patrick.net

I don't think you are an ass, but you may want to check because it seems there is a big giant pole stuck up yours.

Besides taxpayers and business owners aren't victims. The real victims are the people who don't pay taxes and instead just live off the government dole. They will never know the joy of providing for themselves.

Oh please. Taxes on businesses (even small businesses) are laughable because any competent person knows that you can write off almost all of your expenses. Successful people pay 75% of their income in taxes? Riiiiight. Only people far too stupid to run a successful company would pay even a third of that.

This rant is doubly absurd because it pretends that the government doesn't have any involvement in the process of creating businesses. Go start a business in some shit hole without a strong, stable government and tell me how that works. When the local thugs steal all of your merchandise, your deliveries can't be made on time because there are no roads, and your store burns to the ground because there is no fire protection, come tell me how great it is for the government to not be involved.

I successfully co-founded a small business that we ran for several years and eventually sold to private investors. When all was said and done, I paid around 5% of what I earned owning that business in taxes, thanks to generous tax structures like deprecation and deferred income.

I'd never claim that running a successful business is easy -- far from it. But to claim that government is somehow making things so difficult for business is pure bullshit. When a business is having trouble, you can bet that 99 times out of 100 it's the fault of the people running it.

2ndClassCitizen says

I don’t think you are an ass, but you may want to check because it seems there is a big giant pole stuck up yours.
Besides taxpayers and business owners aren’t victims. The real victims are the people who don’t pay taxes and instead just live off the government dole. They will never know the joy of providing for themselves.

I want what you're smoking.

Kevin says

I’d never claim that running a successful business is easy — far from it. But to claim that government is somehow making things so difficult for business is pure bullshit.

I want what HE'S smoking.

2ndClassCitizen says

Kevin says

I’d never claim that running a successful business is easy — far from it. But to claim that government is somehow making things so difficult for business is pure bullshit.

I want what HE’S smoking.

What small business do you own? Unless your business is something illegal, I'd really love to hear you explain how, specifically, government regulation and/or taxes are making a meaningful impact on whether or not you succeed.

Sure Kev,

Right after you explain specifically why government had NOTHING to do with independent pharmacies dropping like flies. How it is no way responsible for not for profit and church run hospitals going the way of the dinosaur. How government intervention had nothing to do with the housing bubble. How government intervention in agriculture is not responsible for higher prices in corn and milk and dozens of other commodities. How government regulations do not make becoming a gun dealer a cruel and unusual punishment (BATF search your house at any time of night or day without a warrant). How government regulations don't make running even a not for profit food co-op out to be a crime (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/05/02/Unconscionable-Police-Raid-on-Familys-Home-and-Organic-Food-CoOp.aspx ). No, being in business is SO MUCH EASIER IN THE USA. We have such a great uncle!

@2nd

Wow. Did Kevin hit a nerve, or what? I thought we were talking about small businesses?

@staynumz

How old are you?

tatupu70 says

@2nd
Wow. Did Kevin hit a nerve, or what? I thought we were talking about small businesses?

small business don't include food co-ops, pharmacies and gun shops?

Nomograph says

I think it’s clear that 2CC is going to feel victimized no matter what. Remember, he feels that something as innocuous as marriage is government tyranny. He has even gone as far as to label himself as a victim in his screen name. It’s who he is and part of his self-identity.
It’s a waste of time to make factual arguments with this type of person.

I don't feel victimized. I just know the score. The true victims are those who do not. The ones who actually think our "leaders" operate in the public's best interest. Those who think government can solve social and economic problems but NEVER create them.

I never said marriage was a form of government tyranny. Why do you have to resort to lies and character assassination? Is that all you have to say?

But thanks for the psychoanalysis. It was worth what we paid for it.

2ndClassCitizen says

small business don’t include food co-ops, pharmacies and gun shops

food co-ops and small independent pharmacies were driven out of business by lower cost, more efficient competition. That's free market at work. Like it or not, Wal-Mart offers what people want--cheap goods.

