patrick.net

I suspect that this topic is coming up in regard to Trump, who has launched an ongoing attack on the media. He has also launched an ongoing effort to obscure the truth by repeating what are clearly lies or fringe beliefs. What is happening is that more and more things that should be widely accepted based on solid evidence are being questioned for political reasons.

Ironman says

Do you have a problem with FACTS?

I marked that post as ad hominem. See this post https://patrick.net/1303192/2017-02-20-to-anyone-who-cares?c=1382898#comment-1382898 for a discussion of the difference between facts (objectively true) and subjective statements. You made some subjective statements that were ad hominem. I marked it as such, because it was obvious. If you want to make that post, just do so again and label it for what it is.

zzyzzx says

Icahn to sell closed Trump Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City

Icahn, a special adviser to U.S. President Donald Trump, the original owner of the casino, will sell the Taj Mahal - possibly at a loss - instead of investing the $100 million to $200 million it needs to keep going, according to a statement on his website.

Icahn closed the 26-year-old Taj Mahal in October 2016 after failing to reach a new contract with union employees.

Dumb unions. They did not accept Icahn's offer, and they won't let anyone else accept it either. I'm sure a lot of workers would be ready to accept Icahn's offer.
Now everyone loses. Fucking commies.

"Dumb unions. They did not accept Icahn's offer, and they won't let anyone else accept it either. I'm sure a lot of workers would be ready to accept Icahn's offer.
Now everyone loses. Fucking commies."

Yes, workers should bow down to their "job creators" thanking their lucky stars that anyone would hire them. They shouldn't care what the pay or benefits are. Just say thank you to their master.

joeyjojojunior says

You acknowledge that they aren't really misrepresenting anything-

I did no such thing. Misrepresentation by devious and/or incompetent writing is still misrepresentation.

"I did no such thing. Misrepresentation by devious and/or incompetent writing is still misrepresentation."

OK--could you quote a snippet of the story that you think is devious or incompetent writing that is an example of misrepresentation?

Here's to the 10,000 non Union jobs that will replace them.

When the ecconomy booms and I build my 5 hotels on the Boardwalk my high priced lawyers can argue that Union Labor killed my predecessors.

Oh Goody!

Tenpoundbass says

The Truth is out there, but you wont find it on a Cable channel.

Yes, I agree. But, how will you know?

Dan8267 says

WorkInProgress says

THE TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST.

www.youtube.com/embed/MMzd40i8TfA

This is how all the smug media and politicians see us.

joeyjojojunior says

OK--could you quote a snippet of the story that you think is devious or incompetent writing that is an example of misrepresentation?

How about this one:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trumps-grab-em-comments-unleash-outpouring-of-womens-stories/

At no point does it correctly quote him as saying "they let you do that", where Trump points out that he reliably gets consent from women.

And even in the stories that manage to quote the thing correctly, they completely ignore Trump's point about women consenting as long as you're a "star".

Very disingenuous.

Yes, wtf, how is Icahn going to make another $100MM when those damn workers expect to get paid a liveable wage AND get benefits too?? Don't they realize it's not easy making the payments on a private jet and yacht, and 2 houses in Hawaii, and condos in NY, Paris, London, etc. Those god damn workers and their unions are killing the US.

joeyjojojunior says

http://www.snopes.com/wsj-different-trump-headlines/

This is an example of exactly why I started this post.

Snopes? Habababa!!!

My truth teller is better than your truth teller.

P N Dr Lo R says

WorkInProgress says

Who is your truth teller?

Jesus Christ: The Way, the Truth and the Life.

WorkInProgress says

Is he/she/it better than my truth teller?

Yes.

+1,000

Unions are a necessary counterweight to excessive power by owners.

Unions can become too powerful and ruin businesses, but they also have an important and legitimate function, imho.

"How about this one"

Well, I was asking about the story that prompted the discussion, but as to the one you linked--I still don't see it. The story isn't really even about Trump at all, other than to say that his comment caused a reaction among many women.

And I think, to be fair, a lot of women might disagree with Trump's quote about consent. I agree that women certainly fawn over stars, and rich men get away with a lot more than normal folks, but what Trump thought was consent may not agree with what the women in question would say is consent.

