can't put the cheap shipping, cheap airfare, international communications and data interconnection genie back in the bottle.

The problem is you forget most tariffs are a one-way street. There are massive tariff AND non-tariff barriers by Japan and China to the entry of US goods.

When Europe allows Chinese imports, it's always tit-for-tat making China accept French Engines or German Medical Equipment. We allow the Chinese to import everything while they maintain massive trade barriers against us. Wall St. doesn't care because their sole interest is manufacturing there for sale over here.

Frankly, with 30% of the World Consumer Market, we should be selling $500,000/yr export licenses for the privilege of access to US Markets.

The "Globalized World" was 100% Political in it's Creation. You guys keep pretending it's this Natural Force like an Earthquake or a Geyser, when it's the CATO Institute and the US Chamber of Commerce.

Ricardo could have never conceived of Manchester Mills being shipped to Bombay, with the shirts exported to England.

You simply cannot have a nation of 300+ Million people as mortgage brokers and Rx Marketing people, with the rest as Butt Wipers of Elderly Boomers and expect to keep the American Dream Alive. If you took every Pharma company and moved it into the US it wouldn't even begin to provide enough employment.

Since we've done it your neoliberal way, we saw Debt to GDP go from less than 30% to 100%, sky high level of Private Debt totally disproportionate to Economic Growth, and massive boom in Inequality. The third way has been proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt; all the predicted mitigation mechanisms (ie High Tech Jobs of The Future) have failed to materialize, and when they did, they were captured by H-1Bs and the Multinationals rather than the citizens. Wages must go up.

Nobody says

I wonder if nobody had learned the lesson that there is no such a thing as trickle down economy.

Explain how people have light bulbs, cars, planes, trains, automobiles and lettuce.

If people in 1992 saw what 2016 looked like, they would have burned down DC rather than left NAFTA pass.

The real surprise is that shitheads who caused the greatest Recession since the Great Depression are revered as perceptive intellects merely for putting a bandage on the limb they chopped off via negligence and ideology.

I thought neoliberalism was supposed to be the cure for increasing Debt-to-GDP ratios. Instead, it's taken the Debt-to-GDP ratio and tripled it to 100%+

Thunderlips Russian Agent 0069 says

If people in 1992 saw what 2016 looked like, they would have burned down DC rather than left NAFTA pass.

You give the sheep too much credit.

jazz music votes early says

Presidency of the United States Of America: the greatest toy a racist slumlord's trust fund brat could ever have!

People have been underestimating him so far. If anything, we should realize that he has done a very precise job (1) on connecting to the average Joe six-pack and wording it in a way that minimizes his opposition to traditional republican memes like free trade, and (2) on using media: with twitter and by generating outrage. He didn't rose among 20 republicans candidates by chance.
Calling him trust fund brat misses the mark at this point.

Still, with absolutely 0 experience of government, we have to see what he can do.
You can make deals if you understand the rules of the game people play around you.

Thunderlips Russian Agent 0069 says

The problem is you forget the tariffs are a one-way street.

They are 'one way' until the other nation levies one as a direct response. Thus begins trade wars, the freezing up of trade, chilling of relations, more economic hardship, and more nationalism. This is a dangerous reinforcing cycle.

Thunderlips Russian Agent 0069 says

The "Globalized World" was 100% Political in it's Creation.

Just like nations, societies, and almost all rules of human interaction: all these things are human political creations.

Thunderlips Russian Agent 0069 says

If people in 1992 saw what 2016 looked like, they would have burned down DC rather than left NAFTA pass.

The same would be true for factory workers seeing the industrial revolution, which is in a good degree responsible for WWI.

The parallels to our current automation and free trade here are uncanny. The right wing nationalism infections have taken hold. Now we wait for further economic decline, because we won't make the tax system more progressive, and we are in the second leg of a massive transition away from manufacturing work due to automation.

You think there will be a wall and a return of jobs? (shaking head)

Entitlemented says

Explain how people have light bulbs, cars, planes, trains, automobiles and lettuce.

Agricultural revolution allowing humans to focus brain power on other things. It has nothing to do with how well off any segment of society was or if trickle down works.

All you need is right here:
http://scalar.usc.edu/works/growing-apart-a-political-history-of-american-inequality/index

Toggle that first graph and look at wages, taxes, etc.

1928 and 2007 ... check 'em out. Trump presidency will cause a new peak formation in inequality. Also paralleled in 28, last time Republicans had control all branches of government. Shortly thereafter, depression and WWII.

