patrick.net

In order to make the question less vague you would have to add some constraints.
For example, you could say you were talking about optimizing food production or optimizing the average standard of living for the current population. If it is the latter, you would have to specify whether or not you want to include the cost of rebuilding infrastructure that might have to be mothballed.

In any case, it is an interesting question in that it could instigate a good discussion. I've given you plenty of opportunity to jump in and add some value, but I don't really think that is your goal.

Ironman says

Is that so difficult?

Ironman, this how informative and interesting your crap posts are: what is better pie or skis? Just answer the question, and don't get it wrong. I don't want to see a multi-word answer, either.

Your posts are evidence that idiocracy didn't go far enough.

Ironman says

Kinda make 400 ppm a nothingburger, doesn't it??

This has nothing to do with why people are worried about climate change. You probably understand this. If you don't there is little help for you. We don't know which it is, because you refuse to answer the question like an obstinate 2 yr old.

YesYNot says

They refuse to answer whether or not THEIR question is in regards to direct physiological constraints or indirect impacts on the environment.

People live in places on this planet where the temperature is near 0, and people live in places where the temperature is near 100. The ideal temperature depends on your desires. The human body can only survive in a range of temperature, if it's too hot, you die, if it's too cold you die. Is this your first go at trying to get through second grade? Holy crap

Hater says

YesYNot says

Would a huge plague that reduced human population by 90% ultimately be good for human life?

Yes! For the remaining 10 percent.

In other words, I asked you a question to help you communicate what you meant by your vague and meaningless question. To my yes or no question you said yes with an exclamation point. Then you qualified it by adding a fragment. By using poor English, your reply was difficult to interpret. Now, you clarify that statement by saying you really did not mean Yes! You meant only for the remaining 10%. In other words, you refused to answer my original question. Why should I or anyone else for that matter answer your question when you will not answer mine?

You guys offered up an ill-posed question that is as useful as 'what is better for humanity, skiing or pie?' Then you discuss a bunch of stuff that has less to do with global warming than the price of tea in China, and you claim victory. This is a useless thread.

By refusing to take part in any meaningful conversation and refusing to discuss the implications of global warming, you deniers are ceding the whole game. I can't take the stupidity any more. I'm out.

I'm adding this story to my list of reasons why I will always use the website instead of an app.

They won't, because it kills their argument for more tax revenue...

Hater says

I ask you true believers, what is the ideal earth temperature for human life in Fahrenheit and what is the ideal level of CO2 in parts per million?

If you COULD answer this simple question you might have more credibility.

Hater says

Is that a good enough answer?

Here's the original question.
HEY YOU says

Would a huge plague that reduced human population by 90% ultimately be good for human life?

You didn't answer it. It's a yes or no question.

I'm super excited for the return of the Pilocene. It's gonna be primitive as f*! Epoch!

Hater says

How are you going to stop the volcanoes from heating up the world?

Apparently in your world 35 billion metric tons of CO2 is less than 1 billion?

Ironman says

You do know that dinosaurs and cavemen ...

Caveman were deeply agrarian needing stable farm conditions to support their massive populations too? That's amazing! They had highly specialized jobs and a stratified society working together in massive collaborative tribes/nations as well, all due to their ability to farm? Wow! So cool. Ironman, you teach us all so much. When are you posting your next paper about pre-historic tribal life?

(Point being: humans can survive 2 degree change, but the world as we know it will become radically different. It's as much as 25meters of sea level rise combined with much more sever droughts and disruptions due to weather. Kiss our large populations goodbye. Humanity will go into a massive period of decline.)

Rew says

humans can survive 2 degree change

Humans can survive much more than that. Perhaps the world can support fewer people, but perhaps overpopulation is the real problem.

Point being, things tend to self-regulate. Climate change, if real, can bring huge business opportunities. Just make sure you are in the right place.

Hater says

Does anyone know what the ideal temp and co2 percentage is for human life.

Human life is dependent on the life around it and current Human societies are tuned to live in conditions on Earth, as they are, right now. Humans can live in large range of different temperatures and CO2 percentages but we are efficiently geared to today. We have adapted and built current human societies here and now with these conditions. Put enough wiggle and wobble in the system, and yes, some humans will die due to the weather. But the majority will die due to the secondary effects on: ag, disease, migrations, sever storms, etc.

Humanity is calibrated for today.

Peter P says

Point being, things tend to self-regulate. Climate change, if real, can bring huge business opportunities. Just make sure you are in the right place.

The same can be said for massive war, famine, and all sorts of human hardship. I don't wish these things to be present so I can capitalize on them.

Edit: You are talking about a decline which may very well be the next human dark age. The power grids may go down. There will only be pockets of well established humanity left, working to claw back to our former glory. Luck, more than anything else, will determine winners and losers here.

