patrick.net

Vicente says

Every Tea Party leader or member I’ve seen interviewed, talks about 3 things:
1) Taxes

2) Healthcare

3) Obama=Marxist
If the Teabaggers want to “get out the message” that what they are ACTUALLY about is anti-war, or anti-something-else, well frankly they suck at it. They get plenty of air time to say something different, but the first thing out of their mouths is always that priority list above. Cutting taxes i.e. “starve the beast” is the Republican mantra for about 3 decades now so you can see how people’d get a mite confusified.
If the rank & file are primarily about being anti-imperialist and it’s supposedly a grassroots populist movement, well why they hell are they letting other people speak for them? It’s not that difficult to have your appointed spokespeople mob the camera and shove the loons aside.
Now you can SAY oh it’s a liberal media conspiracy, but is Fox News liberal?

That's all fair and valid.

I'm White and don't care for this administration. While I'm not a Tea Party supporter, and Vincent pretty much sums up Why.

I take it personal that every time people want to discredit a political view, the first thing they do is throw out the race card in which ever way is the most effective. They group all white people and non supporters of this administration into this Ernest Tee Tub queue.

It's dumb, ignorant, and does nothing to engage effective dialog. To say the least, Support a Liberal counter cause.

Tenouncetrout says

I’m White and don’t care for this administration.

Why do you group these together? What do they have to do with each other?

Tenouncetrout says

I take it personal that every time people want to discredit a political view, the first thing they do is throw out the race card in which ever way is the most effective. They group all white people and non supporters of this administration into this Ernest Tee Tub queue.

First of all, the correct way to say this is "I take it personally." You are using the adjective "personal" as an adverb that modifies the verb "to take." The ending to give an adjective to make it an adverb in English is "-ly."

The fact that you take this all very personally should tell you something. Examine yourself. Are you one of those conservatives who are racist? If not, and you are not a Tea Party supporter, then why do you take it personally when people point out that Tea Party demonstrations are 99.9% white and that many of the signs show racist ideas?

Tenouncetrout says

It’s dumb, ignorant, and does nothing to engage effective dialog. To say the least, Support a Liberal counter cause.

And I don't like being lumped into some imaginary conservative/republican/tea-party-goer projection of who they think Liberals are. I have never met the Liberal straw men that the right wingers on this board present and I'm very politically active. So, are you willing to eat some crow and examine yourselves? Or are we still in fear and projection mode?

Yeah OK fancy pantz!

Tenouncetrout says

Vicente says

Every Tea Party leader or member I’ve seen interviewed, talks about 3 things:

1) Taxes
2) Healthcare
3) Obama=Marxist

If the Teabaggers want to “get out the message” that what they are ACTUALLY about is anti-war, or anti-something-else, well frankly they suck at it. They get plenty of air time to say something different, but the first thing out of their mouths is always that priority list above. Cutting taxes i.e. “starve the beast” is the Republican mantra for about 3 decades now so you can see how people’d get a mite confusified.

If the rank & file are primarily about being anti-imperialist and it’s supposedly a grassroots populist movement, well why they hell are they letting other people speak for them? It’s not that difficult to have your appointed spokespeople mob the camera and shove the loons aside.

Now you can SAY oh it’s a liberal media conspiracy, but is Fox News liberal?

That’s all fair and valid.
I’m White and don’t care for this administration. While I’m not a Tea Party supporter, and Vincent pretty much sums up Why.
I take it personal that every time people want to discredit a political view, the first thing they do is throw out the race card in which ever way is the most effective. They group all white people and non supporters of this administration into this Ernest Tee Tub queue.
It’s dumb, ignorant, and does nothing to engage effective dialog. To say the least, Support a Liberal counter cause.

Hi Tenouncetrout:

As a 5th-generation Californian, let me be the first to apologize for the racist statements made on this Forum towards Americans of European descent. My hispanic husband also extends his apologies.

My great-great grandparents came out West via the Oregon Trail to follow the Gold Rush and I can promise you they would be very distressed to learn of the race-baiting and racist statements being publicly flung around by certain individuals who fancy themselves to be better than they really are.