Porter Stansbury has made some pretty solid economic calls. For instance, he told his investors to short Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae long before they imploded. But that was overall a bogus rant. That 75% number (50% business income tax * 50% estate tax) ignores the simple facts, as pointed out by Kevin. Anyone with a large estate who fails to set up a trust or tax-sheltered structure is just plain stupid. Likewise, businesses get a tremendous number of write-offs and deferrals. A business owner getting slammed by taxes is either making enormous amounts of money, or falls into the Brains/Dynamite/Tissues category.

I know a few small business owners. Their biggest gripe with the government is not the direct tax on profit. It's the insane hoops for covering unemployment, part-time workers and health insurance. A company of 25 people carries nearly the same paperwork burden as a company with 250 people. The rules change every year, consuming endless hours of the owner's lives for no particular benefit to their company. The end result is to bog down companies in legal fees and discourage hiring, both of which are far worse than any tax.

2nd class say:
"Taxes and regulation make business ownership a very tough row to hoe."

I'm sorry that you're having a difficult time keeping up your business as a hoe.

tatupu70 says

2ndClassCitizen says

small business don’t include food co-ops, pharmacies and gun shops

food co-ops and small independent pharmacies were driven out of business by lower cost, more efficient competition. That’s free market at work. Like it or not, Wal-Mart offers what people want–cheap goods.

that's why communities routinely offer tax breaks and other incentives to lure to walmart to their areas.

Walmart is great for communities, they offer excellent health care coverage, it is called MEDICAID. If you are lucky you won't have to work through your unpaid lunch break.

2ndClassCitizen says

Sure Kev,
Right after you explain specifically why government had NOTHING to do with independent pharmacies dropping like flies. How it is no way responsible for not for profit and church run hospitals going the way of the dinosaur. How government intervention had nothing to do with the housing bubble. How government intervention in agriculture is not responsible for higher prices in corn and milk and dozens of other commodities. How government regulations do not make becoming a gun dealer a cruel and unusual punishment (BATF search your house at any time of night or day without a warrant). How government regulations don’t make running even a not for profit food co-op out to be a crime (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/05/02/Unconscionable-Police-Raid-on-Familys-Home-and-Organic-Food-CoOp.aspx ). No, being in business is SO MUCH EASIER IN THE USA. We have such a great uncle!

Oh, ok, so you don't currently and have never run a business. Thanks for sharing!

Kevin says

2ndClassCitizen says

Sure Kev,

Right after you explain specifically why government had NOTHING to do with independent pharmacies dropping like flies. How it is no way responsible for not for profit and church run hospitals going the way of the dinosaur. How government intervention had nothing to do with the housing bubble. How government intervention in agriculture is not responsible for higher prices in corn and milk and dozens of other commodities. How government regulations do not make becoming a gun dealer a cruel and unusual punishment (BATF search your house at any time of night or day without a warrant). How government regulations don’t make running even a not for profit food co-op out to be a crime (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/05/02/Unconscionable-Police-Raid-on-Familys-Home-and-Organic-Food-CoOp.aspx ). No, being in business is SO MUCH EASIER IN THE USA. We have such a great uncle!

Oh, ok, so you don’t currently and have never run a business. Thanks for sharing!

Kev, and graph,

I am so glad that you are so good at diagnosing people from your computer screen. My credentials are not something I wave around in order to support my views. It is not necessary. Truth speaks louder than any credentials or attempts to discredit and assassinate the character of the messenger.

History shows that government has and continues to favor large corporations and make onerous regulations for upstarts. It is not a level playing field. That has nothing to do with being a victim. And the only victims here are those who cannot comprehend who they really are and where they stand in the grand scheme of things.

So by all means, go on with your character assassinations if it makes you feel good and superior. And don't respond with any meaningful dialogue about how government is or isn't working in our best interest.

(by the way feel free to add some credence to your psychoanalysis with your credentials if they are so important to you)

2ndClassCitizen says

I am so glad that you are so good at diagnosing people from your computer screen. (by the way feel free to add some credence to your psychoanalysis with your credentials if they are so important to you)

The only thing said here that could even remotely be construed as psychoanalysis is the statement about you playing the victim, which is in your screen name and you have stated in different posts that you are a victim.

It might be easier to respond with meaningful dialog if the subject were to vary from thread to thread.