Rew says

next human dark age.

Exactly. Life is adaptable, but society is fragile. This is likely to happen at some point. It's really hard for some people to imagine, and they just don't see it as a real possibility. WTF, it's only 4 oC!!!!! There are 20 oC changes outside your house every night!!!!!!

Another dumb ass thread.
Some people don't know that Clinton is not President.
Anything that goes wrong is on Republicans.
It's Trump's fault!

YesYNot says

WTF, it's only 4 oC!!!!! There are 20 oC changes outside your house every night!

Yes. It's a failure to understand the additional energy in the system to get those 2-4 degrees, and what it will generate.
It isn't going to be "Oh gosh it is really hot today", it's going to be:

- Oh wow, our crops are dying out/washed away.
- Where did this new disease come from? (species explosions/migrations/range changes, sanitation/water issues)
- Why are we plagued by an explosion of pest species? (disease/agriculture issues)
- Oh man, all those displaced people! Where are they going to go? (storms/flooding/fire)
- We cannot get X/Y/Z anymore. Trade is so disrupted!

If you could ask the Bronze Age why it ended, it would tell you climate was a huge factor: causing waves of refugees, crop failures, drought, trade disruption, wars, and little by little ... crumble she goes. In short, 2-4 degrees is a stressor humanity really doesn't need or want, regardless of "survival".

Ironman says

Look at that, it was way hotter in the past. Why are humans still alive??

Alive and flourishing ... not the same.

Edit: read above.

Rew says

Oh noes! The enemy is so unfair!

Why is the enemy attacking me?

Thanks for acknowledging that the mainstream media is our enemy. That's very intelligent of you!

Ironman says

Here's a hint, history just might repeat itself...

I think your great great great grandchildren would remember you as someone who willfully did nothing to prevent it, and maybe worse, fiddled while it all burned down.

Is this your reason for voting for Trump? Hasten the collapse and reset?

The argument above boils down to: "humanity is too stupid to figure itself out, so mother nature will."

Oh the greatness we now aspire to. My my.

Ironman says

NORMAL 40 degree ANNUAL temperature swings in YOUR backyard every year.

You really need to read some general climate science on this, and not internet blog, confirmation bias junk.

Ironman says

Mother Nature has ALWAYS been in-charge and in control, to think any human can outdo her is totally foolish.

- What was the size of a potato at the dawn of agriculture versus now?
- Should I stop wearing clothes?
- Should I live outdoors?

You realize, you, your species, the only thing that makes you better than the other things around you, is your ability to shape your environment through tool use and advance social cooperation with other members of your species. Do you get that?

If you don't, the way you vote, and what you believe, you are a bygone archaic form of the species Ironman.

Mother Nature ... we freaking own her right now!

Hater says

Have you no faith in humanity adapting to changing conditions? We have done it before.

We may bounce back, sure, but the changes will be very dramatic and damaging. The suffering will be big. We aren't even working on the issue collectively at any scale right now, worth a hill of beans, in what looks like is coming.

Hater says

Is this what the computer models say?

Climate disruption has been a massive factor in human downfall throughout history. It predates computer models. There is no current model complex enough, to model what scared humans will do, due to 2-4 degree climate stressors, and what those may turn out to be.

All we have are historians : prophets who predict the future by looking backward.

Hater says

Wasn't the bronze age superseded by the age of iron?

How do you KNOW that a couple more degrees of temperature won't turn the world into a tropical paradise?

Iron age: Yes, after huge amounts of humanity and an upward swing collapsed into a dark age.

Paradise: We have never seen large scale climate events lead to anything immediately positive for a highly dominant specialized species. Lizards may take over the earth from mammals is just as likely an event. ;) It's wild speculation. What is immediately true is the next 3-10 generations have a hard road ahead due to us not being smart enough. A far more advanced form of humanity would be dealing with this head on.

Hater says

So what have you done to stop global warming? What can anyone do?

A single person can do very little: I've taken advantage of the things I could get - full efficient vehicles, LED bulbs throughout my home, got rid of my AC, upgraded fridge to energy efficient, commute every day by bus.

The more important thing is for society and nations as a whole to work on this. We need to push for things which aren't wholly economically viable right now ... and develop them so they are (see wind in Texas, as an example)

- Continue to incentivize green tech.
- Push for a distributed power grid, where each home is generating its own power.
- Start a horribly painful process of trying to wean ourself off plastic.

You know, things governments are good at doing.

Hater says

Oh, now I get it. It is not about making the world a better place but putting those damn conservatives in their place.

;)

Rew says

Hey @Rew, give it a try and answer the question, or go 0 for 3 with the alarmists so far...

Your choice.

Already answered above.