My family moved to SF 110 years ago and so I'm not just some transient or transplant from The Flyover who moved to the East Bay who feels confident in insulting other Americans because they now have a California locale under their avatar.

Just to make things clear and as confirmed by the SF Chronicle:

http://www.burbed.com/2007/12/17/map-of-the-real-bay-area-investor-free

Unfortunately, this situation that you experienced here on this Forum is exactly the main reason why all Californians are perceived to be one way and one way only: the problem is that rudies move here from The Flyover, get a California DL and then proceed to insult everyone else right and left because they feel superior due to their new location.

Hate to break it to these folks, but here's the deal: Californians come in all political shades of blue and red and its SO NOT COOL and NOT CALIFORNIAN to insult *anyone* on the basis of their skin color. Ever.

We are a tolerant bunch, native Californians, and to openly insult someone for their politics is another Big No.

Real Californians do respect all views and I am sorry that someone who just moved here has annointed themself as Keeper of the Flame Eternal for all things political while representing themselves as a "Californian."

When I read the racist comments in an above-post, it seemed like the arrogant opinions expressed by persons who moved to Santa Fe, NM from the MidWest/Rust Belt.

In NM, the NM natives are aware of this situation too: persons from the Midwest or Pennsylvania or Indiana or some other Rust Belt State move to Santa Fe and proceeds with the arrogant attitude cr@p towards everyone else in NM who lives elsewhere, particularly in small towns like Sorrocco or Las Cruces.

Breathtaking level of arrogance and "total-answerism" by these transplants - maybe its just cover for the fact they really come from nowhere town/city and now that they think they've "Arrived" they think they have a license to go out and insult everyone else who they feel fails to meet their standards. Incredible.

~Misstrial (who is a political Independent)

You guys need a map to know where you "Don't" live?

...OK now I understand, carry on then.

Misstrial,

You conveniently forget California history and recent California history. Californians have a history of being racist, homophobic, and xenophobic. Your comments about people who come from "flyover states" illustrates Californian Xenophobia very well.

Here's an example of the historical reaction of California to newcomers of a different ethnic origin:

" "The constitution of California was rewritten in 1879 forbidding any man or woman of "Chinese or Mongolian" ancestry from earning a living by working for a white man. And the legislature delegated "all necessary power" to towns and cities "for the removal of Chinese." The state constitution declared that the Chinese people were "dangerous to the well-being of the State." "

And, of course, we have the modern example of homophobia in the form of writing more discrimination into the California Constitution with Prop 8.

So, get off of your "California is the best" soap box. No one is buying that fantasy here.

Stew a Few already.

Hi "simchaland"

Its no longer, what 1879...get a clue.

Never said that "California is the best" - just that posters like you insult others all the while misrepresenting yourself as a Californian.

Homophobia is all over the country unfortunately. If the politics here in Cali bother you so much, then MOVE to the state that you feel best suits your beliefs!

Thanks! :)