So now you're ranting about large corporations, attempting to change the subject because the original premise of this thread was torn to shreds by even a cursory examination of the facts.

Please, then, explain how looser regulations and lower taxes are going to tip the balance in favor of small companies over large. You like bitching about it, so why not explain how things would be better in your alternate system? Please provide some evidence of why this is the case.

Lastly, do you honestly think that the wal-marts, exxon's, and microsoft's of the world wouldn't exist if we simply had lower taxes and fewer regulations on businesses? Are you fucking kidding me?

elliemae says

The only thing said here that could even remotely be construed as psychoanalysis is the statement about you playing the victim, which is in your screen name and you have stated in different posts that you are a victim.
It might be easier to respond with meaningful dialog if the subject were to vary from thread to thread.

Ellie, I was not the one who resorted to Ad Hominem. But thanks for your two cents.

Kevin says

So now you’re ranting about large corporations, attempting to change the subject because the original premise of this thread was torn to shreds by even a cursory examination of the facts.
Please, then, explain how looser regulations and lower taxes are going to tip the balance in favor of small companies over large. You like bitching about it, so why not explain how things would be better in your alternate system? Please provide some evidence of why this is the case.
Lastly, do you honestly think that the wal-marts, exxon’s, and microsoft’s of the world wouldn’t exist if we simply had lower taxes and fewer regulations on businesses? Are you fucking kidding me?

Kev,

Call it what you will, now you are standing up for the very same system that created our health care mess, that blew the housing bubble, that is bankrupting social security and medicare, that is fighting needless foreign wars, that gave the large corporations their effective monopolies by onerous regulations and unfair incentives. Bravo! You have made George W. Bush proud.

If you can't see that large corporations (through government lobbying efforts) have stacked the deck in their favor at the expense of the consumer and the would be entrepreneur then.... this is the system you deserve. Hope you enjoy it while it lasts. You can't create money out of nothing forever.

You're really not making any sense.

Original premise: Government hates small business and has policies that harm them

Me: Prove it

You: You're blind! Why can't you see how the whole world is out to get us!

I asked reasonable questions: Show me how small businesses are being harmed. You avoid answering the question because, well, it's an indefensible position. I'm speaking from experience and you're just ranting. Why not try something constructive?

I'm most certainly not "standing up for the very same system...". I have *plenty* of problems with current government policies and lots of elements of the status quo -- but I *completely disagree* that reducing regulation and lowering taxes would have a material impact on small businesses, which is the point of this thread.

So, again, I ask -- if you believe that taxes and regulation are what causes small businesses to have trouble, please EXPLAIN HOW. "It jut does" is not an answer.

Kev,

Here's just a few. Payroll taxes/regulations, unemployment/health care benefit requirements, and minimum wages. All of which make the cost of labor so onerous that many entrepreneurs decide not to even try. That is the point of the thread. Government regulations are actually preventing new businesses from even starting let alone succeeding.

AdHominem says

Kev,
Here’s just a few. Payroll taxes/regulations, unemployment/health care benefit requirements, and minimum wages. All of which make the cost of labor so onerous that many entrepreneurs decide not to even try. That is the point of the thread. Government regulations are actually preventing new businesses from even starting let alone succeeding.

So, again, you're making assertions without any basis in fact.

1. Payroll taxes/regulations (why are these things lumped together).

Payroll taxes add about 7% to the cost of labor for the employer. I'll concede this point, but it's a minor one, particularly since it's more than offset by all of the infrastructure that employers get free use of out of the common tax pool that is grossly disproportionate to their share of income tax, and it's also only a real issue at the bottom rung of the pay ladder (see my notes on minimum wage)

2. Unemployment / health care benefit "requirements" (not sure why these are lumped together either)

Health care benefits aren't "required" for small businesses. Businesses offer them so that they can compete with other companies offering similar benefits. How is this government's doing?

3. Minimum wage

You're kidding, right? Minimum wage is only dealt with at the very bottom of the employment ladder, in crap jobs that we absolutely don't want to be creating here. Minimum wage "hurts" large, low-wage employers (the wal marts and mcdonald's) infinitely more than any small business.

AdHominem says

Government regulations are actually preventing new businesses from even starting let alone succeeding.