The momentum pulls us deeper on this path. Can we avert it?

Thunderlips Russian Agent 0069 says

The real surprise is that shitheads who caused the greatest Recession since the Great Depression are revered as perceptive intellects merely for putting a bandage on the limb they chopped off via negligence and ideology.

Look at the smug look on the Regressive Clintons Face:

www.youtube.com/embed/xQ7kn2-GEmM

Look at the smug Gore on how NAFTA will help Americas economy.

www.youtube.com/embed/GhwhMXOxHTg

Look what happened in France as the governement grew and exerted more regulations on private enterprize, - Sound familiar?:

"Day after day, the central government conquers new
fields of action into which these bodies can not follow
it. Novelties arise, pregnant with cases. for which no
precedents can be found in par~entary routine: society,
in a-fever of activity, creates new' demands, which
the government alone can satisfy, and each of which
swells its authority; for the sphere of all other administrativ6
bodies is defined and fixed; that of the government
alone is movable, and spreads with the ext.ension
of civilization."

De Tocqueville circa 1840.

The recession is coming. It would have happened to either president, but it is going to happen to Trump. How he handles it, and does he have any tools to handle it will be the question. Recession in 3-9 months:

http://www.talkmarkets.com/content/bonds/edward-lambert-on-bond-demand-the-coming-recession-and-new-normal?post=111806&uid=4798

blah, blah, blaha, blah -LOL!!!!!!!

Entitlemented says

Look what happened in France as the governement grew and exerted more regulations on private enterprize

It's not simply because of regulation it is what and how something is regulated. A totally free unregulated market is an absolute horror show.

Trump looks lined up to give the biggest tax breaks, not to the lower and middle class, but to the wealthy elites. Tough to know, because he is mostly mouth. Let's see what he does. If ever there was a modern Louis the XIV out there ... it is T-Rump.

Smug Elitest Smiles: Do one thing in public and have another opinion in private.

www.youtube.com/embed/XM_AheSsm64

Why do you think the people are fed up with Washington and ex-Presidents family's who has turned lobbyists after making bad deals for the Citizens:

He better move quick as Hillary is likely to have him and Trump wacked in the near future.

Rew says

They are 'one way' until the other nation levies one as a direct response. Thus begins trade wars, the freezing up of trade, chilling of relations, more economic hardship, and more nationalism. This is a dangerous reinforcing cycle.

Let me know when in any business a person or entity or organization allows itself to sign a one sided, sweetheart deal and other party says "Damn our wonderful arrangement, let's voluntarily and unilaterally reciprocate, just to be nice."

In all the decades the UK reduced tariffs to next to nothing, nobody reciprocated to the same degree.

China has had 20 years to reciprocate.

Thunderlips Russian Agent 0069 says

In all the decades the UK reduced tariffs to next to nothing, nobody reciprocated to the same degree.

Gosh, it is almost as if the UK wanted an influx of foreign goods? I'm sure they had NO CLUE they were doing that.

They are already constructing a poison mirror. Trumpligula won't be able to resist.

KILL FOR KHRIST!

Rew says

Gosh, it is almost as if the UK wanted an influx of foreign goods? I'm sure they had NO CLUE they were doing that.

The 19th Century UK was desperate to find new markets. They thought they'd crusade on free trade, using moral guilt and propaganda about benefits to get reciprocity, so they had one-sided free trade with most of the World. It was never reciprocated, indeed their greatest rival soon attempted to dominate Europe and almost succeeded twice, wealthy on one-sided exports to the UK when they kept a huge tariff on British Goods entering Germany.

Within 50 years the UK went from unstoppable and overwhelmingly powerful, to a second rate power.

We're doing it all over again, but with the US and China.

Thunderlips Russian Agent 0069 says

China has had 20 years to reciprocate.

Their freebies are over now. Watch how quickly they reciprocate.

When the Chinese ballistic launched warhead slams into the USS Nimitz and kills 1000 sailors, it was because of a variety of technologies engineered from US plants that subcontracted to Chinese firms in the guidance system.

Shake Bill Clinton and Dubya's hands that day, for their role in peace and freedom.

Trade doesn't make the world a safer place. The biggest wars are between the biggest trade partners.

Any excuse to throw a rock through a department store window to loot is a good excuse.

Thunderlips Russian Agent 0069 says

The problem is you forget most tariffs are a one-way street. There are massive tariff AND non-tariff barriers by Japan and China to the entry of US goods.