~Misstrial

Misstrial says

Hi Tenouncetrout:
As a 5th-generation Californian, let me be the first to apologize for the racist statements made on this Forum towards Americans of European descent. My hispanic husband also extends his apologies.
My great-great grandparents came out West via the Oregon Trail to follow the Gold Rush and I can promise you they would be very distressed to learn of the race-baiting and racist statements being publicly flung around by certain individuals who fancy themselves to be better than they really are.
My family moved to SF 110 years ago and so I’m not just some transient or transplant from The Flyover who moved to the East Bay who feels confident in insulting other Americans because they now have a California locale under their avatar.
Just to make things clear and as confirmed by the SF Chronicle:
http://www.burbed.com/2007/12/17/map-of-the-real-bay-area-investor-free
Unfortunately, this situation that you experienced here on this Forum is exactly the main reason why all Californians are perceived to be one way and one way only: the problem is that rudies move here from The Flyover, get a California DL and then proceed to insult everyone else right and left because they feel superior due to their new location.
Hate to break it to these folks, but here’s the deal: Californians come in all political shades of blue and red and its SO NOT COOL and NOT CALIFORNIAN to insult *anyone* on the basis of their skin color. Ever.
We are a tolerant bunch, native Californians, and to openly insult someone for their politics is another Big No.
Real Californians do respect all views and I am sorry that someone who just moved here has annointed themself as Keeper of the Flame Eternal for all things political while representing themselves as a “Californian.”
When I read the racist comments in an above-post, it seemed like the arrogant opinions expressed by persons who moved to Santa Fe, NM from the MidWest/Rust Belt.
In NM, the NM natives are aware of this situation too: persons from the Midwest or Pennsylvania or Indiana or some other Rust Belt State move to Santa Fe and proceeds with the arrogant attitude cr@p towards everyone else in NM who lives elsewhere, particularly in small towns like Sorrocco or Las Cruces.
Breathtaking level of arrogance and “total-answerism” by these transplants - maybe its just cover for the fact they really come from nowhere town/city and now that they think they’ve “Arrived” they think they have a license to go out and insult everyone else who they feel fails to meet their standards. Incredible.
~Misstrial (who is a political Independent)

That might take the cake as the most ridiculous post I've ever read on here. And that's saying something..

Actually it cleared alot up for me.

I mean the Bay Area is the antithesis of "Liberalism" and Liberal views.
I find it odd that the very people that chide the rest of the country for barriers, inequality and class barriers , reminds the surrounding cretins they aren't one of "THEM".

Misstrial says

Hi “simchaland”
Its no longer, what 1879…get a clue.
Never said that “California is the best” - just that posters like you insult others all the while misrepresenting yourself as a Californian.
Homophobia is all over the country unfortunately. If the politics here in Cali bother you so much, then MOVE to the state that you feel best suits your beliefs!
Thanks!
~Misstrial

Um yeah, I don't "misrepresent" myself as Californian. I live in Oakland. I'm a Midwesterner at heart and always will be. I would consider it an insult to be called a "Californian" after what I've observed living here for almost 8 years.

The general culture of California is one of the most extremely inhospitable and unwelcoming I've ever experienced in my world travels. This is saying a lot.

I'm proud to be a somewhat open and friendly Midwesterner who isn't trapped by the dogma that passes for "Liberal" and "Conservative" in California. I've also had the benefit of a real education and consider myself very fortunate that I've never had to rely on California public schools for any of my education because this state has the worst educational system in the country. And I'm free from the "I'm so very special" attitude that most Californians seem to exhibit along with strong leanings toward extreme narcissism.

With all due respect, I would never in 1,000,000 years insult myself by calling myself a "Californian." And the only reason why I'm staying among Californians is because I've met enough decent transplants from "flyover" states, as you all call them here, who understand how to be friendly, polite, and foster community. And my Midwestern family moved here too.

I hope that we transplants can educate you narcissistic Californians that superficial materialism and whacked-out ideologies are no replacement for a sense of community and neighborliness.

California isn't a liberal state. It's quite conservative. Even the people who call themselves "liberals" here tend to be quite unbending in their dogma of what it means to be "liberal." True Liberals accept differences and embrace them. California "liberals" have an ideology that excludes anyone who doesn't agree with their brand of "liberalism." California conservatives are just as pathetically attached to their ideologies and can't think for themselves either. I blame it on your education system here. From what I've seen most Californians don't know how to think for themselves.

And no, it's not 1879. It's 2010. It's only 2 years after Californians decided to write bigotry and hate into their constitution yet again like in 1879. So we gays are "partying like it's 1879" all over again thanks to the whack-jobs in this state.

"simchaland"

Can't wait for you to go back to where you came from as I am tired of transients misrepresenting Californians to the rest of America!

Thanks!

~Misstrial

Tenouncetrout says

Actually it cleared alot up for me.
I mean the Bay Area is the antithesis of “Liberalism” and Liberal views.

I find it odd that the very people that chide the rest of the country for barriers, inequality and class barriers , reminds the surrounding cretins they aren’t one of “THEM”.

