patrick.net

Kevin says

We don’t “need” a domestic auto industry any more than we “need” a domestic manufacturer of cheap plastic toys.
Obviously we still need cars in most areas, but over time the need is less and less.
We could save a lot of tax dollars by favoring pedestrian communities and co-locating residential and commercial zones. The century old urban / suburban split is bad for taxpayers, bad for the environment, and bad for quality of life.
The irrational protectionism of the auto industry needs to stop. We need policies that favor what’s best for the whole country, not what’s best for a small group of companies.
4X says

This post is directed at Toyota, Honda, BMW, Lexus, Mercedes and Nissan drivers….what makes you think you can live in our country and buy foreign vehicles?

The constitution.

You always leave me lost with your justifications...wouldnt having the #1 manufacturer of toys in the USA equate to more jobs?

Why should we just sit back and let jobs leave our country?

Kevin says

Troy says

Still, wealth creation is wealth creation, and the value of an automobile is well above the cost of its individual parts.

Not all wealth creation is the same.
I couldn’t disagree more about the value of an automobile.
The suburban commute is responsible for every dollar we’ve spent in Iraq and Afghanistan, the housing crash, and the health care mess (we’re fat because we live in the suburbs).

Again, what about all the manufacturing, service, parts, distribution, sales jobs created by FORD and GM?......yes, Japanes manufacturers do create the same jobs but on a smaller scale her in the US. Toyota employs 7,000 Americans while GM employs 38,000 and Ford employs 70,000 Americans.

Doesnt this count toward you making a principled decision to support your fellow American?....or is this economic downturn ok in your eyes?

Troy says

Wealth creation like manufacturing line jobs suck. Much better if we were all accountants, doctors, lawyers, teachers, dancers, professional sports players, game programmers, philosophers, firemen, soldiers, gummint employees, etc.
We can continue to have the world ship us their wealth and we can just continue sending them IOUs on our future production of goods and services. Well, mostly services, since we aren’t going to have much in the way of intermediate goods this century.
It was rather embarrassingly late in life that I learned about the Three-Sector modeling of the economy.
Wealth can take many forms, but in the end there’s only production, consumption, and spoilage, and every economy has to net out these quantities, to the extent natural resources are lost from this cycling of physical goods and human services.

thanks for sharing....does this mean that our manufacturing base means nothing to our economy since we are now shifting into the 3rd phase which focuses on services?

What happens when businesses OFFSHORE all services to India, Mexico and other 3rd world countries?

4X says

As her husband, as a man…I will never let her buy another foreign vehicle so long as we are together. This vehicle was bought prior to our marriage, it is still running and in good condition so it does not make financial sense for us to get ourselves in debt again so that I can prove a point.

Anyone?

As her husband - as a man... you won't "let" her... so you can prove a point?

I believe that you've proven your point well. 'nuff said.

Why start with $20K car? Why not start with $50M fighter plane? Much more "bang for buck" there, we can just buy Chinese or Russian planes and close down our F-35 and other programs. As long as we are talking about why produce ANYTHING here, I mean really......

We are heading into being Squanderville precisely because of short-term thinking like that, all about consuming, and trading away our future. Here's a nice video about 3 minutes about it:

Squanderville v. Thriftville

elliemae says

4X says

As her husband, as a man…I will never let her buy another foreign vehicle so long as we are together. This vehicle was bought prior to our marriage, it is still running and in good condition so it does not make financial sense for us to get ourselves in debt again so that I can prove a point.

Anyone?
As her husband - as a man… you won’t “let” her… so you can prove a point?
I believe that you’ve proven your point well. ’nuff said.

Hmmm...I take it your a feminist and believe that the MANS role in the family has changed simply because you now work. That isnt the case in all families, any family for that matter. Everyone has a role in the household, be proud of yours and try not to look at statements like these as demeaning. ........regardless of what any feminist may want to believe being wife is not always secondary to being a husband. But, in the end women will always blame the guy when there is not food on the table and women will always be blamed when the children behave poorly. Maybe if you had a MAN instead of a PARTNER you could understand these views. I understand, a feminist doesnt want a MAN because she is the MAN and there is not one thing a MAN can tell her about life because SHE can stand on HER own two feet without him. Therefore any MAN that gets with a feminist is a PARTNER.