Ironman says

But you'll promote it as "TRUTH", right??

You didn't answer the temperature and CO2 level question, so it appears:

You got schooled hard you have no responses to anything I just volleyed your way ...

Rew says

- What was the size of a potato at the dawn of agriculture versus now?

- Should I stop wearing clothes?

- Should I live outdoors?

You realize, you, your species, the only thing that makes you better than the other things around you, is your ability to shape your environment through tool use and advance social cooperation with other members of your species. Do you get that?

If you don't, the way you vote, and what you believe, you are a bygone archaic form of the species Ironman.

Mother Nature ... we freaking own her right now!

... as you appear to deny your very nature.

Ironman, I'll take being an alarmist who believes in humanity over being a defeatist ready to succumb to mother nature, any day.

YesYNot says

Would a huge plague that reduced human population by 90% ultimately be good for human life?

Hater says

Yes!!

OK, so you think that a plague that reduced the human population by 90% would be good for human life. That is a subjective question and your answer reflects your values. If one asked a bunch of different people, they would get different answers. It's important for two reasons (1) it is an example of a subjective question just like your OP. (2) quickly changing the climate could lead to such an extinction event.

Now, if it would be better for human life for something to kill off 90% of the population, is it moral to go ahead and just kill them tomorrow for the betterment of humanity? Should we just start a nuclear war for the betterment of humanity?

Only 89%???

He still loses the popular vote.

Next election will be a referendum on Trump himself. Be afraid Trumpets.

"Still would win against Hillary" "I need more time." -- Slogans for Trump 2020. :)

zzyzzx says

I'm adding this story to my list of reasons why I will always use the website instead of an app.

I don't think uber works wo the app.

Apple got it's users back at the end. Nice feature to have. Most companies roll over.

Peter P says

Climate change, if real, can bring huge business opportunities. Just make sure you are in the right place.

Yes. I've been suggesting Canadian real estate.

MAGA!

Trump will magically fix this, just like

Border Wall

Repeal & Replace

Bring Millions of Manufacturing Jobs Back

Cut Taxes by 42% While Balancing Budget & Eliminating Deficit

Making Sure Goldman Sachs & Wall Street Don't Prey on Working Class

No More American Interventionism and Nation-Building with American Blood/Treasure

MAGA MAGA MAGA MAGA MAGA MAGA!!!!!

Ironman says

But...but... but.... Trump is using the Presidency to make himself more money....

Not the same thing. Not even close. I would not complain about any exPresident getting big speaking fees. Tha'ts not hypocracy in the slightest. We knew Obama was going to make big speaking fees. We also know that it's not a quid pro quo. What do they get in the future for this ? DO you really think this is gratitude to him for favors ? OR do you think maybe he's just going to be the most sought after speaker for the next several years, becasue he's a great speaker, a really intelligent guy and he was a fairly successful President and a class act.

Trumps Presidency only adds to Obama's reputation becasue of how they look side by side. Trump makes Obama look better and better all the time becasue of the comparison.

Trump has billions in highly leveraged real estate that will be affected in epic ways by inflation. meanwhile china wants to please him and he's in their markets in a big way as is his daughter. This is a first for America, having a President in these circumstances. In business for themselves and affecting his wealth in extreme ways while in office with his policies. This is what's stranger than fiction.

Our debt levels in this country are absolutely chilling.

apples to oranges.
the bronze age did not have technology to rescue them...

Rew says

If you could ask the Bronze Age why it ended, it would tell you climate was a huge factor: causing waves of refugees, crop failures, drought, trade disruption, wars, and little by little ... crumble she goes. In short, 2-4 degrees is a stressor humanity really doesn't need or want, regardless of "survival".

Hater says

You asked the question. What does that say about you?

I asked the question to demonstrate that your OP was vague and depended on values. My answer would be that the question is vague, so there is no objective 'best for humanity.' My preference, which I stated in an earlier post, would be to avoid a catastrophic event and for population to decline for other reasons.

I also think that searching for what is 'best for humanity' is not a good way to set policy, because it devalues individual rights (Locke's basis for morality) in favor of maximizing total happiness (Mill's basis). I wrote about this in an earlier post.

Hater says

It could.

In this and other posts, you are implying that nobody knows anything about this. The only way to come to this conclusion is to reject what scientist and science tells us. Just flipping a coin is no way to set policy. Demanding absolute proof before acting is also no way to set policy. Nobody would ever do anything in such a world.

Hater says

why can't any believers tell us what the average global temp and average global co2 should be in an ideal world?

Why doesn't hater know how stupid this argument of his sounds ?

Is he saying warmer with higher Co2, hotter climate, warmer oceans, different coastlines, many species dying off (at least for upcoming millenia) might be a good thing as far as we know ?