Yeah, you not "here" until you're "there."

That's the way its always been and always will be. Even the native Chumash had it over the Alikliks of Gorman and Paiutes of the High Desert because they were "coast." LOL

~Misstrial

Misstrial,

I'm here to stay. Get used to it. So, you uneducated, rude, narcissistic, vapid, and rigid Californians may have to learn to become human beings after all.

Good luck. I'm not sure you guys have the capacity for becoming real human beings, but time will tell.

simchaland says

Misstrial,
I’m here to stay. Get used to it. So, you uneducated, rude, narcissistic, vapid, and rigid Californians may have to learn to become human beings after all.
Good luck. I’m not sure you guys have the capacity for becoming real human beings, but time will tell.

Wow.

You just revealed yourself as being everything I posted above.

God help us here in California.

Just remember to stay off the 580 and 880 when you are particularly angry.

~Misstrial

francophile100 says

This thread is really getting stupid. That being said, as a midwestern transplant since 1975, and a survivor of the CA public school system, I’m glad to reside in the “Real Bay Area” LOL

LOL ;)

~Misstrial

francophile100 says

This thread is really getting stupid. That being said, as a midwestern transplant since 1975, and a survivor of the CA public school system, I’m glad to reside in the “Real Bay Area” LOL

Agreed, this thread has gotten quite stupid. I added to it. I guess I felt like being entertained. *sigh*

And I'm proud to live in "Not the real Bay Area." That way I would never have to claim status as a BayAryan, an extremely crippling condition, to be sure. *wink*

Misstrial says

simchaland says

Misstrial,
I’m here to stay. Get used to it. So, you uneducated, rude, narcissistic, vapid, and rigid Californians may have to learn to become human beings after all.
Good luck. I’m not sure you guys have the capacity for becoming real human beings, but time will tell.

Wow.
You just revealed yourself as being everything I posted above.
God help us here in California.
Just remember to stay off the 580 and 880 when you are particularly angry.
~Misstrial

Oh, and one other thing... You people can't even drive. Did any of you get anything out of Driver's Ed or did they cut that from your educational system too along with geography, history, physical education, art, music, philosophy, civics, and political science?

simchaland says

Misstrial says

simchaland says

Misstrial,

I’m here to stay. Get used to it. So, you uneducated, rude, narcissistic, vapid, and rigid Californians may have to learn to become human beings after all.

Good luck. I’m not sure you guys have the capacity for becoming real human beings, but time will tell.

Wow.

You just revealed yourself as being everything I posted above.

God help us here in California.

Just remember to stay off the 580 and 880 when you are particularly angry.

~Misstrial

Oh, and one other thing… You people can’t even drive. Did any of you get anything out of Driver’s Ed or did they cut that from your educational system too along with geography, history, physical education, art, music, philosophy, civics, and political science?

OMG "you people" - LOL

Keep it up, just keep it up! I'm sure readers are getting some laughs at your expense now. LOL

~Misstrial

Wow, you must be too narcissistic to see that even I'm laughing at my own posts, and yours too. Do you actually think I put any weight on your opinions? And do you seriously think that I think so much about myself that I take my own posts as seriously as you do?

^^now trying to rewrite history^^ LOL

(btw, Due to your meltdown, you've shot any future opportunity on this Forum to pass yourself off as being a tolerant liberal.)

~Misstrial

Misstrial says

^^now trying to rewrite history^^ LOL
(btw, Due to your meltdown, you’ve shot any future opportunity on this Forum to pass yourself off as being a tolerant liberal.)
~Misstrial

LOL, you think so, don't you. But alas, you are proving my point with every post you make. The difference is that I don't particularly care about what my reputation is on some obscure forum on the Internet using a pseudonym. I think I expressed elsewhere around here that I'm here for entertainment. I like political dialogue and economics. Sometimes both kinds of discussions happen here. Other times, it's just about entertainment. This thread? It's mostly entertainment. Not much of substance happening here...

This is turning into a Teapartiers Hell!

Tenouncetrout says

This is turning into a Teapartiers Hell!