Here is my point, I am going to LEAD my household and ensure my families success along with my wife. I have let her know that my principles come first and that involves:

1. The protection of our family
2. Professing our love for our family
3. Providing for our family

Buying FORD and GM products ensures that our children have opportunity here in America when they grow up.

YES, I wont LET her ruin our families chances at success simply because she doesnt have principles and SHE wont LET me ruin our families home life simply because I am a MAN.

You can dis all auto manufaturers as far as I care. I fix them ALL. People seem to just love the Asian cars, but frankly they are overrated tinny little pieces of crap after a couple of years. The euro cars are better built but boy are they expensive, and they are really expensive to service- and guess what they do break down too. When they do you better have a good credit line. American cars are vastly improved from the dark days of the of the late seventies and early eighties. Plus you can get some great deals on one a couple of years old. Try to find good deals on a toy or Honda.

The fact is when this country exports products it spurs the economy more than anything else. When you buy imports, you stimulate another countries economy. When we get foreigners money into this country we prosper. Simple as that. Government spending not so much. It is just an exercise in a dimishing return- it's all our money. Nothing additional. That's why spending a trillion a year on defense is moronic- hell, we can't even win a war and we sent our cash so that we look like good guys. Bullcrap! Our foreign policy should be simple- don't mess with us or we'll f#*% you up! Bomb the crap out of them and leave their contry in shambles. And don't make us tell you twice. Now if we could just get 'em pay us not to use bullits and bombs on them. Ha, then we'd be getting their money instead of the other way around.

One other thing. How is it that we let ourselves be bamboozled into selling our natural resources dirt cheap to some other country like japan or china? Neither has didly for natural resources. But they enrich their countries and are impoverishing ours with the raw materials we've practically given them. How lame is that? How unamerican is that? This land is my land, this land is your land.......

4X says

You always leave me lost with your justifications…wouldnt having the #1 manufacturer of toys in the USA equate to more jobs?

"Jobs" is not what's important. Yes, I'd much rather have 1 Software Engineer than 5 factory workers, because that 1 software engineer contributes more wealth to the society than 20 factory workers do.

And, yeah, I also support taxing that engineer to help pay to support the factory workers who now have to seek employment elsewhere.

You can't be number 1 at everything, period, and it is idiotic to attempt to do so. China is already in the process of being domestically driven, and we simply can not compete with that -- nor should we try!

4X says

Again, what about all the manufacturing, service, parts, distribution, sales jobs created by FORD and GM?……yes, Japanes manufacturers do create the same jobs but on a smaller scale her in the US. Toyota employs 7,000 Americans while GM employs 38,000 and Ford employs 70,000 Americans.

I maintain that the net effect of the automobile at present is a drain on the economy. We would be better off financially with a robust public transportation system. Less employment? Perhaps. But also much lower costs. Your focus on "jobs" is exactly the kind of idiocy that got us into the current mess, and it's why we have bizarre policies that favor the wal marts of the world.

Kevin says

Yes, I’d much rather have 1 Software Engineer than 5 factory workers, because that 1 software engineer contributes more wealth to the society than 20 factory workers do.

Sorta. Software is generally a form of capital wealth, the produced means of production.

The reason we pay so much for software is because it does have this productivity benefit, but one must always keep in mind where the end wealth creation really is.

Wealth is that which provides services that satisfy human needs and wants of utility.
Nobody wants to have a spreadsheet or RDBMS console in their face, these are just part of the means of production of the actual wealth.

But just like light manufacturing, much software development can EASILY be exported to low wage areas like India and China, knocking the generous gross margins enjoyed by US-based software developers.

You can't eat a CD ROM, and an .EXE file isn't going to get you to the doctor's office (though of course software is becoming a replacement capital good for a lot of brick & mortar commerce infrastructure).

Maybe if you had a MAN instead of a PARTNER you could understand these views. I understand, a feminist doesnt want a MAN because she is the MAN and there is not one thing a MAN can tell her about life because SHE can stand on HER own two feet without him. Therefore any MAN that gets with a feminist is a PARTNER.

LOL. Neanderthal, represent!

I maintain that the net effect of the automobile at present is a drain on the economy. We would be better off financially with a robust public transportation system. Less employment? Perhaps. But also much lower costs.

Yes, the car economy is something of a broken-window fallacy. A bus system that ran buses every 5 minutes is MUCH more usable than the 30-minute system we have here in the Bay Area. I'm paying $6/day whether my car runs or not, but in Tokyo for the same outlay I had total run of the city. It was awesome.