YesYNot says

I suspect that this topic is coming up in regard to Trump, who has launched an ongoing attack on the media. He has also launched an ongoing effort to obscure the truth by repeating what are clearly lies or fringe beliefs. What is happening is that more and more things that should be widely accepted based on solid evidence are being questioned for political reasons.

Trump, Trump, Trump. Habababa!

All politicians and all the media. All the conservatives and all the liberals.

THE TRUTH DOES NOT EXIST!!

Keep firing away.

rando says

Unions are a necessary counterweight to excessive power by owners.

Unions can become too powerful and ruin businesses, but they also have an important and legitimate function, imho.

Private sector unions are fine provided they are smart enough to not bankrupt the owners and all interested parties have a seat at the negotiating table.

But unions have absolutely no place in the Public Sector. It is one of the #1 reasons why California State and Local governments are going broke and our infrastructure is shit - despite very high taxes. The tax payer has no say and public sector unions create a corruption feedback loop with Democrat politicians.

Oh, I almost forgot.....

ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem.

You get it.

Boy they love that hominy!

socal2 says

But unions have absolutely no place in the Public Sector.

I agree. Will add this to my platform at https://patrick.net/1303173/2017-02-19-patrick-net-platform

"But unions have absolutely no place in the Public Sector. It is one of the #1 reasons why California State and Local governments are going broke and our infrastructure is shit - despite very high taxes. The tax payer has no say and public sector unions create a corruption feedback loop with Democrat politicians"

I understand the argument, but the issue isn't unions--it's that the people we elect are so easily corrupted. And it's not a Dem or Rep. issue--local governments are not dominated by either party. People need to pay more attention to local politics and hold school boards, fire boards etc more responsible for controlling costs.

If this were a discussion about postmodern philosophy, I might agree with the OP. But when we are simply communicating with eachother, we need to be able to agree on simple and obvious truths and on what is obviously not true regarding obvious facts and happenings in our agreed upon reality. Without this, we don't function.

For some people, claiming there is no truth is little more than a lame and totally bullshit way of defending the most dishonest leader we have ever seen.

marcus says

For some people, claiming there is no truth is little more than a lame and totally bullshit way of defending the most dishonest leader we have ever seen.

Prove Trump is what you say he is. Who and/or what are you going to use as your truth teller?

YesYNot says

Some things are objective and are either true or false. For example, 2 + 2 = 4 is objectively true.

Other things are subjective, and are neither true nor false. For example, 2 is way cooler than 3.

Some things are objectively true or false, but are unknown. For example, Trump either has syphilis or not. We just don't know.

Trump makes many statements that are objectively false. For example: He claimed that his was the biggest electoral win since Reagan. This is just false. There is no other truth. There are no alternative facts. There is just the truth on the one hand and Trump's lies on the other.

Trump makes other statements that are subjective. For example: He claims that he inherited a big mess. There is no objective definition of what constitutes a mess. So, this is subjective. Other examples would be his statement that America is no longer great and doesn't win.

In many cases, experts agree to a high degree that something is true, but has not been proven. An example would be that humans have contributed to global warming. Experts typically agree based on evidence. Many times statistical evidence is overwhelming. An example would be that a drug trial shows that there is less than 1% chance that the observation was due to chance (P less than 0.01)

Sometimes something has been shown to be very unlikely, but is not accepted by many people including Trump (an example would be immunizations causing autism).

The OP didn't provide much insight, but the topic is interesting and relevant these days.

Ironman says

Fuck You!! You're an Asshole because Fuck You!! And you're an Asshole!!

Here's what no one is saying. It doesn't matter what gold does near term. It's all about the long term. And, if you price your gold in USD, gold is going to go through the roof. Why? Because the USD is going to ZERO. Yes, I said it.

$20,000,000,000,000 in debt and climbing . We are past the point of NO RETURN. Rates have to go up. It will become a vicious cycle with the government paying more and more in interest payments which will require more borrowing (because no one will touch entitlements) which will raise the debt which will raise the payments which will require more borrowing which will raise the debt ...