Should we start singing "Kumbaya" and "We Shall Overcome" while enrolling everyone in a nationalized health care system? Would that finally make it into a Teapartier's Hell? LOL!

I can throw in bank bail outs and anti-gun laws to seal the deal, if you'd like.

RayAmerica says

Wow! What horrible anti-American concepts! It is terribly anti-American to be against war and imperial expansionism.

Anti-American? Of course not, silly. It's RACIST!

Nomograph says

Misstrial says

Can’t wait for you to go back to where you came from as I am tired of transients

Do you blame her too for your inability to afford your Malibu Barbie dream house? I’m just curious.

I don't blame anyone for anything that I have or don't have. I got to play with the Malibu Barbie dream house all I wanted with a girlfriend I had growing up. I even have a "Jewess Barbie" that a boyfriend bought me when I turned 30 along with a giant Barbie sheet cake. "Jewess Barbie" came with dark brown curls and a silver and blue ballroom gown. So, I don't lack for anything Barbie.

Oh, I'm sorry, I was mistaken. LOL! I was entertained though. And by the way, I'm a dude! Huh?! What? Yeah, it's true. I'm a gay dude.

I didn't realize that MissPrincess didn't get her Malibu mansion that she worked so hard to get but didn't because of the evil Baby Boomers. Hmmm, come to think of it, that's another critique I have of Californians. Not only do they seem to think that each one of them is so very special, they also believe that the world owes them because, well, they said so... LOL!

simchaland says

Oh, I’m sorry, I was mistaken. LOL! I was entertained though. And by the way, I’m a dude! Huh?! What? Yeah, it’s true. I’m a gay dude.

A gay dude with a jewess Barbie? Did she have mini-plastic surgery scars? If not, she's not a real jewess Barbie and you got taken...

I lost the meaning of the thread somewhere around Misstrial's rant.

Misstrial says

Real Californians do respect all views and I am sorry that someone who just moved here has annointed themself as Keeper of the Flame Eternal for all things political while representing themselves as a “Californian.”

"Real" Californians? What a crock! A "real" Californian is someone who lives there. If you move there, you're a "real" Californian & certainly don't have to be there 110 years to prove it. And there are horrible racists bigots who've lived there many years and people who moved there recently who are wonderful and tolerant of others. Even gay dudes with fake jewess Barbies (no offense, Sim - but as a jewess we actually drew little scars on our Barbies so they'd look like our mommies) can be considered "real."

I'm woefully lost on this one, but

Misstrial says

^^now trying to rewrite history^^ LOL
(btw, Due to your meltdown, you’ve shot any future opportunity on this Forum to pass yourself off as being a tolerant liberal.)
~Misstrial

...is one of the oddest comments here.

elliemae says

simchaland says

Oh, I’m sorry, I was mistaken. LOL! I was entertained though. And by the way, I’m a dude! Huh?! What? Yeah, it’s true. I’m a gay dude.

A gay dude with a jewess Barbie? Did she have mini-plastic surgery scars? If not, she’s not a real jewess Barbie and you got taken…

Wow, I guess I did get taken. Well, at least I dumped his ass shortly after, so I feel better about it now. lol

I lost the meaning of the thread somewhere around Misstrial’s rant.

You too? I thought it was just me.

Misstrial says

Real Californians do respect all views and I am sorry that someone who just moved here has annointed themself as Keeper of the Flame Eternal for all things political while representing themselves as a “Californian.”

“Real” Californians? What a crock! A “real” Californian is someone who lives there. If you move there, you’re a “real” Californian & certainly don’t have to be there 110 years to prove it. And there are horrible racists bigots who’ve lived there many years and people who moved there recently who are wonderful and tolerant of others. Even gay dudes with fake jewess Barbies (no offense, Sim - but as a jewess we actually drew little scars on our Barbies so they’d look like our mommies) can be considered “real.”

Damnit! I was trying to avoid being labeled a "Californian." It's so demeaning and insulting. Alas, you do have a point. I'm a California resident and all. And I guess I've lived here for 8 years. So, my claim to still being a Chicagoan or Midwesterner still might be as fake as my Barbie. Damnit! BTW, did I mention that I dumped his ass?