Maybe if you had a MAN instead of a PARTNER you could understand these views. I understand, a feminist doesnt want a MAN because she is the MAN and there is not one thing a MAN can tell her about life because SHE can stand on HER own two feet without him. Therefore any MAN that gets with a feminist is a PARTNER.

4X says

1. The protection of our family
2. Professing our love for our family
3. Providing for our family

I'm just thinking out loud here - I'd rather be with a man because I wanted him around than because I couldn't live without his financial dominance, brute force, etc. I actually was married to a man who believed that it was his job to provide financially 100% to the household and make all of the financial decisions. I had refused to buy a house we couldn't afford on my income alone, and at that time he had been angry about that because it challenged his status. But when he wasn't working for over a year and my paycheck kept us afloat. While we didn't maintain our former lifestyle, we still met our essential bills.
And no, 4x, I didn't rub it in and demand respect because I was the breadwinner at the time. That's because we were partners.

http://consumerist.com/2010/02/pontiac-vibe-owners-dont-laugh-at-your-toyota-owning-friends.html

"Just letting you know that today I received a recall letter regarding the Toyota recall. This came as a surprise to me since I don't OWN a Toyota vehicle. It turns out that the GM-made Pontiac Vibe is essentially a Toyota Matrix under the hood - and apparently in the pedals as well! GM Canada is calling in all Pontiac Vibes to help take care of the issue. Just thought I'd let you know!"

BUY AMERICAN!

deanrite says

You can dis all auto manufaturers as far as I care. I fix them ALL. People seem to just love the Asian cars, but frankly they are overrated tinny little pieces of crap after a couple of years. The euro cars are better built but boy are they expensive, and they are really expensive to service- and guess what they do break down too. When they do you better have a good credit line. American cars are vastly improved from the dark days of the of the late seventies and early eighties. Plus you can get some great deals on one a couple of years old. Try to find good deals on a toy or Honda.
The fact is when this country exports products it spurs the economy more than anything else. When you buy imports, you stimulate another countries economy. When we get foreigners money into this country we prosper. Simple as that. Government spending not so much. It is just an exercise in a dimishing return- it’s all our money. Nothing additional. That’s why spending a trillion a year on defense is moronic- hell, we can’t even win a war and we sent our cash so that we look like good guys. Bullcrap! Our foreign policy should be simple- don’t mess with us or we’ll f#*% you up! Bomb the crap out of them and leave their contry in shambles. And don’t make us tell you twice. Now if we could just get ‘em pay us not to use bullits and bombs on them. Ha, then we’d be getting their money instead of the other way around.
One other thing. How is it that we let ourselves be bamboozled into selling our natural resources dirt cheap to some other country like japan or china? Neither has didly for natural resources. But they enrich their countries and are impoverishing ours with the raw materials we’ve practically given them. How lame is that? How unamerican is that? This land is my land, this land is your land…….

Exactly the point of friggin post.......but everyone continues to buy imports.

Kevin says

4X says

And, yeah, I also support taxing that engineer to help pay to support the factory workers who now have to seek employment elsewhere.

You can’t be number 1 at everything, period, and it is idiotic to attempt to do so. China is already in the process of being domestically driven, and we simply can not compete with that — nor should we try!

I maintain that the net effect of the automobile at present is a drain on the economy. We would be better off financially with a robust public transportation system. Less employment? Perhaps. But also much lower costs. Your focus on “jobs” is exactly the kind of idiocy that got us into the current mess, and it’s why we have bizarre policies that favor the wal marts of the world.

Your talking astrophysics to a mother***** wino, let me ask pointed questions because I am clearly not undestanding your points.

1. What do you mean by China is in the process of being domestically driven?
2. Why wouldnt we want to compete with and crush them?
3. How did my focus on “jobs” become the kind of idiocy that got us into the current mess? Are you saying we should focus on the quality of the jobs versus the quantity?.....because if so, I think a majority of the plant workers at GM are making 20-25/hour. That is a fairly decent wage that Walmart Managers can make after 10 years of service. Explain your point?

elliemae says

I’m proud to be able to remain in the US, unlike the rest of you traitors. HA! I say! HA! HA! HA! I’ll joyfull laugh at all of you as you drive past me, blissfully unaware of your impending deportation, as I continue to remain on a first name basis at the GM dealership repair shop.

