patrick.net

Unions are a necessary counterweight to excessive power by owners.

Unions can become too powerful and ruin businesses, but they also have an important and legitimate function, imho.

Private sector unions are fine provided they are smart enough to not bankrupt the owners and all interested parties have a seat at the negotiating table.

But unions have absolutely no place in the Public Sector. It is one of the #1 reasons why California State and Local governments are going broke and our infrastructure is shit - despite very high taxes. The tax payer has no say and public sector unions create a corruption feedback loop with Democrat politicians.

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GNL 2017 Feb 20, 1:58pm

Oh, I almost forgot.....

ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem.

You get it.

81164

NDrLoR 2017 Feb 20, 2:06pm

Boy they love that hominy!

81165

Patrick 2017 Feb 20, 2:07pm

socal2 says

But unions have absolutely no place in the Public Sector.

I agree. Will add this to my platform at https://patrick.net/1303173/2017-02-19-patrick-net-platform

81166 joeyjojojunior 2017 Feb 20, 2:12pm

"But unions have absolutely no place in the Public Sector. It is one of the #1 reasons why California State and Local governments are going broke and our infrastructure is shit - despite very high taxes. The tax payer has no say and public sector unions create a corruption feedback loop with Democrat politicians"

I understand the argument, but the issue isn't unions--it's that the people we elect are so easily corrupted. And it's not a Dem or Rep. issue--local governments are not dominated by either party. People need to pay more attention to local politics and hold school boards, fire boards etc more responsible for controlling costs.

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marcus 2017 Feb 20, 2:13pm

If this were a discussion about postmodern philosophy, I might agree with the OP. But when we are simply communicating with eachother, we need to be able to agree on simple and obvious truths and on what is obviously not true regarding obvious facts and happenings in our agreed upon reality. Without this, we don't function.

For some people, claiming there is no truth is little more than a lame and totally bullshit way of defending the most dishonest leader we have ever seen.

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GNL 2017 Feb 20, 2:38pm

marcus says

For some people, claiming there is no truth is little more than a lame and totally bullshit way of defending the most dishonest leader we have ever seen.

Prove Trump is what you say he is. Who and/or what are you going to use as your truth teller?

81169 Heres Your Card 2017 Feb 20, 2:50pm

YesYNot says

Some things are objective and are either true or false. For example, 2 + 2 = 4 is objectively true.

Other things are subjective, and are neither true nor false. For example, 2 is way cooler than 3.

Some things are objectively true or false, but are unknown. For example, Trump either has syphilis or not. We just don't know.

Trump makes many statements that are objectively false. For example: He claimed that his was the biggest electoral win since Reagan. This is just false. There is no other truth. There are no alternative facts. There is just the truth on the one hand and Trump's lies on the other.

Trump makes other statements that are subjective. For example: He claims that he inherited a big mess. There is no objective definition of what constitutes a mess. So, this is subjective. Other examples would be his statement that America is no longer great and doesn't win.

In many cases, experts agree to a high degree that something is true, but has not been proven. An example would be that humans have contributed to global warming. Experts typically agree based on evidence. Many times statistical evidence is overwhelming. An example would be that a drug trial shows that there is less than 1% chance that the observation was due to chance (P less than 0.01)

Sometimes something has been shown to be very unlikely, but is not accepted by many people including Trump (an example would be immunizations causing autism).

The OP didn't provide much insight, but the topic is interesting and relevant these days.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

Fuck You!! You're an Asshole because Fuck You!! And you're an Asshole!!

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Singlemom 2017 Feb 20, 2:54pm

Here's what no one is saying. It doesn't matter what gold does near term. It's all about the long term. And, if you price your gold in USD, gold is going to go through the roof. Why? Because the USD is going to ZERO. Yes, I said it.

$20,000,000,000,000 in debt and climbing . We are past the point of NO RETURN. Rates have to go up. It will become a vicious cycle with the government paying more and more in interest payments which will require more borrowing (because no one will touch entitlements) which will raise the debt which will raise the payments which will require more borrowing which will raise the debt ...

Seeing the pattern yet?

There is no getting out of this rabbit hole. All of a sudden ... one day you will wake up and a roll of toilet paper will be $20. It will be cheaper if you keep $1 bills as you can wipe your ass with that rather than buy toilet paper.

Actually BUY gold (and food and guns and seeds and ammo and anything else you need along with the means to prevent it from being taken from you).