I’m woefully lost on this one, but
Misstrial says

^^now trying to rewrite history^^ LOL

(btw, Due to your meltdown, you’ve shot any future opportunity on this Forum to pass yourself off as being a tolerant liberal.)

~Misstrial

…is one of the oddest comments here.

Darn, and I was so looking forward to infiltrating Conservative Headquarters. I've always wanted to play with a life-sized Barbie and I hear they have a big one there from Alaska who was a beauty queen!

Yes - you mentioned the dumping. But you sound a little wistful - is it because you weren't left with a realistic Barbie, or that at least he got one with color-coordinated shoes?

Sorry, but you are a "real" Californian. I, too, am one - even tho I don't live there any longer. I was born there, lived there the first part of my life, have family that goes back to the 1920's... But I'm also a real Utahn... I just realized something:

My name is Elliemae, and I'm a real American - even if I can't see Russia from my house.

Yeah, she's all plastic looking 'n stuff (so there's some resemblance to the women in my family) but there are no scars and the shoes don't match the bag. I got really gypped. And you know what's even worse? She didn't come with a real 3 carat diamond ring! The nerve!

Damn, now do I have to start eating Real Happy Californian Cheese from Real Happy Californian Cows?

And didn't you have to become a Mormon, or rather a LDS, to become a resident of Deseret, um, I mean, Utah?

And you must be waaaaay more "Real Californian" than me since you have family that goes back to the 1920's here. I have family who were here in the 1930's and then family that settled here later in the 1960's to stay permanently. But by Missthang's definition, you're waaay more Californian than me.

Not LDS. Never considered converting. Depending upon where you live, people are very tolerant of your choice to remain a heathen. Utah, the only state where a Jew can be a gentile.

You obviously didn't catch my diatribe on the definition of a "real" Californian. Let me put it in simple terms - you live there, you're real. You can eat whatever cheese you would like, but please don't cut the cheese in front of a plastic woman. She lacks the ability to wrinkle her nose, making her an unhappy cow.

That was udderly ridiculous. I hope you don't have a beef with that comment. Where's Mikey when we need him?

simchaland says

And by the way, I’m a dude! Huh?! What? Yeah, it’s true. I’m a gay dude.

Is it too soon into Simcha's coming out party to start making jokes like...gay dude + grizzly bear avatar = hilarious joke?

We could really use Mikey right about now.

CBOEtrader says

Is it too soon into Simcha’s coming out party to start making jokes like…gay dude + grizzly bear avatar = hilarious joke?
We could really use Mikey right about now.

Mikey's intervention here would be a hairy post for sure, and I'm not sure that I'd be able to bear it.

I'll meet you all at the Lone Star in SOMA for a drink after work.

[Somalia is] so perfect for the Baggers — they are anti-government; there is NONE— thus, no taxes — strict adherence to the Right to Bear Arms; everyone has RPGs and automatic rifles and grenades

HAW HAW, YUCK YUCK, you really showed them wingnuts with that analogy. The US is funded by Al Queda terrorists, just like Somalia.. and the "Baggers" oppose law enforcement and national defense, right? With such a close correlation to Tea Bagger utopia, we should rename Somalia to be 'Baggerstan'. HAW HAW

Tea Party detractors use simpleton analogies like this all the time: "If you oppose massive government interference in health care and banking, you must therefore oppose ALL govt". Tiny little minds

What is this obsession with disparaging those who choose to link themselves with the Tea Party? Are we supposed to believe that it is impossible someone oppose the recent Health Care Reform bill unless that person is a racist. If that is the case, then I guess Mish (who Patrick links to frequently) is secretly a member of the KKK. If a person believes taxes are too high, does that mean the person supports a return to slavery? I don't understand the logic behind the invective. Are there people out there holding horrible signs? I'm sure there are, just as there are people protesting at the funerals of dead marines. Am I to assume that since there are religious wackos protesting at marine funerals, this means that all people who oppose the war in Iraq do so because they believe God is punishing this country for homosexuality? If a person happens to agree with the Taxed Enough Already idea, why shouldn't they go out and make their voices heard? There are currently people making their voices heard in Illinois asking for higher taxes; let them have their say, listen to what they say, and debate them on the merits of their arguments. If their arguments have no merits, their influence will be short-lived and negligible.