Not, GM makes vehicles that are just as sound as Toyota....Cadillac, Buick, GMC, Chevy are some of the most top rated vehicles. It your perception that needs to change...

Cadillac Escalade, CTS have been top rated for the past 10 years now...you just cant afford them and choose to buy Honda, Toyota products. ;)

I wink because i know you own a GM, because you told me so in previous posts.

elliemae says

http://consumerist.com/2010/02/pontiac-vibe-owners-dont-laugh-at-your-toyota-owning-friends.html
“Just letting you know that today I received a recall letter regarding the Toyota recall. This came as a surprise to me since I don’t OWN a Toyota vehicle. It turns out that the GM-made Pontiac Vibe is essentially a Toyota Matrix under the hood - and apparently in the pedals as well! GM Canada is calling in all Pontiac Vibes to help take care of the issue. Just thought I’d let you know!”
BUY AMERICAN!

Your missing my point on how buying Toyota worsens our economy since the profits, wage paying jobs are held overseas.

Troy says

Many foreign vehicles provide design and/or manufacturing jobs, like the Subaru line in Indiana.

Interesting enough! The Japanese simply copy the designs from the Germans/Italians and made em cheaper. Somewhere down the line we should do the same.

deanrite says

You can dis all auto manufaturers as far as I care. I fix them ALL. People seem to just love the Asian cars, but frankly they are overrated tinny little pieces of crap after a couple of years. The euro cars are better built but boy are they expensive,

Rather remarkable how many "Vintage 80s" BMW 318-325s I still see on the road. They still get pretty good gas milage 30-35 and the enginees still purr even after 300K miles. Not a bad looking car either. I think we could make a no frills car like that and sell them like hotcakes. Not a 2010 BMW clone .. just simple plain-vanilla kind of car that runs.

elliemae says

Maybe if you had a MAN instead of a PARTNER you could understand these views. I understand, a feminist doesnt want a MAN because she is the MAN and there is not one thing a MAN can tell her about life because SHE can stand on HER own two feet without him. Therefore any MAN that gets with a feminist is a PARTNER.

4X says

1. The protection of our family
2. Professing our love for our family
3. Providing for our family

I’m just thinking out loud here - I’d rather be with a man because I wanted him around than because I couldn’t live without his financial dominance, brute force, etc. I actually was married to a man who believed that it was his job to provide financially 100% to the household and make all of the financial decisions. I had refused to buy a house we couldn’t afford on my income alone, and at that time he had been angry about that because it challenged his status. But when he wasn’t working for over a year and my paycheck kept us afloat. While we didn’t maintain our former lifestyle, we still met our essential bills.
And no, 4x, I didn’t rub it in and demand respect because I was the breadwinner at the time. That’s because we were partners.

Your not LETTING your husband buy an overpriced house is very similar to me no LETTING my wife buy a Toyota. It is all based on making sound financial decisions. In my case, I dont want to suppor the Japanese economy, I want to support the economy here in the USA. I am a partner to my wife, except when something steps on my principles as a man.will.....I just accept the fact that men and women have different roles in the household, and sometimes these roles are reversed.

I just finished cleaning the house, doing the dishes and rocking my son to sleep....all after a 12 hour day in which my wife simply came home, made dinner, bath the kids and went to sleep. Each role is as equally difficult, but when decisions have to be made our families success will be judged by my decisions. If we go homeless today, everyone on this thread will say to me "get a job". If the house goes unkept, everyone will say "She keeps a dirty household". Why? Because at the lowest of levels we are still man and wife, each with our very own role.

Nomograph says

You can make the same ridiculous statement about any imported item that competes with a similar domestically produced product: Wine, hammers, coffee mugs, shoes, pencils, and any other widget you can think of. Where do you think the gasoline that runs your American vehicle comes from?
You purchase foreign goods on a daily basis, so please pack your bags sir.

Too much polution as the tree huggers say, we dont want to kill off the spotted owl or some worm...
Back inthe 50s we were exporting 50% of our oil to the world. 20 years later importing was much cheaper, we certainly didnt run out of domestic oil.

Nomograph says

4X says

what makes you think you can live in our country and buy foreign vehicles?

You can make the same ridiculous statement about any imported item that competes with a similar domestically produced product: Wine, hammers, coffee mugs, shoes, pencils, and any other widget you can think of. Where do you think the gasoline that runs your American vehicle comes from?
You purchase foreign goods on a daily basis, so please pack your bags sir.