That's my 2 cents which won't be worth shit.

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marcus 2017 Feb 20, 3:03pm

WorkInProgress says

Prove Trump is what you say he is. Who and/or what are you going to use as your truth teller?

I've watched Trump speak, I've seen the constant lies. Politifact and others have done analysis, lie by lie. You can find all the lies, listed one by one. He lies nearly constantly. Even many that voted for him aren't intellectually dishonest enough to deny this.

You should check it out. IT includes the many true and or mostly true things he says too.

Far more than half of the statements they checked fall in the range "mostly false" to "pants on fire"

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CL 2017 Feb 20, 3:05pm

Singlemom says

20,000,000,000,000 in debt and climbing

Why would this matter? Intragovernmental debt is like 6 trillion of it, and most of the public debt is held by American citizens and corporations, right?

And the debt won't cause inflation anyway.

81173 Heres Your Card 2017 Feb 20, 3:13pm

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hanera 2017 Feb 20, 3:16pm

Gold might be a good investment but why is it better than:

- Treasuries
- Index fund
- Housing
- Stocks

81175 socal2 2017 Feb 20, 3:19pm

I understand the argument, but the issue isn't unions--it's that the people we elect are so easily corrupted. And it's not a Dem or Rep. issue--local governments are not dominated by either party. People need to pay more attention to local politics and hold school boards, fire boards etc more responsible for controlling costs.

In California, pensions are the biggest liability in terms of costs. It is 30% of all tax dollars in some cities. Under current California law, it is impossible to reform pensions because of the "California Rule". That means everyone feels the pain through higher taxes, reduced services and shafted bond-holders - but government employees really don't have to pitch in anything. And any time a municipality or even Governor Brown tried some modest pension reform like preventing spiking of pensions on the last year of service or buying "air time" the unions take them to court.

Thankfully, 2 appellate courts have ruled for sanity saying that pensions can be reformed provided they still provide a "reasonable" benefit. But those cases are now going to the State Supreme court. If California's State Supreme Court is as retarded as Illinois' State Supreme Court, expect to see massive municipal bankruptcies in the near term.

81176 MMR 2017 Feb 20, 3:21pm

They shouldn't care what the pay or benefits are. Just say thank you to their master.

Would that be the union bosses or the employer?

81177 MMR 2017 Feb 20, 3:23pm

I understand the argument, but the issue isn't unions--it's that the people we elect are so easily corrupted

why should people so easily corrupted become unionized.?

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OneTwo 2017 Feb 20, 3:35pm

At no point does it correctly quote him as saying "they let you do that", where Trump points out that he reliably gets consent from women.

That's not consent, that's letting him get away with it after it's already happened. There's a difference.

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FNWGMOBDVZXDNW 2017 Feb 20, 3:43pm

Are you that sensitive that nobody can ask you a direct question?

What are you talking about? You never asked me a direct question, and I never said that I was offended. If you wanted to point out a fact, you'd just make a post saying that Dan's been flagging your posts as ad hominem even though he has you on ignore. The commentary about being a special snowflake with mental illness is clearly ad hominem, juvenile, and boring. If you don't want your posts deleted, focus on making them interesting and keeping the ad hominem stuff flagged with thunderdome. It's really a pretty simple concept.

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FortWayne 2017 Feb 20, 3:47pm

Why did it get deleted? It didn't look like a big deal really, just usual patnet chit chat.

81181 joeyjojojunior 2017 Feb 20, 3:51pm

MMR says

why should people so easily corrupted become unionized.?

Uh, I don't think the elected officials are unionized.

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Patrick 2017 Feb 20, 3:53pm

@Ironman please use "thunderdome" in the title if you are going to directly attack another user.

81183 joeyjojojunior 2017 Feb 20, 3:54pm

I unliked the thread--does the world make sense again?

81184 socal2 2017 Feb 20, 3:57pm

Uh, I don't think the elected officials are unionized.

Democrat politicians in California certainly get campaign funds from public sector unions which they take from us tax payers.

And many politicians are former public sector workers who are collecting fat pensions. So they have a financial incentive to keep the pension schemes going.

81185 joeyjojojunior 2017 Feb 20, 4:03pm

socal2 says

Democrat politicians in California certainly get campaign funds from public sector unions which they take from us tax payers.

And many politicians are former public sector workers who are collecting fat pensions. So they have a financial incentive to keep the pension schemes going.