As much as it might pain people on both sides to admit it, there are logical people on each side of these debates. Plato and Aristotle had differences of opinion, does this make one of them a fool or illogical? And crazy as this may sound, pointing to the behavior of Congress or Presidents does not invalidate the arguments of the layman. Just because Bush wasted a lot of money does not mean that every conservative supported that waste, and ignoring an argument by referring to actions in the past (that individual voters have pretty much no control over) is not a way to prove a point. So to argue that Obama spending trillions of dollars on something is unimportant because Bush also spent trillions ignores the fact that there are a sizable number of people who didn't like when Bush did it and still don't like it when Obama does it. When you consider the approval ratings for Bush in his second term, it seems fair to say that a lot of the people not happy with Obama weren't happy with Bush either. It is not an either/or situation. Nor does misrepresenting the positions of a movement do anything to discredit that movement. For example, to label the Tea Party as "anti-government" shows little critical thought. As far as I can tell, the movement is anti-taxes and government spending, which is hardly to be "anti-government." The Federalist and the Anti-Federalists got into similar arguments, and neither side was "anti-government." Each side views the role of government differently (and there are certainly members of the Tea Party who are anti-government, just as there were anti-government anarchists among those who protested the Iraq war, every movement will attract its share of extremists), and each side often has history on its side. If it were as simple as many people would like to make it out to be, there would be no disagreement. If all economists agreed that stimulus spending was the way to handle recessions, then that is what we would do. If everyone agreed that the costs of having overseas military bases was not offset in some way by perceived security interests, then we would close our bases. The key is to engage people and discuss situations, so that maybe one day we can agree. It serves no purpose to issue blanket statements like Obama is a a Socialist without offering examples, just as it serves no purpose to issue blanket statements such as those who believe Obama is a Socialist don't understand what Socialism is without backing it up by offering a justification for the statement. Part of the problem is that not even experts can agree on what constitutes Socialism, so almost everyone is working from a different definition (and dictionary definitions are frequently awful considering most dictionaries omit corporatism as an aspect of Fascism). It doesn't help that the USSR itself did not fit the dictionary definition of Socialist or Communist, nor did Mussolini's Italy. When the average person calls someone a "communist," they don't mean the word in the same way that Marx would have meant it, and to not recognize the eccentricities of language leads to semantic arguments that don't advance the discussion. If we can't agree on what Socialism is, obviously we won't agree on whether or not Obama is a Socialist. If I had my way, we would drop the use of labels such as these entirely; Socialist is about as useful a label as Neocon is at this point, since somehow in common conversation Neocon has lost its original meaning of a pro-military, ostensibly fiscally conservative but socially liberal individual.

The real question is this: what is added to the political discussion by posts such as this one? All this seems to indicate is that there are people who have already made up their minds about the potential validity of any argument the other side makes, which continues to contribute to the polarized nature of national politics, and the illusion that every issue is a blanket split between Right and Left. To attempt to construct a typical conservative is going to be a difficult prospect, because there are so few issues that all conservatives agree on that not everyone agrees on (pretty much the only issue likely to get 100 percent support from all self-identified conservatives is a distaste for wasting money, but my guess is that liberals don't particularly care for wasting money either; and not all conservatives agree on what constitutes wasting money anyway). I would argue that no political affiliation is more split than "conservative" when you consider the fact that cultural conservatives and libertarians disagree on almost all social issues. It's about as futile to call someone a conservative as it is to attempt to discern what or what does not make someone a real Californian (especially considering the majority of the country considers to self-identify as conservative, yet the supposedly liberal Democrats continue to win elections, and it is a fair guess that Obama must have attracted some self-identified conservatives to vote for him).