Good point. However, my point still stands that America needs to strive to be the worlds #1 supplier of manufactured or raw goods. That being said, Troys points on three-sector modeling make a lot of sense in that we have moved away from the second sector which focuses on manufacturing and into the third sector which focuses on services. However, I dont think that the three-sector model took into account the phenomenom known as OFFSHORING.

Pack your bags and get ready to join me.....because your job wont be available for much longer.

4X says

elliemae says

I’m proud to be able to remain in the US, unlike the rest of you traitors. HA! I say! HA! HA! HA! I’ll joyfull laugh at all of you as you drive past me, blissfully unaware of your impending deportation, as I continue to remain on a first name basis at the GM dealership repair shop.

Not, GM makes vehicles that are just as sound as Toyota….Cadillac, Buick, GMC, Chevy are some of the most top rated vehicles. It your perception that needs to change…
Cadillac Escalade, CTS have been top rated for the past 10 years now…you just cant afford them and choose to buy Honda, Toyota products.
I wink because i know you own a GM, because you told me so in previous posts.

So - Chevy only builds quality vehicles for the elite? That's a great business model. Probably what has made them #1.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/02/25/MNGF1C6PT1.DTL&tsp=1

Oh, I get it. 'cause they're better than we are.

thomas.wong1986 says

Back inthe 50s we were exporting 50% of our oil to the world. 20 years later importing was much cheaper, we certainly didnt run out of domestic oil.

jeez, dude. I don't know where you get your facts, but its not the reality the rest of us seem to live in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

-

to the main point of the article, lets just take it one step further: why do we need any manufacturing base at all? ship it all overseas, what good is it anyway to make stuff here? its just stuff that we could get cheaper when its made somewhere else that makes it cheaper.

then, if things get bad for... whatever reason... connected, or not... to not having a solid manufacturing base that allows people to live with a decent standard of living, you know, afford things, we can just follow Jonathan's advice:

http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

Yes, one that is with out Government intervention. Other than possible tariffs for protectionism, if it's called for. But if people are willing to pay as much, if not more for foreign products, after at least import tariffs are imposed. Then it is a bad reflection on the Auto business and needs to be culled by the natural process of Free Market forces, replacing them with a better suited brand, people trust.

What I would truly like to see, is the Auto industry become a platform of modular, interchangeable, components. With a standard that they must conform to, but as motley as Computer hardware vendors and manufacturers.

I see an industry like that creating a Boom greater than Tech stocks could have only dreamed of being.

Tenouncetrout says

Yes, one that is with out Government intervention.

...

With a standard that they must conform to...

Sorry, I'd just like to ask... there seem to be a lot of contradictions in your post and I'd like to check in.

In the lines above you mention gov intervention in the context of being a bad thing, something to be avoided. But then slightly later you recommend that the auto industry have a 'standard that they must conform to' - where do you think this 'standard' will come from and how do you think it'll be enforced? Also, if the mythical 'free market' is to show the best doesn't that rule out tariffs?

And I'd like to side with you on the other idea - the 'modular personal vehicle' - its a neat idea - but I just can't. I think a system like that would be a boon only to the legal industry who would reap the benefits of trying to sort through what would probably be a nightmare system trying to figure out responsibility for failures. I think the 'free market' forces, particularly if unregulated, would tend toward producing cheap parts that wouldn't really work well with each other. I mean, its whats pretty much happened with computers, right? Also, this old gag comes to mind:

http://www.snopes.com/humor/jokes/autos.asp

Tenouncetrout says

I see an industry like that creating a Boom greater than Tech stocks could have only dreamed of being.

Nah, cars are mostly consumption and not wealth-creating capital like computers and networks.

By Government intervention I mean the government giving any company money to stay afloat. Or intervening where a company has an unfair advantage over any company.

By having standards in a Modular Auto Car industry, that's not any different than standards that are in any industry.

There's a whole industry in transportation that has been locked in a bottle in the U.S. since Henry Ford first fired up an assembly plant. The Big Three have controlled the industry by both owning and setting the standard. Toyota is already setting standards on their components, to make them interchangeable between different models, and Car Genre even.

We should be able to pick and chose power sources, and types, from electric to hybrid to gas to what ever competitive industry can dream off, that passes Safety standards, and fit to standard form factors. Match them up with Chassis, Interior, and Body options from multiple companies.