Seeing the pattern yet?

There is no getting out of this rabbit hole. All of a sudden ... one day you will wake up and a roll of toilet paper will be $20. It will be cheaper if you keep $1 bills as you can wipe your ass with that rather than buy toilet paper.

Actually BUY gold (and food and guns and seeds and ammo and anything else you need along with the means to prevent it from being taken from you).

That's my 2 cents which won't be worth shit.

WorkInProgress says

Prove Trump is what you say he is. Who and/or what are you going to use as your truth teller?

I've watched Trump speak, I've seen the constant lies. Politifact and others have done analysis, lie by lie. You can find all the lies, listed one by one. He lies nearly constantly. Even many that voted for him aren't intellectually dishonest enough to deny this.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

You should check it out. IT includes the many true and or mostly true things he says too.

Far more than half of the statements they checked fall in the range "mostly false" to "pants on fire"

Singlemom says

20,000,000,000,000 in debt and climbing

Why would this matter? Intragovernmental debt is like 6 trillion of it, and most of the public debt is held by American citizens and corporations, right?

And the debt won't cause inflation anyway.

Gold might be a good investment but why is it better than:

- Treasuries
- Index fund
- Housing
- Stocks

joeyjojojunior says

I understand the argument, but the issue isn't unions--it's that the people we elect are so easily corrupted. And it's not a Dem or Rep. issue--local governments are not dominated by either party. People need to pay more attention to local politics and hold school boards, fire boards etc more responsible for controlling costs.

In California, pensions are the biggest liability in terms of costs. It is 30% of all tax dollars in some cities. Under current California law, it is impossible to reform pensions because of the "California Rule". That means everyone feels the pain through higher taxes, reduced services and shafted bond-holders - but government employees really don't have to pitch in anything. And any time a municipality or even Governor Brown tried some modest pension reform like preventing spiking of pensions on the last year of service or buying "air time" the unions take them to court.

Thankfully, 2 appellate courts have ruled for sanity saying that pensions can be reformed provided they still provide a "reasonable" benefit. But those cases are now going to the State Supreme court. If California's State Supreme Court is as retarded as Illinois' State Supreme Court, expect to see massive municipal bankruptcies in the near term.

joeyjojojunior says

They shouldn't care what the pay or benefits are. Just say thank you to their master.

Would that be the union bosses or the employer?

joeyjojojunior says

I understand the argument, but the issue isn't unions--it's that the people we elect are so easily corrupted

why should people so easily corrupted become unionized.?

rando says

At no point does it correctly quote him as saying "they let you do that", where Trump points out that he reliably gets consent from women.

That's not consent, that's letting him get away with it after it's already happened. There's a difference.

Ironman says

Are you that sensitive that nobody can ask you a direct question?

What are you talking about? You never asked me a direct question, and I never said that I was offended. If you wanted to point out a fact, you'd just make a post saying that Dan's been flagging your posts as ad hominem even though he has you on ignore. The commentary about being a special snowflake with mental illness is clearly ad hominem, juvenile, and boring. If you don't want your posts deleted, focus on making them interesting and keeping the ad hominem stuff flagged with thunderdome. It's really a pretty simple concept.

Why did it get deleted? It didn't look like a big deal really, just usual patnet chit chat.

MMR says

why should people so easily corrupted become unionized.?

Uh, I don't think the elected officials are unionized.

@Ironman please use "thunderdome" in the title if you are going to directly attack another user.

I unliked the thread--does the world make sense again?

joeyjojojunior says

Uh, I don't think the elected officials are unionized.

Democrat politicians in California certainly get campaign funds from public sector unions which they take from us tax payers.

And many politicians are former public sector workers who are collecting fat pensions. So they have a financial incentive to keep the pension schemes going.

socal2 says

Democrat politicians in California certainly get campaign funds from public sector unions which they take from us tax payers.

And many politicians are former public sector workers who are collecting fat pensions. So they have a financial incentive to keep the pension schemes going.

Yep--so let's implement campaign finance reform. Public election funding like Patrick proposed. No more Koch Bros. No more Soros. No more union donations. That solves the problem.