patrick.net

Lee was a traitor, by definition.

So were the Founding Fathers, by definition...

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CBOEtrader 2017 May 15, 11:29am

But it does not mean the South had a right to enslave people. So they are still the villains in the story, period. You are simply trying to rewrite history.

Neither did the Union, yet Maryland, Missouri, Delaware, and Kentucky all had slaves during the civil war. OMG the US flag is a symbol of hate!!!!

Great Britain outlawed slavery in 1833, 25 years before our civil war started. Would GB have been justified in starting a war w us to force us to end slavery? Slavery would have ended on its own, albeit slower in the south where it was a larger part of the economy.

The Civil War was fought to free the slaves is about as accurate as Operation Iraqi Freedom was about muslim women's rights.

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fdhfoiehfeoi 2017 May 15, 11:33am

There's nothing to rewrite about the Civil War. The traitorous South killed lots of Americans in order to hold onto slavery, an abomination that only the most immoral people engaged in.

Once again, Dan has proven himself illiterate when it comes to history. Lincoln has multiple recorded speeches stating the war had NOTHING to do with slavery. Slavery was a blip on the radar of this country compared to say, Africa, where is it still widely practiced. Secession was due to unfair taxation and tariffs the feds tried to impose on the south. The war started because the north wouldn't let the south break away from the union(again see Lincoln's speeches), NOT due to slavery. Most of the southern's who have statues, didn't own slaves.

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fdhfoiehfeoi 2017 May 15, 11:36am

Actually, according to our laws, they don't.

Dan, you would make Benedict Arnold proud.

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

- Declaration of Independence

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zzyzzx 2017 May 15, 11:41am

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

Your question was why are they removing them.

Democrats don't want to remind everyone of their past.

83632 socal2 2017 May 15, 12:04pm

ISIS tears down statues and tries to erase "pre-Islamic" history too.

83633 joeyjojojunior 2017 May 15, 12:22pm

"The Civil War was fought to free the slaves is about as accurate as Operation Iraqi Freedom was about muslim women's rights."

The Civil War was fought to keep the country together. The South seceded to keep the right to own slaves.

83634 joeyjojojunior 2017 May 15, 12:25pm

"Secession was due to unfair taxation and tariffs the feds tried to impose on the south. The war started because the north wouldn't let the south break away from the union(again see Lincoln's speeches), NOT due to slavery. Most of the southern's who have statues, didn't own slaves."

OK, please detail exactly which taxes and tariffs caused the South the secede then. When they were enacted, etc.

83635 joeyjojojunior 2017 May 15, 12:38pm

Reading the secession letter, I find it hard to believe that anyone could argue slavery wasn't the cause of the Civil War. But, I'm frequently surprised...

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Dan8267 2017 May 15, 12:43pm

So were the Founding Fathers, by definition...

Yes, but do you hold betraying England on the same level as betraying America?

In any case, the American revolution was far more justifiable than the South's treason.

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Dan8267 2017 May 15, 12:52pm

Slavery would have ended on its own, albeit slower in the south where it was a larger part of the economy.

Terrorism would end on its own, but how many American lives are you willing to sacrifice in the meantime? All rapists stop raping eventually. After all, they eventually die. Does that mean the police should do nothing to stop rapists?

The life of a single slave is worth more than the lives of all slavers. Slavery is a crime against humanity, and slavers are the worst criminals.

The Civil War was fought to free the slaves is about as accurate as Operation Iraqi Freedom was about muslim women's rights.

That's bullshit. The conservative right always tries to rewrite history to state that the Civil War was fought for any reason other than over slavery. The newspapers of the time clearly state that slavery is unequivocally the reason for the South fighting the war. Do you really want me to humiliate you with the countless examples of this?

Once again, Dan has proven himself illiterate when it comes to history. Lincoln has multiple recorded speeches stating the war had NOTHING to do with slavery. Slavery was a blip on the radar of this country compared to say, Africa, where is it still widely practiced.

Another revisionist. Come on, want to get into an evidence war with me?

Dan, you would make Benedict Arnold proud.

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

- Declaration of Independence

What hypocrisy! First of all, the above quote does not justify the South's treason. Second, it does justify the North kicking the South's ass since the "safety and happiness" of the slaves justifies "abolishing" the governments of the South. Third, it would justify a slave revolt killing off all your ancestors before your great grandparents were born. Finally, you are making a lame ass poisoning the well argument. That's a sign of a very weak position.

But hey, if you are a complete hypocrite, then you must support a violent uprising against our current government. And, of course, you must also support Snowden and Manning release of information relevant to the secret actions of the government. I mean, if you didn't, that would be utter hypocrisy. So go on and praise Snowden and Manning.