Kit Car industry if you will, but with an ISO support, instead of guys in body shop with sheet metal and hammers pounding out one offs. Then bolting it to a Pontiac Fierro.

As far as legality of who is responsible for the finished product when the end user eventually sets in the seat and turns the key for that first time? Well just like in Construction, there are codes and standards that ultimately the General Contractor is responsible for, build quality. Each manufacture is responsible for the component they made, to spec and ISO standard for that formfactor.

I mean it works in the Building industry? Could you imagine if GM, FORD, and Chrysler were the only ones allowed to build a home in America?

elliemae says

4X says

elliemae says

I’m proud to be able to remain in the US, unlike the rest of you traitors. HA! I say! HA! HA! HA! I’ll joyfull laugh at all of you as you drive past me, blissfully unaware of your impending deportation, as I continue to remain on a first name basis at the GM dealership repair shop.

Not, GM makes vehicles that are just as sound as Toyota….Cadillac, Buick, GMC, Chevy are some of the most top rated vehicles. It your perception that needs to change…
Cadillac Escalade, CTS have been top rated for the past 10 years now…you just cant afford them and choose to buy Honda, Toyota products.
I wink because i know you own a GM, because you told me so in previous posts.

So - Chevy only builds quality vehicles for the elite? That’s a great business model. Probably what has made them #1.

sorry, that came out the wrong way. I meant that the Cadillac brand is out of a lot of peoples price range. As a doctor, I am sure you can afford one.

...not that you personally are poor. My point is that GM has the right concept with their Cadillac line, now they have to get it right with all others. Pontiac was on track as far as design was concerned unfortunately some smart guy thought to end that line.

4X says

sorry, that came out the wrong way. I meant that the Cadillac brand is out of a lot of peoples price range. As a doctor, I am sure you can afford one.

I'm a medical case manager/Social Worker. Not a doctor. I went to school for 4 years and have practiced for over 20 years, and make less than a graduating R.N. I'm not poor, because accorrding to the 2009 poverty guidelines "poor" constitutes $10,830/yr. However, I don't have the opportunity to do alot of things such as vacation, go out a whole lot, etc. I bought a chevy because that's all I could afford.

To be fair, it appears to be somewhat repaired for the moment. But you get what you pay for. And I did.

Troy says

But just like light manufacturing, much software development can EASILY be exported to low wage areas like India and China, knocking the generous gross margins enjoyed by US-based software developers.

This claim has been debunked so many times it's not even really worth arguing anymore. It's almost always made by people who know absolutely nothing about how software (or really, any technology) is created.

Saying that you can "easily" export a software engineering job is like saying that you can "easily" export a product design job or "easily" export an executive or "easily" export a professional athlete.

People who don't know what they're talking about have been making this claim for over 30 years, and yet software continues to be among the top growth industries (both for employment and revenue) year after year.

Kevin says

The insinuation that “foreign” companies are going to buy up our natural resources and deprive us of them is silly.

It's all about capital flows OUT of the country.

England enjoyed pride of position in the 19th century, US in the 20th. The 21st is up for grabs.

Kevin says

Saying that you can “easily” export a software engineering job is like saying that you can “easily”

I'm looking down the road. Sure it's difficult shifting existing development to India or China.

I just don't see our natural monopoly here. And I've been programming professionally since 1990.

Troy says

England enjoyed pride of position in the 19th century, US in the 20th. The 21st is up for grabs.

Oh, shit, I forgot that every other country was poor in the 19th and 20th centuries. Thanks for reminding me.

Troy says

I’m looking down the road. Sure it’s difficult shifting existing development to India or China.

I just don’t see our natural monopoly here. And I’ve been programming professionally since 1990.

It's not about "shifting development". Any technology company worth the price of the products that they create has offices all around the world. They hire the best people they can find, wherever they can find them.

People who are in the business of creating new technology will never want for work any more than people who are in any other applied creative discipline.

As a country, our concern must be on making sure that we strive to have the best people that we can here -- either by molding our own youth, or encouraging gifted individuals to immigrate here.

You're right that there's no "natural monopoly", but there's no natural monopoly on anything, except for natural resources. Natural resources alone don't make you a rich, prosperous nation. At best they might let you have a quasi dictatorship like Saudi Arabia.