Huh what how now?

Again, have you started a business? "Government regulations" (as in, acquiring a business license and filling out paper work) costs, at most, a thousand bucks including what you pay the lawyer to handle the paperwork.

Compare that to the cost of getting real estate, producing advertising, getting initial inventory, R&D, etc.

It's not even close.

Government puts a MUCH larger burden on a running, successful company than on a company just starting -- and I challenge you to show me any company that has failed because of taxes or "regulation".

Well, I suppose there is my prostitution ring. We failed because the government "regulated" my industry and made it impossible to do business!

Independent pharmacies are dropping right and left. Even in rural areas where there is essentially no competition. The culprit? Government gave medicare, medicaid and insurance companies a monopoly on what, how and when pharmacies get paid. Many business owners have decided enough is enough. Hope you enjoy walmart and walgreens!

AdHominem says

Hope you enjoy walmart and walgreens

At least you understand why, even if you won't admit it. It's free market at its most obvious. Only the strong survive. And people have obviously made their choice--they give lip service to wanting Mom and Pop stores, but they give their $$ to Wal-Mart and Walgreens. Low cost seems to win in the end.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Hope you enjoy walmart and walgreens

At least you understand why, even if you won’t admit it. It’s free market at its most obvious. Only the strong survive. And people have obviously made their choice–they give lip service to wanting Mom and Pop stores, but they give their $$ to Wal-Mart and Walgreens. Low cost seems to win in the end.

Well, call around for a cash price on medications. More often than not mom and pop have a better price on your medicine (or at least can work with you to find a cheaper solution).

Walmart and Walgreens make most of their money on the front end, the pharmacy is just a draw to get you in the door.

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Hope you enjoy walmart and walgreens

At least you understand why, even if you won’t admit it. It’s free market at its most obvious. Only the strong survive. And people have obviously made their choice–they give lip service to wanting Mom and Pop stores, but they give their $$ to Wal-Mart and Walgreens. Low cost seems to win in the end.

Well, call around for a cash price on medications. More often than not mom and pop have a better price on your medicine (or at least can work with you to find a cheaper solution).
Walmart and Walgreens make most of their money on the front end, the pharmacy is just a draw to get you in the door.

And this is true with or without medicare and medicaid. When you have a company that can afford to use a product as a loss leader, it's going to kill any business that is based on the product that they're taking the loss on.

*all* mom and pop stores, of all stripes, started dropping as the big box retailers came onto the scene. Established large companies are the single biggest barrier to starting a new business.

So, how would lower taxes and less regulation allow mom and pop stores to thrive next to wal-mart?

Kevin says

So, how would lower taxes and less regulation allow mom and pop stores to thrive next to wal-mart?

Straw man. But who benefits more from the high cost of payroll, unemployment, health care regulations? Mom and Pa who need to spend a disproportionate amount of time money and effort on keeping up with the law or Walmart who has a division that probably lobbies to change the law to their liking?

As an aside; my doctor joked today we will never go to war with China. The president would never allow Walmart to loose its supply chain.

AdHominem says

Kevin says

So, how would lower taxes and less regulation allow mom and pop stores to thrive next to wal-mart?

Straw man. But who benefits more from the high cost of payroll, unemployment, health care regulations? Mom and Pa who need to spend a disproportionate amount of time money and effort on keeping up with the law or Walmart who has a division that probably lobbies to change the law to their liking?

Nobody benefits from it -- but the big companies are impacted by it far more. Wal mart can squeeze production costs further and further, but they can't budge on labor costs.

If you got rid of minimum wage, it would only make it cheaper for wal mart to operate while having a deflationary effect on the overall economy. Since people would make less they'd have to buy at cheaper stores (that is, wal mart)

If you loosened regulations (and I'm still waiting for some specifics here) on how these companies operate, wal mart would be paying a lot more money because they have many more buildings to deal with, more imports to deal with, and more people to deal with.

In short, lowering taxes and loosening up regulations would just make the wal marts stronger.

I strongly encourage you to start a business some day. If you have such an awesome product idea that government is going to represent a significant burden for you, it must truly be an amazing idea.