It's really amazing how far the conservative right will take their lies. They are ridiculous as their cousins, the conservative left.

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Patrick 2017 May 15, 12:53pm

Quigley says

Germany was a haven for Jews for centuries. Might be the higher intelligence bred into the population as Jews intermixed with Germans. I like to think I might have Jewish ancestors.

If you want to know, do the 23 and me thing. It's scarily accurate about Jewish ancestry. My maternal grandfather was Jewish, and they pegged me at 25.6% Jewish.

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CBOEtrader 2017 May 15, 1:02pm

The life of a single slave is worth more than the lives of all slavers. Slavery is a crime against humanity, and slavers are the worst criminals.

What hypocrisy! First of all, the above quote does not justify the South's treason. Second, it does justify the North kicking the South's ass since the "safety and happiness" of the slaves justifies "abolishing" the governments of the South.

You you think GB should have attacked us in1840? What about the dozens of other countries that still had slaves at the time of the civil war? As gross as slavery was, war is worse. Slavery does not justify war. Especially when slavery would be gone from the entire civilized world within 50 years.

Also, i really thought you'd have learned this by now, no war is fought for human rights. Ever. It is always about money/power. The north invaded the south for money/power. They were disproportionately dumping the tax burden on the south and reaping the benefits in the north. The north didnt want their honey-pot to walk away.

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CBOEtrader 2017 May 15, 1:05pm

Terrorism would end on its own, but how many American lives are you willing to sacrifice in the meantime?

Terrorism would end on its own if we stopped bombing people and arming/funding warlords. Doing nothing would be far more effective and morally superior than bombing the entire world.

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CBOEtrader 2017 May 15, 1:06pm

So go on and praise Snowden and Manning.

they are both heroes, imho.

83642 socal2 2017 May 15, 1:20pm

Terrorism would end on its own if we stopped bombing people and arming/funding warlords. Doing nothing would be far more effective and morally superior than bombing the entire world.

Isn't that exactly what Obama did that led to the blitzkrieg of ISIS taking over major cities building their caliphate? It was really "morally superior" to sit back and do nothing while ISIS was committing genocide preying on vulnerable religious minority groups and destroying ancient archaeological sites?

And don't most of the terrorists and warlords use Russian and Chinese weapons like the AK47 that is flooded all over the 3rd world?

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Dan8267 2017 May 15, 1:29pm

rando says

they pegged me at 25.6% Jewish.

Does that mean you pump 74.4% of your gas?

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Patrick 2017 May 15, 1:30pm

Jews don't pump gas?

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Dan8267 2017 May 15, 1:33pm

you think GB should have attacked us in1840?

Straw man argument. I think the North was right to fight the South to end slavery for the exact same reason it would be right today for the U.S. military to take out a slaver regime.

As gross as slavery was, war is worse.

Are you saying that you would not fight a war to prevent you and your family from being made slaves? I highly doubt that you would throw down your arms and let Mohamed take your daughter as a slave.

There are legitimate causes for war. Stopping slavery and genocide are two of them.

Also, i really thought you'd have learned this by now, no war is fought for human rights. Ever. It is always about money/power.

Human rights require power. Are you saying that WWII and the American Revolution were not justified? I'll give you that most of America's military actions aren't justified, but ending slavery in America wasn't one of these unjustified actions.

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Dan8267 2017 May 15, 1:34pm

www.youtube.com/embed/yIC7-vJ0PWk

they are both heroes, imho.

Tell that to everyone on the conservative right including every Republican in Congress.

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Dan8267 2017 May 15, 1:37pm

rando says

Jews don't pump gas?

I heard that stereotype on Howard Stern back in the 1990s. Stern had a lot of funny bits pushing the envelope at the time. I wonder if you could do a show like his today.

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FNWGMOBDVZXDNW 2017 May 15, 1:42pm

Based on...

Based on the fact that the statues were designed and built to celebrate people who fought a war over state's rights to own slaves if they so wanted. They were appropriate for the population of the south at the time. The confederate flag was used by various people to fight the civil rights movement. It's good to remember, but it's not always good to celebrate everything that people celebrated 150 yrs ago. There are a few things today that we universally find morally abhorrent. Our statues should reflect current values as well as honor our history. I don't believe that those confederate statues reflect our current values.

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epitaph 2017 May 15, 1:50pm

socal2 says

ISIS tears down statues and tries to erase "pre-Islamic" history too.

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epitaph 2017 May 15, 1:59pm