Seriously, I think think it's not so important which industry we're talking about. Autos or software engineering it makes no difference. Anybody who believes other countries can't match or even exceed our technological prowess are only arogantly fooling themselves. When it comes to cars, people the world over love American cars. It's only in America that we percieve them as somehow lacking. I've driven literally thousands of cars, and it doesn't matter which make be it beemer or Benz Toyota Honda chevy or ford, after 15 years they're all becoming pieces of crap. If you are concerned with your image and status you probably drive euros, cause you think that shows you're somehow superior. Me, I drive a 15 year old jalopy cause it gets me where I want to go and it's paid for- and I could care less what you think of that.

But the larger point here is it really doesn't matter which industry it is. It could be autos, tooling, toothpaste, almonds, movies, software, drugs, education, hotels, tourism, literature. The key to get people from other countries to give us their money. Take the Vancouver olympics for example. Now I'm not a skier but I had never heard of whistler before, but I guarantee you that the Vancouver region of Canada will be getting lots of foreign dollars for years because of this exposure. That means more jobs to service the tourists. Now you can argue whether those are less important than 'tech' jobs, but every dollar a foriegner spents there is one more dollar they didn't have before. That's more money for bread, gas, Internet service, travel, to start a new business, etc etc etc. This I where china is kicking the living shit out of us. We've arrogantly decided that we're to good to make things because somehow that's not technologically worthy of us. What a load of pretentious crap. It would be nice to see the majority of stuff you buy say, "made in USA", instead of "made in china."

deanrite says

That means more jobs to service the tourists. Now you can argue whether those are less important than ‘tech’ jobs

Nah, tourism is great. A lot of labor-intensive customer-service, all of it "wealth creation" in the sense that wealth is that which satisfies human needs and wants. We forget that Wealth is also an end -- a condition of happy being -- and not just a means!

Every 767 landing on Maui is carrying 300 or so wallets that are going to dump at least $1000 each into the local economy.

At $30K per job that's 3000 jobs supported by each inbound flight (assuming the economy retained that money for several buy-sell cycles to allow the velocity of money to benefit locals).

I've been thinking of doing a SimIsland-type economic simulation since I am horrified at what Maui's become and think technocratic governance could make that an awesome, self-supporting economy.

deanrite says

It would be nice to see the majority of stuff you buy say, “made in USA”, instead of “made in china.”

Not going to happen as long as factory wages there are $1.17 an hour.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/27/business/global/27yuan.html?adxnnl=1&ref=global&adxnnlx=1267262669-mbJ3g7Ye4pHQ4cKxit1xng

deanrite says

Seriously, I think think it’s not so important which industry we’re talking about. Autos or software engineering it makes no difference.

It makes a *huge* difference. Spending our resources developing new technologies will benefit our society much more than spending our resources making automobiles. Mindless production boosts short-term GDP, but it doesn't provide long term benefits to the society.

deanrite says

ut the larger point here is it really doesn’t matter which industry it is. It could be autos, tooling, toothpaste, almonds, movies, software, drugs, education, hotels, tourism, literature. The key to get people from other countries to give us their money.

Getting people from other countries to give us their money only makes sense if those people have things that we need their money to buy.

deanrite says

Seriously, I think think it’s not so important which industry we’re talking about. Autos or software engineering it makes no difference. Anybody who believes other countries can’t match or even exceed our technological prowess are only arogantly fooling themselves. When it comes to cars, people the world over love American cars. It’s only in America that we percieve them as somehow lacking. I’ve driven literally thousands of cars, and it doesn’t matter which make be it beemer or Benz Toyota Honda chevy or ford, after 15 years they’re all becoming pieces of crap. If you are concerned with your image and status you probably drive euros, cause you think that shows you’re somehow superior. Me, I drive a 15 year old jalopy cause it gets me where I want to go and it’s paid for- and I could care less what you think of that.
But the larger point here is it really doesn’t matter which industry it is. It could be autos, tooling, toothpaste, almonds, movies, software, drugs, education, hotels, tourism, literature. The key to get people from other countries to give us their money. Take the Vancouver olympics for example. Now I’m not a skier but I had never heard of whistler before, but I guarantee you that the Vancouver region of Canada will be getting lots of foreign dollars for years because of this exposure. That means more jobs to service the tourists. Now you can argue whether those are less important than ‘tech’ jobs, but every dollar a foriegner spents there is one more dollar they didn’t have before. That’s more money for bread, gas, Internet service, travel, to start a new business, etc etc etc. This I where china is kicking the living shit out of us. We’ve arrogantly decided that we’re to good to make things because somehow that’s not technologically worthy of us. What a load of pretentious crap. It would be nice to see the majority of stuff you buy say, “made in USA”, instead of “made in china.”