Yep--so let's implement campaign finance reform. Public election funding like Patrick proposed. No more Koch Bros. No more Soros. No more union donations. That solves the problem.

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CBOEtrader 2017 Feb 20, 4:13pm

https://patrick.net/1303193/2017-02-20-the-us-still-makes-silver-dollars

and released the emails in a strategic fashion to try to sway the election in Trump's favor then?

No. He agreed Russia and 4 other countries all accessed hillary and DC. This is expected with weak security.

Anyone could have leaked. Wikileaks has yet to lie and says it wasn't Russia.

Even if it was russia, how is leaking the truth illegal or even wrong? I appreciate that the world knows about the corruption and election hacking proven in the Wikileaks.

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Patrick 2017 Feb 20, 4:13pm

Yes, I also have a time time figuring out the proper price for gold in fiat dollars. I suppose it's related to the cost of mining.

Index funds and stocks have done well for me.

Singlemom says

Because the USD is going to ZERO.

Sure, the paper dollar has already lost about 95% of the value it had when we backed the dollar with gold and silver.

And yet a silver dollar is worth about the same as ever!

We should use silver dollars again. Everything will simply be promises (credit), and that's not necessarily bad.

81188 joeyjojojunior 2017 Feb 20, 4:23pm

CBOEtrader says

No. He agreed Russia and 4 other countries all accessed hillary and DC

I don't think that's what was implied. Priebus said Trump agreed with the US intelligence agencies conclusions. Unless you have information I'm not aware of, those conclusions were that Russia was behind the DNC hacks, strategically released the information to WikiLeaks in an effort to sway the election.

CBOEtrader says

Even if it was russia, how is leaking the truth illegal or even wrong?

Hacking is illegal. Russia illegally obtained the information.

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FNWGMOBDVZXDNW 2017 Feb 20, 4:46pm

At no point does it correctly quote him as saying "they let you do that", where Trump points out that he reliably gets consent from women.

We've gone around on this one a bit, but here's something I hadn't thought much about earlier: You've been defending Trump by assuming that he meant that the women wanted it or at least didn't object. But Trump never made that defense himself. I could see your point if he made that defense, but he just dismissed the whole thin as 'locker room talk,' and refused to discuss the details. I suspect he didn't because it would have invited even more of a response from women than he got, and would have dragged him into a conversation that would have hurt his chances. IMO, if he couldn't even make the defense, it's on him.

I said a similar thing regarding HRC and TPP. She should have taken a stand on trade in the primary, and addressed the issue head on. She tried to triangulate - basically lying - and everybody knew it. If she couldn't even mount a defense, you can't give her the benefit of the doubt.

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FNWGMOBDVZXDNW 2017 Feb 20, 5:02pm

That makes it sound like you were offended, right??

No. I was just helping with the moderation task. I was not offended.

What?? Did you miss these two questions??

These came after I marked the thread as ad hominem, so even if my feelings had been hurt, they could not have been hurt by questions that came long after I marked the thread as ad hominem. Do you understand that?
Ironman says

Do you think someone logging in and out, and taking someone on and off "ignore" is "normal" behavior, when they already have that person on "ignore"?

I won't comment on whether it is 'normal,' but I'll grant you it is not common. You used to log in and out to respond to my posts when I had you on ignore. I'll also grant you that it is annoying to have someone do that. OTOH, you might ask yourself why you have 'issues' with so many other posters instead of calling them all names.

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Strategist 2017 Feb 20, 5:11pm

"Dumb unions. They did not accept Icahn's offer, and they won't let anyone else accept it either. I'm sure a lot of workers would be ready to accept Icahn's offer.

Now everyone loses. Fucking commies."

Yes, workers should bow down to their "job creators" thanking their lucky stars that anyone would hire them. They shouldn't care what the pay or benefits are. Just say thank you to their master.

So if workers are willing to accept the employers offer, a union can step in and basically say "Sorry, you do not get the job. Let the company go BK"
WTF this is dictatorship.

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zzyzzx 2017 Feb 20, 5:15pm

I unliked the thread--does the world make sense again?

As long as someone buys the building and reopens it as a hotel, preferably without a casino, then yes, It's a waste to let a huge beachfront hotel stay empty like that. Supposedly even ShowBoat is filled every weekend now. That would make sense to me.

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Strategist 2017 Feb 20, 5:29pm