Kevin says

AdHominem says

Kev,

Here’s just a few. Payroll taxes/regulations, unemployment/health care benefit requirements, and minimum wages. All of which make the cost of labor so onerous that many entrepreneurs decide not to even try. That is the point of the thread. Government regulations are actually preventing new businesses from even starting let alone succeeding.

So, again, you’re making assertions without any basis in fact.
1. Payroll taxes/regulations (why are these things lumped together).
Payroll taxes add about 7% to the cost of labor for the employer. I’ll concede this point, but it’s a minor one, particularly since it’s more than offset by all of the infrastructure that employers get free use of out of the common tax pool that is grossly disproportionate to their share of income tax, and it’s also only a real issue at the bottom rung of the pay ladder (see my notes on minimum wage)
2. Unemployment / health care benefit “requirements” (not sure why these are lumped together either)
Health care benefits aren’t “required” for small businesses. Businesses offer them so that they can compete with other companies offering similar benefits. How is this government’s doing?
3. Minimum wage
You’re kidding, right? Minimum wage is only dealt with at the very bottom of the employment ladder, in crap jobs that we absolutely don’t want to be creating here. Minimum wage “hurts” large, low-wage employers (the wal marts and mcdonald’s) infinitely more than any small business.
AdHominem says

Government regulations are actually preventing new businesses from even starting let alone succeeding.

Huh what how now?
Again, have you started a business? “Government regulations” (as in, acquiring a business license and filling out paper work) costs, at most, a thousand bucks including what you pay the lawyer to handle the paperwork.
Compare that to the cost of getting real estate, producing advertising, getting initial inventory, R&D, etc.
It’s not even close.
Government puts a MUCH larger burden on a running, successful company than on a company just starting — and I challenge you to show me any company that has failed because of taxes or “regulation”.
Well, I suppose there is my prostitution ring. We failed because the government “regulated” my industry and made it impossible to do business!

Health care benefits not required? Depends on what state. Kevin I know you just don't want to admit that the mass of regulations put forth by us congress and government agencies is a burden and deterrent to entrepreneurs in this country. As such I don't really care to waste my time trying to convince you. Have a nice nap.

AdHominem says

Health care benefits not required? Depends on what state

Funny, most states (possibly all of them, I've not examined all laws) that require employers to offer health insurance require only *large* employers to do so.

AdHominem says

Kevin I know you just don’t want to admit that the mass of regulations put forth by us congress and government agencies is a burden and deterrent to entrepreneurs in this country. As such I don’t really care to waste my time trying to convince you. Have a nice nap.

I *am* an entrepreneur and I *have* started a successful company as well as holding leading positions at several other small companies.

None of these companies were burdened by a "mass of regulations", and anyone who has actually started a business would know this! Companies don't succeed or fail because of government regulations, they succeed or fail because of the people who are running them.

Kev,

I can name at least one that does require all employers "offer" health insurance. But since you are so smart I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Kev says; "Companies don’t succeed or fail because of government regulations..."

HMMM. Lets see: GM "too big to fail" Bear Stearns "not too big to fail" shall I go on? Sounds like government actually CHOOSES who will fail or succeed.

AdHominem says

Kev,
I can name at least one that does require all employers “offer” health insurance. But since you are so smart I’m sure you’ll figure it out.
Kev says; “Companies don’t succeed or fail because of government regulations…”
HMMM. Lets see: GM “too big to fail” Bear Stearns “not too big to fail” shall I go on? Sounds like government actually CHOOSES who will fail or succeed.

Neither of those companies failed because of regulation. Bear Stearns failed because of the lack of it.

Both of those companies and many others "succeeded" to profit at taxpayers expense. It was lack of enforcement of sensible laws, an unsound monetary policy, and too much stupid and corrupt regulation combined that allowed and allows big corporations to survive and while stifling competition. All this provided by the corpo-government symbiosis that has continued for over 100 years, gaining strength with the creation of the FED and given new meaning to corruption during the FDR years. But I would say government first began to be too big during Lincoln's time. That is why he is such a hero to the elites. He made all this "progress" possible by using the federal government to suppress state's rights and the 10th Amendment.

But now we are really getting off topic.