...and again, this is exactly my point. We need to be #1 or a close #2 in all industries. Some here think this is unreasonable but i think that we need those jobs here in the USA. We need to influence all industries to follow our lead in order to maintain our economic stability. Someone stated that when all the electronics manufacturing went over seas that I didnt get the point of the offshoring of this industry....however, we lost 3 million jobs to Japan and China.

those could be American jobs, meaning less unemployment and more money circulating in our economy. Not sure why the statement was made that we dont need that industry let alone the auto industry......maybe we are accustom to unemployment and being under employed.

Your thoughts?

DEY TUK OUR JERBS! - South Park

@kevin

It makes a *huge* difference. Spending our resources developing new technologies will benefit our society much more than spending our resources making automobiles. Mindless production boosts short-term GDP, but it doesn’t provide long term benefits to the society.

I think it was you who stated when Reagan offshored the electronics industry in the 80s that we didnt need that industry, I am sure it has something to do with that 3 sector economy you all were speaking of.

Can you explain your theory on the 3 million jobs lost offshoring the electronics industry and your above statement that we shouldnt focus on manufacturing....I feel that we need to be highly competitive in all industries?

Prove that 3 million jobs were lost by "offshoring the electronics industry" (whatever that is). What was the unemployment rate when Reagan took office? What was it when he left? How many total jobs existed in 1981? How many in 1989?

It is absolutely *IMPOSSIBLE* to be "# 1 or a close #2 in all industries". We don't even have a big enough population to make it possible, even if the entire rest of the planet was filled with idiots.

Furthermore, the idea that we MUST be #1 or #2 to "maintain our economic stability" is absurd. What you really mean is "maintain our economic dominance", which is a stupid objective. The global economy is not a zero-sum game.

Would you rather live in Greece in 700 BC, or in Greece today? After all, in 700 BC Greece dominated the global economy, and was a leader in nearly every industry. Clearly that must have been a better position to be in than their current state as a financially troubled component of the eurozone.

Kevin says

Prove that 3 million jobs were lost by “offshoring the electronics industry” (whatever that is). What was the unemployment rate when Reagan took office? What was it when he left? How many total jobs existed in 1981? How many in 1989?
It is absolutely *IMPOSSIBLE* to be “# 1 or a close #2 in all industries”. We don’t even have a big enough population to make it possible, even if the entire rest of the planet was filled with idiots.
Furthermore, the idea that we MUST be #1 or #2 to “maintain our economic stability” is absurd. What you really mean is “maintain our economic dominance”, which is a stupid objective. The global economy is not a zero-sum game.
Would you rather live in Greece in 700 BC, or in Greece today? After all, in 700 BC Greece dominated the global economy, and was a leader in nearly every industry. Clearly that must have been a better position to be in than their current state as a financially troubled component of the eurozone.

Good points, however, with 15 million unemployed in the US i would have to assume that by inshoring those 3 million jobs would come in handy. This was not meant to prove anything, just a question that I was seeking answers for.

Per Wiki:....we need to take this back.

Due to its high concentration of electronics companies, dominant global market share in electronics, and high quality of its products, Japan is the largest consumer electronics manufacturer in the world. Japanese companies have a reputation for high quality and innovation, having introduced products such as the Sony Walkman and VHS recorder.

Japan's success overpowered the United States consumer electronics industry. Unproved charges of dumping and other predatory practices led to orderly marketing arrangements by Japan in 1977. Restraints limited the export of color televisions to 1.75 million units annually from 1977 to 1980. The agreement gave some protection to the United States' domestic industry. Japanese companies responded by investing in the United States, by the end of the 1980s, only one United States-owned television manufacturer remained.[citation needed] The Japanese electronic industry as a result has maintained its dominance in the market over the United States, and maintained its export strength in this field due to the high reputation of its electronics.

Japan's overseas investment in the consumer electronics industry was motivated by protectionism and labor costs. After three years of voluntary export restraints, seven Japanese firms located plants in the United States by 1980. Japanese firms continued production of the most technologically-advanced products especially in Japan but also U.S., while shifting production of less-advanced products to developing countries, such as Taiwan