We trade with just a few more countries than china or japan. Like 191 of them. Put up a tariff barrier with China then production will simply slide somewhere else. The corporations will play global whack a mole much faster than governments can react. You keep ignoring the fact that even if some manufacturing comes back it will be highly automated. The number of new jobs will be very limited, while the cost of domestic goods will go up sharply. Win for the .1%. Loser for everyone else.

Even with massive barriers we sold 200 billion to china and japan last year. I'm sure boeing will be thrilled to lose their projected trillion dollars in sales to china over the next 20 years to airbus once we start a trade war. I guess boeing can make toasters and washing machines for the domestic market instead.

The butt hurt is strong in this one.

Jezebel: Oh, And Fuck Jill Stein Too

While we’re chatting, fuck you to everyone who cast a protest vote or chose not to vote. Fuck you to Susan Sarandon and of course, fuck Jill Stein.

History will remember this.

Hey dickwad, maybe you shouldn't have forced Hillary on us and made us choose between her and Trump when there were three candidates who would have crushed Trump and are better than Hillary in every single way.

Oh, and how isn't it misogynistic to say that about Jill Stein, but not voting for Hillary makes us all chauvinists?

#letTheButthurtFlow

The Wogster is saying that the tariffs will wreak havoc.

IIRC a while back he said that Smoot Hawley had no effect on the economy at the time.

What was it Trump talked about in the debates about taxes. Was it income averaging?

As far as tariffs go, that is a lose lose. Economics 101, comparative advantage is what creates an economy.

bob2356 says

We trade with just a few more countries than china or japan. Like 191 of them. Put up a tariff barrier with China then production will simply slide somewhere else.

The idea is to make China buy more from us, so that we don't have the huge trade deficits with them.
I was in Las Vegas 10 days ago, and I saw lots of Chinese tourists throw money around like crazy. We want more of that.

Just in......BLM rioters out and about in Chicago.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/09/politics/election-results-reaction-streets/index.html

Let's get real, Trump won the popular vote. Now, I know what you are saying. Hillary won the popular vote by like 0.1%. Except that she didn't really. If you really want to measure the popular opinion, then you have to eliminate all spoilers. In a pure Hillary v. Trump election, Trump gets the majority of the vote by about 2%. Here's why.

Let's give all Jill Stein's votes and all other candidate's votes to Hillary. That gives her an additional 1.7%, and that's erring way on the side of Hillary.

Gary Johnson votes, however, clearly go to Trump. Johnson is a Republican turned Libertarian and the Libertarian Party is basically the Republican Party minus the social conservative agenda. That's 3% for Trump pushing him clearly into the majority.

The point is that the argument that Hillary lost solely due to the electoral college is flawed. If we did elections right with instant run-offs, she still loses. The majority, however slight, of voters preferred the orange haired turd to the pantsuit turd.

bob2356 says

We trade with just a few more countries than china or japan. Like 191 of them

Yep. And we have a Trade Deficit in excess of half a Trillion dollars a year. It doesn't matter if we have a $20M surplus with Sukamycuk Island in Polynesia if we have a $350B Trade Deficit with China.

This is the Walter Williams argument that is quite exploded.

At some point you have to sell to buy. Balanced Trade is Good Trade.

bob2356 says

Even with massive barriers we sold 200 billion to china and japan last year. I'm sure boeing will be thrilled to lose their projected trillion dollars in sales to china over the next 20 years to airbus once we start a trade war. I guess boeing can make toasters and washing machines for the domestic market instead.

I guarantee you Boeing is lying off their ass about their new China Plant, and is champing at the bit to lay off as much of their US workforce as soon as the new plant gets up to snuff. This after pocketing decades of taxpayer freebies to keep them in the USA.

Very High Value Added, High Tech jobs.

You apologists used to claim it was only plastic hangers and cotton sock jobs going abroad.

Now we have high tech, high added value added Systems Control manufacturing jobs moving to Mexico.

What are you going to do to employ tens of millions of Americans in decent jobs where they can achieve the American Dream, not tread water on a mix of Medicaid and Food Stamps?

Is it a coincidence that the world's largest free trade country has a Job Mix most 3rd world countries would be embarrassed to have? Ass Wiper, Hotel and Hospitality? Minimum wage, no advancement, little value added? Are those the "Jobs of the Future(tm)!" you Neoliberals promised?

"We can't change nuthin'!!! Besides, shitty racist sexist rednecks deserve shitty jobs" is the same argument "Why, if we don't have 5-year olds in the mines and a 68 hour workweek, the economy will collapse and idleness is the tool of the devil!"